Civilization: How to make it happen under the sea.

[Max_Killjoy]

Energy generation from deep sea vents would be fairly easy, their civilizations might be more focused around those to begin with. Even if all they get out of it is the turning of simple watermill designs that would still be a lot of utility.

Electricity I don't think would be as easy, wiring would be a lot more difficult to build and maintain there. On the other hand radioactive materials are a lot safer, so if they get a hold of uranium they could use it more freely.

What are they building the "ventmill" blades and mechanicals out of?

What useful things are they doing with the uranium or other radioactives? How are they getting them in the first place?

The problem is, you provide unproved statements claiming they are surely true. It is only natural and even constructive to examine those statements using the knowledge we have. The fact that there is not enough data to definitely prove or disprove the possibility of underwater space-faring civilization should not stop us from getting a better perspective with what we have and we have quite a lot of knowledge to work with.

This back and forth is also why I hoped for this thread to focus more on how instead of if. This way we can approach an impossible goal in workable steps and we all can contribute whether we believe in space octopi or not.

Indeed, when someone says "but they could do X", it's an entirely fair response to ask "how could they do X?"

Having those questions labelled logical fallacy in retort makes me wonder just what sort of a conversation is going on.

[Tvtyrant]

What are they building the "ventmill" blades and mechanicals out of?

What useful things are they doing with the uranium or other radioactives? How are they getting them in the first place?

Driftwood, coral, volcanic rock, same stuff we used I imagine.

Same way we did, sacrificing poor people with shovels until you have a decent supply. Utility is probably localized boiling, the material being so hot.

[Lord Torath]

Driftwood, coral, volcanic rock, same stuff we used I imagine.

Same way we did, sacrificing poor people with shovels until you have a decent supply. Utility is probably localized boiling, the material being so hot.

You could even "grow" blades the same way mollusks and bi-valves grow shells. It'd be slow going, but it could be done.

[-D-]

We understand your point, were just saying its incorrect. This isn't a video game, simply having stone age tech doesn't magically unlock the next step in a tech tree. It needs to actually be used to create that next step. Stone age people used fire to shape metals and otherwise refine materials that allowed them to do more things than they could before.

And I disagree. Useful energy is just exploiting an energy differential somewhere. There are plenty of those around.

Hydrothermal vents produce sulphur in quantities dense enough to turn the surrounding water to hydrosulphuric acid.

Yet, there is still life surrounding these vents (some of which octopi). Which implies, the situation is definitely not as dire as you are presenting it. Plus not all vents are located that deep.

Meteorites do hit the ocean, yes. At which point they shatter into dust

That's not a completely accurate description, depending on size, they shatter but not all parts are dust-like particles. I assume the size and shape of debris would change depending on size and composition, speed and angle of impact.

You need to already know about mechanical energy and have a use for it before harvesting it becomes worthwhile. When we did the first part is not recorded, but it took millennia before we started using it for grinding grain (using animals--wind and water came much later). And you don't have a way to store it until you crack several advances in chemistry and materials science

I don't really care about time scales. As for advances in chemistry/material science, would depend, but there are primitive ways of storing energy. One primitive way would be to store it as kinetic energy (i.e. weights lifted and then dropped again to "release" said energy). Much better way would be using said energy to construct a drill or something. Compressed water is another possibility, but probably requires a different set of materials for the container, pump and the hose.

No you couldn't. Buoyancy rates change with every atmosphere of pressure, which changes about every ten meters.

So? Build a structure with different buoyancy rating for each ten meters? Or separate structure for each atmosphere of pressure?

What useful things are they doing with the uranium or other radioactives? How are they getting them in the first place?

Fission emits heat, that means temperature differential. Once you have that, you can create kinetic energy.

Funny or not, there are even spontaneous fission cores underground, nothing logically prevents one such spontaneous fission core from exposing itself underwater.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Other than the water rapidly cools it below the point where it can sustain the reaction. There's a reason we use water to drown a reactor gone awry.

But again the question of "HOW?" is raised for so much of this. Oh, we'll just drop rocks to generate energy. Great. How are you raising the rocks? How much energy are you expending to raise said rocks? How much are you getting back? (We know these answers, because of ballistics. Friction absorbs most of the energy of a falling object, and that's with air, not water which is much denser. So again, the net energy budget is negative and you'd be better off not doing that). Deep sea ventmills are not a new idea either. The 'atmosphere' is corrosive enough to destroy everything mentioned except the obsidian. There's also the small issue of how you'll get it installed when working in temperatures where the water is kept from boiling only because of the pressure. Oh, and sulphur is super-poisonous to most octopi, too, so you need hazmat suits first.

[Tvtyrant]

Other than the water rapidly cools it below the point where it can sustain the reaction. There's a reason we use water to drown a reactor gone awry.

But again the question of "HOW?" is raised for so much of this. Oh, we'll just drop rocks to generate energy. Great. How are you raising the rocks? How much energy are you expending to raise said rocks? How much are you getting back? (We know these answers, because of ballistics. Friction absorbs most of the energy of a falling object, and that's with air, not water which is much denser. So again, the net energy budget is negative and you'd be better off not doing that). Deep sea ventmills are not a new idea either. The 'atmosphere' is corrosive enough to destroy everything mentioned except the obsidian. There's also the small issue of how you'll get it installed when working in temperatures where the water is kept from boiling only because of the pressure. Oh, and sulphur is super-poisonous to most octopi, too, so you need hazmat suits first.

Limit the amount of water inside a rock container? How to get radioactive elements to be hot isn't a difficult issue.

The biggest issue is breathing, otherwise just using leather will get you through it. Humans have worked with just as toxic materials with almost no starting tech; quicksilver as the bed for glass comes to mind.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So, how are you going to tan leather beneath the sea? Granted you will use fish skin (which is much more delicate, but I don't know if that would change from an air environment to an oceanic one), but how will you do it? You can't exactly dip it in vats of urine and dog feces, and I'm fairly sure attempting brain tanning will fail as well.

[Radar]

Yet, there is still life surrounding these vents (some of which octopi). Which implies, the situation is definitely not as dire as you are presenting it. Plus not all vents are located that deep.

Life around the vents is highly specialised to live there and would die in any other place. The same goes the other way around. The difference in chemical balance is far worse then between sea and fresh water. So yes, you do need a hazmat suit. My best bet would be to build the watermill far away and drag it in from afar. The extremely corrosive conditions would still be an issue. Frankly, I was pondering, if it were possible to use sea currents for the watermills and build something like a wind farm we use. True, the speeds are way lower then for typical winds, but at the same time water is much denser then air, so it could potentially generate a decent output - especially if local topography would amplify the flow speed like in a strait.

The biggest issue is breathing, otherwise just using leather will get you through it. Humans have worked with just as toxic materials with almost no starting tech; quicksilver as the bed for glass comes to mind.

We have it actually easy, since air is not that good of a solvent, so we are better isolated from the problematic substances. Would leaher survive being submerged in a hot sulfuric acid? Temperature might be even more of an issue then the chemicals. By the way: using molten metal as a bed for making smooth glass sheets is a fairly new invention as far as I know.

[Tvtyrant]

So, how are you going to tan leather beneath the sea? Granted you will use fish skin (which is much more delicate, but I don't know if that would change from an air environment to an oceanic one), but how will you do it? You can't exactly dip it in vats of urine and dog feces, and I'm fairly sure attempting brain tanning will fail as well.

Easiest way is to make a driftwood barrel out of high tannin plants and push as much of the bark as you can into the barrel. I don't know if any sea plants have high tannin content, but wet wood notoriously leaks its tannins into the water around it. Sharks also contain massive quantities of urine, so that is another possible solution.

We have it actually easy, since air is not that good of a solvent, so we are better isolated from the problematic substances. Would leaher survive being submerged in a hot sulfuric acid? Temperature might be even more of an issue then the chemicals. By the way: using molten metal as a bed for making smooth glass sheets is a fairly new invention as far as I know.

Seems like float glass was invented further on then I realized, so that objection is removed.


Edit: It would make this a lot easier if we started with a particular biome and species and then worked up from there. It has to be a good sized octopus and one that lives in coral or kelp; open environments means they are going to get hit by whales and sharks constantly. Human predators topped out at bears, having an Orca as a competitor makes spears pretty weak. They also can't throw very well, being underwater and not having human arms.

I'm going with coral. Does the Octopus use tools to dig the coral out of its rock/shell for food or does it herd reef animals?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Coral are microscopic. And many species that lair in coral are toxic for some reason (although that could just be an extension of "Australia: Oh God Why?"). Best guess would be to read up on octopi and figure out where they live in sufficient density as to get a leg up on that whole 'communicating information' thing. Tricky bit is that this means you will have many widely dispersed populations, since they'll be separated not just by deep water but also by the land.* Once we have a biome with attendant species, we have a better idea of what they have to work with as they go from Paelolithic to Mesolithic (that is, animal taming).

Random addendum: You all remember how -D- pointed out that a lot of getting where we are is luck? As an example, we still have no idea how humans figured out copper smelting. We know about where they did (a couple mountain chains with deposits near the surface and nasty earthquakes), we know about when (circa 8000 BCE), but we have no idea how. Current best guess is some rocks with copper ore were included somehow in a cremation. Campfires don't generate the heat needed to melt ores, but a human body?


*another advantage us land dwellers had--it's easier to get around and spread ideas.

[lord_khaine]

Thinking about it, im actually doubtful if this society will even be able to progress past stone age level.
Since im not certain if its possible to produce the correct amount of kinetic energy for stoneworking,
beneath water and without a skeleton.

[Radar]

Easiest way is to make a driftwood barrel out of high tannin plants and push as much of the bark as you can into the barrel. I don't know if any sea plants have high tannin content, but wet wood notoriously leaks its tannins into the water around it. Sharks also contain massive quantities of urine, so that is another possible solution.

Still, fish skin is very thin. Not sure how good it would be as a material.

Seems like float glass was invented further on then I realized, so that objection is removed.

I just looked it up and te first commercially viable method for this was developed in the late 50's of the last century. First patents for float glass are a bit over 100 years older then that, but were unworkable at the time.

Edit: It would make this a lot easier if we started with a particular biome and species and then worked up from there. It has to be a good sized octopus and one that lives in coral or kelp; open environments means they are going to get hit by whales and sharks constantly. Human predators topped out at bears, having an Orca as a competitor makes spears pretty weak. They also can't throw very well, being underwater and not having human arms.

Yeah, this is a good anchoring point for the discussion. Makes sense to focus like that. The size difference might actually work to the advantage of the octopi: orcas would have a tendency to just swallow them whole, so a trained octopi in a life or death situation could use a spear iside orca's mouth to stop the swallowing first and do some serious damage second.

Does the Octopus use tools to dig the coral out of its rock/shell for food or does it herd reef animals?

I think the only edible part of coral is the living part, so you do not have to dig for it. Herding animals is for sure on the table and tools will have many uses and before animal husbendry there will be hunting for sure - it is only natural to develop some equipment for that first.

[Xyril]

I would probably look at coral reefs and something like the Cuddle Fish. They are intelligent, they have the reef for structures and materials, and they could easily farm shrimp, fish or the coral itself. A cuddlefish with a knife or spear could deal with most of the reef predators, and they are social animals so they can pass on traits.

I think you're thinking of "cuttlefish." Cuddle fish died out centuries ago because they were too complacent about not actually mating all that often.

And I disagree. Useful energy is just exploiting an energy differential somewhere. There are plenty of those around.

While that's technically true, it's also a bit of a meaningless statement. You could have a forest full of magical, thermodynamics-violating perpetual heat source, but if that heat source is 40 degrees C, you'll never boil water, or start a fire--particularly if your forest is under water.

There are a lot of cool lifeforms exploiting forms of energy that we once never imagined could be used to sustain life, so I certainly would never say it's impossible that there are mechanisms we never imagined that could be used to build up to comparable technology to our own, but entirely underwater. However, in terms of our understanding of science now, we don't even have a vague hunch of a mechanism for replicating any of the major steps towards modern technology in an entirely underwater setting.

The most viable idea--which others have mentioned in some form--is that an underwater, intelligent race advances enough to start making regular visits to the land. There, they can start conducting the sorts of experiments they need to develop a better understanding of physical laws--much like how we go to space to use the micro-gravity environment for experiments we can't do on Earth, but on a massive scale.

Yet, there is still life surrounding these vents (some of which octopi). Which implies, the situation is definitely not as dire as you are presenting it. Plus not all vents are located that deep.

Yes, and that life is very cool. However, it doesn't mean that this particular form of energy lends itself to any sort of the manufacturing required to developed advanced technology. You can make a thermal lance using pasta or pastrami. Orange juice is like pasta and pastrami in that, strictly speaking, it can power your metabolism and sustain human life. However, it's perhaps an insurmountable challenge to use orange juice to power a thermal lance--particularly under water.

[-D-]

While that's technically true, it's also a bit of a meaningless statement. You could have a forest full of magical, thermodynamics-violating perpetual heat source, but if that heat source is 40 degrees C, you'll never boil water, or start a fire--particularly if your forest is under water.

Cool. Give me a forest of temperature differentiation and I'll show you usable work energy. BTW how do you think oceanic currents and winds are formed? Boiling water? Magic? Aliens? Etherium causeways? No. They are formed from extremely large bodies of air/water at relatively minor 30-50 temperature differential.

Boiling water is great because the phase transition probably makes for more efficient energy transfer. Nothing says you HAVE TO use boiling water to work, at least not at a primitive stage we are talking about.

The most viable idea--which others have mentioned in some form--is that an underwater, intelligent race advances enough to start making regular visits to the land. There, they can start conducting the sorts of experiments they need to develop a better understanding of physical laws--much like how we go to space to use the micro-gravity environment for experiments we can't do on Earth, but on a massive scale.

I'm not against this idea. After all, they are known to eat birds occasionally and even go on land.

Yes, and that life is very cool. However, it doesn't mean that this particular form of energy lends itself to any sort of the manufacturing required to developed advanced technology. You can make a thermal lance using pasta or pastrami. Orange juice is like pasta and pastrami in that, strictly speaking, it can power your metabolism and sustain human life. However, it's perhaps an insurmountable challenge to use orange juice to power a thermal lance--particularly under water.

Missing the point of my quote. Here. Someone claimed that PH of the water around deep-sea vents was essentially acid. I noted crabs and octopi live around it, so it's likely octopi might be able to descend down there physically (after all, one of its close ancestors did).

[Keltest]

Cool. Give me a forest of temperature differentiation and I'll show you usable work energy. BTW how do you think oceanic currents and winds are formed? Boiling water? Magic? Aliens? Etherium causeways? No. They are formed from extremely large bodies of air/water at relatively minor 30-50 temperature differential.

Boiling water is great because the phase transition probably makes for more efficient energy transfer. Nothing says you HAVE TO use boiling water to work, at least not at a primitive stage we are talking about.

Ok. How do you propose to harness this energy with stone age tech?

[-D-]

Ok. How do you propose to harness this energy with stone age tech?

I already explained. Sea current mills. Create something wheel-like, attach some flat surfaces to create like a turbine and transfer rotational energy using ropes (made out of seaweed and pliable stuff).

Perhaps you could store energy in some form of buoyancy storage (i.e. fill a bladder or similar with air), then use work of turbines to lower it, so once released the buoyant part tries to surface up and thus generate energy.

[Keltest]

I already explained. Sea current mills. Create something wheel-like, attach some flat surfaces to create like a turbine and transfer rotational energy using ropes (made out of seaweed and pliable stuff).

Ok, and how do you do this with stone age tech? Whats holding it all together? Also, my understanding of deep ocean currents is that there would only be highly specific zones where this would even be possible, since you need a current strong enough to move your wheel, while also being right on the edge of said current to allow the wheel to rotate.

[-D-]

Ok, and how do you do this with stone age tech? Whats holding it all together? Also, my understanding of deep ocean currents is that there would only be highly specific zones where this would even be possible, since you need a current strong enough to move your wheel, while also being right on the edge of said current to allow the wheel to rotate.

They obviously build some kind of structure or use existing ones currents would shape. There are other possible sources of kinetic forces. As for the specifics, that's getting into too minute of details, but to speculate a twig like piece of coral, holding several clamps, while stuck between two rocks with holes in it.

How did first human melt copper, again?

[DeTess]

How did first human melt copper, again?

Native copper could, if I understand correctly, just be fashioned into crude tools without any advanced processing, but was mostly used as a rock substitute in tools or from ornaments. Around 6000BCE or so the early humans figured out how to seperate copper from ores using charcoal furnaces. Source

[-D-]

Native copper could, if I understand correctly, just be fashioned into crude tools without any advanced processing, but was mostly used as a rock substitute in tools or from ornaments. Around 6000BCE or so the early humans figured out how to seperate copper from ores using charcoal furnaces. Source

Sure, but how do you get copper from copper ore?

[DeTess]

Sure, but how do you get copper from copper ore?

Those furnaces I mentioned before. The link explains it.

edit: or by finding native copper, which I mentioned before as well, which is pretty much copper forming as a pure mineral.

[lord_khaine]

And what is all this going to help?
At the most it might be possible to construct some sort of underwater windwill.
But what is it going to do? At best it will provide a minor amount of mechanical energy.

[Brother Oni]

Sure, but how do you get copper from copper ore?

To clarify a bit on DeTess's comments, copper is unreactive enough to be found in its metallic state naturally and can be cold worked to a hardened state (thus can hold an edge).

There's a reason why the Chalcolithic era follows on from the Neolithic.

However whether copper can be cold worked underwater due to the increased resistance of the medium over air is questionable, especially by an organism that can't generate the same physical forces as something with a rigid endoskeleton to support the muscles.

There's also the issue of sudden impacts generally being bad for cephalopods; they use haemocynanin for their main oxygen carrying molecule. These precipitate out of their haemolymph under kinetic stress, which is just asking for the equivalent of a stroke - since smithying is nothing but repeated impacts, I can foresee it being regarded as hazardous occupation with as short a lifespan as those early smiths working with arsenical bronzes.

[-D-]

And what is all this going to help?
At the most it might be possible to construct some sort of underwater windwill.
But what is it going to do? At best it will provide a minor amount of mechanical energy.

I dunno. But useful energy is useful energy, whether they use it to grind something down or to store it in some other way.

Those furnaces I mentioned before. The link explains it.

edit: or by finding native copper, which I mentioned before as well, which is pretty much copper forming as a pure mineral.

Ok, you have melted copper and slag now what? How would you separate it? Also, native copper is relatively rare, copper is mostly found as some form of ore. Sure, you can make a couple of knives and a hammer, but that's not bronze age technology yet, is it?

[Keltest]

I dunno. But useful energy is useful energy, whether they use it to grind something down or to store it in some other way.


Ok, you have melted copper and slag now what? How would you separate it? Also, native copper is relatively rare, copper is mostly found as some form of ore. Sure, you can make a couple of knives and a hammer, but that's not bronze age technology yet, is it?

Theoretically, once its all in a liquid state, the different densities should cause the slag and the metal to separate naturally. Depending on how pure you want your copper (they were probably not terribly precise at the time) its just a matter of crafting your furnace (or whatever youre heating it in) in such a way as to let the slag and other impurities get out in a different direction from the liquid metal. Depending on the composition of the slag, it could also have a different melting point, so you could simply melt the copper (or impurities) while leaving a mostly solid mass of slag to be tossed out later.

[DeTess]

Ok, you have melted copper and slag now what? How would you separate it? Also, native copper is relatively rare, copper is mostly found as some form of ore. Sure, you can make a couple of knives and a hammer, but that's not bronze age technology yet, is it?

Here you go. It's got some stuff on early iron age techniques too. Have fun reading.

Edit: Also, might I suggest googling this kind of stuff? That's the nice thing about the modern internet. Even if I don't know exactly how something works, I can find an explanation from someone who does, assuming I'm not just making stuff up :p

[lord_khaine]

I dunno. But useful energy is useful energy, whether they use it to grind something down or to store it in some other way.

Useless energy meanwhile, remains useless.
Im not certain its possible to stonework under water (ever tried to punch while submerged?)
And storing energy is kinda advanced technology.

[-D-]

Useless energy meanwhile, remains useless.
Im not certain its possible to stonework under water (ever tried to punch while submerged?)
And storing energy is kinda advanced technology.

By useful energy I mean energy that can be converted to useful work.

I'm fairly certain it's possible to do stonework, just not by banging rock on rock. A strong enough jet of water can used for drilling, or you find some piece of rock/coral, that has a suitable holey piece of coral.

Here you go. It's got some stuff on early iron age techniques too. Have fun reading.

Edit: Also, might I suggest googling this kind of stuff? That's the nice thing about the modern internet. Even if I don't know exactly how something works, I can find an explanation from someone who does, assuming I'm not just making stuff up :p

Interesting read. Thank you.

Now explain how one would manufacture ceramics needed, and the fire needed to create them and the clay, and the discovery of fire Also explain how iron age human will be able to create complex machinery needed for space race, using only technology available to an iron age human. I'm kidding ofc, but try to put yourself in my shoes.

Sure I'm "making stuff up", but within the confines of physics that contorts to our own. If I were just making stuff up on the spot, I'd add magic and voila. Octopi now have psionic attacks, that can crush rocks and levitate matter without any weight restrictions, and open time and space portals without any considerations for FTL. Wham. Instant space faring civilization. You can skip over stone age and metal age. Space is first and only destinations.

[Lord Torath]

I'm not certain its possible to stonework under water (ever tried to punch while submerged?).

Getting back to using pistol shrimp as tools. They could hammer your copper or stone for you. You know, assuming you can communicate what you want them to do. I don't think you could easily scale up the process, though. I'm pretty sure the increase in size would too greatly increase the drag to maintain that super-sonic cavitating strike. Actual worked copper would be really rare. There's no way to refine it underwater, so you'd be stuck with what you find.

The windmills (okay, current-mills) could be used to power grinding stones, assuming you can get some durable belts or gears. Belts could be made from woven kelp. Do we need to pound the kelp fibers? It could initially be done with rocks at the surface, similarly to the way sea otters crack open seashells on their chests, and could be powered by "windmills" after they get set up.

Could you use windmills to coldforge the copper? If you could get grinding wheels spinning, you could theoretically put two opposite-spinning wheels close to each other, and feed the copper between them. I just don't know if you could build sufficiently strong mounts for those rollers to match the forces required to forge or extrude the copper between them using driftwood or whale bone.

[-D-]

Getting back to using pistol shrimp as tools. They could hammer your copper or stone for you. You know, assuming you can communicate what you want them to do. I don't think you could easily scale up the process, though. I'm pretty sure the increase in size would too greatly increase the drag to maintain that super-sonic cavitating strike.

What if instead of using pistol shrimps as tools, you focus octopus natural squirt gun? Perhaps you could use a suitable enough piece of stone to focus the jet into a stronger one?

Another thing to keep in mind there are certain types of silkworms that produce natural waterproof glue. You could grow them for silk and glue, you then use to create roles/glue.