The Mandalorian: First Trailer

[Fyraltari]

Because fascism is extremely unstable, innefficient, and more fragile than most form of government.

The Empire was ripe with corruption, waste, and could only sustain itself by having a permanent conquering campaign of the outer rims.

In addition to the deaths of their leader and several military commanders, their superweapon(s) and their biggest fleet which probably threw their command structure into disaray and to massive popular uprisings (including in their heart, the Core).

[Cikomyr]

In addition to the deaths of their leader and several military commanders, their superweapon(s) and their biggest fleet which probably threw their command structure into disaray and to massive popular uprisings (including in their heart, the Core).

Yup. If anything, I find Legends's long and prolonged fall of the Empire to be the least realistic of the two.

But they needed bad guys so Luke Skywalker and friends could fight, so.. That's what we got.

[Mechalich]

Do they, though? And for how long? And if he wanted to be honest with Mando why didn’t he offer to pay the other half later?

The Mandalorian personally spends Imperial Credits in Episode 5, and says so explicitly. They're still viable in the present.

Yup. If anything, I find Legends's long and prolonged fall of the Empire to be the least realistic of the two.

But they needed bad guys so Luke Skywalker and friends could fight, so.. That's what we got.

Historically, the downfall of large empires has in fact been quite prolonged, even in the 20th century. Star Wars battles are modeled on World War II style air and naval combat, and the Battle of Endor is best characterized as equivalent to The Battle of Midway - which strategically crippled the Empire of Japan in a way from which they would never recover from, but happened with the majority of the war left to go.

[Fyraltari]

The Mandalorian personally spends Imperial Credits in Episode 5, and says so explicitly. They're still viable in the present.

Tatooine is the arse-end of nowhere though.

Historically, the downfall of large empires has in fact been quite prolonged, even in the 20th century. Star Wars battles are modeled on World War II style air and naval combat, and the Battle of Endor is best characterized as equivalent to The Battle of Midway - which strategically crippled the Empire of Japan in a way from which they would never recover from, but happened with the majority of the war left to go.

These Empires were already long-established by the time they started to crumble. The Galactic Empire wasn’t. Genghis Khan’s and Alexander’s empires did not outlive their founder either.

[Peelee]

Do they, though? And for how long? And if he wanted to be honest with Mando why didn’t he offer to pay the other half later?

Because he's not a bank.

[Cikomyr]

The Mandalorian personally spends Imperial Credits in Episode 5, and says so explicitly. They're still viable in the present.



Historically, the downfall of large empires has in fact been quite prolonged, even in the 20th century. Star Wars battles are modeled on World War II style air and naval combat, and the Battle of Endor is best characterized as equivalent to The Battle of Midway - which strategically crippled the Empire of Japan in a way from which they would never recover from, but happened with the majority of the war left to go.

These large Empires were "natural", and not fascist flash-in-the-pan like the Galactic Empire was.

These collapse extremely fast by their very nature.

[Fyraltari]

Because he's not a bank.

Since when do you have a to be a bank to say "I don't have all the money right now, I'll pay you the rest later"?

[Aeson]

Genghis Khan’s and Alexander’s empires did not outlive their founder either.

Last I checked, the Mongol Empire outlived Genghis Khan by something like sixty or seventy years despite succession disputes and reached its greatest extent some thirty years or so after his demise.

As to Alexander's empire, that fragmented into a few major states rather than disappearing entirely whereas The Mandalorian makes it sound like the Galactic Empire more or less entirely vanished.

[Peelee]

Since when do you have a to be a bank to say "I don't have all the money right now, I'll pay you the rest later"?

He does have all the money right now, though. Mando just doesn't want it. If I offered you a job and then at the end you said you wanted gold bullion instead of USD, I'm not obligated to give you gold bullion. If I have half the amount on me I might offer that, but I'm not going to go out of my way to get currency exchanged when you're the one being problematic and choosy. You could take the USD and get it exchanged yourself, take the USD and call it a day, or take half the bullion if you can't be bothered to exchange yourself.

Because again, Greef ain't a bank. Mando has no problem spending imperial credits, but he gave the flan to the armorer, who probably would not want imperial credits. Which means it's his problem if he wants the money in a different form. He took the pay cut. At any point he could have taken the credits. He chose not to. This is all on him.

[Fyraltari]

Last I checked, the Mongol Empire outlived Genghis Khan by something like sixty or seventy years despite succession disputes and reached its greatest extent some thirty years or so after his demise.

Several mongol empires, outlived Genghis Khan, but his pan-asiatic empire was fragmented upon his death of memory serves.

As to Alexander's empire, that fragmented into a few major states rather than disappearing entirely whereas The Mandalorian makes it sound like the Galactic Empire more or less entirely vanished.

No, it doesn’t? One of its successor factions is apparently able to hire the entire Bounty Hunter Guild to find one baby. The Empire doesn’t exist as a galactic state but ‘mercenaries and warlords’ are explicitly mentioned. It lost its integrity and most of its territory but there are still pockets of Imperial rule (one which will turn into the First Order) to be stamped out.

He does have all the money right now, though. Mando just doesn't want it. If I offered you a job and then at the end you said you wanted gold bullion instead of USD, I'm not obligated to give you gold bullion. If I have half the amount on me I might offer that, but I'm not going to go out of my way to get currency exchanged when you're the one being problematic and choosy. You could take the USD and get it exchanged yourself, take the USD and call it a day, or take half the bullion if you can't be bothered to exchange yourself.

But that’s not what’s happening. What would be analoguous would be, we agreed I’d work for you for 100, 000 bucks and then you show up with pre-decimalisation British coins or half the price in Canadian dollars. You clearly aren’t being straight with me there.

Because again, Greef ain't a bank.

No he’s not, he’s a criminal who can deal in several different currencies since he’s doing it right then.

Mando has no problem spending imperial credits

Yeah he does, probably because a currency has to be backed by a government and the Empire is gone.

but he gave the flan to the armorer, who probably would not want imperial credits. Which means it's his problem if he wants the money in a different form.

Except that Greef is clearly able to get money in a currency that Mando will accept.
And do note that the Mandalorian had nothing to purchase from the Blacksmith at that point so even if his refusal to take imperial money was due to moral concerns (which, again, doesn’t mesh with his willingness to work for Imperials) that wouldn’t be new.

And they’ve known each other for a while so one way or another he had to know Mando wouldn’t take Imperial credits.

He took the pay cut. At any point he could have taken the credits. He chose not to. This is all on him.

Yeah, it’s on him that he didn’t insist his employer give him his full salary, I agree. But what I’m not sure is if he’s doing it because he doesn’t feel fighting Greef over that is worth it or if doesn’t realize Greef tricked him into accepting half pay while making it look like he’s the onene being difficult.

I’m kinda surprised by your insistance that the criminal who lead him to believe he was the only one after a target he handed out to everybody is being honest with Mando, though.

[Peelee]

But that’s not what’s happening. What would be analoguous would be, we agreed I’d work for you for 100, 000 bucks and then you show up with pre-decimalisation British coins or half the price in Canadian dollars. You clearly aren’t being straight with me there.

That's also a poor analogy, unless you live in Britain and people still totally take pre-decimalisation British coins and its honestly not outlandish at all for that to be offered and you even deal with those yourself just not with me right now.

In which case, no, it's still your problem, because you're being arbitrary.

Theres no trick, I just legit don't have that many loonies on me and the onus is not on me to give you CAD when we said the amounts in P-DBC and when I have perfectly acceptable currency right here which you should have honestly expected.

[druid91]

Tatooine is the arse-end of nowhere though.




These Empires were already long-established by the time they started to crumble. The Galactic Empire wasn’t. Genghis Khan’s and Alexander’s empires did not outlive their founder either.

I mean, according to the new canon the Empire didn't even vanish. It's still there. The Core Worlds still have moffs, Imperial Troops and the same old dictatorship system.

Why? Because at least according to the New Canon, they wanted that. They had to De-Militarize to a degree.... but the Empire only fell in the Outer Rim and Mid-Rim. Because the Unknown Regions is where the First Order (Who were the remnants of the Empire that were in control in the Outer Rim at the time.) went to with all their military equipment, starships.

New Canon just makes little to no sense. Or rather it makes sense but it sets up the original trilogies heroes as a parade of idiots, dunces, and morons so as to set up the crushing annihilation of anything approaching a legacy they might have had.

[Fyraltari]

That's also a poor analogy, unless you live in Britain and people still totally take pre-decimalisation British coins and its honestly not outlandish at all for that to be offered and you even deal with those yourself just not with me right now. In which case, no, it's still your problem, because you're being arbitrary.
Theres no trick, I just legit don't have that many loonies on me and the onus is not on me to give you CAD when we said the amounts in P-DBC and when I have perfectly acceptable currency right here which you should have honestly expected.

The mandalorian doesn't deal them though. He gets paid in flans and beskar steel.
I don't remeber anyone payig in imperial credits in the show, but I'll cop to not paying much attention to the money used since it's such a detail.

I mean, according to the new canon the Empire didn't even vanish. It's still there. The Core Worlds still have moffs, Imperial Troops and the same old dictatorship system.

Are you sure? Because, Greef tells him to go to the Core if he wants New Republic credits.

[Peelee]

The mandalorian doesn't deal them though.

He didn't that one time. Mandalorian iron isn't a common commodity; it'd be like taking a job that offered bullion and then saying "I don't take cash, I take gold bars."

Anyway. Your interpretation is that the head of a guild, who has clearly been around the block a few times, is cheating his own guild members, who themselves are specifically in the business of violently taking people captive and/or killing them. And it working.

That requires everyone involved to be making the poorest choices possible. I choose to believe that they are acting rationally, which would mean the Mandalorian knows he's in a weaker bargaining position and is willing to forego half of the payment in order to get it in a currency that he would prefer.

[Fyraltari]

He didn't that one time. Mandalorian iron isn't a common commodity; it'd be like taking a job that offered bullion and then saying "I don't take cash, I take gold bars."

But he didn't get paid in Mandalorian iron, he got paid in calamari money. The mandalorian iron was something the imperial spontaneously orffered, he didn't ask for it.

Anyway. Your interpretation is that the head of a guild, who has clearly been around the block a few times, is cheating his own guild members, who themselves are specifically in the business of violently taking people captive and/or killing them. And it working.

Well yeah, because that's what we're seeing. You position seems to be that Greef randomly had half the price on him in a currency he doesn't normaly use and that the Mandalorian decided to be difficult out of nowhere for no particular reason.

That requires everyone involved to be making the poorest choices possible. I choose to believe that they are acting rationally, which would mean the Mandalorian knows he's in a weaker bargaining position and is willing to forego half of the payment in order to get it in a currency that he would prefer.

No it doesn't? The Mandalorian is in a weaker bargaining position which is specifically why Greef can afford to scam him like that. What's the Mandalorian gonna do if he doesn't fall for it? Sue him? Fight the entire Guild?

[Peelee]

No it doesn't? The Mandalorian is in a weaker bargaining position which is specifically why Greef can afford to scam him like that. What's the Mandalorian gonna do if he doesn't fall for it? Sue him? Fight the entire Guild?

Why would the entire guild fight for a guy who scams them? The Mandalorian was prepared to walk away. He was in the process of walking away. He's in a weaker position be ause he sprang a surprise currency issue on payday. He pays credits to the Kubaz, to the driver, to the bartender, to the dockworker, everyone but the Mandalorian armor master. To her, he pays flan. This is straight up a Mandalorian problem, not an anyone-else problem.

Also, who knows what money Greef had on him? Chances are he had significantly more credits, because who knows when a bounty comes in? And he may have other currency because other people request it. A quarren, for example, may want to be paid in flan (and made this known prior to showing up) and Greef could have had that for him, except now he has to give it to the Mandalorian.

[Cikomyr]

Actually

Thinking about it more

He should have accepted half in Calamari Flan, and the remaining half in imperial credits.

Or should have said something like "ok, half in calamari flans. Here's half of my bounties"

[Fyraltari]

Why would the entire guild fight for a guy who scams them?

Because he's the one finding them jobs. They're not in a position to complain about abuses of power.

The Mandalorian was prepared to walk away. He was in the process of walking away. He's in a weaker position be ause he sprang a surprise currency issue on payday.

No he didn't. I just rewatch the scene.
The dialog goes like this.
Greef I'll begin the offload. *Alien tongue to another guy then puts credits on table.
Mando *surprised tone* These are imperial credits.
G They still spend.
M I don't know if you've heard but the Empire is gone.
G It's all I've got. *M tries to take the fobs* Save the theatrics... Fine, I'll... I can do Calamari Flans. But I can only pay half.
M *Looks at G for a moment* Fine.

Greef tried to pay Mando in a currency they didn't agree upon and tried to justify it saying that Imperial credits still spent, implying that the objection he foresees is that they are worthless and MAndo refuses to buy that arguments by pointing out that the empire is gone meaning that no government backs that currency anymore meaning that even if they aren't worthless yet they soon will be. Greef then lies saying that he doesn't have any other currency. Mando then leaves. Which get Greef to relents and offer to pay half-price in Calamari Flans. Something that Mando accepts after a moment of reflexion.

My reading of this is that Greef knew that Mando was unlikely to accept Imperial credits because they are almost worthless already so he pretended to pay Mando with them despite it not being their usual agreement so that when he refuses he'll have an excuse to cut some of Mando's wages and line his pockets with the difference. And if the Mandalorian accepts the Imperial Credits then he'll be rid of them with a greater return than what selling them for the metal would get him.

Your reading, as far as I can tell, is that Greef usually pays Mando in Imperial Credits wwho spends them without a problem, but for reasons you don't even try to explain, he refused this one particular time, even forgoing half his pay.

He pays credits to the Kubaz, to the driver, to the bartender, to the dockworker, everyone but the Mandalorian armor master.

Does he, though? We don't see the money he gives to people close enough to see if they are Imperial Credits or any other currency (New Republic? Whatever the Hutts use?) and he couldn't have been planning to go tot the armourer when he met Greef because he had nothing for her to forge at th

To her, he pays flan. This is straight up a Mandalorian problem, not an anyone-else problem.

If that was the case, then wouldn't either of the two have commented on it being a Mandalorian thing? Something like "What's wrong with them? All the others take those." This is an exposition scene, introducing to the characters and their interactions. It would have been a great moment to introduce the Mandalorian's/s' views on the Empire, instead it tells us that the Empire is gone but that it is fresh enough that its elements are still somewhat presents in the galaxy (foreshadowing, the imperial remnant moments later and the AT-ST of episode 4) and that while Greef is Mando's regular employer and appreciates his skill (also establishing Mando as being an above-average bounty hunter) he is a shdy character who does not have his best interest at heart, foreshadowing the conflict with the Guild starting in episode 3.

Also, who knows what money Greef had on him? Chances are he had significantly more credits, because who knows when a bounty comes in? And he may have other currency because other people request it. A quarren, for example, may want to be paid in flan (and made this known prior to showing up) and Greef could have had that for him, except now he has to give it to the Mandalorian.

So you're telling me that the guy who deal with different people with different currencies couldn't find more Calamari Flans to finish paying up the Mandalorian later because, "he's not a bank"? do you see the contradiction here?

Actually

Thinking about it more

He should have accepted half in Calamari Flan, and the remaining half in imperial credits.
.
Or should have said something like "ok, half in calamari flans. Here's half of my bounties"

Yeah, which is why my original question was "does he relaizes what Greef is doing but accepts it to make the most of a bad situation because he doesn't think he can fight Greef on that and keep a working relationship with him" or "does he really think that Greef is being fair with him and so is not the sharpest knife in the shed as shown by his immediately attacking the jawas"?

[Peelee]

Because he's the one finding them jobs. They're not in a position to complain about abuses of power.

The guildmaster is dead, long live the guildmaster.

[Fyraltari]

The guildmaster is dead, long live the guildmaster.

Yeah, no. Turns out that in order to lead anything you need more than ass-kickingf skills and most people recognize that.

Also are you ever going to tell me why you think Mando refused the Imperial credits?

[Peelee]

Yeah, no. Turns out that in order to lead anything you need more than ass-kickingf skills and most people recognize that.

Also are you ever going to tell me why you think Mando refused the Imperial credits?

And I doubt that there is no power structure in the guild other than "one dude is in charge and that's it," or that no other people could do what Greef did and he is indispensable to the guild and it will not function without him.

Also, I've said multiple times why the Mandalorian refused imperial credits; he was going to give his payment to the other Mandalorians for whatever reason and seeing how they reacted to Imperial stamped beskar, they would have refused imperial credits. He gave the flan when getting the pauldrons but did not give any money when getting the rest of the armor, and he was already using shoretrooper bits instead of Mandalorian armor. Even if not made of beskar, it's reasonable to think that he wanted to get more traditional armor in place of scraps from imperial troops. He lucked into getting beskar, and got better and more armor than he expected.

[Fyraltari]

And I doubt that there is no power structure in the guild other than "one dude is in charge and that's it," or that no other people could do what Greef did and he is indispensable to the guild and it will not function without him.

Considering the guild has a Code, employs a lot of people (we've seen dozens and no indications that all the deaths so far trimmed their numbers much) and are well-known and far-reaching enough that

Spoiler: Very mild ep 5 spoiler

Show

stating you are looking for bonuty hunting job in a place where they're not gets you a "the guild doesn't operate out of here."

it seems to me that it's very much bigger than just one guy and his goons. The more I think of it, the more it sounds like Greef is only middle-management within the Guild.

Also, I've said multiple times why the Mandalorian refused imperial credits; he was going to give his payment to the other Mandalorians for whatever reason and seeing how they reacted to Imperial stamped beskar, they would have refused imperial credits. He gave the flan when getting the pauldrons but did not give any money when getting the rest of the armor, and he was already using shoretrooper bits instead of Mandalorian armor. Even if not made of beskar, it's reasonable to think that he wanted to get more traditional armor in place of scraps from imperial troops. He lucked into getting beskar, and got better and more armor than he expected.

No, no, no, that's a reason for why he wouldn't pay the Armourer with imperial credits but if he uses them for anything else then why would he refuse to take them? Why would he abandon half his payment when he's clearly not rolling in cash? He could have taken the Flans and half the Imperial credits. That he took zero Imperial credits mean that they are worth absolutely nothing to him.

Edit: And if he was planning on refusing his usual payment, why didn't he tell Greef before? And, again, what's stopping Greef from telling him he'll pay the rest later? They see each other semi-regularly, if Greef really wanted to pay him in full he could just take whatever is missing from this bounty in Flans and bring it next time in addition to what he'd pay him for the next job.

[Peelee]

Considering the guild has a Code, employs a lot of people (we've seen dozens and no indications that all the deaths so far trimmed their numbers much) and are well-known and far-reaching enough that

Spoiler: Very mild ep 5 spoiler

Show

stating you are looking for bonuty hunting job in a place where they're not gets you a "the guild doesn't operate out of here."

it seems to me that it's very much bigger than just one guy and his goons. The more I think of it, the more it sounds like Greef is only middle-management within the Guild.

Which, if true, would make your position that he can extort them with impunity all the stranger.

No, no, no, that's a reason for why he wouldn't pay the Armourer with imperial credits but if he uses them for anything else then why would he refuse to take them? Why would he abandon half his payment when he's clearly not rolling in cash? He could have taken the Flans and half the Imperial credits. That he took zero Imperial credits mean that they are worth absolutely nothing to him.

He wasn't offered half in credits and half in flan. He was offered all in credits, or half in flan.

[Fyraltari]

Which, if true, would make your position that he can extort them with impunity all the stranger.

Not really, big organizations protecting the middle-men over the repleceable footmen would hardly be novel.
Edit: Especially in criminal organizations: no unionizing there.

He wasn't offered half in credits and half in flan. He was offered all in credits, or half in flan.

So what was stopping them from proposing just that?

And why not take all imperials and buy fuel or food with it? If the only reason he doesn't want Imperial credits is that the Armourer won't take them why not take them and spend them on literally anything else like you say he does throughout the show (which I don't accept).

[Peelee]

Not really, big organizations protecting the middle-men over the repleceable footmen would hardly be novel.
Edit: Especially in criminal organizations: no unionizing there.

Or they could kill him and let a replacement take over. What are the higher ups going to do, wipe out the only way they make money?

Also, that's considering whether Greeef really is only middle management. There's no indication he's not the top. Could be could not be and in either case there's not much protecting him if he's dumb enough to rip off a literal gang of killers.

[Fyraltari]

Or they could kill him and let a replacement take over. What are the higher ups going to do, wipe out the only way they make money?

Put a bounty on the guy who killed Greef (pretty sure that’d be breaking the Code) to keep the others from having ideas and giving his post to somebody else. How criminal organisations operate.

Also, that's considering whether Greeef really is only middle management. There's no indication he's not the top. Could be could not be and in either case there's not much protecting him if he's dumb enough to rip off a literal gang of killers.

Yeah there is, he’s the one with the contact, it’s a balance between taking their money but being too useful to pass on, so he’s still giving Mando half his money, not a quarter.

Still waiting on why he wouldn’t take imperial credits if he spends them, by the way.

[Peelee]

Put a bounty on the guy who killed Greef (pretty sure that’d be breaking the Code) to keep the others from having ideas and giving his post to somebody else. How criminal organisations operate.

Funny thing, he dies in a crowded cantina but nobody saw anything. Theres a rumor that he tripped over his own blaster bolt. Welcome to the Star Wars galaxy, where life is cheap.

Also, who's to say it's a criminal organization? The bounties are mostly bail jumpers!

[Keltest]

I don't understand why theres an argument here. Mando obviously refuses the imperial credits because of his personal and/or cultural beef with the Empire. Later, he works for the remnant because they offered him enough beskar for him to get over it, and it turns out to still be something of a sore spot with the other Mandalorians (and himself) that he did that. It seems pretty straightforward to me. As much as he plays the strong silent type, his motives aren't exactly inscrutable.

[Fyraltari]

Funny thing, he dies in a crowded cantina but nobody saw anything. Theres a rumor that he tripped over his own blaster bolt. Welcome to the Star Wars galaxy, where life is cheap.

Funny that, there’s a guy who says he got his job now. I wonder if he has anything to do with his death.

Also, who's to say it's a criminal organization? The bounties are mostly bail jumpers!

Ignoring the fact that Star Wars bounty hunters have always been willing to work for crimelords, the mission they are all in is off-the register and ‘underground’ was Mando’s literal first guess of employer when told that. Also they try to kill Mando after he attacks the imperial way before any kind of legal authority could issue any kind of bounty on him. That they do legal works most of the time doesn’t make them not a gang too.

Still waiting on that answer by the way.

I don't understand why theres an argument here. Mando obviously refuses the imperial credits because of his personal and/or cultural beef with the Empire. Later, he works for the remnant because they offered him enough beskar for him to get over it, and it turns out to still be something of a sore spot with the other Mandalorians (and himself) that he did that. It seems pretty straightforward to me. As much as he plays the strong silent type, his motives aren't exactly inscrutable.

If that were the case why was that not mentionned during that conversation? The Mando’s stayed reason for not accepting the imperial credits is that they don’t spend because the Empire is gone. And he was willing to sit down with the imperials before they showed him any beskar.

[Peelee]

Funny that, there’s a guy who says he got his job now. I wonder if he has anything to do with his death.

Flow of money is uninterrupted so I'd say that's largely academic. Again, assuming that Apollo Creed isn't the head honcho, which we have no indication of. Just saying that under your proposed super shady criminal enterprise where he's middle management, I doubt they'd care if employee #2576 for replaced with employee #6544.

Also, that you do not like my answer does not mean I have not provided one.