OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread

[Rogar Demonblud]

I take it you've never read The Secret of Wilhelm Storitz?

[The Pilgrim]

Wasn't that one his son's, rather than Jules?

[Particle_Man]

One Watsonian/Doylist split:

I know why Loki told Thor that he couldn't be honest from the Doylist persective. It let us, the readers, know an interesting and plot-relevant fact about Loki.

But from a Watsonian perspective, does Thor not already know this about Loki? I mean, he and Loki have known about being affected by mortal beliefs for how long? And Thor has known about Loki in this world's incarnation for millenia. Thor doesn't seem so clueless that he needs reminding of Loki's incapability of honesty this by Loki to me.

[Jasdoif]

But from a Watsonian perspective, does Thor not already know this about Loki? I mean, he and Loki have known about being affected by mortal beliefs for how long? And Thor has known about Loki in this world's incarnation for millenia. Thor doesn't seem so clueless that he needs reminding of Loki's incapability of honesty this by Loki to me.

Loki is capable of being honest under certain conditions, though. I would guess Thor didn't know specifically what those conditions are...He may have thought Loki could be as honest with his daughter as he is with his brother.

[Fyraltari]

Loki probably never told Thor he could only be honest with him and Thor has enough on his plate already without eavesdropping on Loki’s faithful’s theological debates.

[Squire Doodad]

Being Familicide an Epic Spell, could it affect a god? If so, would it affect the other gods related to that one?

"Almighty beings that created the world" strikes me as the sort of thing I would give instant kill immunity to. And if they are writing the rules with their own flair to it, they'd probably give it to themselves too. They're probably immune to anything that deals fixed damage, instantly kills/dustify (for undead) the target, or fractional damage (such as "deals 50% of the target's current health", "deals 25% of the target's CON*5" or "deals 250% of the target's max health"), on top of the normal immunities you'd expect.

[D.One]

"Almighty beings that created the world" strikes me as the sort of thing I would give instant kill immunity to. And if they are writing the rules with their own flair to it, they'd probably give it to themselves too. They're probably immune to anything that deals fixed damage, instantly kills/dustify (for undead) the target, or fractional damage (such as "deals 50% of the target's current health", "deals 25% of the target's CON*5" or "deals 250% of the target's max health"), on top of the normal immunities you'd expect.

Just found it:

Immunities
Deities have the following immunities. Individual deities may have more immunities. Unless otherwise indicated, these immunities do not apply if the attacker is a deity of equal or higher rank.

Transmutation
A deity is immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters its form. Any shape-altering powers the deity might have work normally on itself.

Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage
A deity is not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage.

Mind-Affecting Effects
A deity is immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

Energy Immunity
Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to electricity, cold, and acid, even if the attacker is a deity of higher divine rank. Some deities have additional energy immunities.

Other Immunities
Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to disease and poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, and death effects, and disintegration.

Deities of rank 6 or higher are immune to effects that imprison or banish them. Such effects include banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, and turning and rebuking.

So, unless Familicide is cast by a deity of superior rank, it won't work.

Edit: Besides, deities have Spell Resistance 32 + Divine Rank, and any deity of Divine Rank 11+ (Intermediate and Greater Gods) always takes 20 on any check.

[Squire Doodad]

Just found it:



So, unless Familicide is cast by a deity of superior rank, it won't work.

Edit: Besides, deities have Spell Resistance 32 + Divine Rank, and any deity of Divine Rank 11+ (Intermediate and Greater Gods) always takes 20 on any check.

Cool! That makes sense, never read that bit.

Side note: the reason for the "fractional damage" bit is because Familicide is an Epic Uberspell, so it might not be a death effect (me defining death effect as an instant-KO skill that inflicts an instant death "status", might not quite translate to the DnD definition) in any way, but rather deals impossible damage that kills its target through raw damage well beyond what the wearer can defend against, even if it has strong defenses, as opposed to inflicting a "you're dead" status.

[RatElemental]

Cool! That makes sense, never read that bit.

Side note: the reason for the "fractional damage" bit is because Familicide is an Epic Uberspell, so it might not be a death effect (me defining death effect as an instant-KO skill that inflicts an instant death "status", might not quite translate to the DnD definition) in any way, but rather deals impossible damage that kills its target through raw damage well beyond what the wearer can defend against, even if it has strong defenses, as opposed to inflicting a "you're dead" status.

Familicide likely uses the slay seed for the actual 'payload' as it were, which unless ad-hoced a bit inflicts death outright but on a save inflicts ludicrous damage anyway.

[The MunchKING]

Cool! That makes sense, never read that bit.

Side note: the reason for the "fractional damage" bit is because Familicide is an Epic Uberspell, so it might not be a death effect (me defining death effect as an instant-KO skill that inflicts an instant death "status", might not quite translate to the DnD definition) in any way, but rather deals impossible damage that kills its target through raw damage well beyond what the wearer can defend against, even if it has strong defenses, as opposed to inflicting a "you're dead" status.

I remember some people were speculating it hit you with a massive amount of Negative levels; enough to instantly kill anything not immune to it, which is why Zombie Momma Dragon survived until V re-disintegrated her. SO if that was the case, 90 or so negative levels would kill even the Deities & Demigod gods, if they weren't immune to level drain. (I think the quoted bit says they are if that's the same thing as energy drain).

Either way, pretty matter no matter what metric you use to kill mortals, it's going to be hard to pull off on a God.

EDIT:

I don't buy the putting another soul will be a gross violation of our contract ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html ). The first usage from IFCC was a temporary inaction, and what if they offer to Hel some form of possession there?

What if PUTTING another soul in would be a gross violation of the contract, so they won't do that. But can they be blamed if there's a soulless Unholyly shielded elf body laying around and Hel (or anyone else with possession powers) just HAPPENS to take advantage of it? THEY totally didn't put anyone in there, No sir. It was that dang Ghost and it's possession powers. Or something.

[Particle_Man]

Could Hel try to survive by becoming an undead version of a God? Perhaps the dietary requirements would be different.

[Schroeswald]

Could Hel try to survive by becoming an undead version of a God? Perhaps the dietary requirements would be different.

Can you even do that?

[Particle_Man]

Can you even do that?

I don’t know but she is a death goddess who creates vampires.

[Jasdoif]

Could Hel try to survive by becoming an undead version of a God? Perhaps the dietary requirements would be different.

I don't see why getting undead qualities would make a difference. We're not talking about conventional food, which all deities can survive without anyway. (I'm also not sure she doesn't already have undead qualities, but it doesn't matter if it doesn't matter)

[F.Harr]

O.K., that hangs together.

[Emanick]

Regarding that debate about people remembering more the antagonist than the protagonist from Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea, I should mention that nobody remembers the name of any protagonist of a Jules Verne novel besides Phileas Fogg and perhaps Michael Strogoff, the latter only because it's the title of the book.

You’re forgetting Axel and Passepartout. Or perhaps I’m the only one who remembers Axel. I always liked him; he’s basically the opposite of a Mary Sue - an author insert with all the internalized sense of impotence left in.

[factotum]

Could Hel try to survive by becoming an undead version of a God? Perhaps the dietary requirements would be different.

I'm pretty sure she's already effectively an undead, at least from the waist down!

[The Pilgrim]

You’re forgetting Axel and Passepartout. Or perhaps I’m the only one who remembers Axel. I always liked him; he’s basically the opposite of a Mary Sue - an author insert with all the internalized sense of impotence left in.

Passep... you mean Mr. Niven's mexican servant?

[EmperorSarda]

EDIT: I also think you're forgetting that the gods originated "from beyond the chaos." Their initial creation and/or ascension would involve how things work in that other place, wherever that might be, and has little bearing on the story.

Now I have it in my mind that the gods of OoTSverse are more akin to the Primordials of the Exalted rpg game, and The Snarl is just another flavor of Fae/Balorian Crusade/Hyenna.

[Particle_Man]

Loki is capable of being honest under certain conditions, though. I would guess Thor didn't know specifically what those conditions are...He may have thought Loki could be as honest with his daughter as he is with his brother.

Loki probably never told Thor he could only be honest with him and Thor has enough on his plate already without eavesdropping on Loki’s faithful’s theological debates.

That means that Thor has learned to major things in two days!

1) The existence of the world inside the Snarl
2) Loki's inability to be honest to anyone except Thor.

Nice to know that a God that exists from eons ago can still be surprised, even after being recently surprised!

[DavidSh]

It's possible that Loki's inability to be honest with anybody besides Thor is relatively new. Maybe only from the last few thousand worlds.

[Skull the Troll]

Sure...
This seems more like a cyclic thing to me, the public gets bored of shiny-perfect heroes and so starts favoring anti-heroes and gritty settings, the popularity of which spawns more and more cynical works until the public find those dim and cliché and starts reading more and more idealistic works, rinse, repeat and adjust for current socio-political mood.


Well he is the movies's (vilain) protagonist, so it only makes sense.

You're holding up the nineties as "Villains from long ago?" {Scrubbed}

[Fyraltari]

You're holding up the nineties as "Villains from long ago?" {Scrubbed post, scrubbed quote}

First, {Scrubbed}.
Second, no, I am not. Dracula is a villain from long ago.
The nineties on the other hand are still further back than

lately (i.e. last decade or two)

Which was my point.

[mjasghar]

Now I have it in my mind that the gods of OoTSverse are more akin to the Primordials of the Exalted rpg game, and The Snarl is just another flavor of Fae/Balorian Crusade/Hyenna.

It’s closer to dragonlance but with them creating the Chaos Primordial or whatever he was
And now I just realised I actually agreed with you in another post in that they feed of the energy and the whole divine game thing

[D.One]

I remember some people were speculating it hit you with a massive amount of Negative levels; enough to instantly kill anything not immune to it, which is why Zombie Momma Dragon survived until V re-disintegrated her. SO if that was the case, 90 or so negative levels would kill even the Deities & Demigod gods, if they weren't immune to level drain. (I think the quoted bit says they are if that's the same thing as energy drain).

Either way, pretty matter no matter what metric you use to kill mortals, it's going to be hard to pull off on a God.

Both death effects and energy drain are things undead tend to be immune to. The visuals of the effect lead me to think it was a death effect, but there's no way to be 100% sure. Maybe Darth V didn't realy need to animate her, but only needed to cast it on her body, alive or not (after all, the spell talks about "sharing blood"). If V needed to animate the head, meaning the spell must be cast on a creature, not on a dead body, then I suspect both the body and the soul are needed as a target. If V didn't need the animation, and just needed the body, not the soul, it's reasonable to assume (s)he did it just to gloat and taunt Mama Dragon (because evulz). Surely there were massive houserulings on Familicide, and one of those was probably that anyone may be the focal target of the spell (or that a dead body may be the focus), even if they are immune to its final effects, and that's why Mama Dragon's Undead Head could be the focus.

That raises an interesting situation, because, going back to my original question, even if a god would be immune to the death effect, it could affect his/her mortal children, if he/she had any. For gods who are ascended mortals in this world, and thus may have left some family, it poses some threat.

[Jay R]

I really like the idea of doctrinal flexibility when it comes to Loki rubbing things in Thor's face specifically.

[Fyraltari]

I really like the idea of doctrinal flexibility when it comes to Loki rubbing things in Thor's face specifically.

And I like the fact that he is using this rule to ally with Thor rather than gloat after defeating him. Dude is finding loopholes in his own metaphysical constraints.

[Skull the Troll]

First, {Scrubbed}.
Second, no, I am not. Dracula is a villain from long ago.
The nineties on the other hand are still further back than

Which was my point.

My apologies, it was intended to be humorous. I didn't intend any disrespect.

[Squire Doodad]

And I like the fact that he is using this rule to ally with Thor rather than gloat after defeating him. Dude is finding loopholes in his own metaphysical constraints.

If you can't find loopholes in your own loopholes, how do you explain every single pop-culture Loki?

[RatElemental]

Surely there were massive houserulings on Familicide, and one of those was probably that anyone may be the focal target of the spell (or that a dead body may be the focus), even if they are immune to its final effects, and that's why Mama Dragon's Undead Head could be the focus.

On the contrary I'm quite sure there were no house rules used in the creation of familicide at all. Partly because the giant probably didn't use any rules at all to make it, and partly because even if he did each epic spell is unique unto itself and the system has (almost) limitless flexibility by design.

But mostly because there is no SRD familicide spell printed anywhere, the giant made it up just as he did the microcosm trap.