Order Cleric 1/Lore Bard 19: optimising spell selection

[OgataiKhan]

Hello everyone, I'm building a Lore Bard with an Order Cleric dip for Guidance, armour, and shields. This is my current spell selection, I'd like to hear your opinions about it and how to improve it.

Cleric:

0: Guidance, Toll the Dead, Sacred Flame
1: Bless, Healing Word, Detect Magic

Bard:

0: Minor Illusion, Light, Mage Hand, Message
1: Dissonant Whispers, Feather Fall
2: /
3: Hypnotic Pattern, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Dispel Magic, Bestow Curse, Counterspell (from the Azorius background)
4: Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Dimension Door
5: Animate Objects, Synaptic Static
6: Mass Suggestion
7: Forcecage
8: Glibness
9: True Polymorph

Magical Secrets:

Lvl 6: Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace/Fireball (depending on whether our Druid who can cast the former is still with us)
Lvl 10: Find Greater Steed, Wall of Force
Lvl 14: Conjure Celestial, Sickening Radiance
Lvl 18: Wish, Heroes' Feast/Absorb Elements (depending on whether our Druid who can cast the former is still with us)

Notable exclusions:

Faerie Fire: Competes with Bless as a party buff, which doesn't require a saving throw.

Heat Metal: Great spell, but the most difficult fights at higher levels are usually not against armour-clad humanoids, making it less useful later on than in the early game.

Hold Person/Monster: Save or suck, require concentration, against a powerful enemy they don't work and against a weak one they are weaker than Bless.

Silence: It's fun to silence spellcasters, but they can just move out of it if not grappled. Still a good spell if you have a good grappler and can make it work.

Second level spells: I honestly haven't found anything that I'd ever want to cast over Pass Without Trace or Spiritual Weapon. I'm open to suggestions in this regard.

What do you think of my selection? Anything I can change? If you suggest different spells please include what you would replace to make room.
Thank you for your help!

[diplomancer]

Unless your wis is at least 16, I would not take either Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead. Having better damage dice does not help you if your opponents make their saving throw. I would get light and mending instead, and vicious mockery instead of light for the bard.

Depending on how nice your DM is, phantasmal force is a great spell, especially since, once it hits, you can cutting words their checks to get out of it. Probably take out bestow curse for it. (Also, unless you are starting already at higher levels, you will need some good 2nd level spells before you get to level 6)

Not a big fan of sickening radiance. A safe 14th level pick is simulacrum.

[OgataiKhan]

Unless your wis is at least 16, I would not take either Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead. Having better damage dice does not help you if your opponents make their saving throw. I would get light and mending instead, and vicious mockery instead of light for the bard.

Depending on how nice your DM is, phantasmal force is a great spell, especially since, once it hits, you can cutting words their checks to get out of it. Probably take out bestow curse for it. (Also, unless you are starting already at higher levels, you will need some good 2nd level spells before you get to level 6)

Not a big fan of sickening radiance. A safe 14th level pick is simulacrum.

Thank you for your answer!

Sure, on the way to higher levels I'll definitely use things like Heat Metal, this is just the final list.

Sickening Radiance is there for the combo with Forcecage. It kills any boss not immune to exhaustion.
Simulacrum on the other hand is very strong but costs 1500 gp for each, money I could use for crafting/buying magic items instead (we are allowed to use the related Xanathar rules). I'd rather wait for Wish to create simulacra, it will make me weaker for a few levels but richer later on.

[Corran]

It would help knowing what the other players are playing.

But without knowing anything about that, here are some initial thoughts:

The thing that really sticks out to me, is your lvl 14 secret picks. Sickening radiance is too gimmicky (if you want to combine forcecage with sth, pick scatter instead) and situational to be of any real value, and I also think that there are better choices than conjure celestial. Simulacrum and crown of stars are the first spells that come to mind for this level, though there are other good choices.

Don't bother with toll the dead. Vicious mockery be better most of the time, if you take into account the difference in DC and the disadvantage it imposes on one attack. Sacred flame has a minor advantage in that it is different in that it targets dex saves and deals radiant damage, but I am not sold on it either. I think utility cantrips are a safer bet here.

Something to keep in mind about spiritual weapon, is that as a bard, you will want to open combats casting a leveled spell almost always. That will take away one round from spiritual weapon. It's not a bad spell still, but I am willing to bet that I can find a better choice for an additional magical secret pick once I know what the other players are playing.

Bless is a good spell, and a great fall back spell for half casters or gishes. As a fullcaster though, there will probably come a point in your level progression, where you will have appropriate concentration spells for most occasions you can anticipate. What I am saying, and that there will come a point where you will no longer need to keep bless prepared. I am holding a small reservation because I don't know what your allies will be.

[Reynaerde]

Second level spells: I honestly haven't found anything that I'd ever want to cast over Pass Without Trace or Spiritual Weapon. I'm open to suggestions in this regard.

Suggestion can be great outside of combat. Blindness/deafness is a great non-concentration debuff to consider.

Are you taking war caster?

[OgataiKhan]

It would help knowing what the other players are playing.

We have just lost our Druid a moment ago, the other remaining players are a Necromancer Wizard and a Battle Master Fighter with PAM and eventually GWM.

The thing that really sticks out to me, is your lvl 14 secret picks. Sickening radiance is too gimmicky (if you want to combine forcecage with sth, pick scatter instead) and situational to be of any real value, and I also think that there are better choices than conjure celestial. Simulacrum and crown of stars are the first spells that come to mind for this level, though there are other good choices.

I don't understand how can I combo Scatter with Forcecage, Scatter doesn't deal damage, am I missing something?
Also, is 2-shotting every boss not immune to exhaustion really gimmicky or situational? It's widely regarded as one of the strongest combos in the game.

Finally, Conjure Celestial is in my opinion the strongest spell in the game under level 9. Keep in mind that you can use it to summon a Couatl, and you can turn your Couatl into a Wereboar to infect yourself with lycanthropy. You gain a 17 in Str, +1 AC, immunity to nonmagical weapons and, if you choose to embrace the curse and your alignment matches the wereboar's alignment, you don't ever lose control over your character.
Moreover, you can turn your Couatl into a Pudding King from Out of the Abyss and use the Pudding King's own change shape ability to turn it into an Elder Oblex from Mordekainen's Tome of Foes, giving you a CR 10 ally.
Can any other free 7th level spell compete with all this?

Something to keep in mind about spiritual weapon, is that as a bard, you will want to open combats casting a leveled spell almost always. That will take away one round from spiritual weapon. It's not a bad spell still, but I am willing to bet that I can find a better choice for an additional magical secret pick once I know what the other players are playing.

Of course, Spiritual Weapon is there exclusively to allow me to deal decent damage without using concentration after I cast my main concentration spell.

[OgataiKhan]

Suggestion can be great outside of combat. Blindness/deafness is a great non-concentration debuff to consider.

Are you taking war caster?

Blindness/Deafness is great and I wish I had a free slot for it.

I am taking both War Caster and Resilient Con, given how reliant I am on concentration spells.

[diplomancer]

I think the most difficult decision for the Cleric 1/Bard X build is when to take the 1st level of cleric. There are good arguments for 1st, 6th, 7th and 18th character level.

[Corran]

I don't understand how can I combo Scatter with Forcecage, Scatter doesn't deal damage, am I missing something?

Scatter will allow you to teleport enemies inside the forcecage after you have positioned it (assuming barred version).

Also, is 2-shotting every boss not immune to exhaustion really gimmicky or situational? It's widely regarded as one of the strongest combos in the game.

Imo yes. If you cage sth, you can bypass it or kill it slowly with ranged attacks. If the caged enemy can teleport out then there is not much point using sickening radiance or using forcecage in the first place. I guess forcecage + sickening radiance has an advantage when the caged enemy has significant ranged attacks, no way out of the forcecage and also when there is no good cover (from terrain or one that you or an ally can create) to hide behind, but that's a small advantage to justify spending a magical secret for sickening radiance imo. It would be better if sickening radiance was a spell you could rely upon, but it's a spell that takes a lot of work to be useful on its own in the first place.

Moreover, you have a wizard in the party. Together you can pull off this sort of thing even earlier, eg with wall spells. Unless there is a need to solo, work with the wizard so that combined you can have such spells available. Use your magical secrets to get stuff that you are missing.

Finally, Conjure Celestial is in my opinion the strongest spell in the game under level 9. Keep in mind that you can use it to summon a Couatl, and you can turn your Couatl into a Wereboar to infect yourself with lycanthropy. You gain a 17 in Str, +1 AC, immunity to nonmagical weapons and, if you choose to embrace the curse and your alignment matches the wereboar's alignment, you don't ever lose control over your character.
Moreover, you can turn your Couatl into a Pudding King from Out of the Abyss and use the Pudding King's own change shape ability to turn it into an Elder Oblex from Mordekainen's Tome of Foes, giving you a CR 10 ally.
Can any other free 7th level spell compete with all this?

This sounds good. If you can get damage immunity from non magical attacks (and assuming your DM does not enter a race with you on that), consider getting circle of power as a secret to ward your team against magic.

---------------------------

Picking a few spells to cover for the role of the healer wouldn't be a bad idea. For example, any of raise dead, aura of vitality/ healing spirit (though, not sure how useful out of combat healing would be in this party), or sth to remove status effects like lesser restoration, followed by or upgraded to a greater restoration, death ward, etc, would be useful. Though I am guessing that after some point, all the optimization mattering would be how you can combine your spells with the wizard's and how to cover weaknesses (such as how to best utilize minions if you are using much of them, or how to protect the casters of this small group).

I'd keep sanctuary prepared. Even with a wisdom of 13 or 14. You are in a small group, with two casters.
That level of cleric means that every two levels you are going to have slots for which you wont know any spells. That means upcasting. Some spells that tend to upcast really well are those that add targets when you upcast them. Such as the hold spells and banishment (not a bard spell though). These spells also tend to work well when you cannot rely on an AoE such as hypnotic pattern, and if someone needs to have them, then its better that you do than the wizard imo.

I'd consider misty step as an additional magical secret. You don't want to be hit and in a small party that means a lot of running away. Misty step would help with that.

[Lyracian]

I agree with others on not taking Cleric Attack spells.

For my Cleric/Bard I was planning on less 3-4 level spells to have room for others. I like Comprehend Languages on a Bard and was thinking of Teleport. Mind Blank was my level 8 pick and Foresight for level 9. Blindness and Heat Metal were the level 2 picks but not sure if you would still want them at higher levels.

Magical Secrets are more group dependent as you can cover holes in your team. Since I am playing the party medic I was looking at these as options. I was also thinking of swapping out Find Greater Steed once I get Wish as if I need a new Pegasus I can wish for it. Death Ward for myself and steed also seems like a good idea.

Magical Secrets Options
MS6: Counter spell, Conjure Animals, Fireball, Goodberry*, Healing Spirit*
MS10: Death Ward, Find Greater Steed, Wall of Force
MS14: Wind Walk, Reverse Gravity
MS18: Maze, Wish

*I took Life Cleric dip.

[Bobthewizard]

Hello everyone, I'm building a Lore Bard with an Order Cleric dip for Guidance, armour, and shields. This is my current spell selection, I'd like to hear your opinions about it and how to improve it.

Cleric:

0: Guidance, Toll the Dead, Sacred Flame
1: Bless, Healing Word, Detect Magic

Bard:

0: Minor Illusion, Light, Mage Hand, Message
1: Dissonant Whispers, Feather Fall
2: /
3: Hypnotic Pattern, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Dispel Magic, Bestow Curse, Counterspell (from the Azorius background)
4: Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Dimension Door
5: Animate Objects, Synaptic Static
6: Mass Suggestion
7: Forcecage
8: Glibness
9: True Polymorph

Magical Secrets:

Lvl 6: Spiritual Weapon, Pass Without Trace/Fireball (depending on whether our Druid who can cast the former is still with us)
Lvl 10: Find Greater Steed, Wall of Force
Lvl 14: Conjure Celestial, Sickening Radiance
Lvl 18: Wish, Heroes' Feast/Absorb Elements (depending on whether our Druid who can cast the former is still with us)

I like your list a lot. You have the best bard spell on it for each level except maybe suggestion. Maybe you dropped it when you picked up mass suggestion but it might be worth keeping so you can use a 2nd level slot for a single target out of combat encounter. I'd have it earlier for sure though.

Otherwise, I'd make the wizard learn some of Leomunds tiny hut, dispel magic, wall of force and sickening radiance. Especially Leomunds hut since they can cast it as a ritual without preparing it.

If they take some of those, you could add both restoration spells and raise dead since you don't have a good healer anymore.

Bards need help with defense and melee swarms. Cleric's armor helps a lot but you could consider some staple wizard protections like shield, absorb elements, misty step and mirror image for some of your magical secrets.

For melee swarms, spirit guardians or conjure animals might be good 6th level MS picks. I wouldn't take fireball if you are planning on getting synaptic static. Or if you take fireball then don't take synaptic static. Conjure animals is good for a small party and very flexible.

For conjure celestial, talk to your DM first. In the MM, the ability to control the shapechange comes "with time and experience" so make sure you will be able to control it or you could lose your spellcasting at inopportune times. Not sure the RAW but in practice it would depend on the DM. As a DM, I would make sure there were downsides since it is considered a curse.

Some spells that are better on bards than wizards are counterspell and telekinesis for the jack of all trades 1/2 proficiency, and magic jar since it can be a charisma save to avoid dying.

[Lyracian]

If you watch Treantmonk's Temple at all he has just published four videos on Magical Secrets which include some options I had not thought of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZWLEyI4Ikk&t=320s

Level 14 - Contingency, Wall of Thorns
Level 18 - Wish and Mass Heal

[OgataiKhan]

Picking a few spells to cover for the role of the healer wouldn't be a bad idea. For example, any of raise dead, aura of vitality/ healing spirit (though, not sure how useful out of combat healing would be in this party), or sth to remove status effects like lesser restoration, followed by or upgraded to a greater restoration, death ward, etc, would be useful. Though I am guessing that after some point, all the optimization mattering would be how you can combine your spells with the wizard's and how to cover weaknesses (such as how to best utilize minions if you are using much of them, or how to protect the casters of this small group).

I'd keep sanctuary prepared. Even with a wisdom of 13 or 14. You are in a small group, with two casters.
That level of cleric means that every two levels you are going to have slots for which you wont know any spells. That means upcasting. Some spells that tend to upcast really well are those that add targets when you upcast them. Such as the hold spells and banishment (not a bard spell though). These spells also tend to work well when you cannot rely on an AoE such as hypnotic pattern, and if someone needs to have them, then its better that you do than the wizard imo.

I'd consider misty step as an additional magical secret. You don't want to be hit and in a small party that means a lot of running away. Misty step would help with that.

I am indeed very tempted to take Healing Spirit, without the Druid that spell will be missed.
Death Ward is another great spell I considered, it's particularly good when cast with spare slots just before the end of a long rest, and becomes increasingly relevant in later levels. Do you think it might ever be better than Wall of Force, given that we already have a Wizard in party who can cast the latter?

Finally I've also considered Crusader's Mantle: if combined with the Necromancer's skeleton archers and the Druid's animals (ideally velociraptors with multiattack, to trigger the mantle twice) it would have been broken, but I'm not sure it's worth it just for the skeletons.

Good point about Sanctuary, although having two casters also means that the creature who can't attack one of the two will just attack the other.

As for the Hold spells to upcast, I might keep them while they are still effective, though eventually I will replace them as they become useless with all the legendary resistances and insane saves we are bound to run into.

Misty Step is nice, I'd use it if it were a Bard spell, but I don't think it's worth a magical secret with Dimension Door around the corner. Plus, I'll likely be playing a Warforged who hates his repetitive job and wants to be an actor instead, so I'll have a very good AC for a caster.

I like your list a lot. You have the best bard spell on it for each level except maybe suggestion. Maybe you dropped it when you picked up mass suggestion but it might be worth keeping so you can use a 2nd level slot for a single target out of combat encounter. I'd have it earlier for sure though.

Otherwise, I'd make the wizard learn some of Leomunds tiny hut, dispel magic, wall of force and sickening radiance. Especially Leomunds hut since they can cast it as a ritual without preparing it.

If they take some of those, you could add both restoration spells and raise dead since you don't have a good healer anymore.

Bards need help with defense and melee swarms. Cleric's armor helps a lot but you could consider some staple wizard protections like shield, absorb elements, misty step and mirror image for some of your magical secrets.

For melee swarms, spirit guardians or conjure animals might be good 6th level MS picks. I wouldn't take fireball if you are planning on getting synaptic static. Or if you take fireball then don't take synaptic static. Conjure animals is good for a small party and very flexible.

For conjure celestial, talk to your DM first. In the MM, the ability to control the shapechange comes "with time and experience" so make sure you will be able to control it or you could lose your spellcasting at inopportune times. Not sure the RAW but in practice it would depend on the DM. As a DM, I would make sure there were downsides since it is considered a curse.

Some spells that are better on bards than wizards are counterspell and telekinesis for the jack of all trades 1/2 proficiency, and magic jar since it can be a charisma save to avoid dying.

Suggestion is nice out of combat, but it has its disadvantages. Most importantly, it would ruin our reputation if we were busted mind-controlling non-hostile innocents.
Moreover, with expertise in Persuasion I'm not sure how often I'll need to use a spell to achieve a similar effect, so eventually I found Suggestion doesn't make the cut for the final list.

I'll definitely be happier if the Wizard finds Tiny Hut somewhere, though I'm not sure they'll be able to take it as a level up spell with so much competition on the Wizard list.

I'll consider the restoration spells for when I need them in a pinch, but at higher levels I'll often have my Couatl with me (especially after Planar Binding) and it can cast both of them.

As for the protection, I excluded Shield due to competition with Cutting Words. Absorb Elements on the other hand is great, the only reason it doesn't make the cut is that I need that last Magical Secret slot for Heroes' Feast for the frighten immunity. I'll also likely be playing a Warforged as I said above, so my AC won't be bad.
Conjure Animals I definitely considered, it's a great spell especially when upcast, I only excluded it because, being concentration, it competes with Hypnotic Pattern against multiple enemies and with Animate Objects/the Forcecage combo against a boss.
I'm also not taking Fireball after all due to the need for Pass Without Trace.

If you watch Treantmonk's Temple at all he has just published four videos on Magical Secrets which include some options I had not thought of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZWLEyI4Ikk&t=320s

Level 14 - Contingency, Wall of Thorns
Level 18 - Wish and Mass Heal

Just found out about those videos this morning, perfect timing from his side xD Thanks!

[Corran]

Death Ward is another great spell I considered, it's particularly good when cast with spare slots just before the end of a long rest, and becomes increasingly relevant in later levels. Do you think it might ever be better than Wall of Force, given that we already have a Wizard in party who can cast the latter?

Death ward would be useful in a small party, but I am not sure if I would want to give up WoF, even if the wizard gets it too. I am tempted to say yes. That's because between you and the wizard, you have limited 5th level slots and ideally you want them to use them simultaneously with different effects (cause how often will you need 2 walls of force up at the same time?). I'd talk with the wizard and make sure that they don't have very serious competition for these 5th level slots when in combat (maybe they want to use danse macabre? personally I am not sold on it for a wizard, though it wouldn't be that bad on a necromancer), so that they can use wall of force when needed. Then I'd try to make sure that the wizard will be reasonably well protected against failing concentration (cause you really don't want them to lose concentration on WoF when it's being used effectively). Your greater steed can help here. I would seriously consider having it carry the wizard away from melee enemies (you will be much tougher than the wizard). It's still risky, but I am tempted to say it's worth it. Now, this new magical secret spot could be used for death ward, or for something else if you can think of something better.

Finally I've also considered Crusader's Mantle: if combined with the Necromancer's skeleton archers and the Druid's animals (ideally velociraptors with multiattack, to trigger the mantle twice) it would have been broken, but I'm not sure it's worth it just for the skeletons.

Yeah, I am thinking pretty much the same thing. The undead minions wont have a great attack bonus and they are fragile. Not sold on it.

Good point about Sanctuary, although having two casters also means that the creature who can't attack one of the two will just attack the other.

True. But if's a choice between a caster and the fighter, or better yet, between a caster and a minion, then it will be worth the slot. But for that to be the case, you want at least one of the casters out of harm's way (preferably the wizard, cause he'll be squishier than you) and the target of sanctuary in range (again, easier if you plan to target yourself with it). Not a solid defense, since your wisdom based DC wont be maxed, but it's a little extra (that will protect your hp and a tiny bit your concentration too) when you have some tools that will protect one of the casters already but not both (ideally, non-concentration ones, so that the caster can concentrate on sth that will help win the fight than on something that will keep them alive).

As for the Hold spells to upcast, I might keep them while they are still effective, though eventually I will replace them as they become useless with all the legendary resistances and insane saves we are bound to run into.

True.

Spoiler: rambling

Show

The hold spells wont play that well with your group anyway, cause you don't have great crit damage potential (minions could get up close in melee to crit, though depending on initiative this could easily be after the paralyzed enemies get two saves, including the initial one). I would like to see banishment in this party, cause it addresses a common enough combat scenario against which I don't see the party having many tools (ie few-ish tough enemies w/o legendary resistances, engaged with the pc's -most lkely with the fighter and thus with no clear shot at an AoE or other bc spell), but unfortunately it's not a bard spell. I think I would take it as a magical secret (cause I really like how it plays well with those higher level slots for which we wont have known spells), though objectively there are probably better choices to go around that (I guess this is where an animate objects spell could step in). Yeah, I don't think banishment is really worth the magical secret spot, and the hold spells don't offer much synergy.

Misty Step is nice, I'd use it if it were a Bard spell, but I don't think it's worth a magical secret with Dimension Door around the corner. Plus, I'll likely be playing a Warforged who hates his repetitive job and wants to be an actor instead, so I'll have a very good AC for a caster.

Agreed.

---------------------------------
A couple of thoughts about the higher levels.

At level 14 your necromancer will get command undead as a subclass feature. Bestow curse will be of much help here, though they can grab it. What you could get to help a little with that, is the bane spell. Ideally you want it as a bard spell so that it will have a better DC, though the difference in DC is small for the additional help the spell offers towards the real goal here (which is to capture the undead), so you could always squeeze it in your cleric's prepared spells, for example in the place of detect magic, which the wizard could grab as a ritual. It's not much, but since there is that little bit of synergy and the command undead ability is very strong and you can rarely get to use it, why not be prepared to use every little bit of synergy you can achieve?

Consider animal shapes (level 8 druid spell) as one of the two latest magical secret picks. It will play really well with a big undead force your necromancer could be commanding at that point.