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    Titan in the Playground
    Aotrs Commander's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Derby, UK and Bleak Despair battlestation. Species: Spirit-Bound Skeletal Lich (Lawful Evil)

    Default Lurk Upgrade assistance [3.5/PF]

    So, as you many have noticed with previous thread in the last week or two, I'm doing a major overhaul of a lot of the 3.5 classes and bringing up to more like a PF standard in the horrbile hybird system of 3.Aotrs.

    I have now got as far as the Lurk.

    (I'm sort of working in alphabetical order, only I firts looked at all the classes that I'd already done once and I'm finding i'm back-and-forthing a bit...)

    So, the lurk has always been kind of bleh (like all the Complete Psi classes, but tackling Ardents and Divine Minds requires me to tackle the mantels first, so I'm leaving them until later...!)

    This is my current work-in-progress. Thus far, it is technically the most complete rebuild, since most of what I've done up to now has been tweaking or whole-sale swiping PF. (The knight, for instance, most killed the cavalier and samurai and reduced them to his ACFs/archtypes and pasted the only real class features worth saving onto that chassis...)

    My philosphy for the lurk reuild is to try and more emphasise the "psionic assassin", rather than just "psionic rogue" (since y'know, psychic rogue is a thing, and I don't want ALL the class fixes to be just "add rogue talents...!")

    On that basis, I'm trying to nudge the lurk more into a role of "one shot" rather than "many attacks" as you tend to get for the rogue-types, because ridiculous SA damage. It's not a particularly covered niche, as far as 3.Aotrs goes. Therefore, I have prodded and tweaked things such that in theory, most of the lurk's damage is going to come mostly or entirely from their first shot. Without putting hard caps on what you can or can't do, because I don't like to do that.


    Hit Die: D6

    No change needed here. I guess if you're looking at it from a PF angle, you might want to go to D8, but 3.Aotrs just uses maximum hit points anyway, which is better on average.

    Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (psionics) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), Use Magic Device (Cha)

    Skill Points per level: 6+Int mod

    (For regular 3.5, obviously unpack listen/spot and hide/move silent, add open lock back in and add or change UMD to UPD if you want; for PF, delete concentration, jump and search.)

    Pretty much the same as it was, with obvious disable device added, and more skill points. Even as an assassin, the lurk will want a fair few skills, but 3.Aotrs lurk is supposed to be aimed more at "kill the dude" more than "skill monkey."

    Level Base Attack
    PP/ Day Powers
    Max Power
    Level known
    1st +0 +0 +2 +2 1 1 1st Aspect, Initiative Boost, Maladiction
    2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 2 2 1st Sneak Attack +D6
    3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 4 3 1st Always Ready
    4th +3 +1 +4 +4 6 4 2nd Evasion
    5th +3 +1 +4 +4 8 5 2nd Sneak Attack +2D6
    6th +4 +2 +5 +5 12 6 2nd Maladiction (Double Charge)
    7th +5 +2 +5 +5 16 7 3rd
    8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 20 8 3rd Sneak Attack +3D6
    9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 24 9 3rd
    10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 28 10 4th
    11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 36 11 4th Sneak Attack +4D6
    12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 44 12 4th Maladiction (Triple Charge)
    13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 52 13 5th
    14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 60 14 5th Sneak Attack +5D6
    15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 68 15 5th
    16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 80 16 6th
    17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 92 17 6th Sneak Attack +6D6
    18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 104 18 6th Maladiction (Quadruple Charge)
    19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 116 19 6th
    20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 128 20 6th Lurk Lord

    BAB you might make an argument for making full, but I'm keeping it at 3/4 for the moment and giving the lurk a little compensation, as well as a nudge towards the one shot.

    Saves are fine as they were.

    Powers, I just went and did what the (Dreamscarred) PF rules did and just added +1 PP like on the PsiWar, because it hardly makes any difference in the long run and means words get taken away (since you'd have to go all on about at first level, a lurk only get PP from int). Number and levels unchanged, but I have yet to thoroughly go throught powers list and see if I think it needs tweaking or anything and any effect on the powers thereof.)

    Class Features

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Lurks are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light armor, and with shields (except tower shields).

    I'm divided on this one. On the one hand, I don't want to shoehorn the lurk too hard into one goal, but the idea that has firmly implanted itself in my head is the lurk whipping about and taking a shot with her (of all things) crossbow. I'm trying to keep in my head the lurk could be whackign great dude with a greatsword as well, but it's hard! There is a temptation to drop the lurk's base weapons to essentially the rogue's selection.

    Powers: A lurk’s ability to manifest powers is limited by the power points she has available. Her base daily allotment of power points is given on the table. In addition, she receives bonus power points per day if she has a high Intelligence score.

    A lurk begins play knowing one lurk power of your choice. Each time she achieves a new level, she unlocks the knowledge of a new power, the maximum level of which is indicated in the table.

    Choose the powers known from the lurk power list (The feats Expanded Knowledge and Epic Expanded Knowledge allow a lurk to learn powers from the lists of other disciplines or even other classes.) A lurk can manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than her manifester level.

    The number of times a lurk can manifest powers in a day is limited only by her daily power points.

    A lurk simply knows her powers; they are ingrained in his mind. She does not need to prepare them (in the way that some spellcasters prepare their spells), though she must get a good night’s sleep each day to regain all his spent power points.

    The Difficulty Class for saving throws against lurk powers is 10 + the power’s level + the lurk’s Intelligence modifier.

    To learn or manifest a power, a lurk must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the power’s level.

    Blah blah, no changes.

    Aspect: At 1st level, a Lurk chooses an aspect to follow. (Aspects are listed in the Class Features document below, this is a forum post, Bleakbane.) Aspects determine the Lurk’s Maladictions.

    Okay first big change - setting up what is essentially the equilinet of PF's Warrior Paths for PsyWar or Orders for Cavalier and so on; he base Lurk will be "assassin" and the ACF's from Mind's Eye become "stalker" and "thief" respectively. Still working on these and what they give other than just "augments."

    Maladictions (Su or Ex):Beginning at 1st level, a lurk can augment her weapon attacks by selecting an ability from her available maladictions. Her level determines the abilities available for her to use.

    At 1st level, a lurk can draw a number of maladictions per day from a pool, which is equal to 4 + her Intelligence modifier. At each level after 1st, she gain an additional 2 maladictions per day. If she can apply more than maladiction at once, each maladiction counts towards her daily limit. Her maladiction pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.

    Charging one or more maladictions is a swift action. The maladictions are expended on her next attack. If that attack misses, their use is wasted. The lurk can hold charged maladictions for a number of rounds equal to her Intelligence bonus before the dissipate. If she attempts to charge more maladictions while still holding a charge, the previous charge is dispersed and wasted. A lurk can use a move action to re-absorb her charged maladictions without expending them; the re-absorbed maladictions are added back to her pool.

    If the maladiction allows a saving throw, it has a DC of ˝ the Lurk’s class level plus her intelligence modifier.

    In some cases, she can use power points to increase the power of her maladictions. When powering a maladiction with power points, a lurk cannot spend more total power points than her lurk level, even if she can apply more than one maladiction at once. For example, an 6th-level lurk could choose to include a mental assault and a solid strike in her attack, and spend a total of 6 power points between the two abilities.

    At 1st level, she can only charge a single maladiction. At 6th level, a lurk can choose two maladictions from her list to charge in the same swift action. At 12th level, a lurk can choose three maladictions from her list to charge in the same swift action. At 18th level, she can choose four maladictions from her list to charge in the same swift action.

    Most maladictions are supernatural abilities, but some are extraordinary abilities as noted in their descriptions; extraordinary maladictions can still be augmented by Power Points in an anti-magic field or similar effects.

    Okay! first thing, as you'll see, is that the name has changed. About the point I had a sentence which read "the lurk's Lurk Augments can be augmented by..." I decided that "lurk augment" was actually a pretty crappy name, and moreover, didn't really sound much like a thing the lurk would refer to in-character (to abilities with kinda are discrete enough to warrent a name!) So, after a little thought and googled thesaurus, they are currently being called maladictions, which sounds so very much cooler. But if anyone has any even better ideas, I'm all ears!

    Mechanically, then, I've mostly just codified them a bit better. The lruk can charge 'em up like before, but they can hold the charge like a touch spell for a little bit (maybe stack some power-buffs on), and even, if they charged it up last round and som fracker killed the guy before they could take a shot, re-absorb it back without wasting it, which I thought was a neat idea that is, I think, unique.

    Biggest change is that Ranged Lurk Augment feat is entirely irrelevant, since maladictions aren't melee only anymore.

    Kept them at "one attack" because of the aforementioned nudge towards "one hit." They are, however, going to be allowed to make that hit a dozy. After careful consideration, I decided that at 20th, four maladictions gave them lots of fun choices and combinations, and as only one of them is going to be maxed, not horribly broken; it also gives some of the lesser options a better chance if they're being picked as 2nd/3rd/4th options.

    Initiative Boost (Ex): At 1st level, a lurk can add her Intelligence bonus on her initiative checks.

    There are two reasons for this being moved to first. 1) it makes sense ofr the assassin-y type to want to take the first shot, and it's not really a powerful ability (I mean, it's effectively just Improved Initative if you don't take that feat.) Secondly, and in my opinon, more importantly, the entire selfish reason that as DM for a weekly campaign, I roll all the iniatives for encounters long before hand on a spreadsheet (when you have combats with seven characters frequently, that's five-odd minutes less not doing anything interesting out of our two hours). And no, I can't be arsed to go back and faff with it once it's done and printed, so putting it in the bottom means the lurk will at least get most of the benefits consistently...

    Sneak Attack: If a Lurk can catch an opponent when she cannot defend herself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

    The Lurk’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the Lurk flanks her target. This extra damage is +D6 at 2nd level, and it increases by +D6 every three Lurk levels thereafter. Should the Lurk score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. The extra damage from Sneak attack is a precision damage effect.

    With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a Lurk can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty, because he must make optimal use of her weapon to execute a sneak attack.

    The Lurk must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A Lurk cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

    PF was absolutely right; psionic sneak attack, sudden strike and skirmish were crap, and just straight SA is the way to do it if it's the primary class feature. Lurks get a reduced progression because they can augment their damage with maladictions, and I felt full would be overdoing it on top of all their other stuff. Still better than they had, though, and it doesn't require them tpo be psionically focussed.

    Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a lurk can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armour or no armour. A helpless lurk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

    I saw no real reason to have this at 9th level, so it may as well go back o where rogue get it. Though at the moment, this position is nominal, and it could slide back further up as better ideas come to fill in all those dead levels.

    Always Ready (Ex): The lurk is always ready to spring nito action as soon as an opening to strike presents itself. At 3rd level, the lurk gains Quick Draw and Rapid Reload as bonus feat.

    Yeah, mostly this is because that idea of having lurk-with-crossbow, but hey, paired with quickdraw, it's a ncie little extra even for melee or bow lruks or something.

    Lurk Lord (Ex): At 20th level, when charging her maladictions, the lurk may spent one extra maladiction from her pool to gain a bonus of twice her lurk level to damage on her next attack.

    In addition, she gains a bonus of half her lurk level to her maladiction pool.

    Yes, the name is freaking awful. I know. I was at the point, though, where I was forcing myself to actually stop doing this last night because it was WAAAAY too late, and I didn't have the requisite few minutes to think of a better one.

    Mechnically, this is basically (and simplified down from) Solid Strike augmented to the lurk ML for free; plus some more maladictions.

    This is he most in-progress part, and I'm very much open to other ideas (bearing in mind 3.Aotrs can and occasionally actually does run into Epic.)


    So, here is where the aspect start, which is still what i'm working on. Anything I don't mention here hasn't changed (yet).

    So, at the moment, an aspect will give you an aspect technique (at level 1), your maladictions and probably some other stuff a bit later.


    Aspect Technique: Studied Aim
    Studied Aim (Ex): By observing a foe, the lurk can calculate the exact moment to strike. As a Move action, the lurk can select a single target to observe. The lurk gains a +1 bonus on their next attack roll to hit that target if it is made before the end of their next turn. This bonus increases by +1 for every 3 levels to a maximum of +7 at 18th level. (It does NOT increase at Epic levels.)

    The purpose of this ability is to give the lurk one shot at what is full BAB, plus a slight bonus, being effectively +22 at 20th level, principally as, again, a nudge towards the whole "on shot" thing. Despite putting in assassin as the "default" lurk ability, I'm very much of two minds about slapping this in the main class as level 1, but I don't want to front-load too much; I don't want to push Aspect Techique to level 2, on the basis that is what gives the stalker and thief their base abilities.

    Maladictions: Use the following table of lurk augments:

    1st Psionic Sneak Attack (Su): The lurk's next attack deals an extra D6 points of damage from a sneak attack. For every 1 power point spent, this damage increases by D6 points. The attack must be one to which sneak attack damage applies.

    This? Is the point to have psionic sneak attack. Double the effectiveness of the original lurk.

    But Bleakbane, I hear you cry. 27D6 at 20th level on a single attack is insane!

    Not really, I reply, it's really nothing compared to the rogue/ninja/invisible blade/crusader vharacter i had to deal with who had a cloak of flying since almost level 1 (thanks, converted AD&D module), who by the end was dealing something like +11-12D6 damage on four or five attacks per round (and who didn't y'know, miss much.)

    The lurk also only gets this on one attack, so it NEEDS to be really good to even have a chance of keeping pace with TWF.

    1st Unfocussing Strike (No current change)

    3rd Solid Strike (Ex): The lurk's attack deals an extra 4 points of damage. For every power point spent, the damage increases by 2.

    Again, this needed a boost quite badly, and even then you could make a reasonable argument about going higher. I don't though, since this is fixed damage and thus will multiply on a crit. It's also the principale EX maladiction, which will be the one lurks will rely on when other options don't work - all the aspects will have this one.

    3rd Stunning attack (No current changes)
    3rd ? (Everything's gonna have three of these (well, two plus Soild Strike)
    5th Ignore concealment (No current changes)

    5th Mental Assault (Su): The lurk's next attack deals 2 points of either Intelligence or Wisdom damage in addition to its normal damage. The lurk chooses which type of ability damage to deal when activating the power. For every 3 power points spent, the ability damage increases by 1.

    Yeah, I nerfed this. Mostly because I looked at the list and went "yeah, +20D6 damage or +12 Int or Wis damage, which is better?" Frankly, I couldn't, and even post-nerf, cannot see an option that is really better than this in terms of damage, even if at level 20 you can only deal out +8 Int damage per turn (and have 2 PP left for another maladiction buff).

    8th Deceptive attack (No current changes)
    8th Sneak attack undead (No current changes)
    11th Ghost touch (No current changes)
    11th Aligned Attack (No current changes)
    14th Sneak attack constructs (No current changes)
    11th Power drain (Nominally gonna tweak this so it also drains spell slots, and maybe Ki points and such as well as just PP - maybe even at this or greater, daily uses of SLA (obviosuly not all at once though)
    14th Stygian weapon (No current changes)
    17th Planar Attack (No current changes)
    17th Synaptic disconnect (No current changes)
    20th Greater power drain (See power drain)

    Quick side track before we get to the next two, for context. Before coming to this (okay, between starting the lurk and then coming back to it), I did a bit of a revision/expansion to perception/search/traps (and tracking) in 3.A. In short, to find traps or tracks, you have to make a search check. Anyone can do it (though only trapfinding lets you find magic traps). Search is defined as being explictly tactile (meaning you're not just looking, you have to be right next to it (none of this "within ten feet!" nonsense!); I stole this idea after listening to how Investigation is used in 5E on Lanipator's Role with Me (which along with the simialr Unexpectables, comprises my entire knowledge of 5E).

    If you have trapfinding, you can look for traps visiually with Perception, but the DC is 5 higher (so it's less worth dumping search for higher perception for rogues).

    [aside aside]Do Thing With Mor etha One Skill But Is Harder With Other Skill is something I use in my Rolemater games (such as when analysing a material, you can use Metal Evaluation/Mechanical Engineering at one difficulty, and plain scanner analysis at another.) It rewards specialiastion without makign generic worthless. [/aside aside]

    With the trap spotter rogue talent, you get basically a perception check as saving thrown, nearly, if you blunder within 10' of a trap and you don't get the penalty on that check. The perception check only lets you know there's a trap there, you need a search check to find the bits to get your crowbar on, so to speak, to use Disable Device, but you get a +4 bonus and, since you know the trap's there, you are allowed to take 10/20 on that check.

    Basically this is mirrored with tracking with Track and Trailspotter. (And something simialr with Urban Tracking, though that didn't mquite match up so neatly.)

    Aspect Technique: Psionic Trail Spotter, Track as a bonus feat.
    Psionic Trail Spotter (Su): As long as the lurk has psionic focus, whenever she comes within 10 feet of a trail or tracks, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trail of tracks, sand he does not suffer the usual +5 DC penalty. This check should be made in secret by the GM.

    Maladictions: Use the following table of lurk augments:
    1st Additional sneak attack
    1st Psionic Tag
    3rd Locate trail
    3rd Solid Strike (added)
    3rd Stunning attack
    5th Ignore concealment
    5th Mental assault
    8th Locate target
    8th Reach attack (Listed in the mind's eye article never described, so that's one ting to fix!)
    8th Psionic stride (ditto!)
    11th Ghost touch
    11th Power drain
    11th Binding attack
    14th Crippling attack
    14th Stygian weapon
    17th Metafaculty tag
    17th Synaptic disconnect
    20th Greater power drain

    Aspect Technique: Psionic Trap Spotter, Trapfinding
    Trapfinding (Ex): The Lurk can use the Search and Disable Device skills to detect and disarm magic or psionic traps.

    The lurk can also attempt the presence of a trap with a Perception check (typically spot) by visual inspection. The rogue must make a subsequent Search check (with a +4 bonus) to locate the trap sufficiently to be able to disarm it. (She may take 10 or 20 on this check).

    A lurk who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

    Psionic Trap Spotter (Su): As long as the lurk has psionic focus, whenever she comes within 10 feet of an undetected trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap, and she does not suffer the usual +5 DC penalty. This check should be made in secret by the GM.

    Maladictions: Use the following table of lurk augments:
    1st Psionic sneak attack
    3rd Psionic uncanny dodge
    3rd Solid Strike
    3rd Stunning attack*
    5th Ignore concealment*
    5th Psionic trapsense +1
    8th Deceptive attack*
    8th Sneak attack undead*
    8th Psionic trapsense +2
    11th Ghost touch*
    11th Psionic skill mastery
    11th Psionic trapsense +3
    14th Sneak attack constructs*
    14th improved evasion
    17th Synaptic disconnect*
    17th Opportunist
    20th Death attack
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2019-10-04 at 01:25 PM.

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