OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

[Teasenitryn]

I think there's a crucial difference between this case and Tarquin's. If Tarquin was asked about it after he regained control of himself, I don't think he could honestly say that he disliked the person that he became or what he did apart from the loss of control.

I honestly don't think that there is a real comparison between Hilgya and Tarquin all in all in all honesty. Hilgya's lashed out, sure, but it has always been to people who she has felt hurt her, initially Ivan and then the family that had her marry him at crossbow point. We have no evidence that her actions have been that way outside of those circumstances (I would accept that we have none that they have not either but innocent until proven guilty and all). Meanwhile we know full well that Tarquin will casually murder prisoners in order to make a light show for his son, will murder anyone speaking against him and will set friends to battle each other to the death for his amusement.

Maybe the scale comes in that Tarquin runs an empire, but we have someone who will kill people who mean nothing to him and someone who has tried to kill and who has taken money off of her clan when they have been part of a personal problem. Granted if we see Hilgya just up and kill the next dwarf or human that looks at her funny then there is a problem but if the worst of what we have seen of her directly is leaving a fight in progress to go feed her baby and be ready to get out if it all goes pearshaped there is no similarity in the scale of what she and Tarquin have been directly witnessed to do and I would say not much of a comparison in what has been referenced in the past.

[The_Weirdo]

Because if you say the name three times while looking into a mirror, the TV show arrives and won't go away ...

That doesn't work with TV series. Trust me on that.

Snip.

Well, quite a lot of people have said Hilgya is judged more harshly than most.

[MossyMeow]

Because if you say the name three times while looking into a mirror, the TV show arrives and won't go away ...

I believe we’ve found the reason TV shows keep on getting revived nowadays- they are being summoned from BEYOND THE GRAVE!

[The_Weirdo]

I believe we’ve found the reason TV shows keep on getting revived nowadays- they are being summoned from BEYOND THE GRAVE!

As a specialist in saying names three times in front of mirrors, I can assure you that is not how you summon a TV show. TV shows are not individuals.

[MossyMeow]

As a specialist in saying names three times in front of mirrors, I can assure you that is not how you summon a TV show. TV shows are not individuals.

Simple- we have to summon the creators of the show and petition to them. Hhmm...I wonder if that trick works on webcomics?

The Giant...The Giant...The Giant...

[Rrmcklin]

I honestly don't think that there is a real comparison between Hilgya and Tarquin all in all in all honesty. Hilgya's lashed out, sure, but it has always been to people who she has felt hurt her, initially Ivan and then the family that had her marry him at crossbow point. We have no evidence that her actions have been that way outside of those circumstances (I would accept that we have none that they have not either but innocent until proven guilty and all). Meanwhile we know full well that Tarquin will casually murder prisoners in order to make a light show for his son, will murder anyone speaking against him and will set friends to battle each other to the death for his amusement.

Maybe the scale comes in that Tarquin runs an empire, but we have someone who will kill people who mean nothing to him and someone who has tried to kill and who has taken money off of her clan when they have been part of a personal problem. Granted if we see Hilgya just up and kill the next dwarf or human that looks at her funny then there is a problem but if the worst of what we have seen of her directly is leaving a fight in progress to go feed her baby and be ready to get out if it all goes pearshaped there is no similarity in the scale of what she and Tarquin have been directly witnessed to do and I would say not much of a comparison in what has been referenced in the past.

They're both fairly affable, highly powerful (most-likely) evil parents, who consistently have/had people defending/downplaying their actions and have shown themselves to be willing to put their whims/desires ahead of their children (while of course, not actually thinking that's what they're doing).

Obviously Tarquin and Hilgya aren't exactly the same, but the reasons for comparison are numerous and obvious.

[diplomancer]

I honestly don't think that there is a real comparison between Hilgya and Tarquin all in all in all honesty. Hilgya's lashed out, sure, but it has always been to people who she has felt hurt her, initially Ivan and then the family that had her marry him at crossbow point. We have no evidence that her actions have been that way outside of those circumstances (I would accept that we have none that they have not either but innocent until proven guilty and all). Meanwhile we know full well that Tarquin will casually murder prisoners in order to make a light show for his son, will murder anyone speaking against him and will set friends to battle each other to the death for his amusement.

What do you mean? Obviously, those slaves were deliberately trying to humiliate him by escaping en masse just when his son was there to see it.

They deserved to die just as much as Durkon did for his awkward proposal.

[Ruck]

Is there a reason you both speak of TV shows without actually mentioning them?

Not really, other than I was worried I might give away important plot information to people who hadn't seen it.

Breaking Bad, Breaking Bad, Breaking Bad (I know next to nothing of this show, but I would bet that one of them is discussing it).

But yes, that's one of them, and the other one is the show I talk about on here all the time, The Shield.

[bunsen_h]

I don't know the character you speak of from your description, but perhaps if he had come to know and understand that side of himself before he got to the point where he was placed in a crisis, it may not have come out to such tragic effects.

His tragic flaw was, first, unreciprocated love for a woman who -- over the series -- met, fell in love with, and married another man. This character regarded his love as positive; it spurred him to greater deeds and to support and protect the woman he loved. The problematic aspect was his jealousy for the other man, and he believed that as long as he had the jealousy under control, it was okay. Which it was, until an emergency arose, and his jealousy led him to abandon the other man, for a moment. Then he got control of himself and went back. Not unlike Roy going back for Elan.

Is there a reason you both speak of TV shows without actually mentioning them?

Speaking for myself: because it's kind of a spoiler for the character's entire story arc, but:

Spoiler: this guy

Show

Lennier from Babylon 5

.

I honestly don't think that there is a real comparison between Hilgya and Tarquin all in all in all honesty.

By "this case", I meant the character I was referring to, not Hilgya. I'm sorry; I was unclear.

[Petrocorus]

I believe we’ve found the reason TV shows keep on getting revived nowadays- they are being summoned from BEYOND THE GRAVE!

Can i do this with Futurama, Futurama, Futurama?

His tragic flaw was, first, unreciprocated love for a woman who -- over the series -- met, fell in love with, and married another man. This character regarded his love as positive; it spurred him to greater deeds and to support and protect the woman he loved. The problematic aspect was his jealousy for the other man, and he believed that as long as he had the jealousy under control, it was okay. Which it was, until an emergency arose, and his jealousy led him to abandon the other man, for a moment. Then he got control of himself and went back. Not unlike Roy going back for Elan.

Oh my...
I didn't even remember about him, but this is indeed a perfect example of how a moment of weakness can screw things for you and a significant number of people.

In his case, he didn't even acknowledge during the first seasons his sentiments were romantic, which certainly didn't help.
Even some additional material (derived products actually) described "a pure spiritual love for her".

[Ruck]

In general-- I was going to edit this into my last post but got distracted and there have been more since-- "Crisis" for a character in a drama often means "a decision point of high stakes where two of the character's values come into conflict." Tarquin is a great example, because he tried to act like he thought a loving father would-- probably even believed he was one-- until that value came into conflict with his need to be in control and have the story told his way; then, we found out which value mattered more to him.

His tragic flaw was, first, unreciprocated love for a woman who -- over the series -- met, fell in love with, and married another man. This character regarded his love as positive; it spurred him to greater deeds and to support and protect the woman he loved. The problematic aspect was his jealousy for the other man, and he believed that as long as he had the jealousy under control, it was okay. Which it was, until an emergency arose, and his jealousy led him to abandon the other man, for a moment. Then he got control of himself and went back. Not unlike Roy going back for Elan.

I read the spoiler and haven't seen the show, but-- it sounds like he believed something about himself that wasn't true (that he had his jealousy under control) and the truth came out in a moment of crisis.

Can i do this with Futurama, Futurama, Futurama?


Oh my...
I didn't even remember about him, but this is indeed a perfect example of how a moment of weakness can screw things for you and a significant number of people.

In his case, he didn't even acknowledge during the first seasons his sentiments were romantic, which certainly didn't help.
Even some additional material (derived products actually) described "a pure spiritual love for her".

A good addendum to the point that this character's problem was a lack of self-knowledge. He denied the nature of his feelings and denied what he was willing to do about them, until he found himself at a point of crisis and acted on those feelings rather than what he believed was the right thing to do. Fortunately, he had a chance to correct his mistake; not all who do so are so lucky.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Can i do this with Futurama, Futurama, Futurama?

I'd rather you didn't, given what the last couple seasons were like.

[HorizonWalker]

I'd rather you didn't, given what the last couple seasons were like.

Yeah, that was definitely a rude surprise for me. I loved the original run of Futurama, right up to the end of all the movies. Then one day, I was on a date, we put on netflix, decided to watch Futurama, and I was informed that the show got renewed. So I suggested watching the newer episodes.

After the end of the first episode, I suggested watching something else.

[MossyMeow]

Speaking for myself: because it's kind of a spoiler for the character's entire story arc, but:

Spoiler: this guy

Show

Lennier from Babylon 5

.

I find it interesting that the character you mentioned is from a show Rich has cited as a source of inspiration. It might not be a coincidence that they seem similar. Maybe he’ll mention it in the new book’s commentary.

[Emanick]

Speaking for myself: because it's kind of a spoiler for the character's entire story arc, but:

Spoiler: this guy

Show

Lennier from Babylon 5

.

Well, that's unfortunate. I'm in the middle of watching that show right now (just a couple episodes from the end of Season 1). Spoiler tags don't do much good if people don't know whether they're relevant until they open the tags. I hope this doesn't ruin that character's arc for me.

For future reference, it's probably better to first identify what the show is, then put the spoilers in tags.

[Jasdoif]

For future reference, it's probably better to first identify what the show is, then put the spoilers in tags.

I believe identifying the source material on the spoiler tag is traditional.

[Petrocorus]

Well, that's unfortunate. I'm in the middle of watching that show right now (just a couple episodes from the end of Season 1). Spoiler tags don't do much good if people don't know whether they're relevant until they open the tags. I hope this doesn't ruin that character's arc for me.

Then we should probably not tell you what happen to that character you don't even know about yet.

More seriously, i'm sorry this has happened, yet given how good the show and the many character arcs are, this minor spoiler about this character won't ruin the show for you. I don't even think it will ruin this particular character arc for you. This show is worth watching.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, that was definitely a rude surprise for me. I loved the original run of Futurama, right up to the end of all the movies. Then one day, I was on a date, we put on netflix, decided to watch Futurama, and I was informed that the show got renewed. So I suggested watching the newer episodes.

After the end of the first episode, I suggested watching something else.

Honestly, Bender's Big Score was the last thing I liked, more for how they played games with time travel tropes than the A plot or B plot.

[Liquor Box]

I don't think that Hilgya is judged more harshly than most. I think that the reason there is so much more discussion about her alignment and the morality of her actions is that any time someone points out a flaw in her there are a flood of posts either denying it, or suggesting that is is understandable because she's had a bad time in the past.

Examples are in this thread. A few pages back someone pointed out the evil of Belkar being cruel to the kobold he captures - nobody disagreed so we moved past it and it was not notable. In the last page people have pointed out Tarquin's evils, nobody disagreed so we move on and it does not stick in our mind as notable. With Hilgya though, point out that it was evil of her to flame strike Durkon, or kill Ivan, and there's the inevitable denials, which of course lead to argument. Because there's ongoing argument, it sticks in our mind as a major discussion of Hilgya's morality.

People then reflect that there have been more assertions about Hilgya being evil than there have for other characters (even those more obviously evil). But that's not the case, it's just that assertions about Hilgya stand out because people always deny or justify them leading to debate.

[Verappo]

People then reflect that there have been more assertions about Hilgya being evil than there have for other characters (even those more obviously evil). But that's not the case, it's just that assertions about Hilgya stand out because people always deny or justify them leading to debate.

I don't think the issue is manufactured. I remember a time in the forums where there were three concurrent threads (aside from the main comic thread) about how Hilgya was the worst. One of them was called "Hilgya is the Worst", if I recall correctly.

And considering something similar to this also infamously happened with Miko (and possibly the Bandana/Andi diatribe? Those days are hazy), I don't think it's unreasonable to point out the pattern.

[Schroeswald]

I don't think the issue is manufactured. I remember a time in the forums where there were three concurrent threads (aside from the main comic thread) about how Hilgya was the worst. One of them was called "Hilgya is the Worst", if I recall correctly.

And considering something similar to this also infamously happened with Miko (and possibly the Bandana/Andi diatribe? Those days are hazy), I don't think it's unreasonable to point out the pattern.

And Celia, don’t forget her, but yeah, the fact that except Tarquin the characters we detail into the most are Miko and the female character we’re mad at says something (which I have said more than once in my past 11 threads).

[The_Weirdo]

I don't think the issue is manufactured. I remember a time in the forums where there were three concurrent threads (aside from the main comic thread) about how Hilgya was the worst. One of them was called "Hilgya is the Worst", if I recall correctly.

And considering something similar to this also infamously happened with Miko (and possibly the Bandana/Andi diatribe? Those days are hazy), I don't think it's unreasonable to point out the pattern.

Of note: there were people dedicated to the task of asserting that being married off at crossbow point was (or "might have been") somehow Hilgya's fault. Heck, I've seen the hypothesis of the crossbow being ceremonial raised.

[Schroeswald]

Of note: there were people dedicated to the task of asserting that being married off at crossbow point was (or "might have been") somehow Hilgya's fault. Heck, I've seen the hypothesis of the crossbow being ceremonial raised.

But not this thread, and that seemed to have been raised once as a possibility, and everyone who saw it this thread wrote it off as not a possibility, so please, this is the second time you’ve brought up this idea, when most people arguing against you don’t believe what you say they believe.

[Peelee]

Of note: there were people dedicated to the task of asserting that being married off at crossbow point was (or "might have been") somehow Hilgya's fault. Heck, I've seen the hypothesis of the crossbow being ceremonial raised.

There were also people dedicated to the task of curing bodily ailments by adjusting the four humours, but strangely no doctors I've known have ever felt the need to argue against that.

Bringing up old arguments nobody in this thread is pushing for isn't helping your case, is what I'm saying here.

[Petrocorus]

Of note: there were people dedicated to the task of asserting that being married off at crossbow point was (or "might have been") somehow Hilgya's fault. Heck, I've seen the hypothesis of the crossbow being ceremonial raised.

In this particular thread? There were people considering the possibility that being married off at crossbow point was (or " might have been ") somehow Hilgya's fault, given how little we actually know about the whole thing.

[Dr.Zero]

I don't think the issue is manufactured. I remember a time in the forums where there were three concurrent threads (aside from the main comic thread) about how Hilgya was the worst. One of them was called "Hilgya is the Worst", if I recall correctly.

And considering something similar to this also infamously happened with Miko (and possibly the Bandana/Andi diatribe? Those days are hazy), I don't think it's unreasonable to point out the pattern.

Bandana/Andi. Ah the old times!
I went on for pages, literally for pages, stating that tactically the best option for the Mechane was to get out of the heat, either retreating or moving aside, and leaving the heroes there to clean the path.
And, for pages, people said that no, the best option was to move on, at walking speed, toward the heat. Usually ignoring the "walking speed" factor (because, of course, if the Mechane could just move very fast, then rushing toward could have been a great option).
How it ended, eventually? That the Mechane managed to stay in one piece moving aside and leaving the tanks there to clean the road.
Of course, there were some problems related, nonetheless the author himself thought that was the most realistic way to save the airship.

(I still wonder why he didn't make Andi point out that the ship was saved by her plan, instead of the Bandana's suicide plan "keep going head on more deeply between the ambushers")

I don't think that the fans' reaction is strictly related to sex and gender (Andi and Bandana were both females) but more to the fact that they have problems with other characters interfering with the protagonists' plans.

And sometimes the trend of the author himself to paint, at some point, the designated antagonist as totally crazy, as happened to Miko, who moved from an initially good paladin who was technically right in not trusting Belkar -I love Belkar, but he is and unscrupulous murder, for a paladin, who is more or less the fantasy equivalent of a policemen or a sheriff, not trusting the associates of a murderer is natural!- to a very disturbed megalomaniac -ie: the Gods have a plan for me, I'm the most powerful member of the Sapphire Guard, the bar is cracked this means the Gods are helping me to escape (and the fact that they stripped me from my power must be a test, for sure)- person.
As happened to Andi that, even if eventually her plan was right -because it was right- was shown to take decisions not because they were the most correct -even if they were the most correct- but because of a teenager grudge against the annoying child that she babysat and that then was captain;
How happened to the same Celia, who was not strictly an antagonist, more an opponent to Haley, and moved quickly from a competent paralegal, to an arrogant twit (and, dear god, if I didn't know about the author's ideas I would be sure that Celia was a parody).

In that H's situation seemed very similar to Miko's and Andi's: all of them were someway justified, but moved over the top in their reactions/motivations. Fortunately at least in this occasion it ended differently.

[bunsen_h]

Well, that's unfortunate. I'm in the middle of watching that show right now (just a couple episodes from the end of Season 1). Spoiler tags don't do much good if people don't know whether they're relevant until they open the tags. I hope this doesn't ruin that character's arc for me.

For future reference, it's probably better to first identify what the show is, then put the spoilers in tags.

I'm sorry; I couldn't see a way to "win" this one. Even from what little I'd said about the character in very general terms, I think he's more or less instantly identifiable as soon as the series is mentioned, for anyone who's seen more than the first season or so.

Even knowing that aspect of his arc in advance shouldn't significantly harm your appreciation of it. But I do apologize for what diminishment you have.

[mjasghar]

Well, that's unfortunate. I'm in the middle of watching that show right now (just a couple episodes from the end of Season 1). Spoiler tags don't do much good if people don't know whether they're relevant until they open the tags. I hope this doesn't ruin that character's arc for me.

For future reference, it's probably better to first identify what the show is, then put the spoilers in tags.

But anyone watching the show would have realised who it was from the preceding paragraph
Maybe the paragraph should also have been spoilered

[Verappo]

Bandana/Andi. Ah the old times!
I went on for pages, literally for pages, stating that tactically the best option for the Mechane was to get out of the heat, either retreating or moving aside, and leaving the heroes there to clean the path.
And, for pages, people said that no, the best option was to move on, at walking speed, toward the heat. Usually ignoring the "walking speed" factor (because, of course, if the Mechane could just move very fast, then rushing toward could have been a great option).
How it ended, eventually? That the Mechane managed to stay in one piece moving aside and leaving the tanks there to clean the road.
Of course, there were some problems related, nonetheless the author himself thought that was the most realistic way to save the airship.

(I still wonder why he didn't make Andi point out that the ship was saved by her plan, instead of the Bandana's suicide plan "keep going head on more deeply between the ambushers")

I don't think that the fans' reaction is strictly related to sex and gender (Andi and Bandana were both females) but more to the fact that they have problems with other characters interfering with the protagonists' plans.
.

Thanks for regaling me with tales of the old days before I joined the forum fully , consider my understanding deepened. And yeah, the two "sides" of the conflict in the Bandana/Andi situation were probably at a similar level.
Though, questionable tactics notwithstanding, Rich Burlew showed self-awareness of the possible outrage that this new (gay, black, woman, in charge, friendly to Haley) character was likely to spark by presenting that outrage in the form of Andi, who acts much like Tarquin did for Elan in that regard, with perhaps a more intersectional insight on the situation.
And I definitely did remember at least a few people complaining about the casual mention of her sexuality feeling too forced, so he may have been on the mark on that. Again, hazy memories.

Definitely happy that neither Andi nor Hilgya were killed like Miko was. As the writing got more nuanced, so did the endings of minor characters.
Hilgya would have been a very easy character to just kill off, given her animosity towards the main characters, but I'm glad she was granted her own space in the narrative without bringing too sharp a change to her initial personality and backstory. Everything she revealed in this book was more or less in keeping with what we knew about her. Only now we got to actually explore her character and see how she (and the author) evolved (t)he(i)r(?) understanding of the structural problems that led to her situation (I think that was Rich Burlew's reasoning behind her realizing the problem wasn't Ian, but her family).

[The_Weirdo]

There were also people dedicated to the task of curing bodily ailments by adjusting the four humours, but strangely no doctors I've known have ever felt the need to argue against that.

Bringing up old arguments nobody in this thread is pushing for isn't helping your case, is what I'm saying here.

You would be surprised how much arguing the obvious I've had to do at several stages of my life.

At any rate, I took the "less harshly" thing to be in general, not only recently. If I am at all close to an infraction of the rules, please let me know, though.