OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread

[deuterio12]

Yeah Loki brag about how you're going to totally kick Thor's ass. Because that worked so well all the times in the past you tried to take Thor on.

Huh, neat to get some godly character development: A reminder Loki is still evil, however nice he appears, and a nice little beat about how the gods, in a way, are both bound by and rely on mortals as much as mortals are bound by and rely on them.

"I want to save both the mortal world and my daughter!" Truly ultimate evil incarnate.

Next comic Loki shows up doing charity work in orphanages.

Loki can't tell the truth because mortal perception has bound his personality to restrictions

Then don't tell the truth.

Lie.

Make up some lie to get in Hel's good side. Nudge/manipulate her to another path besides self-destruction.

Don't just walk away silently.

but a mortal, Durkon, is the one who will save the world. The god/mortal relationship is a bit more even then we thought.

Not really. Mortals are still the slaves-food, being pulled by the god's strings and if Durkon failed plenty more from where that came from. From what we've seen anybody else from Durkon's clans would do just fine if not better.

And outside that, sure Durkon convinced a vampire to self-destruct, but Hylgia the highest priestess of Loki convinced a Thor cleric to sleep with her on their first night (while Durkon took multiple days) and then killed said Thor's cleric in front of his own party and got away with it. Send Hylgia instead to "negotiate" with Redcloak and she would have the goblin prophet eating out of her hand (if not other places) in no time.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That's a pretty well thought out set of motivations for Loki.

I'm feeling a little nervous for Thor though.... I mean... has he READ some of the early comics? Durkon's heart is absolutely in the right place, but the Order has been fumblin', stumblin', bumblin' for quite some time now.

Nice ELO reference. Ballad of Horace Wimp, IIRC.

[Fish]

If the gods are what their followers believe them to be, what do the goblins think The Dark One is? If they believe TDO is incapable of compromise with non-goblinoids, Thor’s mission for Durkon is doomed.

[Schroeswald]

If the gods are what their followers believe them to be, what do the goblins think The Dark One is? If they believe TDO is incapable of compromise with non-goblinoids, Thor’s mission for Durkon is doomed.

Durkon only needs to talk to Redcloak, who is not limited by mortal belief.

[RatElemental]

In fact the most famous rule in english language is wrong most of the time, because english is Chaotic Evil.

Uhhh.... i before e except after c, and when it's making an 'ay' sound?

Only word I know of that breaks that rule is weird, but it's a weird word.

[Schroeswald]

Uhhh.... i before e except after c, and when it's making an 'ay' sound?

Only word I know of that breaks that rule is weird, but it's a weird word.

First off, I'm not counting the second part because it doesn't rhyme but even no ay sounds and not counting variations:
leisure, heirs, forfeit, sovereign, feisty, heifer, Keith (does that count?), glacier, protein, ancient, society, sleight, seismic, neither, deity, financier, heist, science, etc.

[Dion]

First off, I'm not counting the second part because it doesn't rhyme but even no ay sounds and not counting variations:
leisure, heirs, forfeit, sovereign, feisty, heifer, Keith (does that count?), glacier, protein, ancient, society, sleight, seismic, neither, deity, financier, heist, science, etc.

Yah, I gotta give mad props to my third grad teacher for coming up with that “rule”.

[Peelee]

Basically the entire world: This looks like it should be called "ananas".
English: "Pineapple it is, then."

I mean, what the ****, English? They have nothing to do with pine trees.

Yeah, those crazy English.

Well, and Spanish. And Welsh. Filipino. Afrikaans. Actually quite a few others, this isn't like the metric divide at all.

[redwizard007]

Who'd have thought Loki would be such a supportive father?

[JumboWheat01]

English is weird because we steal words and usage from other languages and try to make it all work in one.

[Squire Doodad]

English is weird because we steal words and usage from other languages and try to make it all work in one.

And then those Spaniards come in and take our words back!

Iceberg!

Something I noticed the other day is that the way that lengua and lenguaje typically mean "tongue" and "language" (though "idioma" is far more for Spanish common in my experience) is a bit like the English "tongue" versus "tongues".

[Schroeswald]

Yah, I gotta give mad props to my third grad teacher for coming up with that “rule”.

I before e, except after c, except when it's March, or early July, and sometimes Tuesdays, when anything flies (I feel like I've heard the march part before but this was mostly me.

[RatElemental]

"I want to save both the mortal world and my daughter!" Truly ultimate evil incarnate.

More like "I'm sacrificing my daughter so we can use this world to lock away the only thing we're afraid of. If you screw that up and she dies for nothing I will take revenge for that."

Then don't tell the truth.

Lie.

"Honesty" is a broader concept than "not lying." If Loki tells the truth in the cause of trickery, he is still not being honest. Walking back in there and laying his cards on the table and coming clean requires more than just not lying, it requires total honesty. And thus he cannot do it.

In other words: Loki can tell the truth to deceive someone, but he wouldn't be wanting to deceive Hel in this instance—so he can't tell the truth. It also means that he couldn't find some way to lie for the purposes of genuinely enlightening her. His intent matters more than the truth value of the words coming out of his mouth.

[Gift Jeraff]

One interesting thing about Loki's words about how the gods work:

They serve to confirm something about Dvalin. It's not just that he want to follow procedure and ask the council what to do. It's not that he chose to adhere to whatever the council votes within procedure. It's just that he can't do otherwise.

I was about to post exactly this.

[Psychronia]

Then don't tell the truth.
Lie.
Make up some lie to get in Hel's good side. Nudge/manipulate her to another path besides self-destruction.
Don't just walk away silently.

That...is a good point. Loki can't be honest, but he can still take the dishonest route of manipulating people into doing and feeling what he wants.
Heck, maybe he can even manipulate them into finding the truth "for his own ends", right? Maybe that's too close to honesty or still wouldn't work because the spirit of intent matters.

Either way, it's a moot point for Hel specifically because she might muck things up if she knew at this point.

And outside that, sure Durkon convinced a vampire to self-destruct, but Hylgia the highest priestess of Loki convinced a Thor cleric to sleep with her on their first night (while Durkon took multiple days) and then killed said Thor's cleric in front of his own party and got away with it. Send Hylgia instead to "negotiate" with Redcloak and she would have the goblin prophet eating out of her hand (if not other places) in no time.

Did you just suggest we depend on Hilgya's diplomacy to save the world? If the other party in question wasn't Redcloak, I'd say that Miko would have an equal chance of success.

[jwhouk]

This almost looks like it would be the epic place to end the book... but I suspect the Giant has other plans.

[jokem]

Huh, neat to get some godly character development: A reminder Loki is still evil, however nice he appears, and a nice little beat about how the gods, in a way, are both bound by and rely on mortals as much as mortals are bound by and rely on them. Loki can't tell the truth because mortal perception has bound his personality to restrictions, but a mortal, Durkon, is the one who will save the world. The god/mortal relationship is a bit more even then we thought.

Last I checked Loki resided in Pandemonium, which makes him more chaotic than evil. So he might do something for the fun of it, he also might tell the truth if it serves his agenda. He is also not willing to serve the goals of he who wishes the destruction of the universe. (Don't know if I am allowed to say the name of Th****un, so I will not).

Recall Belkar is chaotic evil as well, but has been known to do things to benefit the party as well. I still claim Belkar has moved to chaotic neutral, or at least hovering on the cusp of that.

[Rogar Demonblud]

This almost looks like it would be the epic place to end the book... but I suspect the Giant has other plans.

With the numbers given there are another 10-12 pages to go.

[Inmate XIII]

I take it all back. Loki is just a ****.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

It's a fictional world, so obviously it can have any population that the author wants, but the pre-industrial population of our world peaked at about half a billion, so my head canon has the population of all thinking peoples in the OOTS world at or below that level. So it requires that they all believe in Loki and believe he's incapable of telling the truth.
So, I'm going to say it's hyperbole from Loki - just because he can tell the truth to Thor doesn't mean he does, so there's no need to take his believer estimates as even remotely accurate.

A) Healing magic probably means a higher population peak, even with horrible death monsters to counterbalance the ability to magically cure disease.
B) Why wouldn't everyone believe in Loki? Not follow him, believe in him. That the gods exist and meddle with the world is a provable fact in this setting.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, human(oid) population is only a piece of it. There's also the dragons, winterwolves, displacer beasts, flumphs, etc, plus the oceans are fully open to settlement by aquatic species.

[Krizak]

Well, then. Loki certainly proved how clever he is here, pulling the wool over not only Thor's eyes, but everyone here in the forum.

At the beginning of this cycle, Loki set up a sure bet in his favour, or rather, in his daughter's favour, and Thor still hasn't figured it out. It doesn't matter how many dwarves die heroically over the course of the cycle; in the end, just like every cycle beforehand, the Snarl will break free and either consume the world or force the gods to unmake the world beforehand, and all the living dwarves will still fall into Hel's clutches, bolstering her power. Loki set up a bet that his daughter was guaranteed to win, because why would he ever set up a fair wager?

The only reason he stopped Hel from winning right now is because, as he says, stopping the Snarl is a much bigger win, even if it's a win for everyone. But if the Snarl isn't stopped, Hel still wins eventually, no matter what. And Thor still hasn't figured that out, so Loki will lie to his face about it and then say that the "rub it in your face" loophole means what he's saying is the truth. Loki acted the part of a concerned father, flew off with his threat, and then crashed on his couch at home, laughing his head off on how the blonde fool still doesn't get it.

[Tvtyrant]

Well, then. Loki certainly proved how clever he is here, pulling the wool over not only Thor's eyes, but everyone here in the forum.

At the beginning of this cycle, Loki set up a sure bet in his favour, or rather, in his daughter's favour, and Thor still hasn't figured it out. It doesn't matter how many dwarves die heroically over the course of the cycle; in the end, just like every cycle beforehand, the Snarl will break free and either consume the world or force the gods to unmake the world beforehand, and all the living dwarves will still fall into Hel's clutches, bolstering her power. Loki set up a bet that his daughter was guaranteed to win, because why would he ever set up a fair wager?

The only reason he stopped Hel from winning right now is because, as he says, stopping the Snarl is a much bigger win, even if it's a win for everyone. But if the Snarl isn't stopped, Hel still wins eventually, no matter what. And Thor still hasn't figured that out, so Loki will lie to his face about it and then say that the "rub it in your face" loophole means what he's saying is the truth. Loki acted the part of a concerned father, flew off with his threat, and then crashed on his couch at home, laughing his head off on how the blonde fool still doesn't get it.

If the Snarl eats the world it eats the souls too, so no go on that one.

[SerenaRaeyld]

I before e, except after c, except when it's March, or early July, and sometimes Tuesdays, when anything flies (I feel like I've heard the march part before but this was mostly me.

Ahem.

The proper form of the rule is:

“I" before "E" except after "C" and when sounding like "A" as in neighbor and weigh, and on weekends and holidays and all throughout May, and YOU'LL ALWAYS BE WRONG NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY!!!!”

-Brian Regan*

"Stupid in School" available on YouTube.

Katt.

[Peelee]

If the Snarl eats the world it eats the souls too, so no go on that one.

Which is why Hel's plan is to destroy the world before the Snarl gets to them. Which, I assume, became SOP after the first few worlds failed. The timing is all they worry about; getting that wrong messes it up.

[Tvtyrant]

Which is why Hel's plan is to destroy the world before the Snarl gets to them. Which, I assume, became SOP after the first few worlds failed. The timing is all they worry about; getting that wrong messes it up.

Loki even says he would have sided with Hel if not for the Dark One. That hobbyist of gobbos really threw a spanner in the normal procedures.

[georgie_leech]

Let this be a lesson to everyone: Geez I can never make a half-decent prediction to save my life.

Says the founder of the Church of the Sudden Skylight.

[happycrow]

I fear a very important (if not particularly important to the story) question is being overlooked in this discussion:

Where did Hel *get* that hustle, if she apparently lacked it before to the extent that Loki felt things needed to be seriously spiced up with a crazy bet?
What belief or believers are giving her that extra hustle and motivation (besides one giant demigod who totally believes in her)?

[Emanick]

I fear a very important (if not particularly important to the story) question is being overlooked in this discussion:

Where did Hel *get* that hustle, if she apparently lacked it before to the extent that Loki felt things needed to be seriously spiced up with a crazy bet?
What belief or believers are giving her that extra hustle and motivation (besides one giant demigod who totally believes in her)?

Oh, it’s all Thrym. Totally just him. His pure, unselfish love alone is giving Hel the strength to power through and hustle her way up to Queen of the Northern Pantheon. All hail Good Guy Thrym!

[Jasdoif]

What belief or believers are giving her that extra hustle and motivation (besides one giant demigod who totally believes in her)?

The belief that she had to work for it if she wanted to make it happen. Motivation is a powerful thing.