OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

[amanamana]

I know people already ran over that guy's (or gal's) argument about the way things went against the vampires as a whole, but there's something bugging me about people arguing about that Belkar waking up scene since it was first shown. When I read it the first time I could immediately see how it went up by 3.5 rules, as depicted in the OotS "campaign setting", but was not bored enough to post it until now.

This is how I interpreted that scene:

First of all, it's established in OotS that a "Protection from Alignment" spell causes physical discomfort in anyone of that same alignment if they're target by the spell. Know-it-all-Roy even made a remark about it a few strips before (can anyone spell foreshadowing?). Second of all, it's also established that Belkar's clasp is activated by rubbing it. Not a command word, spell trigger or something else, but rubbing it. Third, Roy was already shown to use nonlethal damage to take someone out when he was not willing to kill them (POW) and we can see it does not leave extra injury signs on the target. It was also already established that Roy could give Belkar a good WUNK with power attack and hit.

So, battle against the vampires start and Belkar is one of the targets of a Mass Inflict Serious Wounds and later a Mass Cure Light Wounds, which probably did not cure all the damage, considering the latter uses less dice. Either way, he then later takes a hammer to the face from Minrah, resulting in some more regular damage (and I'm only concerning myself with on-screen parts of the battle, but Belkar may have been damaged off-screen against the spawn). Then comes Roy and gives him a THUNK and a WHAP, that I read as 2 nonlethal damage power attacks, because it shows consistency with what is established.

As we can see in the 3.5 SRD, you "do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious." So, Roy likely inflicted enough nonlethal damage that it equaled Belkar's current hit points, that were down from "real" damage, making him unconscious. OK, he falls. Later, Mr. Scruffy starts rubbing against him, as cats are wont to do (I reffuse to show you links of cats doing this... this is the internet, google it. Maybe 1/3 of the internet is cat videos). The next strip, the rubbing reaches the neck and the clasp, which in turn activates. Belkar is now protected from evil, which wards a creature (...) from mental control, which suppresses the vampire's dominate person and also hurts a lot, as already established multiple times. The pain wakes him up. He is pissed. He likely activates his Barbarian's Rage (a free action), which only makes sense, as he seems to be royally pissed (RAAAARRRRGH!!!!).

OK. "In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains (...) a +4 bonus to Constitution (...). The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level." Now, his hit points just went up by 2 times his level, which likely increases his hit point total above his nonlethal damage. If that's the case, he can act normally. "Entering a rage takes no time itself", which means he can immediately join the battle again, taking the gloating and blood sucking vampires by surprise.

Geez, that was long-winded and completely unnecessary, but I had to take it off my chest. I'll return to lurking now.

Cheers.

[OracleofWuffing]

It came to mind that, even with the dominated members of the council no longer dominated and the entire council being witness to vampires being dusted in sunlight, technically speaking, the council still has to appoint an inquisitor to investigate the matter of half the council being dominated by vampires.

[Rogar Demonblud]

At the very least I think it would have delayed Durkon who I'd expect would stop to dispel the domination and prevent a mid to high level fighter from going on a rampage against his own family.

No it wouldn't. That'd go something like:
Gontor: *Dominate*
Logann: *swirly eyes*
Gontor: Betray your family and kill them.
Logann: *snap*
Logann: NO.
Logann: *attack vampire*
Gontor: Unholy Hel, that hurts!

[a_flemish_guy]

Gontor was murdered in the process of him carrying out his duties as a Cleric, which is the only reason he bothered to speak privately with Durkon* at all. He wasn't having a random conversation; he was specifically trying to gain an ally that would further his Church's desire to gain political standing in future Godsmoots. I think that falls under an "honorable" death, regardless of him being caught by surprise during his murder.

he was also killed while in the process of collaborating with the #1 dwarven enemy, I can't think of a way in which that isn't dishonorable

also I think a key element is that you have to be aware that there's a chance you can die and still do it, which is why durkon's dad died honorably and the miners didn't at first

[Ruck]

I'd say that walking around doing your job when BAM! you die isn't honorable (and several people agree with me), though it appears to not be as conclusive as I thought.

I don't think it's "BAM! you die" when you're attacked by someone, especially when that someone is the High Priest of Hel and you're doing your duty so that the Gods can hold a Godsmoot.

I think some of y'all have a definition of "combat" that's way too stringent.

[Aetius]

No, she conceded every dwarf not previously contested whose soul was currently in her domain who died in the past year. Any she'd argued & won previously, along with those whose souls were not currently there - including Gontor, whose soul was trapped in the Exaargh - were not involved in her "shut up and go away" concession.

You are partly correct. I omitted the "previously challenged" bit.

Thor challenged the disposition of all dwarven souls not previously challenged who died the last year. Hel conceded.

It's reasonable for you or Hel to assume that means the souls currently in her domain since probably you wouldn't usually challenge the disposition before it's even enacted. But this was a special deal and clearly not done in the usual way. And only regarding souls present at her domain is simply not what was said.
And it's one of this book's main themes that reasonable assumptions mean nothing when contradicted by poorly worded legal shenanigans.

I find it unlikely that Gontor's disposition already got challenged. Because again: doing it before he even arrives wouldn't be the usual way to do things.

The important question is how disposition is decided upon. So who is judging the souls and when does that happen. Because if judgment is rendered when the soul arrives you would be right and my whole argument collapses.

But it has been established that Hel has default custody of all dwarven souls. The one's who die with honor have been explicitly ruled to be an exception even though they are the majority. So I believe once a dwarf dies the disposition happens by default and Thor has to argue every single dwarf who dies with honor - even though many of those are open and shut cases.

Of course that's speculation based upon speculation but I like Gontor's odds better than Hilgya's

No it wouldn't. That'd go something like:
Gontor: *Dominate*
Logann: *swirly eyes*
Gontor: Betray your family and kill them.
Logann: *snap*
Logann: NO.
Logann: *attack vampire*
Gontor: Unholy Hel, that hurts!

We're talking about whether or not it would have been a good idea on the vampire's part to try and use domination.
So that additional save would only be relevant if the vampires saw it coming - which I doubt they would have. They are not good at understanding empathy and emotional bonds.

But if they did see it coming instead of not using domination they could simply phrase the command differently. Like "guard the door and don't let anyone enter after me except Sandy and Curly".

I'm not even sure he would get another save either way.
The members of the order tried to kill each other just fine although they are pretty close. Logann might be even closer to his extended family but is that enough?
Ho Thanh got another save because he was a palading and killing his own liege wasn't just against his conviction but against the rules of the game. Also his enemy was a helpless octogenarian who didn't do anything while Logann is confronted by an armed mob trying to force it's way into the council chamber where they usually would have no right to enter.

[Schroeswald]

he was also killed while in the process of collaborating with the #1 dwarven enemy, I can't think of a way in which that isn't dishonorable

also I think a key element is that you have to be aware that there's a chance you can die and still do it, which is why durkon's dad died honorably and the miners didn't at first

I can! Trying to get someone to work with you politically isn’t dishonorable, at least as long as you don’t break your code in giving something to them.

I don't think it's "BAM! you die" when you're attacked by someone, especially when that someone is the High Priest of Hel and you're doing your duty so that the Gods can hold a Godsmoot.

I think some of y'all have a definition of "combat" that's way too stringent.

From what we saw HPoH cast silence, then Gontor tried to run away (you can tell because he’s turned around as Greg bites him), and then he’s vampired, that may not equal BAM! you die, but I want to see your definition of combat that would include it.

[Messenger]

he was also killed while in the process of collaborating with the #1 dwarven enemy, I can't think of a way in which that isn't dishonorable

also I think a key element is that you have to be aware that there's a chance you can die and still do it, which is why durkon's dad died honorably and the miners didn't at first

Non-vamp Gontor was collaborating with the enemy in the same way that every soldier who doesn't attack their enemies on sight at a neutral, peaceful meeting is a traitor to their military.

NVG* wasn't collaborating with Hel or Greg. As head of the Creed of Stone administering to the Godsmoot as a neutral party, it was his job to show people in even if their religion was an enemy of the Creeds or a metaphysical and theological threat to his own race.

Furthermore, as far as NVG knew, the Godsmoot was a place where all gods and goddesses were supposed to be represented, but Hel was not for lack of her own clerics. When Greg showed up- an actual High Priest of Hel- he was just following what Godsmoot was supposed to be about.

Nor was his hope that Greg's representation would help the Creed of Stone's cause itself malicious or dishonorable. He just wanted his own religion to have representation.**

It wasn't collaboration because he had no idea Greg and Hel were making their big play to claim all dwarven souls. That's in fact why he was taken by surprise when Greg attacked him ("Excuse me? What does-").

The question is whether the lack of struggle and swiftness of his death constitutes a death without honor. That's a question for Thor and Hel to thresh out and- given that NVG had no protection from the Godsmoot's rules and the deities represented there (his religion lacking one) and no spells left with which to sufficiently struggle against Greg- I'd say it's not so clear cut against him.

* Maybe we should give a name to vamped Gontor like we did with Durkon (Greg)? It'd be easier to type out to specifiy him, and it's kinda unfair for the name "Gontor" to refer more to the vampire than the original dwarf, given how The Giant handles vampirism in the OotSVerse.

** Which makes me wonder who the Creed of Stone would channel in the Godsmoot. The Elemental Plane of Earth itself? The most powerful Elemental who rules that plane like the chief Dao?

[Fyraltari]

Maybe we should give a name to vamped Gontor like we did with Durkon (Greg)? It'd be easier to type out to specifiy him, and it's kinda unfair for the name "Gontor" to refer more to the vampire than the original dwarf, given how The Giant handles vampirism in the OotSVerse.

I find Roy's solution the best in writing. That would make them Gontor and Gontor*.
You can also call him Gontor Hammerfallen, the Ex-exarch, the exarch of Hel or the Exaargh.

Which makes me wonder who the Creed of Stone would channel in the Godsmoot. The Elemental Plane of Earth itself? The most powerful Elemental who rules that plane like the chief Dao?

Gontor could have believed that elemental force he worships was able to channel it's opinion through him (part of believing in something in general) or that a method for including non-theistic religions could be implemented by the gods (he wanted Hel to raise the issue on his behalf and didn't think he could talk directly to Odin during the moot).

As I see it, Gontor would have thought that he could convey a consensus opinion from the lesser elemental beings that granted him spells. Sort of like a moot within a moot. He would argue that as quasi-divine beings, they deserve a say in what is decided. However, it is also possible that he has never actually been allowed to witness the Godsmoot and therefore his understanding of it is less than perfect.

[Schroeswald]

* Maybe we should give a name to vamped Gontor like we did with Durkon (Greg)? It'd be easier to type out to specifiy him, and it's kinda unfair for the name "Gontor" to refer more to the vampire than the original dwarf, given how The Giant handles vampirism in the OotSVerse.

** Which makes me wonder who the Creed of Stone would channel in the Godsmoot. The Elemental Plane of Earth itself? The most powerful Elemental who rules that plane like the chief Dao?

Ignoring any and all real points made in this post for the asterisks. I believe vamped Gontor is known as the Exarch of Hel (a title he had at the time of death), more comparable to the High Priest of Hel but it something.

Headcanon(ish): The creeders would be worshipping Gaia if the Eastern Pantheon still existed, but you know, they sort of can’t.

[Riftwolf]

Headcanon(ish): The creeders would be worshipping Gaia if the Eastern Pantheon still existed, but you know, they sort of can’t.

Headcanon: when the Creeders die, they end up in front of Sif, who tells them next time cut out the middleman.

[danielxcutter]

Headcanon: when the Creeders die, they end up in front of Sif, who tells them next time cut out the middleman.

I dunno, Sif kinda seems Good-aligned while the Creed looked roughly TN-ish to me.

[mjasghar]

Where is this idea that Gontor would have regarded HPoH as the enemy from?
An elemental cult tends to be neutral - earth tends to lawful neutral
Seeing as how he has already greeted representation from other evil Northern gods why would he regard Hel’s rep differently?
In fact it’s likely he would see such as a new factor who could help get his cult representation because Hel hasn’t had representation before either

[Squire Doodad]

I dunno, Sif kinda seems Good-aligned while the Creed looked roughly TN-ish to me.

I mean, we saw them doing stuff for like 5 pages before they all got vamped. Gontor seemed friendly enough, and while TN would be fitting for a Godsmoot that has representatives from all sides, I'd say either LN or LG. They used their entire allotment of spells for something brief just so that they would be good hosts.

[Skum_Overlord]

Bye bye Gontor! That's what you get for being prejudice for locked doors!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That anecdote from the first panel is absolutely golden. Of course Durkon would be like that, even as a child. Also, makes sense that throwing the hammer up also served the purpose of giving the dwarves a way to destroy Gontor* and the other vampire.

Also, I love everything about that last panel.

I don't think it's "BAM! you die" when you're attacked by someone, especially when that someone is the High Priest of Hel and you're doing your duty so that the Gods can hold a Godsmoot.

I think some of y'all have a definition of "combat" that's way too stringent.

Yeah, it’s tough for me to see a way in which Gontor didn’t die in combat.

[Fyraltari]

Where is this idea that Gontor would have regarded HPoH as the enemy from?
An elemental cult tends to be neutral - earth tends to lawful neutral
Seeing as how he has already greeted representation from other evil Northern gods why would he regard Hel’s rep differently?
In fact it’s likely he would see such as a new factor who could help get his cult representation because Hel hasn’t had representation before either

His religion is not everything about him. He is a dwarf, that alone makes Hel his ennemy.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I find Roy's solution the best in writing. That would make them Gontor and Gontor*.
You can also call him Gontor Hammerfallen, the Ex-exarch, the exarch of Hel or the Exaargh.

Also Gonetor. I prefer Exexarch myself, but Gonetor is easier to type.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Also Gonetor. I prefer Exexarch myself, but Gonetor is easier to type.

Grey Wolf

Oh yeah, forgot that one. Gonetor Hammerfallen.

[The Aboleth]

In fact it’s likely he would see such as a new factor who could help get his cult representation because Hel hasn’t had representation before either

This is exactly why I think Gontor died with honor: He died while in pursuit of an honorable goal (attempting to get his faith officially recognized in the Godsmoot). If he wasn't trying to accomplish that goal, he wouldn't have insisted on speaking to Durkon* privately.

[Keltest]

This is exactly why I think Gontor died with honor: He died while in pursuit of an honorable goal (attempting to get his faith officially recognized in the Godsmoot). If he wasn't trying to accomplish that goal, he wouldn't have insisted on speaking to Durkon* privately.

I'm not sold on that. How he died was entirely unrelated to his goal and attempts to get Hel on board with his plans. The only connection is that his actions at the time made it easier for him to be murdered. Frankly, I think a stronger argument would be that he died in combat with a vampire. Theres never been any indication that competency was a necessary component of honor.

[mjasghar]

His religion is not everything about him. He is a dwarf, that alone makes Hel his ennemy.

Citation needed
All dwarves may be sacred of going to Hel but there’s nothing I’ve seen that says they regard her as a racial enemy

[factotum]

It came to mind that, even with the dominated members of the council no longer dominated and the entire council being witness to vampires being dusted in sunlight, technically speaking, the council still has to appoint an inquisitor to investigate the matter of half the council being dominated by vampires.

They'd already decided to do that after the outcome of the world-ending vote, though, so that has to happen first. Once a suitably sized tree is found to make a new table, at any rate.

[The Aboleth]

I'm not sold on that. How he died was entirely unrelated to his goal and attempts to get Hel on board with his plans. The only connection is that his actions at the time made it easier for him to be murdered. Frankly, I think a stronger argument would be that he died in combat with a vampire. Theres never been any indication that competency was a necessary component of honor.

I feel that how he died is directly related to his goal--if he didn't have the goal, he'd have (probably) felt there was no reason to talk to Durkon* privately.

Was it a poor decision to willingly stroll along, alone, with a powerful vampire? Undoubtedly. Was it an ever more poor decision to casually tell that vampire you were out of most of your spells for the day? You bet! But it was also a poor decision for Roy to jump on the back of a flying zombie dragon and engage a powerful lich in melee combat atop said dragon, yet he did it anyway--and (more to my point) the Deva processing Roy admitted they didn't punish people for making poor decisions (can't link the comic at the moment, but I think she said something like "We don't punish people for making mistakes in their judgment of what is best in any given situation ").

So I believe Gontor's death was directly linked to his (I am assuming) honorable goal of getting representation at the Godsmoot for his Church. That being said, it seems you and I are arriving at the "honorable death" conclusion via different routes, and I agree that regardless of my points you also have a good one in that no matter what the death was via combat. So it's probably a MOOT* point anyway.

*I know, I know. I'll see myself out.

[Fyraltari]

Citation needed
All dwarves may be sacred of going to Hel but there’s nothing I’ve seen that says they regard her as a racial enemy

They may not be her ennemies but she is definitely theirs. She tortured them for-nearly-ever when she gets her hands on them, remember? Doesn’t get more hostile than that.

[Schroeswald]

I feel that how he died is directly related to his goal--if he didn't have the goal, he'd have (probably) felt there was no reason to talk to Durkon* privately.

Was it a poor decision to willingly stroll along, alone, with a powerful vampire? Undoubtedly. Was it an ever more poor decision to casually tell that vampire you were out of most of your spells for the day? You bet! But it was also a poor decision for Roy to jump on the back of a flying zombie dragon and engage a powerful lich in melee combat atop said dragon, yet he did it anyway--and (more to my point) the Deva processing Roy admitted they didn't punish people for making poor decisions (can't link the comic at the moment, but I think she said something like "We don't punish people for making mistakes in their judgment of what is best in any given situation ").

So I believe Gontor's death was directly linked to his (I am assuming) honorable goal of getting representation at the Godsmoot for his Church. That being said, it seems you and I are arriving at the "honorable death" conclusion via different routes, and I agree that regardless of my points you also have a good one in that no matter what the death was via combat. So it's probably a MOOT* point anyway.

*I know, I know. I'll see myself out.

He was bringing Durkula to the godsmoot, as his job requires, he just also wanted to talk to him about the stuff.

And of course there is my point that he was running away from danger when he died, making his death not honorable.

[Particle_Man]

I am not sure that Gontor was allowed to attack Greg by the rules of the godsmoot. Gontor didn’t have a patron god to stand up for him but Greg did. So Gontor’s options were run away or stand there and die. And he was out of spells to run away.

[mjasghar]

They may not be her ennemies but she is definitely theirs. She tortured them for-nearly-ever when she gets her hands on them, remember? Doesn’t get more hostile than that.

Well technically that applies to almost every evil deity in d&d they torture the majority of their dead
Even more so with the pantheons in Oots which seem to have evil death deities
I mean, a high ranking priest of nergal wanted to turn the continent into one big death camp
I don’t see any sign of Nergal being the enemy of all those in the western continent

[Fyraltari]

Well technically that applies to almost every evil deity in d&d they torture the majority of their dead
Even more so with the pantheons in Oots which seem to have evil death deities
I mean, a high ranking priest of nergal wanted to turn the continent into one big death camp
I don’t see any sign of Nergal being the enemy of all those in the western continent

They don't single one particular race out, though.

Besides, we don't know that Nergal was behind Malack's plan.

[mjasghar]

Besides, we don't know that Nergal was behind Nergal's plan.

😂🤣😂
I’m hoping you didn’t mean that