OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread

[Squire Doodad]

Including Scar himself, which seems to be the kind of detail that'd stop Scar from making that deal?

Grey Wolf

If you are included in the chain and just want mass death of your...ah, target demographic, you can simply use yourself as the starting point to avoid dying. It gets more complicated if you also want your victim alive.

Also, remember the "causally killing many lives with just a thought" thing? Pretty sure that the "thought" was Hareta testing out Familicide on a random passerby on a whim.

[The Pilgrim]

In a large enough world with plenty of migration, yes, Familicide doesn't finish the job. In a smaller world, for instance one with tightly-knit tribal clans, it'd wipe them off the map, like, yknow, what happened in-comic to the Draketooths. For Emperors and Kings, it'd be a horror show, especially if the 'target survives' clause is true (as someone stated, sample size of 1 isn't big enough to know the exact details); then you'd get Scar making deals with Haerta to wipe out Mufasa, Simba, and possibly every other lion on Pride Rock.

After re-reading the Giant's explanation on how Familicide works, I think you are falling short on the expected body count. If cast on an human in our world, it would exterminate all mankind, as we all share a common amcestor. If cast on an human of the OOTS world, however, the effects might be contained to just one continent.

[danielxcutter]

After re-reading the Giant's explanation on how Familicide works, I think you are falling short on the expected body count. If cast on an human in our world, it would exterminate all mankind, as we all share a common amcestor. If cast on an human of the OOTS world, however, the effects might be contained to just one continent.

I believe that said post also mentions that if the initial Familicide had been cast on a human or a member of a similarly short-living race, the body toll would have been even higher than V's use of it on the ABD.

[The Pilgrim]

So, in the end, a spell that has a very high chance of wiping out the caster as part of the effect, is a very unpractical spell to cast. For the mere effects of terrorizing a clan group, it would have been more practical to develope it with more limited constraints - limiting the first step of the spell to four-degree blood relatives (second-cousins), for example. Enough to obliterate an aristocratic lineage or a whole village, with small chance of wiping out yourself.

[Kantaki]

So, in the end, a spell that has a very high chance of wiping out the caster as part of the effect, is a very unpractical spell to cast. For the mere effects of terrorizing a clan group, it would have been more practical to develope it with more limited constraints - limiting the first step of the spell to four-degree blood relatives (second-cousins), for example. Enough to obliterate an aristocratic lineage or a whole village, with small chance of wiping out yourself.

I don't think terrorizing a clan group is the point of the spell.
Other, unrelated groups maybe, but that's more incidental.

No, the primary purpose of Familicide is to exterminate everyone even remotely related to your target, collateral damage be damned.

Would a more restrained version be safer, more practical?

Maybe, but I don't think someone who develops and/or uses a spell with the sole purpose of wiping out a entire bloodline down to the most distant relatives does restraint.

Or safe. Or practical for that matter.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Haerta did hit herself at some point.
Probably not with the first use and just as a secondary target, but I'm pretty sure her first words in the afterlife were „Oops”.

[The Pilgrim]

(...)
No, the primary purpose of Familicide is to exterminate everyone even remotely related to your target, collateral damage be damned.
(...)

And, as I explained on a previous post, it fails at doing that, as it leaves untouched the Target's friends, colleagues, patrons or benefactors (for example, target may be an adopted orphan child whose surrogate parents will want to avenge, or may have an adopted orphan child who will seek revenge on whoever killed his/her surrogate parent), etc...

[Xihirli]

Wait. Are you saying Familicide was a poor decision?

[factotum]

Quite. I don't think anything we've seen suggests Familicide was ever a good spell to cast. Haerta was probably happy with it because anyone it DIDN'T kill who came looking for her would not likely have been a match for her at any level. Oh, and I'm pretty sure she could have included "Don't target me" as part of the spell--it wasn't necessary for V to spell out exactly how it all worked, and in fact, we only really know the specifics because the Giant told us them on the forums, rather than from V's description.

[The Pilgrim]

Wait. Are you saying Familicide was a poor decision?

Only on tuesdays and fridays,

[hroþila]

And, as I explained on a previous post, it fails at doing that, as it leaves untouched the Target's friends, colleagues, patrons or benefactors (for example, target may be an adopted orphan child whose surrogate parents will want to avenge, or may have an adopted orphan child who will seek revenge on whoever killed his/her surrogate parent), etc...

I agree. I think that the point of the spell was disproportionate retribution. V's attempts at rationalization and justification are a different matter.

[Emanick]

Haerta was probably happy with it because anyone it DIDN'T kill who came looking for her would not likely have been a match for her at any level.

I have a hard time imagining even the people it did kill being a match for her. She must have been, what, level 30-something? 40-something? How does one even become that powerful in the OOTSverse? Do you just fight demon lords? Take on a bunch of solars at once?

[mjasghar]

I have a hard time imagining even the people it did kill being a match for her. She must have been, what, level 30-something? 40-something? How does one even become that powerful in the OOTSverse? Do you just fight demon lords? Take on a bunch of solars at once?

Oots world seems to be overflowing with XP sources since we have Srcibble lot all ending up epic. And Xykon able to wipe out angelic hosts with a single meteor spell.
And there’s all the rejects from the Order auditions.
It’s not clear though wether the spliced souls were from this world as the terminology was about one of them conquering worlds iirc

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I have a hard time imagining even the people it did kill being a match for her. She must have been, what, level 30-something? 40-something? How does one even become that powerful in the OOTSverse? Do you just fight demon lords? Take on a bunch of solars at once?

It is entirely possible that she was never alive in the first place. If you subscribe to the Omphalos theory of how the OotS was created (i.e. the gods, when they set up this world, provided the first creatures with houses, and government structures, memories and, yes, a bunch of already-dead powerful wizards who wrote the spells the living ones remember having learnt at universities they never in fact attended because that's the first day of the world), then Haerta might be one of those powerful wizards, like Bugsby.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

It is entirely possible that she was never alive in the first place. If you subscribe to the Omphalos theory of how the OotS was created (i.e. the gods, when they set up this world, provided the first creatures with houses, and government structures, memories and, yes, a bunch of already-dead powerful wizards who wrote the spells the living ones remember having learnt at universities they never in fact attended because that's the first day of the world), then Haerta might be one of those powerful wizards, like Bugsby.

Grey Wolf

I doubt the gods can create already-dead souls. What would they need living mortal for if they could make allready-processed food like that?

[Schroeswald]

It is entirely possible that she was never alive in the first place. If you subscribe to the Omphalos theory of how the OotS was created (i.e. the gods, when they set up this world, provided the first creatures with houses, and government structures, memories and, yes, a bunch of already-dead powerful wizards who wrote the spells the living ones remember having learnt at universities they never in fact attended because that's the first day of the world), then Haerta might be one of those powerful wizards, like Bugsby.

Grey Wolf

But she has a soul? Did they create a dead high-level soul for the fun of placing it in the possession of some NE arch-fiend who’s memory they just wiped?

EDIT:Ninja’d by Fyraltari

[mjasghar]

It is entirely possible that she was never alive in the first place. If you subscribe to the Omphalos theory of how the OotS was created (i.e. the gods, when they set up this world, provided the first creatures with houses, and government structures, memories and, yes, a bunch of already-dead powerful wizards who wrote the spells the living ones remember having learnt at universities they never in fact attended because that's the first day of the world), then Haerta might be one of those powerful wizards, like Bugsby.

Grey Wolf

Or previous worlds are retconned with previous casters rewritten and even turned into the shapes of the current world
We still have the issue that if this is traditional d&d a lot of souls end up as outsiders via archon path or various devil/demon paths
I strongly suspect laser snail didn’t encounter humanoid devas

[Schroeswald]

I strongly suspect laser snail didn’t encounter humanoid devas

What did he think Thor was? A bear with a robot arm that shot lightning? I mean that would be cool but probably impractical for the gods.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I doubt the gods can create already-dead souls. What would they need living mortal for if they could make allready-processed food like that?

If creating a dead souls provides less energy than it takes to create it - as I'd expect it would - then creating them gives them no food. But it gives a backstory that allows the real souls to develop better, in the same way a child develops better in the real world than trapped in a lab.

The alternative, of course, is that in a world of a few thousands years old, V, a member of a race capable of living a few thousand years, somehow does not know the adventures of Haerta and the rest, despite them having had to have happened in their actual living memory.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

If creating a dead souls provides less energy than it takes to create it - as I'd expect it would - then creating them gives them no food. But it gives a backstory that allows the real souls to develop better, in the same way a child develops better in the real world than trapped in a lab.

It can be as simple as just popping the first generation up as adults with some knowledge imprinted in their brains the same way Durkon* knew Zenith Peak's co-ordinates. There is no reason to lie about the age of the current world, and it doesn't seem like they have. They only hide that there were previous worlds.

The alternative, of course, is that in a world of a few thousands years old, V, a member of a race capable of living a few thousand years, somehow does not know the adventures of Haerta and the rest, despite them having had to have happened in their actual living memory.

Grey Wolf

V is not a thousand years old. What makes you think V did not know of them? V didn't ask any questions. And even iif V had never heard of them, so what? Ganonron apparently spent most of his time in other dimensions, Hearta killed a lot of people and Jephton has apparently nothing more note-worthy than "a powerful sorcerer" going on. Being a very powerful and evil caster does not automatically translates to being (in)famous as evidenced by the fact that Xykon is mostly unknown despite merrilly mass-mirdering his way everywhere for the better part of eight decades.

[goodpeople25]

If creating a dead souls provides less energy than it takes to create it - as I'd expect it would - then creating them gives them no food. But it gives a backstory that allows the real souls to develop better, in the same way a child develops better in the real world than trapped in a lab.

The alternative, of course, is that in a world of a few thousands years old, V, a member of a race capable of living a few thousand years, somehow does not know the adventures of Haerta and the rest, despite them having had to have happened in their actual living memory.

Grey Wolf

1. That sounds alot less ridiculous to me then what you seem to be going for. (And that's leaving my opinion of V out of it)
2. Pretty sure elves naturally live hundreds of years not thousands.

[brian 333]

What about souls left over from previous worlds kept around for such uses?

When a soul survives the destruction/creation cycle, the most depleted are used as a starter-culture in the new world to get some new souls growing quickly, but some stronger ones are saved in case the world needs destroying again to be the starter culture for the next. These souls can do extra duty as others have suggested, as heros of myth and legend or honored ancestors, or whatever.

[The Pilgrim]

If creating a dead souls provides less energy than it takes to create it - as I'd expect it would - then creating them gives them no food. But it gives a backstory that allows the real souls to develop better, in the same way a child develops better in the real world than trapped in a lab.

The alternative, of course, is that in a world of a few thousands years old, V, a member of a race capable of living a few thousand years, somehow does not know the adventures of Haerta and the rest, despite them having had to have happened in their actual living memory.

Grey Wolf

A D&D elf reaches adulthood at 110 years old, is considered middle age at 175 years, old at 263 years, and venerable at 350 years, with a maximum life expectancy of 750 years (350+4d100).

The relevant table is here.

V did state her age as 103 in the application form to join the Order, during "On the Origin of PCs". The Class and Level Geekery thread however states her age at 131+, because in the introduction of "War and XPs", Rich stated her age at "130?". Note the interrogation symbol. In any case, it's far less than "thousand years old".

[Skull the Troll]

Oots world seems to be overflowing with XP sources since we have Srcibble lot all ending up epic. And Xykon able to wipe out angelic hosts with a single meteor spell.
And there’s all the rejects from the Order auditions.
It’s not clear though wether the spliced souls were from this world as the terminology was about one of them conquering worlds iirc

All D&D worlds overflow with XP if you are the PC's. After all - the DM saying "You guys spend weeks travelling, and countless nights sitting in taverns but there isn't a single thing left to kill or quest for that is high enough to grant XP, guess we are done for tonight" ...makes for a poor game session. Just imagine, your level 18, every random encounter is 2-4 Kobolds. Every quest is "go clean the rats out of the sewer..." :)

[Emanick]

I doubt the gods can create already-dead souls. What would they need living mortal for if they could make allready-processed food like that?

This, more or less. I mean, I suppose living mortals could provide entertainment, and the Good gods, such as Thor, might want to create life for its own sake (unless they're antinatalists - I guess I could see, say, Marduk being some sort of Babylonian deity-version of Schopenhauer. But creating already-dead souls seems pointless unless it provides them with sustenance, and if they do provide sustenance, that makes the whole battle-for-the-souls-of-mortals thing that the OOTSverse gods seem to have going on rather a sideshow.

It is entirely possible that she was never alive in the first place. If you subscribe to the Omphalos theory of how the OotS was created (i.e. the gods, when they set up this world, provided the first creatures with houses, and government structures, memories and, yes, a bunch of already-dead powerful wizards who wrote the spells the living ones remember having learnt at universities they never in fact attended because that's the first day of the world), then Haerta might be one of those powerful wizards, like Bugsby.

Grey Wolf

A backstory I could easily buy, but creating the souls of the people from that backstory seems unnecessarily complicated. Even assuming you could create the soul of an already-dead person from a myth, why bother? It's not as if the mortals are going to interact with this person who supposedly died ages ago.

Oots world seems to be overflowing with XP sources since we have Srcibble lot all ending up epic. And Xykon able to wipe out angelic hosts with a single meteor spell.
And there’s all the rejects from the Order auditions.
It’s not clear though wether the spliced souls were from this world as the terminology was about one of them conquering worlds iirc

There's a big difference between being level 20-something (which Xykon and the Scribblers almost certainly were) and level 30-something (which Haerta seems to have been, at the least). At level 20-something, plenty of creatures in the Monster Manual can still give you XP. At level 30-something, pretty much nothing can. You might be able to get a smattering from a great wyrm red or gold dragon once in a while, but unless you're bringing the Epic Level Handbook into play, your choices for XP are limited. And once you do bring the ELH into play, a lot more questions arise - if there are CR 35 creatures running around, how come they don't rule the world? They're essentially unstoppable by any creatures short of the gods, and as a result, they raise the same questions that D&D gods do - namely, why they don't just address every world-shaking plot point themselves. And because they aren't gods, you can't even use the same real-world religious explanations that we can't discuss here to explain why there isn't a Hecatoncheires ruling over the planet, or why the world's force wyrms haven't gathered all the gold on the face of the earth into their hoards.

The best explanation is probably that Haerta got most of her epic XP in the Outer Planes. Most ELH creatures are extraplanar, because the planes have typically been portrayed as having "bigger" and "badder" creatures than the Prime Material. Even in Fifth Edition, which nerfed almost everything powerful (at least in comparison to 3.0 and 3.5), there are zillions of demon lords with challenge ratings in the mid-20s there. It's not too hard to believe that she conquered a few layers of Hell and got her XP from said conquests. Or something like that, anyway.

All D&D worlds overflow with XP if you are the PC's. After all - the DM saying "You guys spend weeks travelling, and countless nights sitting in taverns but there isn't a single thing left to kill or quest for that is high enough to grant XP, guess we are done for tonight" ...makes for a poor game session. Just imagine, your level 18, every random encounter is 2-4 Kobolds. Every quest is "go clean the rats out of the sewer..." :)

That's certainly true. But I sure hope Haerta was never a PC.

If creating a dead souls provides less energy than it takes to create it - as I'd expect it would - then creating them gives them no food. But it gives a backstory that allows the real souls to develop better, in the same way a child develops better in the real world than trapped in a lab.

The alternative, of course, is that in a world of a few thousands years old, V, a member of a race capable of living a few thousand years, somehow does not know the adventures of Haerta and the rest, despite them having had to have happened in their actual living memory.

Grey Wolf

Creating a mage powerful enough to cast a spell like Familicide seems like it would take an enormous amount of energy, even if creating a "dead soul" is actually possible. Hardly worthwhile when you could just as easily invent the legend of Haerta. I'm not sure why that would be insufficient if you wanted the souls of the "real" inhabitants to "develop better." Backstories are backstories, whether or not you create the soul of somebody who supposedly inhabited the backstory (but didn't actually do any of the things she allegedly did).

[HorizonWalker]

Also, elves don't live a few thousand years. They don't live one thousand years. They've got a few hundred, with a maximum of about 750 before they finally die of old age, and an average of about 550 years.

Source

[Particle_Man]

It can be as simple as just popping the first generation up as adults with some knowledge imprinted in their brains the same way Durkon* knew Zenith Peak's co-ordinates. There is no reason to lie about the age of the current world, and it doesn't seem like they have. They only hide that there were previous worlds.

And this is the world of "self-aware parody stick figures" so they could realize that they are the first generation without their brains imploding.

As for elves, I wonder how many live long enough to die of old age?

[Fyraltari]

Why would anybody’s brain implode by virtue of being the first generation? That would be what’s normal for them.

[factotum]

As for elves, I wonder how many live long enough to die of old age?

Most of them, I wouldn't wonder. The Elves seem to be a highly insular group who don't interfere in outside affairs if they can help it, and who have a highly defensible part of the Western Continent to call home. They didn't even bother trying to reclaim the island that V took the Azurite fleet to, because they have so little need of territory.

[Wizard_Lizard]

This, more or less. I mean, I suppose living mortals could provide entertainment, and the Good gods, such as Thor, might want to create life for its own sake (unless they're antinatalists - I guess I could see, say, Marduk being some sort of Babylonian deity-version of Schopenhauer. But creating already-dead souls seems pointless unless it provides them with sustenance, and if they do provide sustenance, that makes the whole battle-for-the-souls-of-mortals thing that the OOTSverse gods seem to have going on rather a sideshow.


A backstory I could easily buy, but creating the souls of the people from that backstory seems unnecessarily complicated. Even assuming you could create the soul of an already-dead person from a myth, why bother? It's not as if the mortals are going to interact with this person who supposedly died ages ago.


There's a big difference between being level 20-something (which Xykon and the Scribblers almost certainly were) and level 30-something (which Haerta seems to have been, at the least). At level 20-something, plenty of creatures in the Monster Manual can still give you XP. At level 30-something, pretty much nothing can. You might be able to get a smattering from a great wyrm red or gold dragon once in a while, but unless you're bringing the Epic Level Handbook into play, your choices for XP are limited. And once you do bring the ELH into play, a lot more questions arise - if there are CR 35 creatures running around, how come they don't rule the world? They're essentially unstoppable by any creatures short of the gods, and as a result, they raise the same questions that D&D gods do - namely, why they don't just address every world-shaking plot point themselves. And because they aren't gods, you can't even use the same real-world religious explanations that we can't discuss here to explain why there isn't a Hecatoncheires ruling over the planet, or why the world's force wyrms haven't gathered all the gold on the face of the earth into their hoards.

The best explanation is probably that Haerta got most of her epic XP in the Outer Planes. Most ELH creatures are extraplanar, because the planes have typically been portrayed as having "bigger" and "badder" creatures than the Prime Material. Even in Fifth Edition, which nerfed almost everything powerful (at least in comparison to 3.0 and 3.5), there are zillions of demon lords with challenge ratings in the mid-20s there. It's not too hard to believe that she conquered a few layers of Hell and got her XP from said conquests. Or something like that, anyway.


That's certainly true. But I sure hope Haerta was never a PC.


Creating a mage powerful enough to cast a spell like Familicide seems like it would take an enormous amount of energy, even if creating a "dead soul" is actually possible. Hardly worthwhile when you could just as easily invent the legend of Haerta. I'm not sure why that would be insufficient if you wanted the souls of the "real" inhabitants to "develop better." Backstories are backstories, whether or not you create the soul of somebody who supposedly inhabited the backstory (but didn't actually do any of the things she allegedly did).

Or maybe enough people believed in the legend of haerta so sje poppdd into existance..?

[KorvinStarmast]

Ok, sounds absolutely fascinating. Title, pretty please?

The Horse, the Wheel, and Language. David W Anthony. He ties together a bunch of different areas of study and arrives at a pretty well supported synthesis, even though he points to areas where specialists in various fields are at odds with his conclusions. When it came out part of the newness was how he wove some of the Soviet era archeology that had not been well woven into the larger fabric of that field of study.

In Nergal's case, Malack probably just came up with that on his own and Nergal was like "sure, that's nice".

For some reason, I don't see that as how the conversation went given Malack's prose style, but that made me grin.

All D&D worlds overflow with XP if you are the PC's. After all - the DM saying "You guys spend weeks travelling, and countless nights sitting in taverns but there isn't a single thing left to kill or quest for that is high enough to grant XP, guess we are done for tonight" ...makes for a poor game session. Just imagine, your level 18, every random encounter is 2-4 Kobolds. Every quest is "go clean the rats out of the sewer..." :)

Which is how D&D ends up with adventurers who do Plane Scape and Spell Jammer ... "this world bores me, let's go and find challenge." (Also, see Roy and his Grandpa dealing with an evil party in celestia).

As to Haerta: no reason that she didn't, as an epic level evil wizard, end up in the evil planes as a result of growing powerful by traveling from world to world and plane to plane ... and then one day, making a boo boo. Rolling a one can happen, one supposes, even to an epic level wizard.