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2019-10-01, 11:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
On more than one occasion I've seen people online going on about the insane damage a properly built Warlock can do after building up their Eldritch Blast, but... I'm not seeing it.
(1d10+Cha)x4 is quite good and all, prob the best of the cantrip users, but in the grand scheme of damage dealing it's not that crazy.
Am I missing something obvious or are people just over-hyping EB?
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2019-10-02, 12:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
Two features that immediate pop out from other classes (which doesn't affect EB scaling as it is level based, not Warlock level based) are Quickened Spell by dipping Sorcerer, and Action Surge from Fighter. For a single sorcery point you can cast EB as a bonus action, then surge and cast it as an action again. So that's (1d10+CHA)×12. And depending on DM interpretation, throw a Repelling Blast on all of those beams to potentially push the target back up to 120 ft.
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2019-10-02, 12:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
Yes, you are missing the fact that martials cannot emulate that damage output at that range. EB with agonizing blast means it is same as a Heavy Crossbow, but Heavy crossbow requires loading, and only has 100ft range. EB has 120ft range, can be boosted to 300, and can be fired 4 times at lv17. Then you can minmax is by taking sorcerer levels which can quicken EB for more damage. Then take fighter levels for action surge and do it again. All of the hits stack with 'on hit effects', such as Hex and hexblade curse, dealing even more damage.
Martials best bet for long range dps is the long bow, but it is d8 damage, heavy, and 2 handed, and costs ammo, and is resisted by any monster with resistance to non-magical damage.
Of course it depends on your definition of 'crazy'. But there's no denying that it is a lot of damage for little effort.Last edited by Jerrykhor; 2019-10-02 at 12:06 AM.
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2019-10-02, 12:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
Hex adds 1d6. Hexblade’s Curse adds proficiency bonus for Hexblades.
Spike Growth plus Repelling Blast/Arms of Hadar =many extra d4s added to the damage.
Sorlocks can quicken, effectively doubling the damage.
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2019-10-02, 12:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
It's very respectable on its own but you can also plug in Eldritch Spear, Repelling Blast, Quicken Spell, Action Surge, etc to ramp it up as well. On top of the fact that it's Force damage this makes it a very versatile and reliable option as well as rather powerful for the investment.
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2019-10-02, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2015
Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
If you basically focus your character on that one cantrip you can make it super powerful. There are folks that find that fun and others that don’t. Neither side is wrong, but they might not be the best table mates for a campaign as they tend to be looking for different things in the game.
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2019-10-02, 12:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
The single biggest damage boost for Eldritch Blast is situational, but it's huge: Repelling Blast.
Did someone cast a Spike Growth? Now you're doing 1d10+4d4+Cha on a hit, AND now they (potentially, depending on geometry) have to waste another 20' of movement recovering that 10' through difficult terrain, which might mean losing a whole turn's worth of actions, especially if you're also using Lance of Lethargy to slow them down. Couple Repelling Blast with the right other invocation and you can maybe pull them back towards you again for another +4d4, and then push them again for yet another +4d4.
Did someone cast a Wall of Fire? 1d10+5d8+Cha.
Evard's Black Tentacles? 1d10+6d6 (on a failed save)+Cha.
Are you fighting on the edge of a 80' cliff? 1d10+8d6+Cha+BFR (battlefield removal, until they manage to climb the cliff again). If you're in the middle of an aerial duel on flying mounts, you knock an enemy right off their flying Nightmare or whatever and it's effectively a one-hit kill.
Each of these scenarios is individually pretty rare, but (1) it adds up--Repelling Blast winds up being frequently useful in one way or another; (2) PCs can take steps to make them more common.
Honestly, +Cha from Agonizing Blast or +d6 from Hex is pretty small potatoes, all things considered, even if you do Quicken.
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2019-10-02, 01:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
I see it rarely mentioned (I guess that's positive) but the Ravnica guide also has an item that lets you repeat a cantrip as a bonus action, no charges. So that's unlimited double damage, as long as you have a bonus action to spare.
To be honest, I don't think assessments like these give a fair view. You optimize the EB user through the roof, with sorcer/quicken and fighter/action surge, and account on hit effects (without mentioning these compete with the bonus action - a Warlock that wants to hex a target, and hexblade curse him, and use quickened EB is already in turn 3 of the fight). While at the same time, you put 0 optimization effort in optimizing the martial and assume non-magic damage (almost unheard of at higher levels, and something you can fix in your build in a no magic items campaign). A Fighter with Sharp Shooter, the right subclass (prolly Battle Master or Samurai) and action surge (just to mention something) can do wicked damage as well.
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2019-10-02, 02:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-10-02, 03:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2017
Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
I must agree as it doesn't seem that people are thinking of what an equivalent character would have, for example I have been looking at a weird bow user myself, while it is rather MAD. This also burns all of your resources in one round.
Race: High Elf
Classes: Tempest Cleric: 6, Artificer-Battlesmith: 6+, Fighter-Champion: 6
Concentration Spells: Arcane Weapon: Adding Thunder Damage
Infusions: Repeating Shot, Enhanced Weapon
Weapons: Repeating Shot: Hand Crossbow
Feats: Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert, Elven Accuracy (Need to 20 dexterity or 20 Intelligence both are good in different ways.)
Attack: +9 with Sharpshooter
Damage: 1d6+1d6+16 (4d4+Up to 5 times per long rest...)
Effects: Knockback of 10' per shot.
-Non-Crit Averages: 23 per shot, (33 average with the Arcane Jolt). 5 attack totals: 115 or (155 if using all of your Arcane Jolts.)
-With 27% for Crits Averages: 31.1 per shot (46.5 with Arcane Jolt.) 5 Attack Totals: 155.5 per round (232.5)Last edited by Citadel97501; 2019-10-02 at 03:08 AM.
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2019-10-02, 03:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2019
Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
Tempest Cleric to max out thunder damage? Without relying on crits you'd probably be better off going Battle Smith 6, Battle Master 11, Gloom Stalker 3. That will give you a first round of 9 attacks, making the most out of your Arcane Weapon and letting you drop all of your SD in one go and an extra d8 couple of d8 for good measure for the Dread Ambusher attacks.
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2019-10-02, 03:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
Actually, I wouldn't say martials "cannot", because with Crossbow Expert and Sharp Shooter feats (okay, in a white room, without feats on the table, warlock wins the price), a Fighter with Heavy Crossbow can emulate that damage output even farther than Warlock with Eldritch Spear Invocation reaching as far as 400 feet without disadvantage, and technically, Fighter with at least 17 levels could spend both Action Surges in one round and deal even more damage than a Warlock/Fighter/Sorcerer
Please be mindful of what you say in public; sadly not all can handle sarcasm or The Internet Credibility.
My Homebrew:
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2019-10-02, 07:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
OP you are missing a lot as the only buff your formula mentioned is agonizing blast. There are several more buffs.
EB plus agonizing blast plus hex plus maddening hex:
Per bolt(1d10 + cha + 1d6) + (cha in an aoe)
Use devil's eye for darkness and each bolt has advantage. Knockback on bolts restricts their ability to counterattack and potentially knocks them off cliffs/into hazards.
That's a pretty mean main attack that can compete with martials.
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2019-10-02, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2018
Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
It's pretty throughly overhyped. The main way to deal damage that shows "extreme wow" numbers is via a 3 turn setup into EB quickened EB for 168 damage *in tier 4* which is... laughably low compared to leveled spells. This is using empowered hex+Hexcurse+EB+AB, +quickened EB + AB, total damage/combat = 318 = 106 DPR.
It's respectable "low cost" damage but only in tier 4. In tier 3 it's... sorta ok, not great but head and shoulders above other cantrips not printed in scag, and in tiers 1-2 it's... nothing special at all.
It's a filler spell in your rotation or a cheap poke attack.
Tier 2 full EB wombo looks like a whopping 72 peak damage turn 3 and 138/combat for 46 DPR. It's... not something to build around.
Tier 1. Use a damn crossbow.
By comparison in tier 4 leveled spell nova damage is something like "It's dead, damage is arbitrary" on turn 1.
I'm eskewing AS because nobody is dropping 9th level casting for AS. It also favors hex1+Fi1+Fullcaster17 because as it turns out 9th level spells, better than +cha to damage on a cantrip in tier 4. Whoda thunk.
I'm also eskewing fi20 because fi20, and the +1 ebberon foci as those are also horrifically slanted against EB as well.Last edited by Nhorianscum; 2019-10-02 at 08:49 AM.
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2019-10-02, 08:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2017
Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
The key feature is that this ranged damage is available to ANY charisma based class with just 2 levels of warlock.
- Agonizing blast is d10+cha and scales by character level. This is decent competitive damage to most builds over the entire level range. By itself it isn't the best damage possible. GWM and Sharpshooter builds will usually outdamage it depending on the AC of the target.
- However, add levels of sorcerer and you can quicken agonizing blast which doubles the possible damage and requires a fighter using feats and action surge to catch.
- Add a couple of levels of fighter for action surge and then the sorcerer/warlock can fire 3 eldritch blasts in one combat round. This gives a possible damage of 9 * (d10 + cha) starting at level 11 and 12 * (d10+cha) starting at level 17. Add wand of the war mage or rod of the pact keeper to increase to hit.
- If you want to take rounds to set it up, you can cast hex as a bonus action (d6 extra damage each) in the first round and hexblade's curse (+proficiency ... +6/hit in tier 4) giving a grand total of 12 * (d10+d6+cha+6) .. however, even without the boost from the other sources, it is still decent at-will damage compared to the other basic builds.
e.g. a level 11 fighter has 3 * (d8+5) as its base damage for a rapier/light crossbow/longsword at level 11. Add +2 damage on each for dueling. Greatsword would be 3 * (2d6+5). Basic agonizing blast is pretty comparable to either of these with an investment of 2 levels in warlock.
The damage is good and potentially among the best available though I think the barbarian/fighter GWM crit fishing builds with magic weapons will do more raw damage ... but it is in melee. (e.g. 11+ fighter/9- barbarian with PAM+GWM will have four attacks/round with advantage doing (d4+17) + 3 * (d10+17) ... action surge adds another 3*(d10+17) assuming 20 str and +2 for raging.
Agonizing blast is one of the reasons sorlocks are a popular build but it works just as well for bardlocks to supplement the lack of good at-will single target damage options available to the bard.Last edited by Keravath; 2019-10-02 at 08:39 AM.
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2019-10-02, 08:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2015
Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
A hexblade sorlock can crank out a lot, but there are a few considerations.
First the numbers at 20, because I’m to lazy to do this at all levels.
Quickened EB/EB with agonizing blast, hex and hexblade’s curse
That’s 8 bolts each doing 1d10+1d6+5+6
That’s a nominal 160 points of damage per round, before accuracy, at range, using mostly SR resources only (or one long rest hex spell that goes for ages. SP are also long rest, but this is one of the few builds where burning spells for nearly unlimited SP makes sense)
Two levels of fighter would let you action surge for 80 more, a total of 240.
But: It’ll take two rounds worth of bonus actions for setup to get there (not that damage is in any way bad while you do this)
Your curse is once per short rest. Once you kill the hell out of your primary target, your damage drops off to a mere 112 damage per round, and that only after you spend a round using your bonus action moving hex to that new target.
Against some hypothetical foe with absurd levels of health, or massive healing or regeneration, ramping up to 160 dpr (before accuracy) is very impressive, but usually by the time you’ve got your hex and your curse on something, it’s already pretty badly hurt, and the value of that number is considerably less.
Precasting before battle?
Your hex needs to be applied to a foe using a bonus action. This eliminates the option of quickened EB that round. Some DM’s may allow you to do this before combat starts. I wouldn’t, but I can understand the argument. There is, after all discussion about some spells that can go unnoticed, I’ve just decided that Hex is’t one of those spells.
Alternatives to hex? Hex does damage, but against high AC targets you may be better off with something that gives you advantage. Some of those could be precast.
Running around with precast improved invisibility allows you to hit 84 damage on your first round, assuming you don’t apply hexblades curse (not everyone is a hexblade) that sounds a whole lot less impressive, but take Elven accuracy and you’ll very rarely miss, crit a lot, and you’ll be quite survivable to boot.
Using an area debuff/damage spell is also a good option, but that’s going to be very encounter specific.Last edited by Spiritchaser; 2019-10-02 at 08:35 AM.
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2019-10-02, 08:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
Figured I should mention that the rogues Assassinate ability also works with EB so you got crits for the first round.
My limited homebrew experience
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2019-10-02, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
One main issue is that people with a longbow or a HCB and CBE, will have archery style and magic weapons eventually, plus possibly bracers of archery.
EB can not be effected by archery, and their magic weapon only effects to hit and not damage.
Ex. Lets say level 11, where a fighter and the EB person gets a 3rd blast/attack:
Fighter:
3 attacks
To hit: + 11 maybe 12 = dex 5, prof 3, archery 2, Magic weapon 1 or 2
Damage: 1d8 + 9 = Dex 5, Bracers 2, weapon 2
EB:
3 blasts
To hit: 9 maybe 10 = Cha 5, Prof 3, Magic weapon + 1 maybe 2
Damage: 1d10 + 5
this is before things like hex, action surge, or other situational bonuses.
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2019-10-02, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
I think that 12*(1d10+1d6+5+6)=12*20=240 is more then 20d6(meteor swarm)=20*3.5=70
This is the damage in turn 3 but I comper it to a level 9 spells which you have only 1.
Full 3 turns will be
4*(1d10+5+6)
4*(1d10+5+6+1d6)
12*(1d10+5+6+1d6)
And the extra crit range will mean 2 out of the 20 attacks will be critical hits.
Crown of Stars is
12d12
83
The meteor swarm is
20d6
70
Abi-Dalzim’s Horrid Wilting
14d8
63
83+70+63=216
Only the turn 3 of the warlock is 240
I assume no crits, everything hit and no one pass the save.
I assume average damage on everything.
I assume a single target as I see the warlock only effective vs 1 target.
Against multiple targets the wizard spells are way better.
Edit:
And I see you edited you post, my post is no longer relevant :(
It took me a full bathroom break to write it so I will not remove it even if it is no longer relevant.
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2019-10-02, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
Last edited by Nhorianscum; 2019-10-02 at 09:09 AM.
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2019-10-02, 09:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
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2019-10-02, 09:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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2019-10-02, 09:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
May I get an example?
And I was talking about damage so I will like a one based on damage, a wizard don't need to do damage to win but the warlock machine gun is all about damage so a non damage example is not nice the poor warlock.
BTW, how do you get 240?
All 6 in a 20d6 is 120.
And the warlock in my example do 58 damage in the first round and 72 in the second.
That is 370 is 3 rounds.
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2019-10-02, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-10-02, 09:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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2019-10-02, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-10-02, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2018
Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
Woops, not gonna lie I'm used to slapping OC onto upcast numbers under the LMI ruling so I totally forgot it does not affect "real" 6+. Let's just pretend I used...
Grave2/Sorc18 draconic for 300 no-silm lowball? Really just using MSwarm as the given example here.
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At the end of the day hex1/caster 19 has 9th, 8th, 7th, 2x6th, 3x5ths. While full caster has an extra 7th and sorc gets... like 10+ 5ths. Hex2 drops to 1 6th.
My end point is that we do more with leveled upcasting and have the slots to do this either every fight with every round use in important fights... or just every single round on sorc bases. This is why EB is... filler. Even before we start getting degenerate with being a tier 4 caster.Last edited by Nhorianscum; 2019-10-02 at 09:41 AM.
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2019-10-02, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
I'm aware of the Hexblade/Evoker/MM nuke, so I can accept that there are better examples, but if you're relying on Path to the Grave + Meteor Swarm here, they don't even work together because Meteor Swarm has no attack roll. So you're back to 145 or 75, save for half.
I agree with the basic point that EB is filler. It is quite a nice at-will, no-concentration attack, but it also can induce MADness and it's only stronger than e.g. a Necromancer's squad of skeletons in niche situations.
EB is more attractive to cheapskates who like to save their spell slots for emergencies than to big spenders who love to nova. I happen to be one of those cheapskates.
Point taken: sorlocks have EB also. Nevertheless I'll answer the question: why did Max mostly ignore Simulacrum?
Because RAW Simulacrum will break the game and I have rewritten it. Vanilla PHB Simulacrum, if used, leads to the game becoming nothing but large numbers of PC Simulacra, fighting monsters while protecting a small number of PCs. Simulacra making Simulacra ad nauseum is possible as early as 13th level, even before Wish comes online: just make a Simulacrum of a Simulacrum-capable PC with at least one level 7+ slot remaining.
A DM who allows full-powered Simulacra a la PHB rules deserves what he gets. In AD&D they are about half as powerful as a PC and need a Limited Wish to gain real volition, and are useful primarily as an illusion not a combat force multiplier. 5e gave them full power but restricted HP and spell recovery; that was a poor design decision.
Otherwise we should be discussing whether an infinite number of sorlocks has a bigger nova than an infinite number of Evokers, and that's a boring discussion IMO.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-10-02 at 10:13 AM.
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2019-10-02, 10:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2018
Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
I think this is a lot of the reason you hear so much about EB being powerful ranged damage. It isn't so much that it's extremely effective as your main attack for a warlock. It's that it's such a small investment for a bard, sorcerer or even paladin (2 levels), and it makes them suddenly competitively effective at-will damage dealers at reasonably long range.
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2019-10-02, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?
Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-10-02 at 10:16 AM.