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    Default First kingdom campaign (world building

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    Alright so im currently making my own world that i want to run a game in, but before a fully planned campaign i want to run a exploration and survival game where the players are basicly making the first roots of their civilization. the issue of it is i dont quite know how to pull this off. so far this is my issue

    1st: i dont want their civilization to already have a place they have locked down as their capital or home base. i want them to be able to decide or build most towns and villages, or at least start that work.
    2nd: i want them to be at the point where they can make a castle but they haven't yet.
    3rd: there are islands in my world close to a major landmass where i want them to settle so they need to be able to sea fair but i dont know if thats to far off from the technology level i want them to be at.
    4th: they are going to start off low magic. most likely any player who takes a magic class wont be able to take most divination spells and spells that make survival less important

    Has anyone ran a game where their players were the first explorers?
    Has anyone ran a game (outside of kingmaker) where players build their own kingdom?
    Would this work with a very limited populated world? (the rest of the world would be settling just like the pcs).


    Edit: Go to POST #7, 13, 14 for where im currently at after reading peoples Responses.
    I am going to let this thread get some respones now before i become the only one posting... Last checked 10/12/2019 10:21am "PST/PDT/UTC-7"
    Last edited by lord4571; 2019-10-13 at 12:22 AM.
    mother always said "STAND BEHIND BRAUM" walks... BOOM!!! "ally has been slain" uooh thats gotta sting.

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    Default Re: First kingdom campaign (world building

    1+2. Paizo's Pathfinder adventurepath Kingmaker does this. It's available for Pathfinder 1st edition, with a revised version coming up for Pathfinder 2nd edition and D&D 5th edition.
    Last edited by the_david; 2019-10-10 at 06:09 AM.

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    Default Re: First kingdom campaign (world building

    Quote Originally Posted by the_david View Post
    1+2. Paizo's Pathfinder adventurepath Kingmaker does this. It's available for Pathfinder 1st edition, with a revised version coming up for Pathfinder 2nd edition and D&D 5th edition.
    Pazios adventure seems to do this with an established kingdom already it seems. what i am wanting is the first castle not the 5th or 6th castle.
    mother always said "STAND BEHIND BRAUM" walks... BOOM!!! "ally has been slain" uooh thats gotta sting.

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    Default Re: First kingdom campaign (world building

    Quote Originally Posted by lord4571 View Post
    1st: i dont want their civilization to already have a place they have locked down as their capital or home base. i want them to be able to decide or build most towns and villages, or at least start that work.
    One thing to keep on mind with "early" civilization is the level of development. People most often gathered together into groups for mutual protection, or for some other mutual benefit. This might mean a common threat of some sort, either real or imagined, like "monsters over the next hill" or "something in the night." Fear of the night is a powerful motivator.

    Early weapons were flint, then copper, then bronze. You can short cut this perhaps by having a deity/alien/whatever teach more advanced methods to a few, thereby creating centers of power. Early fortifications were little more than mounds of dirt with wooden poles around the village/etc. You could start out at just the point where tech is in transition to steel weapons and stone walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord4571 View Post
    2nd: i want them to be at the point where they can make a castle but they haven't yet.
    Ok, the natural question is why haven't they... is it money, material, labor? Do they not think it is necessary? Perhaps an early adventure could be used to nudge them along. You could also go the "fallen previous civilization" route, where ruins dot the land and give the natives ideas on how to build things. Perhaps they think they can build it better.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord4571 View Post
    3rd: there are islands in my world close to a major landmass where i want them to settle so they need to be able to sea fair but i dont know if thats to far off from the technology level i want them to be at.
    Seafaring was one of the earliest techs developed. Short distances at first, probably in hollowed out logs or crude rafts, but it quickly advanced. As you say, this depends on what tech level you want. The level of metal crafting (Item 1 above) will also have some bearing on this. Iron spikes and nails are handy. They also need some reason to travel... travel for early people was dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord4571 View Post
    4th: they are going to start off low magic. most likely any player who takes a magic class wont be able to take most divination spells and spells that make survival less important.
    Consider whether the pages and pages of spells in the rulebooks were developed over years - perhaps centuries - of research and experimentation, or were they "gifted" all at once by some advanced being/deity (see also Item 1 above). You can easily blur the lines between Arcane and Divine magic. They share many low level spells, and the dividing line need not be as well-defined as is is in the rules. Are there any gods at all? Where did they come from? How involved in daily life are they?

    Quote Originally Posted by lord4571 View Post
    Has anyone ran a game where their players were the first explorers? Has anyone ran a game (outside of kingmaker) where players build their own kingdom? Would this work with a very limited populated world? (the rest of the world would be settling just like the pcs).
    Nope on all questions... except the last one. Consider, is this is a primitive people just emerging into what can be called "civilization" or is it the many-generations removed survivors of some great catastrophe that destroyed a previous civilization? The first gives you alot of room to work in, the second provides ready-made adventures (ruins) and perhaps a motivation to seek lost/forbidden knowledge.

    Hope this helps...
    "Save your tears, my fetid friends, the dead have Wept enough!"
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    From the Tears of Blood GiTP Forums 2004-09: "20 million dead. Whatcha gonna do with 20 million dead? You can’t bury ‘em, no time or energy to dig the graves. You could chuck ‘em somewhere out of the way. Or you could burn ‘em. But, but what if those things angered someone, or put a bad curse on 'em? Maybe gettin’ rid of ‘em is better. Just a thought. Hey, you could help us!"

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    Default Re: First kingdom campaign (world building

    Quote Originally Posted by lord4571 View Post
    Pazios adventure seems to do this with an established kingdom already it seems. what i am wanting is the first castle not the 5th or 6th castle.
    That's not what it is at all. I don't know how you got to that conclusion.

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    Default Re: First kingdom campaign (world building

    Quote Originally Posted by lord4571 View Post
    Alright so im currently making my own world that i want to run a game in, but before a fully planned campaign i want to run a exploration and survival game where the players are basicly making the first roots of their civilization. the issue of it is i dont quite know how to pull this off. so far this is my issue

    1st: i dont want their civilization to already have a place they have locked down as their capital or home base. i want them to be able to decide or build most towns and villages, or at least start that work.
    2nd: i want them to be at the point where they can make a castle but they haven't yet.
    3rd: there are islands in my world close to a major landmass where i want them to settle so they need to be able to sea fair but i dont know if thats to far off from the technology level i want them to be at.
    4th: they are going to start off low magic. most likely any player who takes a magic class wont be able to take most divination spells and spells that make survival less important

    Has anyone ran a game where their players were the first explorers?
    Has anyone ran a game (outside of kingmaker) where players build their own kingdom?
    Would this work with a very limited populated world? (the rest of the world would be settling just like the pcs).
    Okay...issues...
    your basic #1 and #2 don't make sense together without something else...
    If you have no "civilization" the players will have no tools, no language, and no magic. . . even hunter gatherers have a civilization, a culture etc.
    if you want to be able to build towns etc you need population to attract to them...this source of people will have its own culture and civilization..even if they are not settled, limited to homesteads, or the like.
    if you want them to be able to build castles eventually...that requires significant skilled labor and quite a few people...this will be hard to justify if there are no villages or towns for them to practice and learn how to build in (boats would be somewhat similar-back to specialization of labour again)

    and if there is nobody else (limited population world you mention)you have to ask where those people came from (if they are not settled then what source?) and also why explore/adventure? Also leads to questions of how do they eat? Gold wouldn't be helpful (nobody to trade it to and not enough civilization to need stores of value). how do they get tools? doesn't sound like there is anyone to trade with anyway. And what kind of adventures would you be thinking of having? "Exploration" is a word but you gotta ask yourself why? because your home tribe is looking for advantageous resources, or want to check for threats, or the explorers can profit from something there...except they can only profit from it if other people will give them stuff they want and thus those people have to exist and be able to get those things. . . which doesn't sound like you are going from that base...

    so I'm not sure but what I'm thinking you may want is more of a colonization or expansion type game. A root civilization exists and with work can be drawn on for population, skills, limited resources etc but the area where the story takes place has none of those things and is largely unknown to the home civilization and thus the distance between the story action and the sorces of "civilization" is far enough to have only moderate impacts.

    If that is more of what you are going for combining elements of the Bronze Age optional rules that show up in lots of systems and combining it with the colonization may be extra helpful....lower tech, potentially lower magic (especially easily accessible magic), less classically easy communication etc feels closer to an age where vast regions of the world would be empty.

    as for building own kingdom...yeah in 2e DnD in the Birthright system sometime in the early 2000's. We carved out a kingdom and developed it instead of being given one. But I'm not sure how relevant that would be to you or how much I could remember the details.

    I'd also recommend you search this subforum for worldbuilding threads started by Yora. Yora has been iterating various low magic, exploration/survival, type settings for a while now and reviewing that work could probably be highly helpful if only in helping you to organize your own thoughts.

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    Default Re: First kingdom campaign (world building

    As with the post from above it seems i have some issue in my basic explaining so ill do a better job to describe the feel and intent of the game here. as well as update the original post.

    So to describe where im at currently making the world...
    Right now i have a rough shape of the world, i know where my warm and cold water is, i have a rough idea where my mountains are, i have only one volcano that is there because i want it to be. other than that i have no real idea of locations or climate (its a major work in progress because i like to have mountains but i feel i get to much desert. this time around i think i got the right balance.) rivers and lakes are also not done.

    To do list...
    So my to do list as for creating the world is Climate, Rivers, Locations (such as where people started and ruins*), and cultures. overall i think if i get that all done i should be fine.

    My Intent for the game...
    So my goal here is to let the party make the major decisions of the civilization they will be apart of. the civilization they are apart of are several tribes, (in my head do note anything here is a draft), that has been living together for sometime. recently they have decide to travel to find other land. thus far they have traveled to only find chain islands which is how the several tribes learned of each other. so they are going to send people out again and see what they find this time. Which will be a massive landmass. This is where the PCs will find themselves. This is where i want the PCs to make their civilizations capital and main kingdom. -Note: While the party is expanding so will other civilizations that are roughly at the same development point they are. this world is morderately populated its just the fact that everyone is rougly at the same point or "ages" in their civilizations.

    My Issues...
    I know for this game im going to have to go through magic and limit it. thats fine and should be easy to solve.
    Like stated before i may be mixing and skipping "Ages" in civilizations. if so then the question im asking is "how do i have the game to have an Exploration/Colonization feel?"
    Also the "Why is such a central hub needed?" is a question i didnt think to ask myself. so i will ask "why where such central hubs needed other than protection and grouping up?"
    Climate and deserts but thats a different forum post all together.

    My Intent after...
    My goal after they have fully well established a place is to skip time a bit and have the party then make common people who live in this kingdom or nation, and run a more classic style of game from there on.
    mother always said "STAND BEHIND BRAUM" walks... BOOM!!! "ally has been slain" uooh thats gotta sting.

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    Default Re: First kingdom campaign (world building

    Quote Originally Posted by the_david View Post
    That's not what it is at all. I don't know how you got to that conclusion.
    One the trading post thats already established (and seems very much abonadoned all together until that couple moved in.)
    two: on one of the maps it shows stone structures to show where the party actually came from and overall map of their homeland it seems.
    three: there is a river called "River Kingdoms" so that also gave me the idea that things are way more established then i wanted in my head originally.

    So overall kingmaker is my backup plan but i really really dont want to use that and make what i want so it can fit my world way better.
    plus i wouldnt have posted this if i didnt already do some looking (like stumbling accross they many metions of kingmaker the TTrpg version and the RPG version.
    Last edited by lord4571; 2019-10-12 at 12:32 AM.
    mother always said "STAND BEHIND BRAUM" walks... BOOM!!! "ally has been slain" uooh thats gotta sting.

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    Default Re: First kingdom campaign (world building

    Quote Originally Posted by sktarq View Post
    I'd also recommend you search this subforum for worldbuilding threads started by Yora. Yora has been iterating various low magic, exploration/survival, type settings for a while now and reviewing that work could probably be highly helpful if only in helping you to organize your own thoughts.
    I am looking at yora's post and while there is a lot of good information there that i could use to help my world building in general im not seeing a whole lot for what i'm looking for. maybe i havent looked a the correct post from him yet from my quick glossary (ill keep looking). Even so i think getting some of the of the things answered in POST # 7 will be useful and probably put me on the right path. If there is anything of note thats from Yora's threads or post you think will directly apply you can always copy and paste the post number url like i did with my update to my questions (POST # 7). that way i can get the most direct info you might be trying to point out.

    like i said ill keep looking at his stuff (because there is a lot of general world building tips im seeing) but not going to count this as solved with Yora's threads in mind.
    mother always said "STAND BEHIND BRAUM" walks... BOOM!!! "ally has been slain" uooh thats gotta sting.

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    Default Re: First kingdom campaign (world building

    The Prophet urged them onward. Though he called them his army, they were an army of refugees and escaped slaves. They had no means to fight the army which pursued them, and to falter now meant death or, worse, enslavement by their former masters. They marched on, weary, leaving tracks of blood from unshod feet which had crossed the badlands of Carmaorradh.

    Finally The Prophet said they should make camps on the seven highest hillcrests. Here they would make their stand. From their vantage they could see the approach of the Vidnar chariots, and they wailed in fear and anguish.

    Alone the prophet went to face the Vidna. Soon the High King Ganissan stood before The Prophet and his chariots whirled around casting up a wall of dust. None saw what happened, but all heard the voice of The Prophet shout, and the ground shook so that the people fell to the ground.

    Then a mighty roar rose above the sound of the ground's grumble. Because of the dust raised by chariots and groundshakes none saw what happened, but on each hill roaring waves of muddy water crashed right to the feet of the camps of the people.

    When the rumbling stopped and the dust blew away the people saw a great sea where the badlands had been, and each hilltop was an island in it. Though the hills had been within a few hours walk of one another, they now were many miles apart, and each sat at the peak of large islands many miles wide.

    The people fragmented, each following different students of The Prophet as they learned to farm and fish and build homes on the new lands. But never again did anyone see The Prophet.

    It is said by many that he was taken by the god of the sea, and by others that he was slain by the High King. A small sect of heretics claim he was deified and the islands were created in his first act of divinity, but this belief is suppressed where it crops up.
    Last edited by brian 333; 2019-10-12 at 02:27 PM.

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    Default Re: First kingdom campaign (world building

    Quote Originally Posted by lord4571 View Post
    As with the post from above it seems i have some issue in my basic explaining so ill do a better job to describe the feel and intent of the game here. as well as update the original post.

    So to describe where im at currently making the world...
    Right now i have a rough shape of the world, i know where my warm and cold water is, i have a rough idea where my mountains are, i have only one volcano that is there because i want it to be. other than that i have no real idea of locations or climate (its a major work in progress because i like to have mountains but i feel i get to much desert. this time around i think i got the right balance.) rivers and lakes are also not done.

    To do list...
    So my to do list as for creating the world is Climate, Rivers, Locations (such as where people started and ruins*), and cultures. overall i think if i get that all done i should be fine.

    My Intent for the game...
    So my goal here is to let the party make the major decisions of the civilization they will be apart of. the civilization they are apart of are several tribes, (in my head do note anything here is a draft), that has been living together for sometime. recently they have decide to travel to find other land. thus far they have traveled to only find chain islands which is how the several tribes learned of each other. so they are going to send people out again and see what they find this time. Which will be a massive landmass. This is where the PCs will find themselves. This is where i want the PCs to make their civilizations capital and main kingdom. -Note: While the party is expanding so will other civilizations that are roughly at the same development point they are. this world is morderately populated its just the fact that everyone is rougly at the same point or "ages" in their civilizations.

    My Issues...
    I know for this game im going to have to go through magic and limit it. thats fine and should be easy to solve.
    Like stated before i may be mixing and skipping "Ages" in civilizations. if so then the question im asking is "how do i have the game to have an Exploration/Colonization feel?"
    Also the "Why is such a central hub needed?" is a question i didnt think to ask myself. so i will ask "why where such central hubs needed other than protection and grouping up?"
    Climate and deserts but thats a different forum post all together.

    My Intent after...
    My goal after they have fully well established a place is to skip time a bit and have the party then make common people who live in this kingdom or nation, and run a more classic style of game from there on.
    Okay...lets run a questions before you sketch out a map etc.

    I) does the land the PC's are "exploring" have people in it?
    IA)if yes why can the PC's not already find out what is there anyway (via trade etc)? is it Papua New Guinea Central Valley type situation where all the tribes are basically at war with all beyond their own boarders? (if so how will you deal with language (see that the New Guinea highland hold half of all languages on earth in large part due to the above) and how will they not just be killed in their exploring?)
    1B) if yes are these people meant to be replaced by the incoming tribe your PC's are pathfinding/exploring for? Say a bunch of Orcs etc.
    IC) if no and if you don't have a place to expand from, when it comes time to found villages, towns etc where do the people that will be the population of such villages come from?
    1D) if no it is just full of non sentient species will you have goods, ruins, etc of such?


    as for your question about why PC's need population centers...
    Spoiler: sigh
    Show
    it is not just about HQ's and protection. From the worldbuilding/PC needs point of view it is about markets and labor. Want to exploit a new resource, you need to hire people away from what they are doing and you need a market to sell to otherwise finding the resource doesn't matter beyond personal use. Also in the labour category are supply issues. Want a sword? You need to find a bladesmith (and he may well need someone to dig up iron ore, someone to cut down trees in order to make firewood, someone to turn some of that firewood into charcoal, he may also need a skilled woodworker available to carve the handle of both the sword and his own tools, enough of the above to also make his own tools, quite possibly someone to tan leather (and either a herdsmen, hunter, or fisherman to provide the skin-and they are gonna stuff and people to make those things) for the scabbard and guard, PLUS enough spare food from farmers to keep all these people fed while they do this work, PLUS enough protection, leadership, entertainment, buildings (with associated maintenance unless they are nomadic which is hard but possible) etc to keep all these people from killing each other/being killed, running off to better situations in the meantime......want to write down a spell? okay you need..skilled paper workers, sources of water, acid, and heat just to start plus a whole chain of people to get to the leather for the binding, someone has to make the twine for the binding, plus the ink, and that is before you even get to the knowledge of magic of what has to be written down...basically you need a whole bunch of people to get the situation where any one of them can actually make many of the technologies that are taken as assumed in game...now not all those above people have to be in the same place...that is what trade, wagons, etc are all about but with all those people you are basically already talking about a civilization. This is why I recommend that civilization exists...somewhere else. That way the players can get the benifits of the accumulated knowledge, specialized skills, professional level goods, etc and just not have those be local or easy to get to...this seems to be what you may be setting up with your PC's home tribe being based on an offshore island and pathfinding their way on the main continent


    also IIRC the 3.5 DMGII has a section on frontier settlement/games that may also be useful and how March lords games go. (and classically a March lord or Marcher Lord basically was granted title to land that was on or beyond the edge of a kings rule and said lord could have it if he could take and hold it. Which kinda sounds like what you may be up to...
    Explore,
    find a good area for settlement,
    clear the region of dangerous monsters, giants, and aggressive humanoid tribes,
    attract your tribe members from the isles to settle there,
    organize them,
    exploit local resources to gain strength,

    tribal power centers (royalty, clan elders, priesthoods, specialized craftmen groups, warrior lodges etc) are probably willing to grant the PC's lots of local power over such areas in recognition of influence/ trading of favors etc and such allies may be key to good support in expansion/development/etc,
    prevent newbies coming in later from killing each other/being killed by local dangers/usurping the PC's,
    and gotta do all this while having mild to moderate competition with other groups from the same expansionist tribe (especially one they have some success with people who want to copy them/expand from them) and mild to deadly expansion from the tribes who settled the other islands and are also pushing on the the mainland.

    that seems like a pretty good campaign arc all told.

    also poke around online for Birthright setting..they have made semi-official 3.5/4e versions and have a system of running small national units with actions like mustering units, building development, etc...while not a perfect match for what you want it may be useful as a base to be adapted later in the game when the PC's are running at least a fair chunk of territory. Just ignore all the bloodline stuff.

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    Default Re: First kingdom campaign (world building

    Quote Originally Posted by sktarq View Post
    I) does the land the PC's are "exploring" have people in it?
    IA)if yes why can the PC's not already find out what is there anyway (via trade etc)? is it Papua New Guinea Central Valley type situation where all the tribes are basically at war with all beyond their own boarders? (if so how will you deal with language (see that the New Guinea highland hold half of all languages on earth in large part due to the above) and how will they not just be killed in their exploring?)
    1B) if yes are these people meant to be replaced by the incoming tribe your PC's are pathfinding/exploring for? Say a bunch of Orcs etc.
    IC) if no and if you don't have a place to expand from, when it comes time to found villages, towns etc where do the people that will be the population of such villages come from?
    1D) if no it is just full of non sentient species will you have goods, ruins, etc of such?
    I) Yes, but where on it, idk yet. its a big place.
    IA) This is because the world is a big place and it (in my head) might take awhile for them to bump into the ones already on this land. at which point they will have to decide on what to do with the new people they see because they might look to similar to monsters. (this is if i go with them being from a human tribe only. otherwise they might not be prone to fighting instantly. right now its a "who knows" until other things are worked out.)
    1B) Currently other cultures they may run into hasnt be established but most likely there will be friendly ones and non friendly ones who have either one traveled to this land like the pcs have or two being the people who have been living on this land for sometime and just starting to establish hard routes here (like I want the PC's to).
    IC) The PC's home tribes are on a chain of islands. these tribes have basicly come together kind of to form one major one and want to explore the land they have not traveled to yet or discover new land out beyond the sea (which because they come from a chain of islands they know its very possible to find more land with more people). The party will be sent out first as scouts and then if things go well comeback and give a report and bring more people over.
    1D) i think this one doesnt apply but just to answer goods, ruins and etc.... Ruins im unsure of because i dont know if i want an ancient race to be on my world. the party home land should have enough skill to collect basic goods. the PCs should know how to do this to survive as well, but this isnt enough where they should be ready to trade yet. its more each village so far needs to run itself. i hope etc is covered but im unsure.
    mother always said "STAND BEHIND BRAUM" walks... BOOM!!! "ally has been slain" uooh thats gotta sting.

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    Default Re: First kingdom campaign (world building

    Quote Originally Posted by sktarq View Post
    Explore,
    find a good area for settlement,
    clear the region of dangerous monsters, giants, and aggressive humanoid tribes,
    attract your tribe members from the isles to settle there,
    organize them,
    exploit local resources to gain strength,

    tribal power centers (royalty, clan elders, priesthoods, specialized craftmen groups, warrior lodges etc) are probably willing to grant the PC's lots of local power over such areas in recognition of influence/ trading of favors etc and such allies may be key to good support in expansion/development/etc,
    prevent newbies coming in later from killing each other/being killed by local dangers/usurping the PC's,
    and gotta do all this while having mild to moderate competition with other groups from the same expansionist tribe (especially one they have some success with people who want to copy them/expand from them) and mild to deadly expansion from the tribes who settled the other islands and are also pushing on the the mainland.

    that seems like a pretty good campaign arc all told.
    This is roughly my goal and i like the idea of others being sent out to see as a sort of competition.
    mother always said "STAND BEHIND BRAUM" walks... BOOM!!! "ally has been slain" uooh thats gotta sting.

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    Default Re: First kingdom campaign (world building

    Quote Originally Posted by sktarq View Post
    it is not just about HQ's and protection. From the worldbuilding/PC needs point of view it is about markets and labor. Want to exploit a new resource, you need to hire people away from what they are doing and you need a market to sell to otherwise finding the resource doesn't matter beyond personal use. Also in the labour category are supply issues. Want a sword? You need to find a bladesmith (and he may well need someone to dig up iron ore, someone to cut down trees in order to make firewood, someone to turn some of that firewood into charcoal, he may also need a skilled woodworker available to carve the handle of both the sword and his own tools, enough of the above to also make his own tools, quite possibly someone to tan leather (and either a herdsmen, hunter, or fisherman to provide the skin-and they are gonna stuff and people to make those things) for the scabbard and guard, PLUS enough spare food from farmers to keep all these people fed while they do this work, PLUS enough protection, leadership, entertainment, buildings (with associated maintenance unless they are nomadic which is hard but possible) etc to keep all these people from killing each other/being killed, running off to better situations in the meantime......want to write down a spell? okay you need..skilled paper workers, sources of water, acid, and heat just to start plus a whole chain of people to get to the leather for the binding, someone has to make the twine for the binding, plus the ink, and that is before you even get to the knowledge of magic of what has to be written down...basically you need a whole bunch of people to get the situation where any one of them can actually make many of the technologies that are taken as assumed in game...now not all those above people have to be in the same place...that is what trade, wagons, etc are all about but with all those people you are basically already talking about a civilization. This is why I recommend that civilization exists...somewhere else. That way the players can get the benifits of the accumulated knowledge, specialized skills, professional level goods, etc and just not have those be local or easy to get to...this seems to be what you may be setting up with your PC's home tribe being based on an offshore island and pathfinding their way on the main continent
    Yes i want the party to find new resources so they can use them.
    Yes i want them to develop a normal blacksmith.
    Hunters should already exist.
    Herdsman if they do exist its very small.
    Fisherman in smaller boats should exist.
    it currently should be hunter gatherer style. so while they do get food its not extra. i think i want the party to develop farming.
    Leadership is currently not an issue but will be once big strides are made into moving to the main continent.
    Protection is again currently handled by the hunters and warriors.
    Entertainment in form of stories, dancing, singing, and plant based drugs are probably a thing. other than that the party should be the starting point of those things developing once big strides are made into moving to the main continent.
    Buildings again... PCs

    Their are two questions that have arise from me responding to this portion.
    Boats: while i do believe they have the ability to make smaller ones i didnt think of how they are making bigger boats. i would assume they need wood. wood needs to be cut down by axes. axes are made of metal. i didnt think of them having access to metal just yet. so im missing major things here.

    Writting: i think this will tie into boats a bit. i didnt think of what it took to make paper and/or early outdated replacements of it. other than a stone tablet (which thats going to be one buff wizard) i would want something for this. if boats are a thing i think sails would be... which i think wouldnt be to far of a step before paper? (i could be totally wrong here.)

    NOTE: this is why im here i want to know about the very things i have gaps around and see what i can do about it or have the party how tribe or land start in the proper age.
    mother always said "STAND BEHIND BRAUM" walks... BOOM!!! "ally has been slain" uooh thats gotta sting.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: First kingdom campaign (world building

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    The Prophet urged them onward. Though he called them his army, they were an army of refugees and escaped slaves. They had no means to fight the army which pursued them, and to falter now meant death or, worse, enslavement by their former masters. They marched on, weary, leaving tracks of blood from unshod feet which had crossed the badlands of Carmaorradh.

    Finally The Prophet said they should make camps on the seven highest hillcrests. Here they would make their stand. From their vantage they could see the approach of the Vidnar chariots, and they wailed in fear and anguish.

    Alone the prophet went to face the Vidna. Soon the High King Ganissan stood before The Prophet and his chariots whirled around casting up a wall of dust. None saw what happened, but all heard the voice of The Prophet shout, and the ground shook so that the people fell to the ground.

    Then a mighty roar rose above the sound of the ground's grumble. Because of the dust raised by chariots and groundshakes none saw what happened, but on each hill roaring waves of muddy water crashed right to the feet of the camps of the people.

    When the rumbling stopped and the dust blew away the people saw a great sea where the badlands had been, and each hilltop was an island in it. Though the hills had been within a few hours walk of one another, they now were many miles apart, and each sat at the peak of large islands many miles wide.

    The people fragmented, each following different students of The Prophet as they learned to farm and fish and build homes on the new lands. But never again did anyone see The Prophet.

    It is said by many that he was taken by the god of the sea, and by others that he was slain by the High King. A small sect of heretics claim he was deified and the islands were created in his first act of divinity, but this belief is suppressed where it crops up.
    The beauty of this idea is that it provides a foundation for a base culture without dictating a particular style. It provides each player with the ability to design a home base without dictating the other players' bases.

    It also gives the characters enough of a starting civilization that they can have the gear they need to adventure and a pool of people from whom to draw colonists.

  16. - Top - End - #16
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: First kingdom campaign (world building

    Quote Originally Posted by lord4571 View Post
    Yes i want the party to find new resources so they can use them....
    Their are two questions that have arise from me responding to this portion.
    Boats: while i do believe they have the ability to make smaller ones i didnt think of how they are making bigger boats. i would assume they need wood. wood needs to be cut down by axes. axes are made of metal. i didnt think of them having access to metal just yet. so im missing major things here.

    Writting: i think this will tie into boats a bit. i didnt think of what it took to make paper and/or early outdated replacements of it. other than a stone tablet (which thats going to be one buff wizard) i would want something for this. if boats are a thing i think sails would be... which i think wouldnt be to far of a step before paper? (i could be totally wrong here.)...
    okay a few things...

    firstly my point with above part that you quoted from my spoiler was an explination of why population centers need to exisit. at its most simple is that it takes a rather complex, developed society with lots of people who have specialist knowledge (and others just to organize other people) in order to develop and use the knowledge of various developments. And you generally need a line of knowledge transfer as well... you can't just poof a blacksmith out of a farmer or huntsman...it either requires another blacksmith or a lot of experimentation and time...the body of knowledge is just as important as the raw materials. So if you want them to have access to steel eventually you need to think about where the knowledge is coming from.

    .this is the entire point of the "homeland" idea i was mentioning crops up...the offshore islands work fine for this...
    There are blacksmiths on the island but none have come over to the mainland yet (and traveling there is a major pain) is a totally valid set up. Eventually your players fine iron ore, smelting fuel, water, and bring those to a protected area also provided with food and can now lure an ambitious blacksmith's apprentice over from the island. Until then metal items cost more due to scarcity premiums, lack of distribution channels, costs of transport, and various associated costs.

    repeat concept for whatever skilled trade you want the PC's to eventually have access to.

    now exploring/adventuring is a food and time intensive process. Where your NP's get food is gonna be a serious issue. any kind of permanent population is going to have a food storage system. and basically unless you make a REALLY rich easy source of food to start basically people will be mostly spending all their time finding enough food (sure some Hunter/Gatherers have plenty of free time etc but they are all based in areas with generations of learning what is good to eat, where to find it, how to prep it etc...you people are all new and don't have that knowledge base). Once it is more than a personal stash and you have some sort of surplus you can get other types of people...but then you have food storage more than a personal stash which means you'll need some way to organize how to distribute it, guard it, etc...and suddenly we have an HQ (which you are trying to avoid)....
    best solution I've got?

    no permanent population yet.

    so far the host islands may have seasonal camps from which explorers are sent out...and then they abandon the place...there may be a new camp around that time. but the PC's are some of the first that are NOT going back to the "home" islands at this starting time...This may even be their first real claim to fame. And thus food coming in from the home island (supplemented by what they can find/hunt etc ( but remember that takes up a huge amount of time) is scare, rationed and part of drives the survivalist theme of the earlier parts of the game.
    so setting up a stable food surplus would be the first "civilization" building challenge for your players.

    attracting people to develop a food surplus
    Last edited by sktarq; 2019-10-15 at 10:34 AM.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: First kingdom campaign (world building

    The Paizo Ultimate Campaign has rules for:
    1) Exploration, even for creating the map as it is explored.
    2) Buildings, for if you want your characters to settle between adventures.
    3) Kingdom rules that blends the above to make nation (it does not have to be a monarchy)

    Also about tech trees, you could take a look at Civilization games. For example:

    Take a look at optics (related to making caravels, that could traverse oceans) and work from there what should be available (techwise) to your players.

    [wow, this forum is strict about posting: no posting links bellow 10 post in total; no more than one post per minute, i had to make an unrelated post somewhere else and wait to meet the criteria]

  18. - Top - End - #18
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: First kingdom campaign (world building

    First thing that comes to mind for me: the Civilization games. Specifically the tech trees.

    Coming from islands, a small harbor would probably be one of the early things to build, with fishing being key to survival. Other than that, a freshwater source, abundant timber for more boats and buildings, and an easily defended position.

    Where a river meets the sea can be the perfect spot for an early settlement and later a key economic port city. The river is important as it can allow for smaller boats to sail upstream in search of resources or Neighbours.

    Giving each player control over a leader + group of people/underlings/settlers/skilled workers could help. Lots to figure out though;
    Growth rate of population, how that is connected to food and other factors, training, education, fighting, how much raw materials or processed goods the community has or can produce over time...

    Keep us posted

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