An Irresistable Force vs. an Immovable Object....

[Arbitrarity]

Flee in terror, for the uncapped has been unleashed. Someone, somewhere, actually, in This thread, has decided to start an argument over Pun-Pun vs The Mortiverse. The Mortiverse, incidentally, is the result of using the 3rd party "Immortal's Handbook".

Now, while the "logical" debate is fought with set theory, and some rather fuzzy rules, what sort of opinions do we have here?

[Quietus]

Flee in terror, for the uncapped has been unleashed. Someone, somewhere, actually, in This thread, has decided to start an argument over Pun-Pun vs The Mortiverse. The Mortiverse, incidentally, is the result of using the 3rd party "Immortal's Handbook".

Now, while the "logical" debate is fought with set theory, and some rather fuzzy rules, what sort of opinions do we have here?

Easy enough; Roll opposed d20's, add infinity to both. Higher roller wins.

[Green Bean]

I'd say it'd start off as an epic, universe destroying battle, but eventually turn into a Slap Slap Kiss.

You've read it! You can't unread it!

[Arbitrarity]

Owww... it burns!

My eyes want to unread something...

Incidentally

Always Maximize Roll
Greater deities (rank 16-20) automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll. Calculate success, failure, or other effects accordingly. When a greater deity makes a check, attack, or save assume a 20 was rolled and calculate success or failure from there. A d20 should still be rolled and used to check for a threat of a critical hit. This quality means that greater deities never need the Maximize Spell feat, because their spells have maximum effect already.

Wait... that doesn't apply 0.o

They have MORE than 16-20, and they therefore aren't greater deities, so they can't use that....

[Yuki Akuma]

Juggernaut crashing into the Blob, and the Blob goes flying, along with a large chunk of the ground he was standing on. If this is the more powerful Blob, Juggernaut pushes him back and the ground moves with him.

[Yuudai]

Everyone loses

[cupkeyk]

X-men: isn't it odd that the UNSTOPPABLE JUGGERNAUT has been stopped, and the IMMOVABLE BLOB has been moved? Juggernaut's ability involves being "unstoppable" if he gains any forward momentum, while Blob creates a gravitational field preventing him from being moved from his location. They were both defeated by tangent forces, the ground destroyed underneath Jugs, Blob was exposed to a heavier body. Since the active Juggernaut can create a tangent force where as the passive blob cannot, I would say that Irresistable wins.

[Green Bean]

X-men: isn't it odd that the UNSTOPPABLE JUGGERNAUT has been stopped, and the IMMOVABLE BLOB has been moved? Juggernaut's ability involves being "unstoppable" if he gains any forward momentum, while Blob creates a gravitational field preventing him from being moved from his location. They were both defeated by tangent forces, the ground destroyed underneath Jugs, Blob was exposed to a heavier body. Since the active Juggernaut can create a tangent force where as the passive blob cannot, I would say that Irresistable wins.

Technically speaking, you can't have an irresistible force and an immovable object in the same universe at the same time, as the existence of one would preclude the existence of the other.

[Bunny of Faith]

Just wondering, does anyone have a link to the level 1 Pun-Pun? I can't seem to find it...

[Illiterate Scribe]

I have to say that Pun-Pun, saviour of the DnD rules, wins this one. The Mortiverse is just ZOMG NUMBORZ!!1!, whereas Khan, Stormwind, Ghola and others have created an entity that needs its own theory of time to truly comprehend.

[Alleine]

I really can't say, seeing as I haven't seen the most powerful version of pun-pun yet. That thread is too big to sift through, however I think it is pretty pointless. You're pitting a legitimate WoTC-only monstrosity(Pun-Pun) against a 3rd party... thing...(Mortiverse) which is essentially a mass of numbers shoved together until it equals infinity.

Also, Pun-Pun has a cooler name.

[Arbitrarity]

I have to say that Pun-Pun, saviour of the DnD rules, wins this one. The Mortiverse is just ZOMG NUMBORZ!!1!, whereas Khan, Stormwind, Ghola and others have created an entity that needs its own theory of time to truly comprehend.

Actually, if anyone but those who carefully perused the IH knew what that long list of abilities did, it might seem to even the score. There's something about duplication of observed powers, knowing everything (Special: The DM hands you the adventure he is currently running), and a bunch of other crazy stuff like that.

Level 1 pun-pun is somewhere late in the pun-pun thread, not entirely sure where.

[Lyinginbedmon]

I would like to point out that you couldn't have an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.

Consider this: In order for the unstoppable force to continue being so after colliding with the immovable object, it would need to be deflected. In doing so, it's forward momentum would reach zero at one point as it acquires momentum in another direction, thus meaning it isn't unstoppable.

Likewise, for an immovable object to be immovable, it would have to prevent it's own motion after the collision with the unstoppable force. In doing so, it eliminates the possibility of the unstoppable force being unstoppable.

Therefore, as h_v stated, they can't exist in the same universe, if at all.

[Arbitrarity]

I know that Opus 100 FTW.
They're inherently contradictory terms.

On the other hand, it is remarkably similar to the grappling of two infinities. Example, what happens if two creatures with literally infinite stats are forced to make opposed checks (infinite damage loop in conjunction with the Shambling Mound's electricity to CON, followed by Void Release and Bellflower tatoo, followed by use of manipulate form)

[Mewtarthio]

I would like to point out that you couldn't have an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.

Consider this: In order for the unstoppable force to continue being so after colliding with the immovable object, it would need to be deflected. In doing so, it's forward momentum would reach zero at one point as it acquires momentum in another direction, thus meaning it isn't unstoppable.

Likewise, for an immovable object to be immovable, it would have to prevent it's own motion after the collision with the unstoppable force. In doing so, it eliminates the possibility of the unstoppable force being unstoppable.

Therefore, as h_v stated, they can't exist in the same universe, if at all.

I say it shatters the multiverse into an infinite number of timelines, each with a different outcome.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Well, Pun-Pun is only Wizards stuff, but the Mortiverse is 3rd party. They can't work together, unless Pun-Pun has access to those things as well. Then, Pun-Pun has everthing the Mortiverse has, plus all his other stuff.

Pun-Pun wins.

[Arbitrarity]

Well, Pun-Pun is only Wizards stuff, but the Mortiverse is 3rd party. They can't work together, unless Pun-Pun has access to those things as well. Then, Pun-Pun has everthing the Mortiverse has, plus all his other stuff.

Pun-Pun wins.

That is, indeed, a mentioned argument. But that thread makes my brain hurt, if only because they keep throwing around travestries of set theory.

This, however, is a great quote.

I don't frequent these boards. I don't care to debate the minutia of which nigh-omnipotent being is more nigh-omnipotent. I don't even play D&D all that much. But this colossal display of idiocy:

Originally Posted by Buugipopuu
You don't have 0 whole apples, because that's a meaningless concept.

has forced me to respond in the name of all that is good and logical in the universe.

If B ⊂ A then (B ∩ C) ⊂ (A ∩ C).

P.S. If you try to argue that "whole apples" is not a subset of "apples", I shall reach through the Internet and punch you in the face with a fury that only an irked geek can unleash.
P.P.S. YOU ARE BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD.

[Cruiser1]

Concerning what happens if an Unstoppable Force meets an Immovable Object, first take into account relativity, where concepts like "motion" and "rest" are only relative to a particular frame of reference. If object #1 is unstoppable, and object #2 is immovable, note that from a reference frame attached to object #1, the situation is reversed, where it's the Immovable Object and object #2 is the Unstoppable Force.

And with a reference frame half way between the two objects, we have the situation of two Unstoppable Forces meeting. In other words, Unstoppable Force meeting Immovable Object is equivalent to two Unstoppable Forces meeting.

The other consideration is that matter is mostly empty space and energy. Hence if two Unstoppable Forces meet, they'll go through each other and continue on their way. (This is similar to how two galaxies can "collide" and pass through each other mostly unaffected, where the odds of any stars colliding are low since the stars are so far apart from each other.) The Unstoppable Force will go through the Immovable Object and pass out the other side. That answer avoids violating either's condition.

[Emperor Tippy]

Pun-Pun wins by virtue of being able to create abilities for himself that don't ever appear in any rule book and give them to himself as Ex abilities.

"I Win"
Pun-Pun win's every fight, challenge, contest, or anything else Pun-Pun wants to win.
EX

It's perfectly legal per RAW as well.

[kemmotar]

Pun pun with 0 ranks in UMD and infinite charisma score uses a scroll of disintigrate with an infinite DC...there was trouble with the mortiverse link so i couldn't see it(nor do i know all its abilities) however, i doubt he has infinite fort save...(though i can predict that he has infinite con too...)if so, how about infinite will save?something like that comes to mind...if you can't move it...you don't need to...just go around it...

[Alleine]

IIRC the Mortiverse has +infinity to everything, and not nigh infinity either. REAL infinity.

[Arbitrarity]

Pun-Pun wins by virtue of being able to create abilities for himself that don't ever appear in any rule book and give them to himself as Ex abilities.

"I Win"
Pun-Pun win's every fight, challenge, contest, or anything else Pun-Pun wants to win.
EX

It's perfectly legal per RAW as well.

Oddly, that's been mentioned as well

Mortiverse has a "replicate" ability, which allows it to duplicate any ability of any creature it has encountered, so the argument goes as follows...

Oh ho. I've been deliberately avoiding doing this because I'm such a nice guy, and was keeping the moral high ground and not using the loose wording of Manipulate Form to have abilities that aren't published, which is underhanded and lame. But if you insist on interpreting the rules that way, you may note that in order for the Mortiverse to mimic an ability with Replicate, it merely has to have encountered it. It doesn't say it has to have encountered it in combat, or even encountered it being used by a creature that actually exists, or even encountered it during the course of actual events which happen, that the ability in question must be published, or any limitations on what must be done to "encounter" the ability. Thus, using its aleph-aleph-0 actions, the Mortiverse runs its own D&D game with a creature which has the ability:

Omniability
You have every ability contained within the set of abilities which it is beneficial to possess.

By playing a game in which this ability is on a creature, it encounters the ability, and thus replicates it with Replicate. What's really neat is that abilities copied with Replicate may be used "at any time". Not "at any time after encountering the ability", or even "at any time after taking Replicate", meaning the Mortiverse has every beneficial ability contained within the set of all abilities from the beginning of time, without taking any actions at all.

Which, incidentally, is idiotic.

IIRC the Mortiverse has +infinity to everything, and not nigh infinity either. REAL infinity.

True, but that is cancelled by something with the same ability. Therefore, pun-pun can have "virtual" infinity, as well as a real infinity, through the mentioned infinite damage loop/Shambling mound/Bellflower tattoo/void release/manipulate form.

[cupkeyk]

Technically speaking, you can't have an irresistible force and an immovable object in the same universe at the same time, as the existence of one would preclude the existence of the other.

Hence the quotation marks on my reply; Jugs and Blob aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed, so we can't blame them if they named themselves with taglines they can't live up to.

[skyclad]

I say it shatters the multiverse into an infinite number of timelines, each with a different outcome.

Doesnt that always happen anyway?

[AlterForm]

snip

You bet its idiotic.

I haven't wanted to bring this up on the actual topic yet, but Bigxxxx claims Morti can replicate "the entire universe, perfectly, in its head, as a 'DnD Game' ".

But...if it would take an infinite amount "memory" to run a perfect simulation (Aleph-null?), but that simulation includes an infinitely complex creature/idea (Mortiverse, which in itself would take Aleph-null? memory to "run"), wouldn't the "actual memory" required be Aleph-1? Maybe Morti could do this if he had Aleph-null "memory", but if his simulation includes himself (which it would have to, since he's using it to "encounter" an ability), wouldn't have to account for...uh...Universe(Aleph-null), +Morti(Aleph-1), Morti's simulation inside himself(Aleph-2?), [recursion to Aleph-(Aleph-null))? Does that work? Would it even stop ther?], since every iteration has to contain a perfect "copy" of Morti, which is each infinitely complicated, simulation an infinitely complex existence and an infinitely complex being who is simulating an infinitely complex existence and an inifinitely complex being who is simulating an infinitely complex existence and an inifinitely complex being who is simulating an infinitely complex existence and an inifinitely complex being [repeatrepeatrepeat].

Even Morti can't process an infinitely-recursive simulation which adds another infinitely complex layer of complexity with each recursion, can he? (Incidentally, Pun-Pun can. He uses:

Infinite computation: Pun-Pun (and only Pun-Pun) can process/imagine/simulate anything, no matter how complex.)

Am I right? Or do I still not get the concepts of Alephs well enough? (I think that's what the argument Bigxxxx is presenting boils down to, and I can't say I fully understand Alephs yet, but I think I understand enough to follow the argument...)

[Arbitrarity]

Having not actually began work on calculus or higher maths, I am unable to respond in a properly informed manner. All I can do is peruse wikipedia

[AlterForm]

Having not actually began work on calculus or higher maths, I am unable to respond in a properly informed manner. All I can do is peruse wikipedia

Heh, that's exactly what I did.

If I understood correctly, Aleph-Null = Layman's Infinity. Aleph-1 = Layman's Infinity^2. And so on? I dunno.

[Indon]

According to Exalted 1'st edition, the Immovable Object always wins.

[Bauglir]

Even Morti can't process an infinitely-recursive simulation which adds another infinitely complex layer of complexity with each recursion, can he?

Y'know, that's what I said. Apparently alephs fix it? I don't really know, all I know is that I'm convinced that in any fight where the rules apply equally to both of them, we have a draw. Because they can both copy each others abilities (Pun-Pun, obviously, copies Morti's, but Morti can grab Manipulate Form as well and gain all of Pun-Pun's).

[Emperor Tippy]

Actually Pun-Pun can create an ability that says none of his abilities can be copied by Mort and thus wins.

"I Win" is a valid, RAW legal, Pun-Pun ability. Anything you can imagine Pun-Pun can have as an ability. And with his infinite knowledge checks he can imagine everything.