Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

[Keltest]

Keltest is saying that again and again.

Correct. Her ability to use the orbs do accomplish any given task within their sphere (heh) is, so far as we have seen, absolute. It Just Works for her. Building other skills and discipline is a much more useful way to spend her time.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, there's no point in training with the orbs unless she's planning on soloing another spaceship. She has very few productive hours in the day and is months behind the rest of her recruit class in every subject.

[Traab]

Yeah, there's no point in training with the orbs unless she's planning on soloing another spaceship. She has very few productive hours in the day and is months behind the rest of her recruit class in every subject.

I disagree, strenuously. Her ability to use the orbs is so far guesswork and the most basic level possible. She needs extensive orb training to learn exactly what they are capable of, their limits, new ways to use them that she doesnt have to come up with on the fly. The entire reason she is a PART of ARCSWAT is due to her orbs. She needs to master them or else she will be flailing around and hoping she helps more than hinders. We see plenty of clips of the various other trainees practicing with their powers such as ren trying to hit maxima. Thats because he needs to learn what his limits are, and how best to use them, in order to be truly effective in the field. Just being able to activate them isnt enough any more than knowing that using a sword is "pointy end goes into the other guy" makes you a swordsman or qualified to fight with one. Sydney does have a lot of qualifications she has to earn, im not denying this, but her powers are a major factor in her job and they cant just leave it at "She knows what direction to point them in 9 times out of 10"

[Keltest]

I disagree, strenuously. Her ability to use the orbs is so far guesswork and the most basic level possible. She needs extensive orb training to learn exactly what they are capable of, their limits, new ways to use them that she doesnt have to come up with on the fly. The entire reason she is a PART of ARCSWAT is due to her orbs. She needs to master them or else she will be flailing around and hoping she helps more than hinders. We see plenty of clips of the various other trainees practicing with their powers such as ren trying to hit maxima. Thats because he needs to learn what his limits are, and how best to use them, in order to be truly effective in the field. Just being able to activate them isnt enough any more than knowing that using a sword is "pointy end goes into the other guy" makes you a swordsman or qualified to fight with one. Sydney does have a lot of qualifications she has to earn, im not denying this, but her powers are a major factor in her job and they cant just leave it at "She knows what direction to point them in 9 times out of 10"

They did that already, remember? Her shield, her lighthook, her flight orb, the pool bit where she discovered the air-generating power... Weve already had comics where they experiment with them to find their limits.

But once her limits are known, theyre just known. It isnt a muscle she can train every day to build, she cant push the limits to make them stronger. Absent a level up, a process they still have no ability to control, her strength stays where it is. Hence training sydney instead, who they can improve on in known and controlled ways. Bonus points for not requiring massive property damage.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, note Ren is getting powers training after months of classroom instruction on everything else. Again, Sydney is so far behind she probably hasn't even reached 'submit application' levels of competence. At this point, Sydney isn't remotely a viable member of a professional law enforcement agency. She's more of a vague notion of what a future candidate could be.

{{Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if she needs to retake some of her high school classes, particularly in STEM fields. It's hard for ADHD types to do well in a class that requires focusing for prolonged periods, and Sydney is well past the 3 sigma point for ADHD.}}

[Traab]

They did that already, remember? Her shield, her lighthook, her flight orb, the pool bit where she discovered the air-generating power... Weve already had comics where they experiment with them to find their limits.

But once her limits are known, theyre just known. It isnt a muscle she can train every day to build, she cant push the limits to make them stronger. Absent a level up, a process they still have no ability to control, her strength stays where it is. Hence training sydney instead, who they can improve on in known and controlled ways. Bonus points for not requiring massive property damage.

Her shields testing involved a few punches in the interview room, a few blasts at the bomb range and some ad hoc testing of things like how long can she fly people in the shield before air is an issue. Her flight orb testing was basically "Lets see your current top speed" and nothing else. The pool test was, i dont even recall what the purpose of chaining her underwater was, but either way, the enviro orb was a lucky accident and again, not much testing after that. "Oh, it makes air, neat"

Testing her shield orb should involve seeing how accurate she is at putting it up, like, can she just create it to engulf certain other people with her? Does she have to manually expand it from personal pan size afterwards? Does the size effect its durability? What does it stop and what does it NOT stop? Ie radiation, lasers, sonic weapons, other forms of teleportation than harems.

Take her flight orb. Pre recent boosts, they could have had her perfecting her high speed maneuverability with obstacle courses (you know with the number of fliers they have flight based obstacle courses) as well as reaction times. We learned that holding the flight orb gets rid of vertigo effects, does it also speed up her reaction time so she doesnt plow into pedestrians at mach 4? if not, then how fast can she go safely with human reaction times?

Again, we have had the loosest possible test of her orbs and training in how to use them. Sydney has done more training with them on the job than at base. She is literally figuring it all out as she goes.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So we need to test Sydney's ability to use the orbs in a long-term continual focus exercise, when she is frequently shown to be unable to get through a short conversation without being distracted twice. It almost sounds like they need to run her through some kind of exercise program to teach her to focus and pay attention and make decisions under pressure first.

Oh, wait, that's exactly what they're doing right now.

[Traab]

So we need to test Sydney's ability to use the orbs in a long-term continual focus exercise, when she is frequently shown to be unable to get through a short conversation without being distracted twice. It almost sounds like they need to run her through some kind of exercise program to teach her to focus and pay attention and make decisions under pressure first.

Oh, wait, that's exactly what they're doing right now.

I like how you pretend that all she has to do is qualify with a gun and she will somehow master the use of her orbs through gun magic. I have already, repeatedly, agreed that this gun training is important for a variety of reasons. That doesnt replace her needing actual thorough training in the use of her various orbs. We have seen very little actual training with her orbs, a brief overview of what they do at the surface level "Fly orb lets me fly" and everything else has been discovered by luck in mid battle. Thats not a good thing.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That's more of a resounding criticism of Archon's habit of tossing Sydney into combat situations than anything else. Or more accurately, a criticism of Dave being so focused on Sydney he puts her in combat scenes she has no business being in just because she has the PC Glow.

If I'm being honest, I don't even want to see Sydney at the firing range right now. She's so far behind on everything, and weapons are not the first, second or even fifth thing they teach you in boot camp for a reason.

[Max_Killjoy]

If Archon wants to attract the people with the most useful and effective powers, it can't treat everything like a traditional military organization with "recruits" and "boot camp" and so on.

Were I writing this story, I'd be planning an arc where someone with massive superpowers but no desire or inclination to join a military organization was unwillingly caught up in a situation where they had to use them in immediate defense of others, and put the organization through the wringer between someone who argued that their powers had been used to stop a crime under "good Samaritan" laws, and a hardline prosecutor out to make an example of them under the "no vigilantes" law. And the fact that joining Archon is joining the military would become a point.

[Traab]

That's more of a resounding criticism of Archon's habit of tossing Sydney into combat situations than anything else. Or more accurately, a criticism of Dave being so focused on Sydney he puts her in combat scenes she has no business being in just because she has the PC Glow.

If I'm being honest, I don't even want to see Sydney at the firing range right now. She's so far behind on everything, and weapons are not the first, second or even fifth thing they teach you in boot camp for a reason.

Too be fair, the vast majority of her combat situations have not been anticipated. The super brawl was an ambush by vehemence at their dinner party, then you had sciona attacking the twilight council that she only went to because she could see through the veil and max felt this would be the simplest way to inform her in a way that wouldnt cause issues, then of freaking course she gets the stakeout spot that turns out to be scionas base. The vault was again a noncombat mission they needed her for transport. And by the time the sciona take down mission happened sydney had proven useful and effective. That was probably the one real objectionable scenario they put her in. As for not wanting her on the range, meh, she has been through plenty of pt, and sat through at least a few lectures, plus, she had to earn her way to holding a gun by learning how to take apart and assemble one as well as reading all the safety (slightly modified for humor) manual for guns. So I think she has covered most of the other important stuff pre guns. So I have no real objection to the timing of her training, just the lack of focus on the other stuff she really should be training with.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Sydney should not have been anywhere near the TC meeting. First rule about keeping a secret: don't tell anyone who can't keep a secret. All she needed to be told was what Dabbler had already told her to cover the Veil, and to go read the next chapter on warrants law.

Attached to that, she shouldn't have been out examining possible lairs. She should have been back at base studying warrants law.

Without the need to manufacture a reason to bring Sydney along, the trip to the Black Reliquary happens some other way. Probably just a portal. Sydney contributed nothing useful there besides an on-going distraction.

Without her involvement in all of the above, there's no reason to include her in the raid on Sciona's base. Achilles can sweep for traps just by walking down the hall. Max can show her own tactical skill in the fight with Sciona without an assist from Sydney. And you don't have the Sydney in space arc to drag in another twenty plot elements when we haven't even managed to properly deal with one.

And then there's the whole club thing with the Patreon cameos. Again, Sydney should be on base trying to catch up her course work, and maybe actually get some sleep. That whole scenario was perfect for showing us how Arc-Light works and giving them a chance to strut their stuff, Sydney was not needed.

But Sydney got shoved into all of those scenarios, because she has the PC Glow and has to be the center of attention at pretty much all times.

[HandofShadows]

You are forgetting that one of Sydney's orbs can punch through the Veil and she would see all the supernatural entities and aliens on the planet. If you don't tell her about things like that and tell her to shut up about them she is certainly going to do something very obvious and cause a LOT more trouble than being irritating.

[lord_khaine]

If Archon wants to attract the people with the most useful and effective powers, it can't treat everything like a traditional military organization with "recruits" and "boot camp" and so on.

Were I writing this story, I'd be planning an arc where someone with massive superpowers but no desire or inclination to join a military organization was unwillingly caught up in a situation where they had to use them in immediate defense of others, and put the organization through the wringer between someone who argued that their powers had been used to stop a crime under "good Samaritan" laws, and a hardline prosecutor out to make an example of them under the "no vigilantes" law. And the fact that joining Archon is joining the military would become a point.

I do agree. And i do think i would like to read that story arc.

It does seem like this is kinda neglegting that unlike a traditional military organisation, there are -extremely- stiff competition for any of its recruits.
Even someone like Heatwave should basically be able to go whereever she want to. And more or less write her own salary check. Since her ability is close to being litterally unique as far as we know.
Just for a start, im quite certain Deus could deliver a competitive offer, without boot camp.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You are forgetting that one of Sydney's orbs can punch through the Veil and she would see all the supernatural entities and aliens on the planet. If you don't tell her about things like that and tell her to shut up about them she is certainly going to do something very obvious and cause a LOT more trouble than being irritating.

Dabbler already dealt with that. There are some creatures here as tourists, they use illusions to not freak out the locals, don't blow their cover. What else would you need to say?

Plus, again, Sydney should be in basic, not running around on a club crawl.

[sihnfahl]

Plus, again, Sydney should be in basic, not running around on a club crawl.

Sydney, in her state, shouldn't even be in basic.

She'd need to be in pre-basic to get her to minimum physical standards. Girl's a beanpole whose only claim to fame was the element of surprise against a trained military guy who described her flailing punches as 'butterfly farts'.

[Keltest]

Sydney, in her state, shouldn't even be in basic.

She'd need to be in pre-basic to get her to minimum physical standards. Girl's a beanpole whose only claim to fame was the element of surprise against a trained military guy who described her flailing punches as 'butterfly farts'.

AFAIK she's unique in being a super without being in peak physical condition. They may legitimately not have any actual specific physical standards for the program given that it was previously shown to be part and parcel with being a super. Absent any specific time pressure, they may just be working on the idea that the standard physical conditioning that everybody does will bring her up to scratch.

[HandofShadows]

There is more than one way to hurt someone to hurt someone than punching them.

[sihnfahl]

Absent any specific time pressure, they may just be working on the idea that the standard physical conditioning that everybody does will bring her up to scratch.

Which is where they have gone from the get-go. She couldn't do even the basics for long. At the very least, get her so she doesn't pass out trying to do a 100 meter dash. Strike that, a 10 meter dash.

There is more than one way to hurt someone to hurt someone than punching them.

Which was my point. The first was against a mugger who was just relying on intimidation, and the second was a surprise ... that didn't make her, as Maxima pointed out, immune to the gun his partner was holding.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah. If that had been a real bank robbery Sydney would have been an example of why you don't do anything but lay down and keep quiet. Probably a fatal example.

And even with her space tech glasses Sydney only managed to 'kill' her target once. And it looks like her attempt at aerial gunfights got her brains splattered, so fly and shoot is not something she can do. Personally, I suspect she phased out again until the paintball splatted her goggles.

[lord_khaine]

Sydney, in her state, shouldn't even be in basic.

Yes she should not be in basic at all, for the simple reason they are not training her to be a soldier
Case in point on it not being nececary. Untrained Sydney is still around 3 power levels higher than the most trained normal human Archon has.
And even a power level above a lot of well trained supers.
(absolutely not counting Math as normal in any way).

Which was my point. The first was against a mugger who was just relying on intimidation, and the second was a surprise ... that didn't make her, as Maxima pointed out, immune to the gun his partner was holding.

The first one we dont have anything factual about. Except a police report who only says "the humanity"

and the second was a surprise ... that didn't make her, as Maxima pointed out, immune to the gun his partner was holding.

Indeed. No amount of training will ever do that for her. Unlike her orbs.

And even with her space tech glasses Sydney only managed to 'kill' her target once. And it looks like her attempt at aerial gunfights got her brains splattered, so fly and shoot is not something she can do. Personally, I suspect she phased out again until the paintball splatted her goggles.

Im usually one of the first to be critical of Sydney. But thats unfair. The only reason i can see for the lines is that Sydney was playing with the gun.
And i guess drawing on the target. Even then she "kill" the target twice with 2 lines drawn across its "head"

As for giving her grief for losing at paint ball?
Good grief! she was playing against Max and Cora by the look of it.
Personally i do approve 110% of arieal paint ball. If Sydney isnt good at flying and shooting human sized targets, then its absolutely an ability she should practice some more.

[Forum Explorer]

Max most likely has her own training area to work in, sydney could be sent there to train with her orbs. I agree that the chance of her needing to use a gun is incredibly low as any scenario when a gun is the weapon of choice is one where arcswat probably wouldnt be involved anyways. That being said, i do agree with the idea of training her on using one as it does have a lot of carry over effects that will likely help her with her orbs and general behavior in the field. The fact that using her orbs seems to translate into leveling up somehow does mean that it would be very very wise to give her extensive orb training and theorycrafting sessions, however, training her with guns removes all need for experimenting and guesswork. They know how guns work, they know what you can do with them, and have spent decades mastering how to train you properly in using them. This is not the case for her orbs which are incredibly mysterious in function and thus not easy to codify a list of training strategies to get the most out of them as its mostly guesswork at this point. When you clear a course in 4 minutes with a handgun you can say "Thats good enough to pass." With the orbs? They dont have a baseline to work with or any real knowledge of how good she CAN get with them, so its hard to tell what the "good enough" level would be as they wont know without extensive training till she stops improving at all what the reasonable level of accomplishment would be.

I get the feeling the reason dave is focusing on guns instead of orbs right now is for the sake of relatable humor, as a lot of readers have experience either in military or gun use in general, and thus can grin at the stuff sydney is going through and dealing with. Also, I dont think dave wants to focus on establishing sydney as a super badass at this point in the story, which would happen as we see her master her orbs. Qualifying with a handgun is meh on the power scale. Watching her teleblast her way through a course like an unholy melding of nightcrawler and cyclops would make her seem a little less like the zany girl we all know and tolerate and more like maxima 2.0.

See that makes sense, both in and out of the comic. Seeing how accurate Sydney is on a baseline level of a gun is valuable to know how well trained Sydney actually is. And keeping the story relatable is a good reason to go over all this stuff in comic rather than having it be background information.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The issue isn't losing, it's that they found it expedient to target her goggles. At least when I played, that was a major no-no since the projectile can go through the lens and destroy the eye.

And yes, much better to train her with paintballs than with the PPO, where a miss will continue downrange until it destroys a suburban housing development. And that goes quintuple for Cora and her personal load out of WMDs.

[lord_khaine]

The issue isn't losing, it's that they found it expedient to target her goggles. At least when I played, that was a major no-no since the projectile can go through the lens and destroy the eye.

Likely not an issue with miliatry issued googles.

Also kinda an assumption that someone specifically targeted her head.
Instead of just randomly hit there while firing at a moving target in a 3d enviroment.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And Sydney goes freak out over something minor again. She is very consistent in misreading pretty much any situation not involving comic books.

[Keltest]

And Sydney goes freak out over something minor again. She is very consistent in misreading pretty much any situation not involving comic books.

Lets be fair, once youve been flung into the future of another planet, a certain amount of healthy uncertainty about what could or could not be happening is kind of reasonable. She's still overreacting, but she's seen some stuff and apparently has some legitimate hauntings from it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That point might hold water if she hadn't been doing that from the get go (BindiGate, anyone?).

[Forum Explorer]

And Sydney goes freak out over something minor again. She is very consistent in misreading pretty much any situation not involving comic books.

It is an admittedly silly joke. I'm more annoyed at how irrelevant it is, considering it doesn't forward anything. Well that and they've both done the joke before, and better.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Frankly, given 2020, it would've been better for Sydney to go 'Crap!' and bubble herself to avoid getting sneezed on. Kind of a parallel to the CW's Heroes Wear Masks campaign.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Ooh, a Princess Bride quote, and not from the resident geek.

And I'm calling it right now, bringing Cora will prove to be a mistake.