Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 44
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    It's often said that at high levels full casters are able to outshine any other class in every single compartment, being better than specialized character.
    So the challenge is: can a wizard match a fighter in their area of competence?
    Rules:
    - Pathfinder first party material only.
    - Character's level must be 10, 15, or 20
    - No multiclassing, character must be either full wizard or full fighter
    - Standard WBL
    - If a character may keep an effect for two hours a day burning spellslots or magic items usage it's considered active in this fight.
    - No more than 10% WBL can be used on consumables
    - There is a full round dedicated to self buffs before the encounter
    - Characters cannot affect directly their opponent with spells or spell-like abilities, neither can they use other entities on the fight, not even for buffing (for example, they cannot use familiars or summoned monsters to cast spells or for flanking)
    - Anything on builds depending on DM choices is banned, for example it's forbidden possessing a called monster, it's forbidden possessing/dominating a powerful NPC, while it's not forbidden possessing a construct (or even a summoned monster, if this strategy is actually a thing) if you buy it with WBL.
    - Combat ends if a character is helpless for three successive rounds.
    - 20 points buy (Edit)


    Encounters will be resolved against monsters of CR +1 of my choice. It will be evaluated average damage dealt and average damage suffered.
    Last edited by Selion; 2019-09-30 at 09:13 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Crake's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post
    - Anything on builds depending on DM choices is banned, for example it's forbidden possessing a called monster,
    Can I ask what part of possessing a called monster has to do with DM choices?
    World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
    The new Quick Vestige List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Numerically speaking, a tenth-level fighter has +8 to hit, +4 to damage over a wizard with identical ability scores (assuming Weapon Focus / Weapon Spec), +8 better armor class (+3 platemail compared to mage armor), and 22 more hit points. Any feat, trait, or item that the fighter gets, the wizard can also take. So your question is basically if the wizard's buff spells can top that.

    Back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests the following,
    • Heroism (with extend spell) is +2 to hit and to saves.
    • Monstrous Physique III in the self-buff round adds +3 to hit and damage, +4 to AC, 15' reach, and flight.
    • Greater Magic Weapon adds +1 to hit and damage, since both parties probably want a +1 weapon with special abilities, rather than a +2 or higher weapon.
    • Transmutation school adds +10 hit points, +1 fort, +2 ref, +2 AC. Possibly more if you have an odd ability score.
    • Visualization of the Body adds +10 hit points.
    • Defending Bone or extended Clay Skin adds DR/5.
    • Familiar adds +2 to AC via protector archetype, and +3 to hit points.


    So the fighter still has +2 to hit, but the wizard has 15' reach, flight, DR/5, and about +3 better saving throws. Yeah, I think the wizard has this in the bag.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    turkey
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Numerically speaking, a tenth-level fighter has +8 to hit, +4 to damage over a wizard with identical ability scores (assuming Weapon Focus / Weapon Spec), +8 better armor class (+3 platemail compared to mage armor), and 22 more hit points. Any feat, trait, or item that the fighter gets, the wizard can also take. So your question is basically if the wizard's buff spells can top that.

    Back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests the following,
    • Heroism (with extend spell) is +2 to hit and to saves.
    • Monstrous Physique III in the self-buff round adds +3 to hit and damage, +4 to AC, 15' reach, and flight.
    • Greater Magic Weapon adds +1 to hit and damage, since both parties probably want a +1 weapon with special abilities, rather than a +2 or higher weapon.
    • Transmutation school adds +10 hit points, +1 fort, +2 ref, +2 AC. Possibly more if you have an odd ability score.
    • Visualization of the Body adds +10 hit points.
    • Defending Bone or extended Clay Skin adds DR/5.
    • Familiar adds +2 to AC via protector archetype, and +3 to hit points.


    So the fighter still has +2 to hit, but the wizard has 15' reach, flight, DR/5, and about +3 better saving throws. Yeah, I think the wizard has this in the bag.
    I think you forget bit of fighters common toys called mutated warrior and that lives 22 or bit less stacking archtypes on fighter side considering mutated warrior allows fighter to get native flight speed i can think couple more toys to equalize the battle field. wizards monstrous phsique may be problem
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Shadow View Post
    Threads are like cats. They go where they want, and never listen to what you want them to do.


  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Numerically speaking, a tenth-level fighter has +8 to hit, +4 to damage over a wizard with identical ability scores (assuming Weapon Focus / Weapon Spec), +8 better armor class (+3 platemail compared to mage armor), and 22 more hit points. Any feat, trait, or item that the fighter gets, the wizard can also take. So your question is basically if the wizard's buff spells can top that.

    Back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests the following,
    • Heroism (with extend spell) is +2 to hit and to saves.
    • Monstrous Physique III in the self-buff round adds +3 to hit and damage, +4 to AC, 15' reach, and flight.
    • Greater Magic Weapon adds +1 to hit and damage, since both parties probably want a +1 weapon with special abilities, rather than a +2 or higher weapon.
    • Transmutation school adds +10 hit points, +1 fort, +2 ref, +2 AC. Possibly more if you have an odd ability score.
    • Visualization of the Body adds +10 hit points.
    • Defending Bone or extended Clay Skin adds DR/5.
    • Familiar adds +2 to AC via protector archetype, and +3 to hit points.


    So the fighter still has +2 to hit, but the wizard has 15' reach, flight, DR/5, and about +3 better saving throws. Yeah, I think the wizard has this in the bag.
    How much of that can a Fighter replicate through spending 10% WBL on consumables, though?

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Can I ask what part of possessing a called monster has to do with DM choices?
    Pretty much this.

    Also i'm not that familiar with PF but for 3.5 here's a sample:

    -Persist a fell drain thunderlance/cloud of knives/Ring of Lightninig AND Wraithstrie
    -Have a familiar for share spell.
    -Persist a bunsh of Fighter feats via Heroics (optional)
    -Starmantle + Ruin Delver's Fortune
    -Be invisible (optional)

    You got about 10 attacs each of them draining a level on a hit. You're effectivelly imune to Weapon Damage unless you roll a natural 1. With heroics you can get combat reflexes and have the Fighter provoce AoO within 20 feet up to your Dex Mod. Get a short range teleport methode (Dimension Jumper/Greater Dimension Door) and rince/repeat if necessary. Oh and you can also cast spells since nothing of the above uses your Standard Action (other than if you chose to use the Thunderlance on your turn instead of AoO only).

    Please help/contribute in creating the: Complete list of Magically Created Constructs, Elementals etc

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    I think you forget bit of fighters common toys called mutated warrior and that lives 22 or bit less stacking archtypes on fighter side considering mutated warrior allows fighter to get native flight speed i can think couple more toys to equalize the battle field. wizards monstrous phsique may be problem
    Fair point, fighter gains +2 to hit, damage, and AC from mutagen. And, notably, flight.

    Some wizard stuff I forgot about include Tome of the Transmuter (+2 AC), Greater False Life (+21 hit points), and Shield Other (from protector familiar; +30 hit points). With so many hit points, you can switch transmutation school to gain an extra attack instead of another +10 hp. Fighter is still ahead in to-hit and damage, but wizard gets more attacks per round. I suppose fighter could still go Iron Caster but I'm not sure how that would help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    How much of that can a Fighter replicate through spending 10% WBL on consumables, though?
    Good question. Perhaps surprisingly: none of them. All of the spells listed are either self-only, or the potion form doesn't last two hours (meaning the OP's rules disqualify it as a pre-buff). A tenth-level fighter cannot reliably UMD scrolls yet.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2019-09-30 at 06:42 AM.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jack_Simth's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2006

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Wizard probably wins.

    Wizard builds a Waxwork Creature as Construct Armor. Puts Extend Spell (Protection From Energy(Fire)) and Extend Spell (Resist Energy(Fire)) on it, so it never takes fire damage to disable it's Waxen Regeneration. As extending either at 10th gives 3 hours and 20 minutes (and just gets higher at 15th and 20th), this is active without expending the buff round - and works out to "immunity to non-fire damage" and decent resistance to burning.

    Add Greater Magic Weapon (hours/level, +2 attack/damage at 10th, +3 at 15th, +5 at 20th), Arcane Strike (Swift action at-will feat, +3 attack/damage at 10th, +4 at 15th, +5 at 20th), and... oh, let's go with Stilled Bull's Strength (buff round).

    Slightly less offense than the Fighter is likely to have, but immunity to damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Can I ask what part of possessing a called monster has to do with DM choices?
    At a guess?
    1) Monster must exist to be called (they're explicitly pulled from somewhere, and the spell doesn't give you an explicit list, unlike the summon monster line). Not all monsters will exist in all campaign worlds. This is a DM choice.
    2) "Unreasonable commands are never agreed to" - What's "unreasonable" is never defined, which means it's a DM choice.
    3) For you to have it during the fight, some off-screen rolls had to have happened (the critter gets a save vs. the Planar Binding line, then there's the Charisma check, and a few other details).
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2019-09-30 at 07:16 AM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Animate dead. I have 20 HD of expendable fighter. My corpse bond gives me another 10 HD skeleton. Iíll lesser planar bind a shadow mastiff. Thatís 6 HD more of meatshield that spams panic effects. By the time you have plowed through 36 HD of meatshield the summons are on the field. Thatís before created constructs.

    Really, the statement about exceeding other classes in their area of potency is:
    A. More true in 3.5 (where it originated) than PF. PF fighters are better (unbuffed. They get worse buffs, see other recent threads). PF casters are worse at being fighters. Even a Druid, which is probably the best at being a fighter, and who can personally replace a fighter, has to make fighter type build choices that make him worse at being a Druid.

    B. Shouldnít be read as being better at personally doing a fighters job. If the fighterís job is going first into a room and blocking enemies until the casters can crowd control them to oblivion and then murder the helpless opponents as they struggle to move, wizards do that better with pets than buffs.

    I realize that is outside the rules of the challenge but the challenge is fundamentally misunderstanding what it means for a wizard to be better than a fighter at being a fighter. Wizard dominates fighter in melee combat, total damage, hp, control and expendability. Basically everything shroedingers fighter could be good at. But that doesnít mean that the wizard enters melee in any combat where he isnít just goofing off or saving spells because itís already won.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2019-09-30 at 08:29 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Can I ask what part of possessing a called monster has to do with DM choices?
    Of course, possessing an outsider may incur in plot devices because you are messing with individuals in a powerful society. It depends strongly on setting, but I wouldn't say you may possess something like an angel and not expecting some consequences.

    BTW, while it's true that a wizard may replicate a lot of numerical bonuses with spells, the fighter has some class features that cannot be replicated, while a lot of low level buff may be used with items, for example a righteous armor gives a nice buff.

    The regeneration trick is also nice, but regeneration is not an auto win, a helpless character is still something that may be disposed of.
    I'd like if someone gave actual builds, I really don't know if a transmuted wizard may outdamage a two weapon fighter who has a pletora of bonus feats.

    EDIT: I read the waxen template and it's actually close to auto win, unless the enemy has some ways to dispel the magic resistance or depleting it.
    Nice trick
    Last edited by Selion; 2019-09-30 at 08:40 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Can the Wizard substitute himself for a minion their spells can produce? Some big Bloody Skeleton is probably a fine melee option, being practically immortal vs. most enemies and pretty darn tough and it takes the Wizard exactly one level 2 spell each two weeks or so (Command Undead) to keep it under control (one spell and some money to generate it; he can of course also Magic Jar into it if he wants to fight in its body or something). Iono, something like Cloud Giant for Wizard 10 would be nice. Need 32 HD of animate pool, which they've got with leftovers if they can access Desecrate (there are numerous means, but if you're doing this you've got something).
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post
    the fighter has some class features that cannot be replicated,
    Such as?

    while a lot of low level buff may be used with items, for example a righteous armor gives a nice buff.
    That's really not a low level buff. It also replaces the mutagen in the single buff round.

    I really don't know if a transmuted wizard may outdamage a two weapon fighter who has a pletora of bonus feats.
    I'm curious what feats you're thinking of that the wizard cannot take (other than weapon spec, which was already accounted for).
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmotherion View Post
    Pretty much this.

    Also i'm not that familiar with PF but for 3.5 here's a sample:

    -Persist a fell drain thunderlance/cloud of knives/Ring of Lightninig AND Wraithstrie
    -Have a familiar for share spell.
    -Persist a bunsh of Fighter feats via Heroics (optional)
    -Starmantle + Ruin Delver's Fortune
    -Be invisible (optional)

    You got about 10 attacs each of them draining a level on a hit. You're effectivelly imune to Weapon Damage unless you roll a natural 1. With heroics you can get combat reflexes and have the Fighter provoce AoO within 20 feet up to your Dex Mod. Get a short range teleport methode (Dimension Jumper/Greater Dimension Door) and rince/repeat if necessary. Oh and you can also cast spells since nothing of the above uses your Standard Action (other than if you chose to use the Thunderlance on your turn instead of AoO only).
    Persist and fell spells have been removed in pathfinder, with good reasons, as your post proves.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Such as?
    Power attack bonus scales with BAB, number of attacks scale with BAB, some archetypes give untyped bonuses, like two handed fighter, weapon mastery feats are there, even if they're not amazing. Furthermore, it's incorrect stating that a wizard can take exactly the same options, because a fighter at level 10th has 6 bonus feats and the wizard must expend point buy or WBL in intelligence, otherwise he cannot cast high level spells.
    I'm not leaning toward the fighter in anyway, in fact i think the wizard would win this, but i'm curious of the solutions of more experienced users (i'm quite experienced too, but there are people i cannot compare, and i'm not knowledgeable with martial types)

    BTW, i want to point out that the challenge is in average damage against monsters (selected among those with high physical stats, i don't want exotic abilities on the table).
    Best way is building myself a fighter, even if i don't know the class very well , and see if someone builds a beefer and stronger wizard.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jack_Simth's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2006

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post
    EDIT: I read the waxen template and it's actually close to auto win, unless the enemy has some ways to dispel the magic resistance or depleting it.
    Nice trick
    It's a very evil trick. The opponent MUST be able to apply fire damage, as otherwise there is no way to damage the wizard.
    Even with fire damage, the opponent must either be able to overwhelm or dispel the Energy Resistance and Protection from Energy spells.
    Even then, the opponent still has to get through the construct's hp before hurting the wizard.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Sorry for multiple posting, i made some calculations and i think that at least the level 10 challenge goes to the fighter, at least without hard optimization (i just tried a vanilla fighter vs a transmuter wizard)

    Fighter:
    Spoiler: Fighter
    Show

    Base Stats
    18
    14
    16
    7
    7
    7

    Racial (Human) and level adjustment
    22
    14
    16
    7
    7
    7

    Feats:
    Weapon proficiency
    Power attack
    Weapon Focus
    Improved Weapon Focus
    Weapon specialization
    Dodge
    Armor Focus
    Master Craftman
    Craft Magic Arms and Armors
    Craft wondrous items
    Skill Focus (craft)
    Toughness

    Gear (discounted for crafting feats, i payed half prices only on items he automatically succeeded and with CL lower than his level, because some people think this is a restriction in crafting and in don't want to discuss it)

    keen fauchard +3 11800
    Full Plate +3 5000
    Belt of strenght +4 8000
    ring of protection +1 2000
    Boots of Speed 6000
    Amulet of natural armor +3 9000
    Cloak of Resistance +3 4500


    Spoiler: Stats
    Show

    HP 119
    AC 32 10 + (+12 armor + 1 ring + 3 amulet +1 haste + 2 armor mastery + 1 armor focus + 1 dodge + 2 dex)

    Full Attack: Fauchard + 23/+23/+18 (+10 BAB + 8 str -3 Power Attack +2 improved weapon focus + 2 weapon training + 3 enhancement bonus+1 haste)
    Damage: 33.5 (1d10+ 12 str +9 power attack +3 enhancement +2 weapon specialization +2 weapon training)
    DPR against CR 10 monster (using average monster stats): 113


    I tried wizard too, while actually he can compete in HP and AC while polymorphed, half BAB is a serious hindrance. BTW my unoptimized wizard still deals decent damage, even if way less than his martial counterpart.

    I won't post the full build, because i hope you'll do better, but i obtained this values:
    HP: 119 (toughness, greater false life, bonus from transmutation school, visualization of the body )

    Saurian Form (weapon damage + bite)
    AC: 30 (magic armor, shield, magic gear, familiar, natural armor bonus in huge monstrous physique III form, -2 size)
    Attack: +18 (+5 BAB + 2 Heroism +1 weapon focus + 11 str -2 size +3 enhancement -2 power attack +1 haste)
    Damage: 30.5 (1d10 +16 str + 3 enhancement + 6 power attack)
    DPR: 58


    Four armed Gargoyle Form (using all natural attacks and no weapons)
    AC: 30
    Attack: +15
    DPR on 6 primary natural attacks: 70

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Thanks for doing the math on that, looks like the fighter's going to win this one.

    Turns out I overlooked the substantial attack/AC penalties for huge size, as well as doubling your WBL through crafting. Well, it's good to see that the oh-so-many complains that "martial classes aren't worth playing" aren't true in Pathfinder.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    . Well, it's good to see that the oh-so-many complains that "martial classes aren't worth playing" aren't true in Pathfinder.
    That statement is why I posted earlier. Itís exactly what I was afraid this would get to. The wizard can still invalidate/replace the fighter. He just canít easily become the fighter himself.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2019-10-01 at 08:42 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    The point is that the Wizard cannot out Fighter a Fighter, so the Wizard Tier 2, not Tier 1.
    Level Point System 5E
    Poker Roll

    Tier 1 Master of All
    Tier 2 Lightning Bruiser
    Tier 3 Lethal Joke Character
    Tier 4 Master of None
    Tier 5 Crippling Overspecialization
    Tier 6 Joke Character

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    That statement is why I posted earlier. Itís exactly what I was afraid this would get to. The wizard can still invalidate/replace the fighter. He just canít easily become the fighter himself.
    Well, you did post that the wizard "dominates" the fighter in, among other things, melee combat and total damage. And to be fair, so did I. But Selion's math shows that this is incorrect, and instead the fighter beats the wizard in melee combat and total damage.

    I think his math is fair; if you still believe otherwise, you should show some math to prove it.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    turkey
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Well, you did post that the wizard "dominates" the fighter in, among other things, melee combat and total damage. And to be fair, so did I. But Selion's math shows that this is incorrect, and instead the fighter beats the wizard in melee combat and total damage.

    I think his math is fair; if you still believe otherwise, you should show some math to prove it.
    I think that's due fundamental weakness build in the chassis. try doing act for school prom in middle of all out cantina brawl you need some serious luck to not get beat up. as long as fighter gets close enough he will win but if wizard is just 1 int smarter then he thinks fighter loses the combat due out range and out gun on damage front
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Shadow View Post
    Threads are like cats. They go where they want, and never listen to what you want them to do.


  22. - Top - End - #22
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2015

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Well, you did post that the wizard "dominates" the fighter in, among other things, melee combat and total damage. And to be fair, so did I. But Selion's math shows that this is incorrect, and instead the fighter beats the wizard in melee combat and total damage.

    I think his math is fair; if you still believe otherwise, you should show some math to prove it.
    Actually i noticed a couple of errors that make the spread narrower in four armed gargoyle form: i missed one attack from haste and wizard should take arcane strike in this build. Without making the math again, the extra attack should do around 12 extra damage (because 6 attacks dealt 70), arcane strike should deal 13 damage more (average CR 10 monster has AC 24)
    So the total wizard DPR reaches 95 dpr, which is almost as good as the fighter. (BTW this is actually true only for four armed gargoyle, which seems to be a pretty good battle form)

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Well, you did post that the wizard "dominates" the fighter in, among other things, melee combat and total damage. And to be fair, so did I. But Selion's math shows that this is incorrect, and instead the fighter beats the wizard in melee combat and total damage.

    I think his math is fair; if you still believe otherwise, you should show some math to prove it.
    His math is fair, it just doesnít mean what you suggest it means because his assumption is flawed from start.

    He does dominate the fighter in melee combat. His 36 HD++of minions are engaged in melee combat. He just isnít making melee attack rolls himself. As I stated, he will beat the fighter in total HP on the front line, spaces controlled, number of AOOs, total attacks and net damage. Without ever entering melee himself or only after several rounds as a wizard when he wants to mop up/conserve spells.

    If you want me to do the math I will be calculating something like 2 troll skeletons, 2 ogre skeletons, some 10 hd creature with the skeleton template, and one or 2 lesser planar bound allies + wizard spending the first round or 2 of combat dropping summons. And maybe a construct, IDK. Because that is what the wizard which replaces a fighter in melee looks like. I count something like 6d8+4d6+44 per round just from Animate dead without even buying weapons for the skels. Personally turning into a monster and making claw attacks is the last, least important part of wizard beating fighter in fighterís specialty.

    And yes, their BAB is lower. But they generate more flanking, can grapple with less opportunity cost, occupy 4 10x10 squares with reach and multiple AOOs/round. They will happily lay down their unlives protecting the wizard. And that assumes you are working with trash. Iíd much rather have 1 cloud giant skeleton than the 4 larges.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2019-10-01 at 10:23 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    I count something like 6d8+4d6+44 per round just from Animate dead without even buying weapons for the skels.
    Ok. Now a skeletal troll has +9 to hit, meaning it hits 30% of the time (40% if you flank, but only 20% for the ogre). That suggests a DPR of 85 * 0.3 * 1.05 = 27; compared to the fighter's 113.

    In addition, the CR 11 bestiary contains numerous creatures with DR 10 (which your skeletal army will only barely be able to damage), as well as creatures with Fireball or a breath weapon (which may well drop your army in one shot).

    So I don't think this is as cut-and-dry as you believe. Although yes, summoners are scary and a horde of minions is pretty awesome.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2019-10-01 at 11:07 AM.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Ok. Now a skeletal troll has +9 to hit, meaning it hits 30% of the time (40% if you flank, but only 20% for the ogre). That suggests a DPR of 85 * 0.3 * 1.05 = 27; compared to the fighter's 113.

    In addition, the CR 11 bestiary contains numerous creatures with DR 10 (which your skeletal army will only barely be able to damage), as well as creatures with Fireball or a breath weapon (which may well drop your army in one shot).

    So I don't think this is as cut-and-dry as you believe. Although yes, summoners are scary and a horde of minions is pretty awesome.
    1. As I said, Iím looking at the bottom level of effectiveness. Probably by level 10 you have fought better than ogres and trolls. And that, again, is only 1 spell. That one spell by your calculations is 1/4 the damage of the fighter, before gear, without AOOs from multiple large creatures. Without the possibility of grapple. Not my skeletal minion, or my planar bindings. Or my summons. Or possibly constructs. I could also just buff them. A single cloud giant skelly with a huge greatsword is 12d6+54 at +24/+17/+12 with 15 reach again before buffs. Thatís only a CR7, entirely possible by level 10.

    2. Yes, there are things that disproportionately harm undead horde. There are also things that disproportionately harm fighter to which undead horde is immune or nearly immune. Poison. Fear. Dominate. Energy drain. Ability drain. Cold. Grappling enemies (fine, so you grappled one skeleton....) a sense of self preservation. I can drop a cloudkill right on top of them. Fighter might object to that.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2019-10-01 at 11:30 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    As others have pointed out, the restriction don't really make sense. Melee isn't really a functional specialty, it is a way you attempt to achieve certain functions, usually damage and control. Saying a fighter is functional in melee means exactly what? If you break that down into damage, control, and durability, then you can have a more complete discussion. Ranged spells can deal damage to achieve the HP damage goal. Spells can control area. CDG on a helpless foe is perfectly valid for dispatching them.

    Leaving out familiars is ridiculous also. They are a class feature, fair and square. A familiar sharing dazing burning gaze and dazing snapdragon fireworks to force multiple save vs. daze each round while not further eating into the wizard's actions after the initial setup impacts the outcome.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    So, this is 2 conversations: can a Wizard outfight a Fighter, and can a Wizard reasonably replace a Fighter?

    For the former, it would appear that the answer is "no", mostly. Although a wax-encased Wizard may be able to be roughly on par?

    But for the latter, the answer is "it's complicated". Because undead, constructs, summons - they take up space. They don't perform exactly the same role as the Fighter - how many can crowd around a single foe, for example.

    Hilariously enough, the power of the Fighter is versatility: the Fighter can take up minimal space (one creature), lockdown a large area (reach tripping), get good DPS on single or multiple foes, switch to ranged weaponry as needed, and doesn't stop working (or attack the party) when a squishy Wizard dies. As a single creature, he's easier to buff and heal (especially from AoE effects).

    So, we should think very carefully about what we really want to ask. Yes, we can answer the question in the OP: can a Wizard be a reasonable Physical Adept? And I think that the answer is, "yes, butÖ the Fighter still wins". But is that question worth asking? What does the answer mean?

    EDIT: I didn't word that well. Let me try again: suppose the Fighter and the Wizard were saddled with 20 "princesses" to escort. Suppose that they fought various foes in various circumstances - some of whom may have ranged attacks, attack random targets, use AoE effects, etc. What if the metrics were not just "which one survives which encounters", but "how tough to these escorted 'princesses' need to be in order for how many to survive"?

    Unless anyone has a better metric to measure how a party might feel about someone taking the role of "Fighter".
    Last edited by Quertus; 2019-10-01 at 12:21 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    So, this is 2 conversations: can a Wizard outfight a Fighter, and can a Wizard reasonably replace a Fighter?

    For the former, it would appear that the answer is "no", mostly. Although a wax-encased Wizard may be able to be roughly on par?

    But for the latter, the answer is "it's complicated". Because undead, constructs, summons - they take up space. They don't perform exactly the same role as the Fighter - how many can crowd around a single foe, for example.

    Hilariously enough, the power of the Fighter is versatility: the Fighter can take up minimal space (one creature), lockdown a large area (reach tripping), get good DPS on single or multiple foes, switch to ranged weaponry as needed, and doesn't stop working (or attack the party) when a squishy Wizard dies. As a single creature, he's easier to buff and heal (especially from AoE effects).

    So, we should think very carefully about what we really want to ask. Yes, we can answer the question in the OP: can a Wizard be a reasonable Physical Adept? And I think that the answer is, "yes, butÖ the Fighter still wins". But is that question worth asking? What does the answer mean?

    EDIT: I didn't word that well. Let me try again: suppose the Fighter and the Wizard were saddled with 20 "princesses" to escort. Suppose that they fought various foes in various circumstances - some of whom may have ranged attacks, attack random targets, use AoE effects, etc. What if the metrics were not just "which one survives which encounters", but "how tough to these escorted 'princesses' need to be in order for how many to survive"?

    Unless anyone has a better metric to measure how a party might feel about someone taking the role of "Fighter".
    I think thatís a reasonable analysis.

    I have disputes with little bits of it (wizard 10s have lots of ways to not be squishy. The fighter may be ďeasier to buffĒ but the wizard is actually providing buffs for his minions while the fighter isnít. Wizards have lots of lockdown options, from skeletons with grab to outsiders spamming aoe fear effects to actual spells. Even if fighter ďwinsĒ versus physical adept wizard there are worse PF muggles (like swashbuckler or monk or TWF Ranger) than fighter, so it still doesnít show that a wizard canít outshine T5 in their specialty.)

    But for the most part that was a good restatement of my position.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2019-10-01 at 02:25 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    I think thatís a reasonable analysis.

    But for the most part that was a good restatement of my position.
    Nice to know that I can occasionally a) read, and b) communicate effectively.

    So, regarding buffs, I'll add the question, what if the party already has a dedicated buffing caster or three? Sure, the Wizard can buff his own minions, but is that valuable to a buffing party?

    So, there was a buffing party. Their Fighter died. He could be replaced with a) another Fighter, at the same effectiveness. Alternately, he could be replaced by b) a Physical Adept, or by c) a minionmancy magician. Would we expect the party to perform better or worse under scenarios "b" and "c"?
    Last edited by Quertus; 2019-10-02 at 01:05 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Challenge: Wizard VS Fighter (melee only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Alternately, he could be replaced by b) a Physical Adept, or by c) a minionmancy magician. Would we expect the party to perform better or worse under scenarios "b" and "c"?
    Regarding (c), it's worth remembering that minions have very low hit points and saving throws. It's easy to flippantly point out that, compared to a fireball on the minions, a fighter can be poisoned; but that doesn't change the fact that the fighter has level-appropriate saving throws and the minions really don't.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •