So how is Batwoman?

[Jeivar]

Every aggregate rating I've seen has been dismal. Is it actually a poorly made show or is this another case of hordes of miserable trolls descending on a show about something other than straight, white men?

[BWR]

Having no familiarity with the comics version of Batwoman, I can't comment on faithfulness of the adaptation. Apart from that I'd say it's about like the first episode of Arrow. Not amazing, but not so bad I'm not going to give it a few more episodes to see what gives.
The worst bit was Kate commenting on how the Batsuit would be perfect once it fit a woman. That seemed unnecessary, well, 'pandering' for lack of a better word. Had she just said 'me' instead it would have been fine.

[Erys]

Not a lot of straight white men in the 'cancel culture'...

[Dienekes]

From the one episode. Seemed the usual forgettable CW soap opera dreck that the rest of their shows are. Average acting, some cringe inducing dialogue, strange family relationship/mysteries. I’m willing to give it another few episodes but then will probably drop it as I have with every CW super show.

[Peelee]

Every aggregate rating I've seen has been dismal. Is it actually a poorly made show or is this another case of hordes of miserable trolls descending on a show about something other than straight, white men?

Why not both?

As said, it's a CW show, and it's pretty obvious about that. It's like Archie, or Sabrina, or any other CW show; comically over-dramatic, largely dark lighting, brooding mysterious characters, etc. But a Bat-universe already has most of those elements to begin with.

Basically, if you like how CW tends to handle things, you'll like it for those reasons. If you don't, you'll dislike it for those reasons. If you can't handle straight white men filling the role usually filled by non-straight-white-men, you'll dislike it for those reasons.

[Lemmy]

It's bad. Really bad. Completely forgettable show, cringe-worthy dialogue and one of the blandest protagonists I've seen in years.

The whole "trolls/incels are review-bombing it" is, as usual, an excuse. Producers use it as cheap tactic to dismiss criticism... After all, why actually hear what problems people have with the show when you can just plug your ears and shout "white men bad!" over and over again?

[Jeivar]

The whole "trolls/incels are review-bombing it" is, as usual, an excuse. Producers use it as cheap tactic to dismiss criticism... After all, why actually hear what problems people have with the show when you can just plug your ears and shout "white men bad!" over and over again?

I remember that people review bombed Captain Marvel before it was even out, but okay.

[Jayngfet]

Having no familiarity with the comics version of Batwoman, I can't comment on faithfulness of the adaptation. Apart from that I'd say it's about like the first episode of Arrow. Not amazing, but not so bad I'm not going to give it a few more episodes to see what gives.
The worst bit was Kate commenting on how the Batsuit would be perfect once it fit a woman. That seemed unnecessary, well, 'pandering' for lack of a better word. Had she just said 'me' instead it would have been fine.

I work in Vancouver and in the industry and have a lot of actor friends. That CW shows have some of the worst dialogue isn't exactly a secret to anyone. Likewise if you've seen a CW hero show try to tackle literally any issue from race to gender to politics you'll find they're invariably ham handed and 90% of the time the dialogue doesn't really make sense to what's actually going on in the scenario so much as it is what some middle aged white dude in the writers room thinks 20something woke kids talk like.

Having no familiarity with the comics version of Batwoman, I can't comment on faithfulness of the adaptation. Apart from that I'd say it's about like the first episode of Arrow. Not amazing, but not so bad I'm not going to give it a few more episodes to see what gives.

That's not really much praise. People forget season 1 of arrow, especially that first few episodes, were incredibly rough and super cringe and embarrassed of what they were. It was only really in season 2 onwards when you got superpowers and real costumes and more comics characters that the show really took off and that only even began when it got the season extended into episodes with characters like Roy Harper.

The problem is that Batwoman does not have the excuses Arrow did. It's office is like right down the street from all the other DC shows. It might even be next door from some but I haven't physically driven over there to check. Moreover all of the other CW shows this year took an extra two months off from camera to plan. They had the time to actually do this right. We shouldn't be judging the show from standards of like 8 years ago. We should be judging it from 2019 standards where the network and the creative team knows what works and what doesn't and has had enough ratings ups and downs to know what the public likes.

[Sapphire Guard]

Do we know from Episode 1 why everyone thinks Bruce abandoned Gotham? As opposed to say, being dead, injured, insane, retired, busy with something else, or even just on vacation, although admittedly the last one seems unlikely.

[Peelee]

Do we know from Episode 1 why everyone thinks Bruce abandoned Gotham? As opposed to say, being dead, injured, insane, retired, busy with something else, or even just on vacation, although admittedly the last one seems unlikely.

Imean, he's clearly still alive based on how Luke talks, but yeah, I see no reason to suspect anything other than "is literally incapable of being there/being Batman."

[Bobb]

Every aggregate rating I've seen has been dismal. Is it actually a poorly made show or is this another case of hordes of miserable trolls descending on a show about something other than straight, white men?

Miserable trolls can't stop people watching shows and getting excited about them and posting speculation/praise/reviews online.

[Bobb]

I remember that people review bombed Captain Marvel before it was even out, but okay.

They told rotten tomatos they weren't interested in seeing it. Which is a feature offered by rotten tomatos.


Is it even possible to submit a review before release? Seems like a serious oversight.

[Kitten Champion]

RT changed the system for movies, that you need a verified ticket before posting a review. I don't know how, if at all, they've changed the system for television shows.

I gave up on even looking at the audience reviews on RT for anything after looking at their page for the Netflix She-Ra series. The number of anonymously posted down-vote reviews with nothing on them - or the same exact cut-and-paste response - coming immediately upon the show's release told me everything I needed to know. At least some of those down-vote people were honest enough to say they hadn't seen it, won't see it, and hated it anyways.

Not that I put much stock in the audience score anyways, but that it was so easy to corrupt made it obnoxious to contemplate.

[Jeivar]

The number of anonymously posted down-vote reviews with nothing on them - or the same exact cut-and-paste response - coming immediately upon the show's release told me everything I needed to know. At least some of those down-vote people were honest enough to say they hadn't seen it, won't see it, and hated it anyways..

That is such an odd way to spend a few of the limited number of seconds you have on this Earth.

[The New Bruceski]

The first episode was very busy, as pilots tend to be. Could go either way, I'll see how it plays out.

[The Glyphstone]

RT changed the system for movies, that you need a verified ticket before posting a review. I don't know how, if at all, they've changed the system for television shows.

I gave up on even looking at the audience reviews on RT for anything after looking at their page for the Netflix She-Ra series. The number of anonymously posted down-vote reviews with nothing on them - or the same exact cut-and-paste response - coming immediately upon the show's release told me everything I needed to know. At least some of those down-vote people were honest enough to say they hadn't seen it, won't see it, and hated it anyways.

Not that I put much stock in the audience score anyways, but that it was so easy to corrupt made it obnoxious to contemplate.

You can still post a review without a ticket, they just added a function where you can filter the reviews to only show those with verified tickets.

[Beleriphon]

Imean, he's clearly still alive based on how Luke talks, but yeah, I see no reason to suspect anything other than "is literally incapable of being there/being Batman."

Given that its the same Earth as The Flash and Arrow, rather than say Earth-38 (ie. Supergirl, and you know Bruce's best Super-friend) and Bruce Wayne has been mentioned a few times it does make one wonder where he is. I'm leaning towards Crisis on Infinite Earths providing an explanation.

All that said, most of Batwoman's villains are like Batman's B-siders for the most part.

Spoiler: Who is Alice?

Show

The most significant non-Batman villain is Alice, Kate's presumed dead sister. And is more a riff on Jervis Tetch/Mad Hatter than a new character.

[Dragonus45]

So I unironically enjoy the CW stuff a lot of the time, and with that in mind I thought it was just ok. Certainly nowhere near as bad as Super Girl or The Arrow’s first episodes. I’ll give it time to get the ham fisted establishing of its woke cred out of the way and for the characters to settle. Also my theory in Batman is that Bane happened.

[Lemmy]

I remember that people review bombed Captain Marvel before it was even out, but okay.

Nah. it wasn't reviews. It was a "Are You Interested/Planning to See This Movie?" page. People simply answered. I think you can't post reviews in RT before the actual release date of the film.

Captain Marvel was actually quite protected and favored by RT, with literally thousands of negative reviews being erased (but not the equally dishonest/exaggerated positive reviews). Hell RT even changed its algorithm shortly after to avoid "trolls".

Are there trolls among the critics of Captain Marvel/ Batwoman? Of course! But not nearly as many as access media would like us to believe. They just aren't very good (CM is mediocre, BW is terrible), but by using the good ol' "it's incels, you guys!", producers and those with a vested interested in pleasing the producers (such as access media in general) can pretend it's not their fault, and pressure others into watching and/or giving positive reviews out of fear of being labeled as sexist/homophobic.

Sadly, this still works well enough to allow studios to grab legitimately interesting characters (such as BW, who for a long time used to be one of my favorite comic book series) and use them in cheapest, laziest, most cringe-inducing adaption they can possibly make.

Honestly, I'm not a fan of CW shows... Even the good ones eventually got really bad after 2 or 3 seasons (I'm told Arrow actually got pretty good again at 6th~7th season). I only watched Batwoman because, like I said, her comic book series used to rank among my top 5 for a while, so I was hoping for at least a decent 1st season, and that trailer made it look worse than it actually was... Alas, my hopes were in vain.

[Jeivar]

Captain Marvel was actually quite protected and favored by RT, with literally thousands of negative reviews being erased (but not the equally dishonest/exaggerated positive reviews). Hell RT even changed its algorithm shortly after to avoid "trolls".

I never mentioned Rotten Tomatoes.

[Androgeus]

On the early review point, I do remember, for Doctor Who, that one of the aggregate sites (IMDB I think) allowed posting of reviews on the day of airing but before the actual broadcast.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Aggregators are still too easy to game, so whatever they say need to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt.

Ratings-wise, the premiere pulled a 1.8 (likely to be a season high for the CW), and even the repeats were still above 1.0. That's better than Black Lightning did, and far better than Legends.

Of course, nobody understands how the CW makes their decisions (witness the never-cancelled Jane the Virgin and Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, which would've died before the middle of the first season on another network), so nothing we try to parse out will matter.

[Peelee]

Aggregators are still too easy to game, so whatever they say need to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt.

Ratings-wise, the premiere pulled a 1.8 (likely to be a season high for the CW), and even the repeats were still above 1.0. That's better than Black Lightning did, and far better than Legends.

Of course, nobody understands how the CW makes their decisions (witness the never-cancelled Jane the Virgin and Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, which would've died before the middle of the first season on another network), so nothing we try to parse out will matter.

Jane the Virgin was amazing. I loved the ridiculous, over-the-top telenovela satire.

[Kitten Champion]

Aggregators are still too easy to game, so whatever they say need to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt.

Ratings-wise, the premiere pulled a 1.8 (likely to be a season high for the CW), and even the repeats were still above 1.0. That's better than Black Lightning did, and far better than Legends.

That doesn't surprise me, there's at least one Batwoman ad every bloody ad-break here. My roommates and I have been quoting the snippets of dialogue from it to one another for most of October.

I still refuse to watch it because I'm seriously burnt out in CW in general, but I'll admit there's been a moderate Hypnotoad effect.

[The New Bruceski]

I feel Batwoman would have worked better as a two-hour premiere. Last episode felt too busy, this episode felt too empty, but together everything flows pretty dang well.

[Psyren]

Is it even possible to submit a review before release? Seems like a serious oversight.

It was, until Captain Marvel.

Nah. it wasn't reviews. It was a "Are You Interested/Planning to See This Movie?" page. People simply answered. I think you can't post reviews in RT before the actual release date of the film.

It was both anticipation and actual reviews.

As for Batwoman - I know nothing about it, but I love Ruby Rose, so I might give it a shot. I've got a backlog to work through at the moment, including Expanse, Big Mouth, and possibly Disenchanted.

[dancrilis]

Every aggregate rating I've seen has been dismal.

Best advise here may be for you to watch an episode and see what you think - reading and relying on opinions from randomers online might not give you an accurate impression.
If 'non-batman batman themed superhero' sounds like something you could enjoy maybe give it a go, if not maybe give it a miss.

Is it actually a poorly made show

It is so far not poorly made in comparison to other similiar shows (about mid ranked, maybe higher) and looks like it could go to some good places but (personal feeling) more likely adopt protaganist centered morality and overt social messaging like many other shows.

or is this another case of hordes of miserable trolls descending on a show about something other than straight, white men?

I suspect that nobody who is only interested in a show with a straight, white male lead is paying too much attention to a show called batwoman - but if you believe that the aggregates you are reviewing are baised it would be another reason not to trust them and make up your own mind.

[Rogar Demonblud]

more likely adopt protagonist centered morality and overt social messaging like many other shows.

You mean like the rest of the CW super set? It's a pretty big chunk of their formula.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Lemmy
It's bad. Really bad. Completely forgettable show, cringe-worthy dialogue and one of the blandest protagonists I've seen in years.

This was my experience during the first fifteen minutes of the pilot, which was all I could force myself to watch.

It was poorly done, with especially poor choices in editing and dialogue, and so utterly full of itself with the dark edgy ponderous whatever-ness. It took itself so absurdly seriously, when it was as lightweight as styrofoam. Even the supposed villain wasn’t remotely concerning.

Apart from being silly and contrived, there was absolutely no reason for me to care about the Batwoman-to-be. I cared much more about Lisbeth Salander in the Dragon Tattoo movie, even though she’s aggressively unlikable, because Lisbeth is also lonely, confused and isolated, all of which makes her a character with complex vulnerabilities.

Batwoman-to-be (can’t even remember her name) had none of that, just a bland hardcore attitude which the actress couldn’t deliver effectively. Poor choice in casting, as well. Between her inability to create a compelling character, plus all of the above, the show just didn’t offer anything to interest me.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

This was my experience during the first fifteen minutes of the pilot, which was all I could force myself to watch.

It was poorly done, with especially poor choices in editing and dialogue, and so utterly full of itself with the dark edgy ponderous whatever-ness. It took itself so absurdly seriously, when it was as lightweight as styrofoam. Even the supposed villain wasn’t remotely concerning.

Apart from being silly and contrived, there was absolutely no reason for me to care about the Batwoman-to-be. I cared much more about Lisbeth Salander in the Dragon Tattoo movie, even though she’s aggressively unlikable, because Lisbeth is also lonely, confused and isolated, all of which makes her a character with complex vulnerabilities.

Batwoman-to-be (can’t even remember her name) had none of that, just a bland hardcore attitude which the actress couldn’t deliver effectively. Poor choice in casting, as well. Between her inability to create a compelling character, plus all of the above, the show just didn’t offer anything to interest me.

Sometimes a lot of negative reviews make me want to watch a show. It worked for Bright. I started it one night @ midnight expecting comical nothingness while I painted mini's. Two hours later I had no more mini painting done and an idea which reviewers I disagreed with.

Save for the cussing. Bright had very frequent and repetitive cussing which limits its audience more than the violence somehow. Hopefully Brighter or whatever #2 is called gets a script re-read.

So I'll probably try Batwoman just to see what the hate is all about. I can moderately enjoy Supergirl while the kids are around, sounds like this won't be the same. Some of the others just aren't fun. I don't need the suicidal seriousness of Battlestar or the Archie reboot out of every show (edit: I Battlestar is one of my favorites but a show better be GREAT to be that draining)