OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

[Cycleboy]

Nice character growth. Bringing a tear to my eye.....

[BaronOfHell]

Awesome strip!

[bravelove]

Yes, there were possible decisions she did not make that could have been more egregiously reckless and irresponsible.

Not pursuing her violent revenge while things are dicey didn't enter her mind.

Hilgya is toxic. She quite literally put taking her vengeance above the life of her child. Here is three of Hilgya's objectives in the comic, ranked from highest to lowest:

1. Give Durkon what's coming to him.
2. Protect her child.
3. Save the world.

Really disappointed "Wants her baby not to die" somehow gives her good points.

Man it’s a shame that’s not enough to take her child from her ‘she’s toxic’ is not legal reasoning, has she abused him? has she neglected him? Being a bad person is not enough to lose custody, even with her assault on Durkon, he isn’t pressing charges clearly so that can’t be used, she hasn’t done anything that could legally take her child from her, because morality aside, if there ain’t a LEGAL reason to take him, MORALS do not matter at all, because if there is no legal reasons, then that’s called kidnapping, you can’t take him from her because there’s no legal reason that would allow it, it’s that simple, especially because Hilgya has shown to be pretty ****ing ruthless with lawyers if this did go to some sort of court so it wouldn’t be all that easy to beat her if you did somehow manage to get her into court on child endangerment

Also do you honestly think Durkon would do all that? It’s very clear he wants Hilgya to be a part of this, if he actually thought Kudzu was in danger he’d do something, but he doesn’t, a few jabs aside he wants to help her raise the child, he doesn’t want to take the child from her completely, and that’s pretty important

[Doug Lampert]

Assuming that Hilgya's plan to plane-shift works -
how&how long could someone survive on some other plane ?

I don't think there are farms, settlements etc. waiting out there...

High level cleric.

Seriously. Farms, Create Food and Water. Poof, who needs a farm?

Clerics aren't as good at shelter and clothing (wizards can do those), but both can be managed in the outer planes.

[Puschkin]

It's one of the rare strips that doesn't end with a joke.

[Jasdoif]

Interesting fact plane shift requires a very expensive rod attuned to the plane and as she clearly hasn’t decided on a plane yet, why would she have that?

3.5 may require a rod, but Stickworld doesn't.

3.5 doesn't require an expensive rod either, they have no listed price so a standard spell component pouch will contain all of them.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also do you honestly think Durkon would do all that? It’s very clear he wants Hilgya to be a part of this, if he actually thought Kudzu was in danger he’d do something, but he doesn’t, a few jabs aside he wants to help her raise the child, he doesn’t want to take the child from her completely, and that’s pretty important

I think I prefer this piece of a Watsonian take more than some Doylist views. If Durkon's Wisdom does not lead him to being worried about the child's being protected, is that not sufficient?

I think one of the objections to that is: Durkon was not there for the entire sequence of Hilgya's take her kid to work/battle day.

My answer is: he was a direct witness from within Durkula's brain to the really dire part - Durkula took advantage of Hilgya doing that and that through domination used the child as a shield versus Roy's thrown sword. Roy chooses not to throw the sword once the baby shield is up.

I thus arrive at Durkon having taken that all in, and still feeling the Hilgya will take care of Kudzu.

[bravelove]

3.5 doesn't require an expensive rod either, they have no listed price so a standard spell component pouch will contain all of them.

You forgot the focus
Focus
A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures

So once again she hadn’t decided on the plane yet so would she have them yet

[Spanish_Paladin]

No, that was Summon Weirdo III, Spanish Paladin doesn’t have enough Cleric levels for Summon Weirdo X

That's right, paladins only gain caster levels every four levels. But that was an special ritual 😁

[Jasdoif]

3.5 doesn't require an expensive rod either, they have no listed price so a standard spell component pouch will contain all of them.

You forgot the focus

I'm talking about the focus. I assume marketing is why spell component pouches aren't called "spell component and focus pouches".

[understatement]

The last panel literally gives me movie vibes. Up there with some of the best panels in the entire comic.

So yeah, the end of the Durkon/Hilgya arc. It does feel a little off -- considering she still [I]killed/I] him -- but it's great seeing them both trying to do the best for their child in their own ways.

[bravelove]

I'm talking about the focus. I assume marketing is why spell component pouches aren't called "spell component and focus pouches".

Okay now we’re getting pedantic because we have no idea if the forks would fit in the pouch or the size of her pouch etc etc, what I’m getting from this is there’s a chance she could have them, and a chance she could not, which means the thought she could plane shift this second is up in the air and not a definite ‘no’ OR ‘yes’

[Squire Doodad]

Okay now we’re getting pedantic because we have no idea if the forks would fit in the pouch or the size of her pouch etc etc, what I’m getting from this is there’s a chance she could have them, and a chance she could not, which means the thought she could plane shift this second is up in the air and not a definite ‘no’ OR ‘yes’

I'm talking about the focus. I assume marketing is why spell component pouches aren't called "spell component and focus pouches".

Honestly, if someone were tell me that spell component pouches shouldn't have focus components in them that'd be like saying Steak and Shake isn't known for their burgers because then it would be "Steakburger and Shake".

EDIT: Do you guys know what Steak and Shake is or am I talking about some random fast food chain that doesn't exist outside of my state

[Sindeloke]

1) Whatboutism is not an argument.

2) Presenting this question only makes sense if Sindeloke thinks Tarquin was a good father who deserved custody. I do not see any indication that she does.

In fact, "Look how Nale turned out" is, IMO, a strong argument in favor of removing Kudzu from Hilgya's custody, which I always consider making when I get drawn into the eternal Hilgya debates.

Because I do not trust a random church, entirely out of spells, run by a 100% opposing diety to take care of a child while the kingdom is being attacked by vampires, many of them high level. If you mean before that, Hilgya does not seem to have a lot of friends she could hand the baby off to.

"These guys aren't mechanically capable of protecting my child from vampires" is a workable but weak argument, since 'dubious protection far from the vampires in a barricaded stronghold' is still probably better than 'strong protection ten feet from the vampires in an active battle' -- but that doesn't really matter because that's not even the argument Hilgya made. She maintains that he's safest with her in an absolute sense, but specifically objects to leaving him with the Thor clergy solely because they're Thor clergy (she doesn't even know there are vampires at that point). When you say "100% opposed deity" you're sort of implying that they're potentially dangerous to Kudzu because they're Hilgya's enemies, but that's not part of Hilgya's thought process, that we can see; she certainly never felt threatened by Durkon, and never considers him a threat to Kudzu in any way, nor should she expect Durkon's Son to be at risk from his fellow congregants. She just doesn't want them getting their Icky Morals on her son, somehow. That would be so much worse than him ending up as a vampire shield.

[bunsen_h]

Question to anyone who thinks Hilgya should be within 10,000 leagues of Kudzu at any time: how do you reconcile "Hilgya would never hurt Kudzu because she loves him fiercely, even if he defies her or makes her feel rejected (as children often do to their parents, especially as they grow older)" with "Hilgya literally murdered Durkon because she loved him and then he rejected her"?

I know a guy whose mother wrote her will so that he would get only 1/3 as much of the estate as his sibs, because he was a rebellious teenager when she wrote the will, and she never amended it in the 35 years between then and her death. She was... well, very self-oriented. She did a lot of harm to her kids, both physical and emotional.

I'm not saying that Hilgya should be denied any custody. The situation is complex. I don't think it's wrong to be concerned, because what little we've observed of her behaviour suggests that she's volatile and self-oriented. If nothing else, we don't want Kudzu to follow her example.

I mean "okay Durkon, we can share custody" may seem tolerable to her now in theory, now that this particular current fit of rage is over, but what happens when Kudzu comes home from daddy's house with a little stuffed hammer going "for! for! pwaise for!" and the reality of it actually hits her?

A real hammer hits her? I don't know if Dwarves give plush tools to their toddlers; small real tools would seem more in character.

[Draconi Redfir]

D'awww, finally getting some time with the kid while not being a vampire!

[Bobb]

Reckless endangerment, bravelove.

That is my argument for removal of custody. Don't know how you're getting lost in the weeds here.

[bravelove]

Honestly, if someone were tell me that spell component pouches shouldn't have focus components in them that'd be like saying Steak and Shake isn't known for their burgers because then it would be "Steakburger and Shake".

EDIT: Do you guys know what Steak and Shake is or am I talking about some random fast food chain that doesn't exist outside of my state

Personally if we’re going by opinions, I think it’s kinda stupid that a spell component pouch would automatically have literally every focus and component infinitely for every possible spell in them and that it breaks immersion to just Have Everything Ever for any spell in a single pouch? But if that’s what 3.5 says, shrug, my thoughts on that don’t matter

[Jasdoif]

EDIT: Do you guys know what Steak and Shake is or am I talking about some random fast food chain that doesn't exist outside of my state

I've heard of it, though there apparently aren't any in my state.

[Squire Doodad]

Personally if we’re going by opinions, I think it’s kinda stupid that a spell component pouch would automatically have literally every focus and component infinitely for every possible spell in them and that it breaks immersion to just Have Everything Ever for any spell in a single pouch? But if that’s what 3.5 says, shrug, my thoughts on that don’t matter

It might be a bit ridiculous, but it is probably a huge time saver for DMing.

[Jasdoif]

Personally if we’re going by opinions, I think it’s kinda stupid that a spell component pouch would automatically have literally every focus and component infinitely for every possible spell in them and that it breaks immersion to just Have Everything Ever for any spell in a single pouch? But if that’s what 3.5 says, shrug, my thoughts on that don’t matter

Not every focus and component, only those without a specific cost. I kinda guessed it was a design compromise between people who wanted to keep the flavor of all the little spell components and focuses from earlier editions' spells, and people who didn't want to deal with the bookkeeping of tracking all the little spell components and focuses from earlier editions' spells; while retaining the option to say "this is an expensive spell okay? Deal with it" when designers wanted to.

[Themrys]

I think I prefer this piece of a Watsonian take more than some Doylist views. If Durkon's Wisdom does not lead him to being worried about the child's being protected, is that not sufficient?

Apparently, for some people, it isn't.

I do agree, though.

The Watsonian take is the only way to enjoy the comic in general.

Hilgya is a victim of some people suddenly deciding to consider throwaway jokes to be a part of characterisation, when they are not considered thus inside the comic.

If we take it seriously that V uses a "tentacles of forced intrusion" then V is a rapist, which by rights should make V evil. Yet V is clearly not evil when they meet Miko. As I recall she did a detect evil on everyone but Belkar with his lead sheet.

Elan's decision to show no empathy when Roy is hit by a poisonous trap with spikes that would have killed anyone in real life, but instead use the situation to get back at Roy, is not referenced ever again after the panel.

The whole party condemns a Hydra to eternal suffering, because it's funny. Are we to take that as indicator of their morality? Apparently not.


But with Hilgya, not only things that are meant to indicate that she has a tendency towards violence (let's not forget V isn't evil in-comic despite frequently using explosive runes on people who are being annoying) are taken as proof of extreme evilness, but even the fact that she brings a baby into battle (which is clearly NOT meant to indicate bad parenting) is taken at face value.



Edit: And claiming that Hilgya wouldn't let Kudzu worship Thor or even become a cleric is EXTREMELY ridiculous. Really, please do THINK for a moment. Hilgya had sex with a cleric of Thor, and unlike Durkon had every intention of making that a long-term relationship. She probably wouldn't be happy if Kudzu risked his afterlife by not using her way of cheating the system, but she certainly wouldn't disinherit him or anything.

[bravelove]

Reckless endangerment, bravelove.

That is my argument for removal of custody. Don't know how you're getting lost in the weeds here.

that’d be a tough battle to win as Hilgya could easily claim she entered the area not knowing, didn’t trust weaker enemy clerics against her religion to watch her child or be able to actually protect him, that she came originally to only talk to Durkon which is perfectly legal, and that as a high level cleric her only option she felt would protect her child, would be to keep him near and defend herself against vampires, who managed to get lucky and dominant her but the baby came to zero harm, at best I feel she’d just get a fine and maybe an evaluation of her parenting
To put it in our terms she got told her ex was in a church, so she took his son to show him he has a kid, and when she got there there was an active attack but it was too late to flee, not trusting the clergy to protect her child because she had active training in combat and they really hadn’t, she went with the other people in the church with active training believing them to be able to protect her and her child as she contributed self defense but got ambushed and used as a hostage but came out unharmed!
It’s so easy to paint that as purely a victim, throw on a good sob story as she is a cleric of Loki and would know how to trick people like that and she could easily paint herself as a poor helpless mom caught accidentally in something over her head trying desperately to help her child from situations no person could see coming, in a legal standpoint i don’t know if what happened would be enough to get more then a fine due to the fact she had no clue when she arrived and legitimate reasons to believe he’d be safer with her and with no real way to foresee any of this happening until it was too late and she was in the thick of it

[Duramora]

Ok- failed my Feels save on that one..

[Dion]

She was looking for Durkon she didn’t know he was a vampire until she got there and at that point staying with a group of high level adventurers would be safer then trying to leave alone in an area swarming with vampires

Edit: OMG. I can’t believe I’m letting myself get sucked into this stupid pointless discussion. I’m out.

[bravelove]

Oh, well, as long as her original plan was just to ambush a high-level adventuring party with a baby strapped to her chest, its all good.

Because remember, that was her actual original goal. She planned to try to kill a high level member of a high level adventuring party, in some half-assed revenge murder fantasy, with a baby strapped to her chest.

Since that plan didn’t work out, and she decided to fight vampires instead, she’s a good mom.

She only killed Durkon after he proposed marriage, for all we know her original plan was to just yell at him and get him to pay child support, we don’t have enough information there

[Peelee]

You forgot the focus
Focus
A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures

So once again she hadn’t decided on the plane yet so would she have them yet

Even assuming that's the correct reading, it doesn't matter, because I have shown that the rod is not required in OotS. So it doesn't matter in any event, she can go ahead and plane shift to her hearts content. Or, at least, her spell slots content.

Honestly, if someone were tell me that spell component pouches shouldn't have focus components in them that'd be like saying Steak and Shake isn't known for their burgers because then it would be "Steakburger and Shake".

EDIT: Do you guys know what Steak and Shake is or am I talking about some random fast food chain that doesn't exist outside of my state

Terrible analogy. Steak and shake is known for their shakes. Their burgers are just a delicious bonus.

[Jasdoif]

She only killed Durkon after he proposed marriage, for all we know her original plan was to just yell at him and get him to pay child support, we don’t have enough information there

I think she meant "murdering" when she said "murdering", myself.

[bravelove]

Even assuming that's the correct reading, it doesn't matter, because I have shown that the rod is not required in OotS. So it doesn't matter in any event, she can go ahead and plane shift to her hearts content. Or, at least, her spell slots content.


Terrible analogy. Steak and shake is known for their shakes. Their burgers are just a delicious bonus.

Thank you for the clarification, I’ll accept that I totally forgot about the earlier plane shift

Man what kind of rod would that even take, a rod made out of frozen ranch? Gross but neat!

[Schroeswald]

Thank you for the clarification, I’ll accept that I totally forgot about the earlier plane shift

Man what kind of rod would that even take, a rod made out of frozen ranch? Gross but neat!

I'd guess you'd just turn a rod into a ranch bottle.