OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread

[Psyren]

I'm not sure the term "houserule" has much meaning for rules that are wholly custom anyway. They all are in a sense.

In the same strip, Hel specifically talks about collecting millions of souls and her winnings from the bet; in a way that makes little sense unless she'd be winning something other than the souls she's collecting.

Hmm. Maybe "who can end up in a higher echelon of the pantheon?"

[Peelee]

If you can't find loopholes in your own loopholes, how do you explain every single pop-culture Loki?

I solve that problem by ignoring pop-cultire Loki.

Hmm. Maybe "who can end up in a higher echelon of the pantheon?"

I'm wondering if the wager was that winner gets to have one of the losers domains. Imean.... Kinda hard to imagine what the gods may have to gamble with.

[Squire Doodad]

I'm wondering if the wager was that winner gets to have one of the losers domains. Imean.... Kinda hard to imagine what the gods may have to gamble with.

Aside from souls, I'm drawing a blank. Not sure why Hel would be ecstatic about getting one of Thor's domains though (unless you mean territory in the afterlife).

[Peelee]

Aside from souls, I'm drawing a blank. Not sure why Hel would be ecstatic about getting one of Thor's domains though (unless you mean territory in the afterlife).

Nah, I mean like death or disease or secrets or stuff like that, and the associated clerical powers that go along with it. Makes a deity more appealing to clerics, as well as more powerful; imagine if Thor was in charge of making the undead in the North, there could be all sorts of good and helpful vampires running around!

I dunno, I'm just throwing it against the wall to see if it sticks.

[Schroeswald]

They could trade like artifacts, pets or turns in creating the next world.

[JT]

I solve that problem by ignoring pop-cultire Loki.


I'm wondering if the wager was that winner gets to have one of the losers domains. Imean.... Kinda hard to imagine what the gods may have to gamble with.

“The loser needs to do the winner’s bidding for His/Her first three turns when creating the next world.”

There could also be wagers involving what a losing God’s clerics are to preach regarding the winner. Change some of the “belief” nourishment.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'd guess it's giving up a first round pick in the build a new world draft party. Maybe a second and third rounder too.

[Agemegos]

[random hero who loses their arm as a side effect of their victory]

Tyr?

Fafhrd?

Nuada?

[D.One]

On the contrary I'm quite sure there were no house rules used in the creation of familicide at all. Partly because the giant probably didn't use any rules at all to make it, and partly because even if he did each epic spell is unique unto itself and the system has (almost) limitless flexibility by design.

But mostly because there is no SRD familicide spell printed anywhere, the giant made it up just as he did the microcosm trap.

I'm not sure the term "houserule" has much meaning for rules that are wholly custom anyway. They all are in a sense.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm pretty sure The Giant didn't give a demon cockroach of damm to the Epic Spell rules when he created Familicide (or the microcosm trap). Those spells did what they needed to to do, and they fit the setting and the story well.

When I talk about "houserules", it's only because I'm talking from a RAW perpective, and I'm only talking from a RAW perspective because I was discussing if hypothetically it could affect gods or their lineage.

But yes, of course, there's no "Familicide" spell on RAW, at least not that I have seen.

[georgie_leech]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm pretty sure The Giant didn't give a demon cockroach of damm to the Epic Spell rules when he created Familicide (or the microcosm trap). Those spells did what they needed to to do, and they fit the setting and the story well.

When I talk about "houserules", it's only because I'm talking from a RAW perpective, and I'm only talking from a RAW perspective because I was discussing if hypothetically it could affect gods or their lineage.

But yes, of course, there's no "Familicide" spell on RAW, at least not that I have seen.

Sure, but in this case, the answers depend on what you think the base rules are. Which we don't have access to, and which are up for debate. Like, when I read DStP, I thought the Mama Dragon lived not because of Undead being immune to Death effects or whatever, but because Familicide seemed like a spell you use to rub in your enemy's face how thoroughly they've screwed up in challeging you; the spell leaves the target alive and instead kills off their entire family line. This is to show that there are multiple consistent explanations for observed behavior of the spell. Because we only have a sample size of 1, we can't go about logically deducing the base rules beyond those that are specifically shown, which don't elaborate on the underlying mechanisms for the spell at all.

So hypothetically your question becomes "If we assume Familicide operates under this rule system I suggested, what happens?" Which is less concrete than what RAW implies.

[Particle_Man]

Sure, but in this case, the answers depend on what you think the base rules are. Which we don't have access to, and which are up for debate. Like, when I read DStP, I thought the Mama Dragon lived not because of Undead being immune to Death effects or whatever, but because Familicide seemed like a spell you use to rub in your enemy's face how thoroughly they've screwed up in challeging you; the spell leaves the target alive and instead kills off their entire family line. This is to show that there are multiple consistent explanations for observed behavior of the spell. Because we only have a sample size of 1, we can't go about logically deducing the base rules beyond those that are specifically shown, which don't elaborate on the underlying mechanisms for the spell at all.

1 so far! Dun-dun-DUN!

[The Pilgrim]

My impression with Familicide has always been that the spell effect is to obliterate everyone related to the Target, not the Target. So I didn't find odd that MBD was not affected by it.

My impression was that the spell's primary purpose was to make the target suffer. Killing it would diminise the effect. As much as "Darth" V rationalized the use of the spell for "practical" purposes (to avoid anyone from going after her to avenge MBD), the truth is that she did it driven by sadism and the feeling of total omnipotence. I mean, given the amount of overkill the spell produces, it can't have any other purpose than to make the caster feel like a God in Total Control. And for that, keeping your plaything alive and gloat at her/his despair is part of the desired effect.

If you come to think about it, the spell really lacks any real practical purpose. It kills thousands of people who don't even know the target exists, and thus wouldn't seek revenge for it's demise, but leaves untouched all the target's friends, colleagues, people bound to the target trough relations of patronage... a lot of people that would certainly look for revenge. It killed Tarquin's wife and left him untouched. Had Tarquin not been a total jerkass and had him actually loved his wife in any real sense of the world "love", he would seek to avenge her. And even though Tarquin is a total jerkass, he would still seek to kill V if he ever knew V was the one responsible for his 9th wife's demise. So, the spell actually increases the amount of people potentially wanting you dead. It's, thus, the kind of thing that only an evil person mad with her/his own power does, with the purpose of amusing him/herself with the feeling of total omnipotence.

I like to think that V realized that after discovering the full effect of her actions while under the splice, and felt like the s**t she is for having done it.

[RatElemental]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm pretty sure The Giant didn't give a demon cockroach of damm to the Epic Spell rules when he created Familicide (or the microcosm trap). Those spells did what they needed to to do, and they fit the setting and the story well.

When I talk about "houserules", it's only because I'm talking from a RAW perpective, and I'm only talking from a RAW perspective because I was discussing if hypothetically it could affect gods or their lineage.

But yes, of course, there's no "Familicide" spell on RAW, at least not that I have seen.

Yes, but there is in fact RAW mechanics laid out for how epic spells work, and each epic spell is explicitly a unique thing unto itself. They are all designed from the ground up using the same ruleset, even the example SRD ones, and are treated as being very personal to whoever casts them: IE, the only way to learn an epic spell is to research it for yourself or read a stone tablet someone else made in the process of researching a spell. A tablet that, mind you, doubles how hard it is to research and cast the spell, as well as how expensive it is to research.

A part of these rules, though, is an 'ad-hoc' mechanic that you can use to pretty much make a spell do anything you want as long as the DM agrees. It's kind of hard to house rule a system that explicitly is fundamentally open ended like that. That was my point.

Also, the microcosm trap wasn't epic magic.

[Thecommander236]

Like discworld's small gods? Could be. But the original theory was that gods may decide to not get involved with a world to protect their identity from being changed by believe. And even if you burn fuel slowly you still burn fuel and your decision to not get involved means you intentionally starve yourself to death. Also you decide to stay small and if being a small god means you are part of a mindless mass of energy you don't really have much of an identity so it would defeat the original point.

I don't know anything about Discworld, but maybe? I had in mind the C'tan from Warhammer 40K. They only started to starve when they started to feed exclusively off of souls instead of sun energy. And the only reason their diet changed was because they got incredibly strong bodies with all the Necrontyr's knowledge programmed into the bodies.

[Particle_Man]

If you come to think about it, the spell really lacks any real practical purpose. It kills thousands of people who don't even know the target exists, and thus wouldn't seek revenge for it's demise, but leaves untouched all the target's friends, colleagues, people bound to the target trough relations of patronage... a lot of people that would certainly look for revenge.

Well we never got to see the other spells: Friendicide, Colleaguicide and Patronagicide.

[danielxcutter]

(snip)
My impression was that the spell's primary purpose was to make the target suffer. Killing it would diminise the effect. As much as "Darth" V rationalized the use of the spell for "practical" purposes (to avoid anyone from going after her to avenge MBD), the truth is that she did it driven by sadism and the feeling of total omnipotence. I mean, given the amount of overkill the spell produces, it can't have any other purpose than to make the caster feel like a God in Total Control. And for that, keeping your plaything alive and gloat at her/his despair is part of the desired effect.
(snip)

Well, Haerta's moniker was Destroyer of Hope, so there's that.

Yes, but there is in fact RAW mechanics laid out for how epic spells work, and each epic spell is explicitly a unique thing unto itself. They are all designed from the ground up using the same ruleset, even the example SRD ones, and are treated as being very personal to whoever casts them: IE, the only way to learn an epic spell is to research it for yourself or read a stone tablet someone else made in the process of researching a spell. A tablet that, mind you, doubles how hard it is to research and cast the spell, as well as how expensive it is to research.

A part of these rules, though, is an 'ad-hoc' mechanic that you can use to pretty much make a spell do anything you want as long as the DM agrees. It's kind of hard to house rule a system that explicitly is fundamentally open ended like that. That was my point.

Also, the microcosm trap wasn't epic magic.

I think the "Microcosm trap" was an example of Rich making things up from scratch which is different from house-ruling. I think.

I don't know anything about Discworld, but maybe? I had in mind the C'tan from Warhammer 40K. They only started to starve when they started to feed exclusively off of souls instead of sun energy. And the only reason their diet changed was because they got incredibly strong bodies with all the Necrontyr's knowledge programmed into the bodies.

Then again, they were pretty much ginormous celestial fart cows that grazed peacefully on suns until the Necrontryhards screwed around with them...

Yes, I got "Necrontryhards" from If The Emperor Had A Text To Speech Device. Sue me.

[Fyraltari]

I don't know anything about Discworld, but maybe?

Discworld gods begin life as small almost mindless spirit until they find some way to get a human to believe in them (The great and mighty Om used subtle cues to lead a sheep herder to a lost sheep. The man built a small shrine out of rocks to thank whatever spirit helped him and this gave Om enough strength to influence the man's dreams that night and so gained his first prophet) this first believer shapes the god's personnality. Gods who had a big following but lost it (generally because of a younger god aggressively taking over their flock) revert back to small almost mindless spirits but worse because they can remember who they used to be.

Also, because this is Discworld, it turns out that literally every single storm god is actually Blind Io with a variety of fake beards.

Also also, the god of evolution is an atheist and all of his followers are dead but he managed to go on regardless. Again, because this is Discworld.

[Worldsong]

Discworld gods begin life as small almost mindless spirit until they find some way to get a human to believe in them (The great and mighty Om used subtle cues to lead a sheep herder to a lost sheep. The man built a small shrine out of rocks to thank whatever spirit helped him and this gave Om enough strength to influence the man's dreams that night and so gained his first prophet) this first believer shapes the god's personnality. Gods who had a big following but lost it (generally because of a younger god aggressively taking over their flock) revert back to small almost mindless spirits but worse because they can remember who they used to be.

Also, because this is Discworld, it turns out that literally every single storm god is actually Blind Io with a variety of fake beards.

Also also, the god of evolution is an atheist and all of his followers are dead but he managed to go on regardless. Again, because this is Discworld.

I think Discworld was the first setting which introduced me to Gods Need prayer Badly. Although from how I read it with those gods the more distinct an impression the believers have of a god the more it defines their actual abilities and nature, but it's not a permanent thing so if the belief in said god becomes more vague again it also opens up more possibilities. Om certainly didn't sound like he remained the same as his original self after his return to power.

Although I also liked Gunnerkrigg's approach, which is a bit broader and somehow completely messes up cause and effect in a way which makes sense to me even if I couldn't hope to explain it in a way which sounds logical.

[Squire Doodad]

Although I also liked Gunnerkrigg's approach, which is a bit broader and somehow completely messes up cause and effect in a way which makes sense to me even if I couldn't hope to explain it in a way which sounds logical.

All of the gods are just Jones thinking about things and affecting the Ether and then humans pop up to maintain the interesting ones.

[Doug Lampert]

All of the gods are just Jones thinking about things and affecting the Ether and then humans pop up to maintain the interesting ones.

IMAO: Jones is the Earth elemental like Annie is the Fire elemental.

Fires come and go, they're transient but create more fires, thus the fire elemental lives and dies, leaving behind a successor. Jones is permanent, because Earth is permanent.

[Squire Doodad]

IMAO: Jones is the Earth elemental like Annie is the Fire elemental.

Fires come and go, they're transient but create more fires, thus the fire elemental lives and dies, leaving behind a successor. Jones is permanent, because Earth is permanent.

We're getting a bit off topic, but if Star Wars isn't much of an issue then this shouldn't be too much so:

Annie is able to wield fire, and the fire is a part of her. Jones was apparently born of the earth, but cannot use the Ether in any way; instead, the river that Annie peers into flows around her. Jones doesn't seem to have any abilities that would distinguish her as an Earth elemental as opposed to just being an eternal entity of an unknown kind.

Personally, I'd say that Jones is more a representative of the planet, not affiliated with anything elemental but rather the physical counterpart to the Ether for the world. Or perhaps she is the inherent human mind, the logic and information driven aspect, as opposed to the otherworldly beings like Coyote that manifest in the form of creativity and dreams.

[Corian]

It has taken me a long while to begin to appreciate how philology fits into all of this, but a recent book I read about tying together proto Indo European Languages, the Wheel, horses, and the movements of people got a few things to click

Ok, sounds absolutely fascinating. Title, pretty please?

[Wizard_Lizard]

Well we never got to see the other spells: Friendicide, Colleaguicide and Patronagicide.

and patroNAGAcide....

[Squire Doodad]

and patroNAGAcide....

Let's not start this up again

Side note: anyone else notice how its the Death gods that seem to be coming up with uber plans to take over their pantheons?
Hel has the "ride the wave of dead dwarf souls" plan, while Nergal had Malack's "Conveyor belt of corpses" idea.
I wonder if that's coincidental or because of those two god's particular line of thinking.

[danielxcutter]

In Nergal's case, Malack probably just came up with that on his own and Nergal was like "sure, that's nice".

[Riftwolf]

I remember some people were speculating it hit you with a massive amount of Negative levels; enough to instantly kill anything not immune to it, which is why Zombie Momma Dragon survived until V re-disintegrated her. SO if that was the case, 90 or so negative levels would kill even the Deities & Demigod gods, if they weren't immune to level drain. (I think the quoted bit says they are if that's the same thing as energy drain).

Either way, pretty matter no matter what metric you use to kill mortals, it's going to be hard to pull off on a God.

The way I read ABD surviving Familicide was that's a feature, not a bug. It kills entire families; except *you*. It's not a spell for winning a fight, it's a spell for punishing someone with the audacity to attack you. You dare to fight an Epic Necromancer and expect only *your* life to be forfeit? Guess again and walk forever alone, weakling.

[Squire Doodad]

The way I read ABD surviving Familicide was that's a feature, not a bug. It kills entire families; except *you*. It's not a spell for winning a fight, it's a spell for punishing someone with the audacity to attack you. You dare to fight an Epic Necromancer and expect only *your* life to be forfeit? Guess again and walk forever alone, weakling.

Yeah...if you wanted to do "kill this guy", there are hundreds of ways you could do it with a lower level spell slot. Even with an Epic slot, you could easily have it be "Supreme 'blot off the face of the Earth'". No need to kill anyone else, less clean up and you don't need to risk someone screwing with the distance like with an AoE (it happened once, long story).
Familicide? Familicide is to make them suffer.

[Riftwolf]

If you come to think about it, the spell really lacks any real practical purpose. It kills thousands of people who don't even know the target exists, and thus wouldn't seek revenge for it's demise, but leaves untouched all the target's friends, colleagues, people bound to the target trough relations of patronage...

In a large enough world with plenty of migration, yes, Familicide doesn't finish the job. In a smaller world, for instance one with tightly-knit tribal clans, it'd wipe them off the map, like, yknow, what happened in-comic to the Draketooths. For Emperors and Kings, it'd be a horror show, especially if the 'target survives' clause is true (as someone stated, sample size of 1 isn't big enough to know the exact details); then you'd get Scar making deals with Haerta to wipe out Mufasa, Simba, and possibly every other lion on Pride Rock.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

you'd get Scar making deals with Haerta to wipe out Mufasa, Simba, and possibly every other lion on Pride Rock.

Including Scar himself, which seems to be the kind of detail that'd stop Scar from making that deal?

Grey Wolf

[Schroeswald]

Including Scar himself, which seems to be the kind of detail that'd stop Scar from making that deal?

Grey Wolf

If the 'target survives' clause is true (as someone stated, sample size of 1 isn't big enough to know the exact details); then you'd get Scar making deals with Haerta to wipe out Mufasa, Simba, and possibly every other lion on Pride Rock.

Emphasis mine, Scar would make that if the spell indeed does let Scar live as has been theorized.