OOTS #1179 - The Discussion Thread

[Schroeswald]

Each cleric is attended by two bodyguards, which is how they got Roy and Belkar in. And as a favored soul, Veldrina can spam any spell she knows, including the healing ones.

You are correct that each of the clerics (and Veldrina) can each have two bodyguards, which I forgot, however the count of seen bodyguards is nine (Wrecan, Half-orc woman, armor lady, Redbeard with kilt, Sideshave lady, black dwarf, Ponytail lady, Viking helmet, blonde woman, and eyepatch dude) with 27 divine casters, 26 of which have bodyguards, 25 of which could feasibly have 2, making the highest number 50:27, but considering that at least some will only have one Priest (and if the balcony is balanced the ones of the main priests seem to be one each), it will be much less than two-thirds bodyguards.

The quick and dirty version of Favored Soul is a divine sorcerer. They can only cast from a small pool of spells known, and IIRC they're charisma-based casters. They also get a bunch of cool fighty whacky abilities.

Cool, btw is the favored soul class as messed up as sorcerers?

[NNescio]

Cool, btw is the favored soul class as messed up as sorcerers?

I am not sure what you mean by "messed up". In any case, Favored Souls are considered Tier 2 (same tier as the Sorcerer, making them sort of the Sorcerer to the Cleric's Wizard), but are also usually considered weaker than Sorcs because they draw from a weaker spell list (Cleric but worse), are MAD (multiple attribute dependent), and don't have the Sorcerer's powerful exclusives.

Also Favored Souls don't have access to domains (and domain powers), can't spontaneously convert spells (they can spontaneously cast, but some Cleric options require conversion), and cannot turn undead. This also denies them the usual Cleric cheese like Divine Metamagic and (trade-in) Devotion feats.

[Jasdoif]

Final Fantasy 8 is superior to Final Fantasy 7. Discuss.

Well, yeah. Not that FF7 wasn't great with all the various environments and such, but FF8 was all about characters and decisions. No, really; it's all about dealing with loss, and what you're willing to pay/become to get something back. Even the very beginning, where every guardian force has four basic command abilities and you can only have three equipped at a time, reinforces that you can't have everything; as does that you can only junction one spell to one stat at a time.

Also, Quistis is the patron saint of What-Is-Wrong-With-This-Protagonist supporting characters. And Blue Mages.

Rapid Metamagic feat, Complete Mage. Or Metamagic Specialist ACF, PHB-II, but that one is inferior and makes you MAD (IIRC it works only 3 + INT mod times per day. Yes, INT).

(Edit: Oh and Races of the Dragon also has Accelerate Metamagic, which is like Rapid Metamagic, but works only for one type of metamagic [chosen when picking the feat]. Sounds inferior, but it has much lower requirements so it can be taken at earlier levels.)

Also at high levels of optimization Sorcs are far superior at action economy because of Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic) and (Greater) Arcane Fusion (CM). The second spell is a Sorcerer exclusive, and is broken when combined with Sanctum Spell because it basically allows infinite (Level 1, or L4 for the Greater variant) spells in one cast. Alternatively it can be Twinned and/or Repeated for... less cheesy abuse of action economy — this latter part (Twinned/Repeated Arcane Fusion keyed to Orb spells) forms the centerpiece of the Mailman Sorcerer build.

It's true; late enough in the 3.5 development cycle, there are plenty of band-aids a sorcerer can spend build resources on to get to/past the point I feel a sorcerer should have been at as a baseline.

[Dion]

If Hel had any sense at all, she’s send Curly north to work with Xykon. That would get her allies closer to the last gate, and put them in a position to destroy once it’s found.

Hel could even use the pretense that the god of death and an undead epic level sorcerer are natural allies.

Heck, Xykon is already acting as an unwitting pawn for one god. There might as well be another in the mix.

Of course, I don't expect Hel to actually do anything smart of useful.

[Rogar Demonblud]

How would Curly get there? She doesn't have teleport and needs protection from the sun, so needs to spend a goodish chunk of the night looking for a place to hide for the day.

[Skull the Troll]

If Hel had any sense at all, she’s send Curly north to work with Xykon. That would get her allies closer to the last gate, and put them in a position to destroy once it’s found.

Hel could even use the pretense that the god of death and an undead epic level sorcerer are natural allies.

Heck, Xykon is already acting as an unwitting pawn for one god. There might as well be another in the mix.

Of course, I don't expect Hel to actually do anything smart of useful.

On top of which, it's the end of the arc. Hel is gone, just like Tarkin. For Curly to show back up it would have to have some sort of story where she gained a lot of power. The OotS literally just thwarted (some of) the gods, dozens of Vampires, and a tribe of Frost Giants. Curly doesn't appear as a blimp on the threat meter.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Blimp? Heck, she isn't even a speck, a dot, a blip even!

[Jasdoif]

Blimp? Heck, she isn't even a speck, a dot, a blip even!

Maybe. That said, we're talking about a last ditch effort after the failure of the fallback of the backup of the plan; this is certainly commensurate.

Also, destabilizing the last Gate (irregardless of Team Evil) would be one way to bring the importance of there being a planet inside the rift to the forefront; so if the story is heading in that direction, this isn't completely outlandish.

[Fyraltari]

Doylistly I find it very unlikely that should one of the vampires become a part of the last book it would be a random nameless spawn weaker vampires that Elan could take out without much effort (at-will Domination notwithstanding). If this were one of the Creed's vampires, maybe, but Curly here?

[JumboWheat01]

The quick and dirty version of Favored Soul is a divine sorcerer. They can only cast from a small pool of spells known, and IIRC they're charisma-based casters. They also get a bunch of cool fighty whacky abilities.

Kinda. While they learn Divine spells like a Sorcerer learns Arcane spells and are spontaneous casters, they have the oddity of requiring Wisdom to learn and cast spells (along with bonus spells per day,) but require Charisma in order to amp-up their spell DCs for any offensive use. MAD casting.

And while Clerics get domains to personalize their spell list to a degree, the ability to spontaneous convert prepared spells into cures/inflicts as well as Turn Undead, Favored Souls get proficiency, focus and specialization in their deity's favored weapon, making them decent martial combatants thanks to that, medium armor, shields, and the ability to just buff themselves whenever and more often than Clerics thanks to having more spell slots in a single day. They also get innate resistances of certain types, and wings.

They're weird creatures.

In short, I'd say they're better at being heal and support characters than their Cleric counterparts, but lack the flexibility. Sorta like how Sorcerers are generally thought of as blasters over Wizards, since damage will always be useful and it's harder to change their spells.

[The Pilgrim]

Heck, Xykon is already acting as an unwitting pawn for one god. There might as well be another in the mix.

I wouldn't be so sure about Xykon really being an unwitting pawn. I mean, he already distrusts Redcloak enough to have asked Tsukiko to study The Ritual, and her timely assasination by Redcloak only raised his suspicions more.

I wouldn't be surprised if, in the end, when Team Evil manages to seize the Last Gate, Xykon simply tells Redcloak that he is not going to perform the Arcane part of The Ritual. Because, True Power is not something you can put on or take off like a jacket, neither grab from some Eldritch Abomination you bind to your will with a stupid Ritual. After all, if you were Xykon, would you trust a Ritual whose real effects you have attempted to understand from studying the Arcane Part and failed? Xykon doesn't strikes me as the kind of guy that would awaken a power that he doesn't understands. I do not see him ending up like an Indiana Jones villian.

I can easly picture Xykon on my mind revealing, in the end, that he only followed The Plan to poke fun on Redcloak and to combat boredom. After all, the reason he joined the Plan the first time was because he was getting too old and wanted to leave a legacy of villany. But his finite lifespan is not a problem anymore after becoming a Lich. No rush to get fake ultimate power by enslaving an Eldritch Abomination, when he has all the time in the universe to become the Eldritch Abomination himself.

[Jasdoif]

Doylistly I find it very unlikely that should one of the vampires become a part of the last book it would be a random nameless spawn weaker vampires that Elan could take out without much effort (at-will Domination notwithstanding). If this were one of the Creed's vampires, maybe, but Curly here?

As of this very comic, they know a vampire escaped. If the Order doesn't chase her down, then any complications she causes can be traced back to their decision to leave her alone; the cause-and-effect connection could make it work. Alternatively...this very comic also reinforces that one vampire can create more vampires. And we've already seen her near Hilgya, whose abysmal resistance to domination has been noted; and she doesn't have Kudzu with her to make any sort of vocal objections.

So...you know, likelihood is less than "particularly likely" but better than "dismiss out of hand".

[Morgana]

So in this theory that Xykon doesn't actually want to control the gates he would have spend decades doing something that brings him no gain, including going through incredible lengths to find the journal, almost being destroyed by Soon, having his body completely destroyed by Roy and multiple other setbacks just cause he was bored? Even though he seems to be more annoyed than anything at the multiple steps to control the gates, and is consistently portrayed as wanting to rush things to get to the gates as fast as possible?

[Jasdoif]

So in this theory that Xykon doesn't actually want to control the gates he would have spend decades doing something that brings him no gain, including going through incredible lengths to find the journal, almost being destroyed by Soon, having his body completely destroyed by Roy and multiple other setbacks just cause he was bored? Even though he seems to be more annoyed than anything at the multiple steps to control the gates, and is consistently portrayed as wanting to rush things to get to the gates as fast as possible?

The one where a vampire destabilizes the last Gate? That pretty much just takes hitting the Gate well enough to damage it; after that, what Xykon wants doesn't really matter. All it really requires is Xykon and friends company finding (and clearing a path to) the last Gate, then either betrayal or infiltration could get a vampire in range.

[Morgana]

No, the theory that Pilgrim mentioned

[Schroeswald]

The one where a vampire destabilizes the last Gate? That pretty much just takes hitting the Gate well enough to damage it; after that, what Xykon wants doesn't really matter. All it really requires is Xykon and friends company finding (and clearing a path to) the last Gate, then either betrayal or infiltration could get a vampire in range.

It also means that Sabine doesn't need to return to give Haley someone to fight in the last battle (cause Belkar+companions get Oona+companions, Durkon gets Redcloak, Roy gets Xykon, V's out of the game for 20 minutes, and Elan plays bard songs).

[The Pilgrim]

So in this theory that Xykon doesn't actually want to control the gates he would have spend decades doing something that brings him no gain, including going through incredible lengths to find the journal, almost being destroyed by Soon, having his body completely destroyed by Roy and multiple other setbacks just cause he was bored? Even though he seems to be more annoyed than anything at the multiple steps to control the gates, and is consistently portrayed as wanting to rush things to get to the gates as fast as possible?

Xykon didn't shown mistrust for The Plan until his time in Gobbotopia, when he ordered Tsukiko to study the Ritual. Up until then, yes, he probably took the Plan seriously. But, after Gobbotopia?

He was annoyed by the events at Gobbotopia because they lead to him almost losing the phylactery, not because they delayed the completiton of the Plan. In fact he was happy to allow Redcloak play civic leader up until the Dark V incident make him realize that the whole Sim Goblin City affair was not only a huge waste of time, but one that was putting himself at a risk.

He didn't shown any annoyance when Giriard's exploded on his nose. He played along with MitD's arguments basically to annoy Redcloak. And he is not showing any annoyance by the long, tedious process of having to go door-to-door to find Kraagor's. Redcloak is, but Xykon? he is happy to be killing monsters powerful enough to let him win XP.

Does Xykon really looks to you like a man Lich anxious to get to the end of the Plan, right now?

[Ruck]

Castle Wolfstein was a lot better when it was still 2D. I pity the fools that have only played the 3D remake by Id Software.

Similarly to how I loved old graphic adventures with text input before point-and-click ruined the fun of writing snarky things in the input box!

You were the one who liked to discuss AP Bio, right?

Yes! (Renewed for season 3!) I must have missed your post.

[The Pilgrim]

Similarly to how I loved old graphic adventures with text input before point-and-click ruined the fun of writing snarky things in the input box!

I will just say one word: Ifnkovhgroghprm.

[Jasdoif]

I will just say one world: Ifnkovhgroghprm.

Instantum Illuminaris Abraxas. Followed with Lok Vah Koor for extra confusion.

[CriticalFailure]

Xykon can do plenty of things to make Redcloak suffer that don’t take 30 years. He already has done plenty to make him suffer. He also doesn’t tend to go for long plots when it comes to laughing at the pain of others.

[Gnoman]

I will just say one word: Ifnkovhgroghprm.

That's the result of Roberta Williams being a terrible game designer and Sierra not knowing what the world "playtesting" means. It isn't a problem inherent to the medium.

[The Pilgrim]

Xykon can do plenty of things to make Redcloak suffer that don’t take 30 years. He already has done plenty to make him suffer. He also doesn’t tend to go for long plots when it comes to laughing at the pain of others.

He also doesn't tend to go for aknowledging in public that a goblin has fooled him for the better part of 30 years. So if my theory ends up being correct (something we will not know for the next, like, five years, take or leave) I'm pretty sure that Xykon will pretend to have known all along, even if he only realized it in the last few weeks.

[CriticalFailure]

Oh, Xykon pretending to have known all along if he does cop on would make sense, I agree he wouldn’t admit that Redcloak had fooled him for 30 years. I doubt he’s figured it out completely though he’s clearly suspicious.

[The Pilgrim]

That's the result of Roberta Williams being a terrible game designer and Sierra not knowing what the world "playtesting" means. It isn't a problem inherent to the medium.

Those were the Heroic Ages of Video Game Development. The average videogame "company" was two guys and a personal computer. Roberta herself had to pose nude in a hot tub for the cover of an early game they produced because they didn't have money to hire models for the shot. Much less to get beta testers.

[Reboot]

...of the others only Veldrina isn’t a cleric...

Nope. Some of them are druids.

[Schroeswald]

Nope. Some of them are druids.

Well all the high priests are clerics (high priests and druids), so the only one that could be is Mr. Southern Representative or the bodyguards, and if any bodyguards are druids they could cast cure light wounds or higher level spells making them about as useful as the Neutral or Evil clerics here.

EDIT: Wait, I misread, apologies, some are druids, though which we have no clue (first guess is Freya)

[RatElemental]

Nope. Some of them are druids.

I'm not sure what about that strip implies there are druids at the godsmoot.

[Schroeswald]

I'm not sure what about that strip implies there are druids at the godsmoot.

Because I misread it:

Some of the high priests are druids.

[MossyMeow]

I'm not sure what about that strip implies there are druids at the godsmoot.

First panel. Veldrina wants Little Whiskers to stay behind because "some of the high priests are druids and they make him self-conscious." It's a bit of a blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment.