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  1. - Top - End - #331
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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    I think the kobold incident speaks to Elan and Durkon’s unwillingness to do sober about their allies’ poor choices.
    I think it's supposed to be more of a reflection of their passiveness than of their actual moral okay-ness with torture. (Or, perhaps, just their focus on the mission-- or Elan's easy ability to be distracted from thinking about it, maybe.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Norbert View Post
    And that was clearly a serious moment. There was nothing funny about it at all. It was the start of the conflict between Haley and Celia, and brought out the fact that Haley wasn't cut out to be a party leader.
    I think Haley showed she's a better leader than even she would give herself credit for, although it is admittedly difficult to lead two people who don't really respect you as a leader.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Well, setting aside how her clan deserved what it got, the fact of the matter is she is judged more harshly than, say, V or Belkar. The other fact of the matter is I had to deal with people assuming that Hilgya likely did something to justify or necessitate her forced marriage, with a natural number between -1 and 1 being the number of reasons to do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    I didn't witness it myself, but from what I've heard there was like one or two persons who said there might be circumstances that would make what happened to Hilgya sad but justifiable. The Weirdo has turned that into a parade of people gleefully advocating forcing women into marriages against their will, and will argue as such, even against people who have made it clear they do not hold that view, while also disagreeing with him about Hilgya in general.
    People told The_Weirdo that going on an indiscriminate murder spree was neither proportionate nor necessary for Hilgya to gain her freedom, and his response was to call them apologists for sex trafficking.

    EDIT:

    As Jasdoif has found, one person argued that it was possible Hilgya did something where a shotgun marriage seemed like the most reasonable option. I think it requires assumptions that we don't really need to make, though, and really, we've been through this topic ad nauseam anyway.
    Last edited by Ruck; 2019-09-25 at 06:25 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    There are people who think forcing a woman into marriage can ever be justified?

    And, what's more, are not ashamed to utter that thought in public?

    That is ... disturbing.
    Sure, as long as it’s fictional dwarves in a comic strip being forced to marry each other to make a joke, everyone reading the comic is ok with it.

    If they weren’t ok with it, they would have stopped reading the comic 15 years ago.

    More to the point, if you yourself didn’t think it was acceptable under any circumstances, even as a fictional joke in a fictional joke world with fictional joke characters, you wouldn’t be reading the comic, and you likely wouldn’t be posting on this board.

    So find a way off your horse, because it’s giving you a nosebleed.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-09-25 at 06:31 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Thanks. So there was a small selection of people making some pretty bad/sexist arguments there. Unfortunate, but not surprising. Doesn't really change that those same arguments haven't been made in a long while and yet The_Weirdo keeps bringing them up as if they're current.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-09-25 at 06:36 PM.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

  4. - Top - End - #334
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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Thanks. So there was a small selection of people making some pretty bad/sexist arguments there. Unfortunate, but not surprising. Doesn't really change that those same arguments haven't been made in a long while and yet The_Weirdo keeps bringing them up as if they're current.
    Judging an entire group of people based on the actions of an individual is part of his explicitly expressed morality, after all.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    People told The_Weirdo that going on an indiscriminate murder spree was neither proportionate nor necessary for Hilgya to gain her freedom, and his response was to call them apologists for sex trafficking.
    That did not, in fact, happen. I called the Firehelms sex traffickers because, well, that is very much what they are. I also expressed quite a bit of frustration at people that kept making up scenarios as to why Hilgya somehow deserved to be forcibly married. I never called the people that came up with such what-was-she-wearingisms apologists for anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    To be fair, I honestly don't get why that matters. Yeah, if you were alive being stuck physically and mentally as a toddler would be a terrible thing, but Eric is in a great afterlife where all people are incapable of changing anyway.
    I didn't personally grok it as anything particularly noteworthy either - even if it is freaky, that's definitely Fridge Logic, as compared to Hilgya whose controversial behavior is explicit and frequently important to the plot - I just think it's an interesting example of the Giant and some members of his audience being very much not on the same page about the story's treatment of a child.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    That did not, in fact, happen. I called the Firehelms sex traffickers because, well, that is very much what they are. I also expressed quite a bit of frustration at people that kept making up scenarios as to why Hilgya somehow deserved to be forcibly married. I never called the people that came up with such what-was-she-wearingisms apologists for anything.
    I'm not sure if you understand the difference between sex trafficking and an arranged marriage (forced or otherwise).

    Honestly, I don't particularly want to get into that myself so I'm going to stop here.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Thanks. So there was a small selection of people making some pretty bad/sexist arguments there. Unfortunate, but not surprising. Doesn't really change that those same arguments haven't been made in a long while and yet The_Weirdo keeps bringing them up as if they're current.
    No I’ll happily join in. We have no idea why Hilgya and Ivan were forced into a shotgun marriage. No explanation has been given in the comic. Very little is known about Hilgya, even less is known about Ivan, and next to nothing is know about dwarven societal norms.

    Literally the ONLY thing I know about the wedding is that it was a cheap throwaway one panel joke with possible exaggeration for comic effect, followed by another cheap throwaway joke with explicit exaggeration for comic effect.

    Any attempt to extrapolate from that knowledge to broader truths about the world of the comic is self-serving, probably delusional, and likely done in bad faith.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I'm not sure if you understand the difference between sex trafficking and an arranged marriage (forced or otherwise).
    She happened to be lucky. But you see, it turns out that, if your family won't respect your choice of whether or not to marry, it stands to reason that it won't respect your choice of whether or not to consummate the marriage.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I'm not sure if you understand the difference between sex trafficking and an arranged marriage (forced or otherwise).

    Honestly, I don't particularly want to get into that myself so I'm going to stop here.
    There IS no difference, other than the excuses people make up in their own heads. Ethically, it is one and the same.

    That Hilgya's ex-husband seems like he wouldn't actually do that is likely due to the author's unwillingness to have rape in the comic. See also Therkla's "disgusting" backstory.

    It does not take away from the guilt of Hilgya's family.
    Last edited by Themrys; 2019-09-25 at 07:07 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    There IS no difference, other than the excuses people make up in their own heads. Ethically, it is one and the same.

    That Hilgya's ex-husband seems like he wouldn't actually do that is likely due to the author's unwillingness to have rape in the comic. See also Therkla's "disgusting" backstory.

    It does not take away from the guilt of Hilgya's family.
    Marry me! Like, if and only if you want, with no pressure whatsoever and absolutely no ramifications, negative or otherwise, if you refuse.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2019-09-25 at 07:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Marry me! Like, if and only if you want, with no pressure whatsoever and absolutely no ramifications, negative or otherwise, if you refuse.
    Awwww, thank you.

    I am so flattered.

    Perhaps agreeing on the wrongness of forced marriage is not quite enough to build a marriage on, but I thank you for the compliment.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Awwww, thank you.

    I am so flattered.

    Perhaps agreeing on the wrongness of forced marriage is not quite enough to build a marriage on, but I thank you for the compliment.
    Was worth a shot.

    Not a literal one, let alone a crossbow one, of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I think it's supposed to be more of a reflection of their passiveness than of their actual moral okay-ness with torture. (Or, perhaps, just their focus on the mission-- or Elan's easy ability to be distracted from thinking about it, maybe.)
    Yeah I agree. They personally conduct themselves well but they aren't willing to intercede when it's their allies doing bad stuff.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    There IS no difference, other than the excuses people make up in their own heads. Ethically, it is one and the same.

    That Hilgya's ex-husband seems like he wouldn't actually do that is likely due to the author's unwillingness to have rape in the comic. See also Therkla's "disgusting" backstory.

    It does not take away from the guilt of Hilgya's family.
    I just wrote a 3 paragraph long retort on how there's a difference between sex trafficking and an arranged marriage. Then I looked at what I had written, and how I somehow felt compelled to explain the difference between the two in even moderate detail, and felt ill.

    I'm really sorry, but I need to stop trying to contribute to this discussion.

    Anyone want to talk about what kind of beer Roy and Belkar are probably drinking?
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    No I’ll happily join in. We have no idea why Hilgya and Ivan were forced into a shotgun marriage. No explanation has been given in the comic. Very little is known about Hilgya, even less is known about Ivan, and next to nothing is know about dwarven societal norms.

    Literally the ONLY thing I know about the wedding is that it was a cheap throwaway one panel joke with possible exaggeration for comic effect, followed by another cheap throwaway joke with explicit exaggeration for comic effect.

    Any attempt to extrapolate from that knowledge to broader truths about the world of the comic is self-serving, probably delusional, and likely done in bad faith.
    IIRC, what we know of it is from 0084 and 1114.
    And in both case, the flashback panels are a part of Hilgya's narration / explanation.
    So, basically, we have only her own word about what has happened.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I just wrote a 3 paragraph long retort on how there's a difference between sex trafficking and an arranged marriage. Then I looked at what I had written, and how I somehow felt compelled to explain the difference between the two in even moderate detail, and felt ill.

    I'm really sorry, but I need to stop trying to contribute to this discussion.

    Anyone want to talk about what kind of beer Roy and Belkar are probably drinking?
    I do regret helping with that summoning spell.

    But yeah sure, I'd say its Dwarven Treekilling Thunderclap Beer. Presumably made by the Thundclap Beer Co.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    IIRC, what we know of it is from 0084 and 1114.
    And in both case, the flashback panels are a part of Hilgya's narration / explanation.
    So, basically, we have only her own word about what has happened.
    Can't have it both ways. Either her narrative is false and her panels are true or vice-versa. In both cases, there was forced marriage. Otherwise, if both are false, then there is absolurely nothing we can discuss with an iota of certainty: she could have been a treant for all we know.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Spoiler: Long, Rambling Opinions that take up too much space
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    For a bunch of heroes trying to make sure the snarl doesn't destroy the word and the souls of pretty much everyone, our heroes spend a whole lot of time NOT trying-to-make-sure-the-Snarl-doesn't-destroy-the-world-and-the-souls-of-pretty-much-everyone.

    Even if souls aren't eternal in this story (in my opinion, a catastrophically bad decision on Rich's part, robbing the narrative of 99.999...% of what I felt were its meaningful weight and stakes, and changing the true terror of the setting from The Snarl to the afterlife itself, but that's a discussion for another thread), the sheer existential threat should really be weighing a lot more on, well, every character aware of what's at risk. All priorities other than "prevent-the-unmaking-of-all-that-I-know-and-love" are, at this point, either distractions or means to the ultimate end.

    I can understand where Durkon is coming from, here. The world's chances are increased if he is able to concentrate fully on his mission.

    But Hilgya doesn't seem to worry about the world at all, and it's very grating. Always running at the first sign of trouble is not "rational behavior", it's merely attempting to escape. There are times to fold them, yes, but there are also times to hold them. Even "bugging out to another plane" merely leaves Kudzu a member of a critically endangered species, a refuge from a world that no longer exists, a survivor where millions died. I can't imagine living under that burden, growing up knowing that the world where you were born is just... gone.

    I don't want to bring up real-world history, so I won't cite examples of people who were the last of their kind or among the last of their kind, but it's absolutely heartbreaking in a way that Hilgya either doesn't realize or doesn't see fit to acknowledge.

    Heck, even Xykon shows more concern about the world (albeit because he wants to rule it, rather than destroy it, at least as of now).
    Last edited by NihhusHuotAliro; 2019-09-25 at 07:40 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    IIRC, what we know of it is from 0084 and 1114.
    And in both case, the flashback panels are a part of Hilgya's narration / explanation.
    So, basically, we have only her own word about what has happened.
    That's not how it works for the original scene, though. There we were shown scenes that contradicted what Hilgya was saying. Hence, it is clear that the panels themselves are true, while Hilgya's narration is not trustworthy. Hilgya's a priori untrustworthy words about a forced marriage were confirmed by the panel clearly depicting an unhappy Hilgya marrying at crossbow point.
    Last edited by hroþila; 2019-09-25 at 07:31 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I do regret helping with that summoning spell.

    But yeah sure, I'd say its Dwarven Treekilling Thunderclap Beer. Presumably made by the Thundclap Beer Co.
    If I remember correctly, don't you need a raincloud for a thunderclap?
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-09-25 at 07:34 PM.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Look, no one, at least from what I've seen, thinks that forced marriage is a good thing. In fact, the vast majority believes (rightfully) that it is a very, very, very bad thing. The debate is about whether or not Hilgya was morally justified in doing...well, anything she has ever done just because her clan wronged her. The answer, in my opinion, is absolutely not.

    She is Evil, not because she didn't want to be part of an arranged marriage, not because she isn't following the rules of dwarven society, not even because she named her son after an invasive species, but because she is willing to hurt others because of their real or perceived wrongdoings. And she shows no guilt, shame, remorse, or even a shred of empathy for the victims. Remind you of anyone?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    If I remember correctly, don't you need 3 storm clouds to have a thunderclap?
    Exactly, that's the tame beer (they give the babies and toddlers stormcloud types, right after they move from mother's milk), the thunderclap beer is for floozies who can only handle beer for kids (the others are having much better beer, at least Treekiller Rockaxe Lightningstrike Treekiller, but these people share emotional blood with Sigdi I'd bet they drink the hardest beer, but I can't figure out a better name than what I did for the last one, help me figure out what the best beer would be called).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Exactly, that's the tame beer (they give the babies and toddlers stormcloud types, right after they move from mother's milk), the thunderclap beer is for floozies who can only handle beer for kids (the others are having much better beer, at least Treekiller Rockaxe Lightningstrike Treekiller, but these people share emotional blood with Sigdi I'd bet they drink the hardest beer, but I can't figure out a better name than what I did for the last one, help me figure out what the best beer would be called).
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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MossyMeow View Post
    Look, no one, at least from what I've seen, thinks that forced marriage is a good thing.
    Nitpicking about forced marriage being different from sex trafficking does seem very much like someone wants to defend forced marriage, though.


    And yeah, Hilgya is pretty self-serving and egocentric, but the hatred she gets for it on the forums is just out of proportion. As to her being evil, well, she ultimately refrained from setting the clan hall of her family on fire, while V did not exactly hold back with the revenge.

    Her worshipping an evil god points to her being evil, but she hasn't really committed any worse atrocities than characters we are told are neutral.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Exactly, that's the tame beer (they give the babies and toddlers stormcloud types, right after they move from mother's milk), the thunderclap beer is for floozies who can only handle beer for kids (the others are having much better beer, at least Treekiller Rockaxe Lightningstrike Treekiller, but these people share emotional blood with Sigdi I'd bet they drink the hardest beer, but I can't figure out a better name than what I did for the last one, help me figure out what the best beer would be called).
    There's the Double Rockapple Thorbolt that's got some hard cider in it if you want flavor, but for sheer potency you'd want the Oakfeller Cyclone.

    Tip for making ultimate names: you generally want to condense the names somewhat, so that you have the power from the portamaneus but not so many words that you just are saying a run on for what inadvertently becomes comedic effect. Also, it stops you from running out of names if you need to make a tier above/below that. I find a good limit is 3 words, each of which can be 2~3 words long (depending on the use of verbing, like "stonebreaker-avocado". And then throw on a multiplier for a fourth word just for fun!(Octdroupulo Tubular Soulslicing Sassafras!)
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-09-25 at 07:54 PM.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Nitpicking about forced marriage being different from sex trafficking does seem very much like someone wants to defend forced marriage, though.
    Because sex trafficking is a very different problem than forced marriage, and the two are not comparable beyond both involving nonconsensual sex. They are not equivalent in any regard, and should not be used interchangeably. Clan Firehelm is not a sex trafficking ring. It is a family that wrongly and cruelly forced a woman into a marriage she did not want. There is a massive difference, and wanting to clarify it does not make one a defender of forced marriage.
    Last edited by MossyMeow; 2019-09-25 at 07:54 PM.
    Like Star Wars, ponies, and/or unabashed silliness? Check out my YouTube channel, Nothing In Particular, for a healthy dose of absurdity. It's just what the doctor ordered!*

    * Surgeon General's Warning: May cause chronic hideous laughter, eye rolling, or beleaguered sighs. Not intended to prevent, diagnose, or treat any disease.

  28. - Top - End - #358
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MossyMeow View Post
    Because sex trafficking is a very different problem than forced marriage, and the two are not comparable beyond both involving nonconsensual sex. They are not equivalent in any regard, and should not be used interchangeable. Clan Firehelm is not a sex trafficking ring. It is a family that wrongly and cruelly forced a woman into a marriage she did not want. There is a massive difference, and wanting to clarify it does not make one a defender of forced marriage.
    Nitpick: Both can and often do involve nonconsensual sex, but if the forced marriage is for financial or political reasons it can easily be that the two people just put up with each other and not have nonconsensual sex. The point is, forced/arranged marriage is defined by forcing two people to marry each other without their free agreement. It is not defined by dominance or forced sex, which sex trafficking is defined by.

    We now return to beer jokes.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is serious talk about hypothetical
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    I sleep, therefore I dream;
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  29. - Top - End - #359
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    We now return to beer jokes.
    I'm partial to Thor's Nuts and Troll Spit myself.

    Thar names sound disgustin', but thar better tha' human beer any day.
    Like Star Wars, ponies, and/or unabashed silliness? Check out my YouTube channel, Nothing In Particular, for a healthy dose of absurdity. It's just what the doctor ordered!*

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  30. - Top - End - #360
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    Default Re: OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    There's the Double Rockapple Thorbolt that's got some hard cider in it if you want flavor, but for sheer potency you'd want the Oakfeller Cyclone.

    Tip for making ultimate names: you generally want to condense the names somewhat, so that you have the power from the portamaneus but not so many words that you just are saying a run on for what inadvertently becomes comedic effect. Also, it stops you from running out of names if you need to make a tier above/below that. I find a good limit is 3 words, each of which can be 2~3 words long (depending on the use of verbing, like "stonebreaker-avocado". And then throw on a multiplier for a fourth word just for fun!(Octdroupulo Tubular Soulslicing Sassafras!)
    Thanks, because despite the fact that these names should be ridiculous I can’t imagine the dwarves have their beers have ridiculously long names.

    I bet those who don’t worship Thor have different drinks (they still drink beer of course, lots of it, it’s only different types and names), the Odinites drink One-Eyed Raven’s Stonecold beer, I don’t know what the Friggers and Freyrites drink, any suggestions?
    Arrrgh, here be me extended sig!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

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