Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

[NigelWalmsley]

My understanding is that it's significantly more versatile, a different form of power. An Ubercharger is great at one task that's not always the right answer to your problem. But I didn't vote on MoI classes specifically because I've never used them.

I don't think versatility is "a different form of power". It's a different thing from power, and it looks to me like the Incarnate's versatility is that it gets to be kind of medium at a bunch of different stuff. I'm with you as far as the "never using them" goes, but the arguments in favor of the Incarnate people are articulating don't seem super compelling to me. For example, the Incarnate can get very big bonuses to a bunch of different skills, and can shuffle those bonuses around. But very big bonuses to skills mostly don't do anything terribly exciting unless those skills are named "Use Magic Device" or "Diplomacy", and the Incarnate's bonuses aren't as big as someone dedicated to cheesing up those skills.

The incarnate can have 3d6+1 touch or ranged touch attack at level 1. Its poor attack bonus is countered by it being a touch attack, and the +1 from lucky dice.

Sure, you can get a very big attack at level 1. But my understanding is that doesn't scale nearly as impressively. You don't have a 30d6+10 attack at level 10, or a 60d6+20 attack at level twenty. So the Incarnate does seem pretty good at level 1. But that's at level 1. And level 1 is a really screwy place that doesn't correlate well with the rest of the game. At level one, the best classes in the game are something like Beguiler/Cleric/Druid/Tome of Battle. That's not how the game looks overall.

[Lans]

Sure, you can get a very big attack at level 1. But my understanding is that doesn't scale nearly as impressively. You don't have a 30d6+10 attack at level 10, or a 60d6+20 attack at level twenty. So the Incarnate does seem pretty good at level 1. But that's at level 1. And level 1 is a really screwy place that doesn't correlate well with the rest of the game. At level one, the best classes in the game are something like Beguiler/Cleric/Druid/Tome of Battle. That's not how the game looks overall.

It might not scale impressively, but it stays at or above the d6/level that I consider to be the baseline of competence for the first half of the game for a ranged touch attack. The same for skills. If you have a different baseline I would like to hear it.

[NigelWalmsley]

It might not scale impressively, but it stays at or above the d6/level that I consider to be the baseline of competence for the first half of the game for a ranged touch attack. The same for skills. If you have a different baseline I would like to hear it.

How? You get 3d6 at base, and by 10th level you've gained two additional points of essentia investment (+1 for level 6, +1 for Expanded soulmeld capacity). That's 5d6, which is closer to the Sneak Attack a Rogue-equivalent gets on every attack. It's quite possible I'm missing some bonuses, but you should be explicit about your math.

As far as skills go, I don't particularly care. Level-appropriate skill bonuses are simply not a big deal. The Expert gets them, and it is at the very bottom of T5. If you gave it enough skill points to have every skill (which would be dramatically superior to the Incarnate), I doubt it would rise even to the middle of T4. Competency in skills isn't worth very much, because skills don't do very much.

[Luccan]

I don't think versatility is "a different form of power". It's a different thing from power, and it looks to me like the Incarnate's versatility is that it gets to be kind of medium at a bunch of different stuff. I'm with you as far as the "never using them" goes, but the arguments in favor of the Incarnate people are articulating don't seem super compelling to me. For example, the Incarnate can get very big bonuses to a bunch of different skills, and can shuffle those bonuses around. But very big bonuses to skills mostly don't do anything terribly exciting unless those skills are named "Use Magic Device" or "Diplomacy", and the Incarnate's bonuses aren't as big as someone dedicated to cheesing up those skills.

Unless you're playing a particularly high-power or cheesy game, I don't think acting like UMD and Diplomacy are the only skills that matter is honest. They're only rated T3/4, a range at which being able to be good at a bunch of skills can actually matter. Most of that range is made up of flexible classes that don't dominate in every niche they touch on, but are still perfectly capable of pulling their own weight in those areas (and more importantly, don't immediately fall apart if they need to do something different). The things that can hit really hard and that's all they can really do are the outliers.

[Lans]

How? You get 3d6 at base, and by 10th level you've gained two additional points of essentia investment (+1 for level 6, +1 for Expanded soulmeld capacity). That's 5d6, which is closer to the Sneak Attack a Rogue-equivalent gets on every attack. It's quite possible I'm missing some bonuses, but you should be explicit about your math.

The effects of individual soulmelds may not be much, but they are often stack able. It has 3d6+1 at level 1 with lightning gauntlets and lucky dice, second add incarnate avatar for another +2 damage, at 3rd add another essentia to the lightning gauntlets, at 4th another point to incarnate avatar, at 6th another point in both the gauntlets and Incarnate avatar. So 5d6+7. Another improved essentia capacity takes it to 5d6+9 at 7th and 8th. At 9th add Bloodwar Gauntlets for another 3 points of damage. Then it can use its radiance ability on top of this for another 2 at 3rd, 4 at 5th and 6 at 10th.

As far as skills go, I don't particularly care. Level-appropriate skill bonuses are simply not a big deal. The Expert gets them, and it is at the very bottom of T5. If you gave it enough skill points to have every skill (which would be dramatically superior to the Incarnate), I doubt it would rise even to the middle of T4. Competency in skills isn't worth very much, because skills don't do very much.

The importance of skills depends on campaign, but being able to swap into a scout or social role on the fly is useful in most campaigns.

[NigelWalmsley]

Unless you're playing a particularly high-power or cheesy game, I don't think acting like UMD and Diplomacy are the only skills that matter is honest. They're only rated T3/4, a range at which being able to be good at a bunch of skills can actually matter.

Then why is the Expert, a class whose sole claim to fame is being good at a bunch of skills, at the literal bottom of T5? The question "how good are some level-appropriate skill bonuses" was asked, and the answer was T5/T6. How then can we are that "some level-appropriate skill bonuses" are an argument for a class being T3/T4?

The effects of individual soulmelds may not be much, but they are often stack able. It has 3d6+1 at level 1 with lightning gauntlets and lucky dice, second add incarnate avatar for another +2 damage, at 3rd add another essentia to the lightning gauntlets, at 4th another point to incarnate avatar, at 6th another point in both the gauntlets and Incarnate avatar. So 5d6+7. Another improved essentia capacity takes it to 5d6+9 at 7th and 8th. At 9th add Bloodwar Gauntlets for another 3 points of damage. Then it can use its radiance ability on top of this for another 2 at 3rd, 4 at 5th and 6 at 10th.

We're still talking about something that does as much damage as a single sneak attack (maybe slightly more, but remember the Rogue is getting base weapon damage), at a level when a TWF Rogue could get four. And look at all you're investing in that. It's getting all your essentia, and it requires you to sink in feats. This is a far cry from the easy versatility attributed to the Incarnate.

The importance of skills depends on campaign, but being able to swap into a scout or social role on the fly is useful in most campaigns.

What scout and social skills does it get? I was under the impression there aren't soulmelds for every skill.

[Gnaeus]

Then why is the Expert, a class whose sole claim to fame is being good at a bunch of skills, at the literal bottom of T5? The question "how good are some level-appropriate skill bonuses" was asked, and the answer was T5/T6. How then can we are that "some level-appropriate skill bonuses" are an argument for a class being T3/T4?

Because powers are cumulative. And it’s a combat game, so being useless in combat is a bad thing. The expert is clearly worse than ninja (same skill points on a chassis with class abilities) or truenamer (slightly less skill points but has utterances and class abilities that give large skill bonuses). And being about a tier behind them reflects that. The incarnate can be capable in combat, or it can operate effectively on a wider range of skills than an expert, or it can use other utility powers like flight. If you gave fighter an expert gestalt it would go up from bottom to top tier 4. And if you gave fighter a bunch of situational immunities and tricks like flight and resistances it would probably be tier 3. And look a lot like an incarnate.

[BlackLamb]

This reasoning just doesn't make much sense. You're saying that the presence of more spells on these classes reduces their tier. More spells is better. It lets you do more stuff.

Access to healing spells carries with it an obligation. An obligation that reduces their other options. It's a spell tax on either spells prepared or spells known.

I don't expect to change anyone's mind. Just calling it like I see it.

You have the archivist, a class with an incredible spell list, the same as a bard, who is a bard. You ranked the favored soul below the bard. Which, again, is a bard. Do you really think the bard list compares favorably to the favored soul list? It makes no sense.

I think at low levels the Bard's spells, skills and class features is more powerful than the Favored Soul's spells, skills and class features. At mid levels they're about the same. At high level the Favored Soul pulls ahead. Since I'm valuing mid levels over low levels and low levels over high levels, then I rank the Bard over the Favored Soul. The Bard's alright.

There's a smaller stretch of levels in which the Bard is more powerful than the Archivist and a larger stretch of levels in which the Archivist is more powerful than the Bard. The Archivist could be somewhere between the Cleric and the Bard in power. How should I best express that in a tier list?

The capacity to beat things up is something the cleric has. It is not the central defining feature of the class. You keep pointing to these things the class does well as bad things, as though it's bad to be really good at stabbing stuff.

I don't think it's bad to be good at stabbing stuff.

My position is that I think the Wizard and the Druid are the most powerful classes and that the Cleric, although very powerful, is not on their level. The consensus is that the Cleric is and for reasons that the consensus sees as self-evident. I'm in a position of defending a negative against an argument I don't see the positive for.

CoDzilla isn't proof of the Cleric's power. What is? It can't be the Cleric Archer, that's just CoDzilla at ranged. Is it undead minionmancy? That's something. The spells with the Death or Evil tag are pretty killer. Should Bad Guy Clerics be put on a separate tier from Good Guy Clerics?

I don't see how Cleric spells are as powerful as Wizard spells, or how Cleric spells and class features are as powerful as Druid spells and class features.

A wizard will usually be ahead of a cleric spell-wise, a thing that is compensated for somewhat early on by stats and such. You are above dismissive of fighting capability, but fighters don't compare all that poorly to wizards in the opening levels. Combine that with the solid list, and clerics are ahead of the wizard for a reasonable stretch early on. This relationship is reversed with the druid. Druids probably win the comparison for the first, say, ten or so levels. Past that? The cleric is likely advantaged. Druids get pretty awful 7th's and 8th's, even considered across all the books, and 6th's are just okay. As for domains, some of them are quite strong across the whole level range. You don't necessarily have to make some big sacrifice.

The Fighter does contribute at lower levels, something I tried to convey when I put the Fighter in Tier 5.

I see the Wizard spell list as so powerful that it's very hard for other classes to compare. It's so powerful that the Sorcerer, a class that only has delayed and limited access to it and nothing at else at all to commend it, is Tier 2 in power.

If the Cleric is equal to the Wizard power-wise, and that's a big if, then it's only true at low levels. And mid levels matter more than low levels. If the Cleric is equal to or even surpasses the Druid in power, then it's only true at high levels, and mid levels and low levels matter more than high levels.

Domains are a powerful class feature, so powerful that I put Cleric like classes that don't have access to it on lower tiers of power.

[Luccan]

Then why is the Expert, a class whose sole claim to fame is being good at a bunch of skills, at the literal bottom of T5? The question "how good are some level-appropriate skill bonuses" was asked, and the answer was T5/T6. How then can we are that "some level-appropriate skill bonuses" are an argument for a class being T3/T4?

Because, as I think everyone has noticed by this point but which is soundly being ignored for some reason, the class isn't just skill bonuses or just a combat trick. It has a multitude of abilities. Being good at skills is part of the reason. But as I already said in my full response to you, the majority of T3/T4 is made of classes that can be effective in multiple areas of play. Being good at skills is part of that, because in that range skill checks haven't been completely obviated by spells or powers. But it isn't the only thing and literally no one has made the claim that it would be enough on its own.

Another way: My initial objection was to your assertion that Diplomacy and UMD were somehow the only skills that mattered. This simply isn't true in the Tiers Incarnate has been placed in. That does not mean skill access is the sole factor determining its placement, simply that its ability to be good at skills should not be discounted simply because they aren't super-cheesy.

[eggynack]

Access to healing spells carries with it an obligation. An obligation that reduces their other options. It's a spell tax on either spells prepared or spells known.

Why? What about healing spells dictates that they must be used? What renders them especially obligatory?

I think at low levels the Bard's spells, skills and class features is more powerful than the Favored Soul's spells, skills and class features. At mid levels they're about the same. At high level the Favored Soul pulls ahead. Since I'm valuing mid levels over low levels and low levels over high levels, then I rank the Bard over the Favored Soul. The Bard's alright.

What level are we talking about here? Consider something like, I dunno, level nine. Solid arbitrary mid-level. Bards get three third level bard spells known at this point. Favored souls get three fourth level spells and four third level spells. Meanwhile, in terms of castings per day, the favored soul is getting four fourths and six thirds, while the bard is getting only two thirds. Do you honestly think the bard spell list is so great that it can even remotely make up this ludicrous gap? Favored souls are getting more fourths and more times a day than bards are getting thirds.

Even just in core, which is the context that most benefits the bard, you're running something like glibness, dispel magic, and haste against, say, SM IV, lesser planar ally, freedom of movement, animate dead, dispel magic, stone shape, and magic circle. How is this remotely comparable? And, again, the cleric is getting several times more of these spells daily. SM IV is real strong too. Look at all of those mephits. Skills and inspire courage aren't going to bridge this gap. Not even close.

So, what of that claimed early level advantage? Well, it obviously doesn't exist at first level. Bard doesn't even really have spells at that point. At second it looks closer. The bard has two spells known and likely a single casting per day. The spell itself is strong, silent image and charm person being excellent options at this point, but the favored soul is casting like five spells/day, and has three spells known to do it with. Even if the spells in question are worse, the sheer volume is a lot for the bard to contend with. The bard is pulling a single really good combat while the favored soul can have something like obscuring mist, protection from X, and, I dunno, SM I five times a day.

All in all, I'm just not sure when you think bards have this advantage or how it functions. Bard is a fine class, but the favored soul is pulling in a lot more spells a lot more times/day off of a strong list, and they start pulling ahead in terms of spell level later on. And, again, this is a core only list pulled together pretty haphazardly. If you start using other books then the cleric list is just gonna destroy the bard list most of the time, even without considering the sheer mass of spells the favored soul can use.

There's a smaller stretch of levels in which the Bard is more powerful than the Archivist and a larger stretch of levels in which the Archivist is more powerful than the Bard. The Archivist could be somewhere between the Cleric and the Bard in power. How should I best express that in a tier list?

The problem isn't how you express this information but the information you're expressing. If there exist levels where the bard is advantaged, they are ludicrously few in number, probably only existing at those real early levels where basic stats are pertinent. There is never a casting advantage, not even close.

CoDzilla isn't proof of the Cleric's power. What is? It can't be the Cleric Archer, that's just CoDzilla at ranged. Is it undead minionmancy? That's something. The spells with the Death or Evil tag are pretty killer. Should Bad Guy Clerics be put on a separate tier from Good Guy Clerics?

I don't see how Cleric spells are as powerful as Wizard spells, or how Cleric spells and class features are as powerful as Druid spells and class features.

There's just not that much a cleric can't do. Minions, buffs, debuffs, BFC, game breaking nonsense, healing, divination, direct combat, even blasting if you really want to, it's all just right there on the list. What's missing here, really?

If the Cleric is equal to the Wizard power-wise, and that's a big if, then it's only true at low levels. And mid levels matter more than low levels. If the Cleric is equal to or even surpasses the Druid in power, then it's only true at high levels, and mid levels and low levels matter more than high levels.

Clerics are about equal to druids at mid-level though. As I said, the break point is around level ten. And it's not like the druid is crushing the cleric at level nine or something. If anything, clerics are the real mid-range class, which makes your stipulation that mid level is what really matters kinda weird. The druid has the early game advantage, the wizard has the late game, and the cleric is probably at its best in between, usually falling between the other two classes no matter where they are. And, honestly, this is mostly hair splitting because all three classes are excellent, capable of doing just about anything.

[Troacctid]

Incarnate only has the skills that you need, and when you don't need those skills, you can switch them out for something you do need. Effectively, it gets those skills (comparable to a mid-level character with max ranks) for free, just by being an incarnate. If you need Diplomacy or UMD or UPD or Search or Swim or Open Lock etc, you have them. If you don't need them, you have some other nice thing instead. One of the perks of being a single-class incarnate is being able to change soulmelds quickly as needed.

Their attacks being touch attacks improves their effective DPR too. If it's the same damage as a sneak attack, but when you factor in that its unconditional and against touch AC, it's actually more damage than a sneak attack. Incarnates aren't as good with skills as rogues are, but they have comparable damage output on average (assuming mid-op builds) and are significantly sturdier, with the ability to actually survive on the front line. They can also fly and teleport and animate dead and all that.

Most barbarians are not uberchargers. Fighters even less so, since they don't have any native access to pounce. These tiers are meant to represent our best guess at a weighted average of power across many optimization levels. A dedicated charger build might outperform an incarnate in combat, but a tank incarnate probably blows a sword-and-shield fighter out of the water, and a ranged incarnate will hold its own next to an archery ranger while still having enough soulmeld slots left to double as a bard.

As for healing spells—they're good spells! Being able to take all-stars like close wounds and lesser restoration and heal and even the humble cure moderate wounds...that's a legit upside. You should be taking healing spells because they are good spells. It's like how a bard doesn't have to take haste or dimension door or glibness, but, like, why wouldn't you want to take them?

[MeimuHakurei]

snip mentioning healing spells and comparing bard with favored soul

It's worth noting that the bard would be just as constrained by BlackLamb's own logic - they also get healing spells after all.

[NigelWalmsley]

The incarnate can be capable in combat

People say this, but it doesn't really seem all that impressive. Lans gives an example where you sink all your essentia and most of your soulmelds into melee combat (also, you have to be an Evil Incarnate, meaning you can't be the Good Incarnate which was previously suggested as a solution to the class's AC problems), and that gets you something that does about as much damage as one attack from a Ninja's sudden strike. It's more reliable, sure, but surely the fact that the Ninja could be making three or four attacks, and that the same dice apply to melee or ranged counts for something.

or it can operate effectively on a wider range of skills than an expert

Doesn't that depend on what you mean by "effectively"? Lans quotes a figure of +2 or +4 base +2/essentia for skill soulmelds. You get 3 points of essentia per soulmeld (or 4 for a couple, but that means reducing your already mediocre offense further, which is only viable in certain situations). That means a bonus between +8 and +12 at 10th level. Whereas the Expert gets +13 to all their class skills. The Incarnate can get bonuses to a fairly wide variety of skills that are pretty big. But past low levels (where the Incarnate does seem quite strong), they don't scale well, and their selection is fairly limited at any given point.

If you gave fighter an expert gestalt it would go up from bottom to top tier 4. And if you gave fighter a bunch of situational immunities and tricks like flight and resistances it would probably be tier 3. And look a lot like an incarnate.

This sounds a good deal like the Ranger, who gets as many skills as the Expert, a variety of spells and other class features, and is only marginally higher than the Fighter. So should the Ranger also be T3?

Another way: My initial objection was to your assertion that Diplomacy and UMD were somehow the only skills that mattered. This simply isn't true in the Tiers Incarnate has been placed in. That does not mean skill access is the sole factor determining its placement, simply that its ability to be good at skills should not be discounted simply because they aren't super-cheesy.

I'm not discounting it. But "good at skills" doesn't seem to be worth very much, based on the placement of other classes that are good at skills. A real skill-monkey, like a Rogue, or a Scout, or a Ninja, is T4 or lower. The Incarnate is different from those classes, but I do not think it is clearly better. If they belong in the T4/T5 range, so does it. If it belongs higher, so do they.

If you need Diplomacy or UMD or UPD or Search or Swim or Open Lock etc, you have them.

I don't think you actually do get Swim. It looks to me like the +Swim soulmeld is the Kraken Mantle, which is the province of the Totemist, not the Incarnate. You get some skills. But you don't get all the skills, and you don't get them all the time, which is a real cost. The Incarnate is a dabbler, and the game is not set up to reward dabblers.

One of the perks of being a single-class incarnate is being able to change soulmelds quickly as needed.

You get three uses of Rapid Meldshaping ever, and the last of those is at 17th level. For most of the game, you can change one soulmeld, but there is more than one soulmeld's worth of difference between what you need to fill various roles. At the point where you can change more, your class no longer scales properly.

Incarnates aren't as good with skills as rogues are, but they have comparable damage output on average (assuming mid-op builds) and are significantly sturdier

I don't believe you. The person who ran the numbers came up with an Incarnate who needs to stick all their essentia into damage to be competitive with a Rogue who hasn't figured out that TWF or Rapid Shot exists.

They can also fly and teleport and animate dead and all that.

I don't believe you. The soulmeld you're describing as "animate dead" gets you one zombie. That's not "animate dead", that's the necromancer ACF that gets you a pet skeleton. So please, explain what abilities you are using here, and why I should believe the claims you are making.

[Lans]

We're still talking about something that does as much damage as a single sneak attack (maybe slightly more, but remember the Rogue is getting base weapon damage), at a level when a TWF Rogue could get four.

Yes, but the rogue is attacking the normal AC instead of the touch AC, and needs to be able to get the sneak attack off. So the target needs to be caught flat footed or flanked, . I personally think its closer to the warlock than the rogue.

And look at all you're investing in that. It's getting all your essentia, and it requires you to sink in feats.This is a far cry from the easy versatility attributed to the Incarnate.

The incarnate can swap into other roles when applicable, or grab niche abilities like flight and water walking and those feats will help with filling those roles. It can even swap 1 out on the fly.

What scout and social skills does it get? I was under the impression there aren't soulmelds for every skill.

I believe it gets all the social skills, search, spot, listen, disable device, open locks, but has to spend a feat to cover move silently and hide.


EDITS due to leaving the post up for hours before hitting send

I don't think you actually do get Swim. It looks to me like the +Swim soulmeld is the Kraken Mantle, which is the province of the Totemist, not the Incarnate. You get some skills. But you don't get all the skills, and you don't get them all the time, which is a real cost. The Incarnate is a dabbler, and the game is not set up to reward dabblers.

There is sailors bracers that gives swim, sailor, and use rope

I'm not discounting it. But "good at skills" doesn't seem to be worth very much, based on the placement of other classes that are good at skills. A real skill-monkey, like a Rogue, or a Scout, or a Ninja, is T4 or lower. The Incarnate is different from those classes, but I do not think it is clearly better. If they belong in the T4/T5 range, so does it. If it belongs higher, so do they.

Some people argue that rogues should be tier 3, and I am on the fence of whether the incarnate is T3 or 4. If they are T3 its barely and off the back of being amazing at low levels and tapering off from there.

Doesn't that depend on what you mean by "effectively"? Lans quotes a figure of +2 or +4 base +2/essentia for skill soulmelds. You get 3 points of essentia per soulmeld (or 4 for a couple, but that means reducing your already mediocre offense further, which is only viable in certain situations). That means a bonus between +8 and +12 at 10th level. Whereas the Expert gets +13 to all their class skills. The Incarnate can get bonuses to a fairly wide variety of skills that are pretty big. But past low levels (where the Incarnate does seem quite strong), they don't scale well, and their selection is fairly limited at any given point.

Part of this may depend on how you think the game breaks down, if you you think 1-6 is low, 7-13 is mid and 14-20 is high the Incarnate doesn't appear as good if you think the game breaks down 1-5 as low, 6-11 as mid, 12-16 as high and 17+ as very high.

With that said, lucky dice gives a +1 bonus to all skills so its 9-13, and you can shore up its weaknesses with its skill points which narrows its flexibility in the hypothetical build sense but its useful to compare against a hypothetical expert. The other thing is that it gets to the 9-13 modifier at level 6.

[NigelWalmsley]

Yes, but the rogue is attacking the normal AC instead of the touch AC, and needs to be able to get the sneak attack off. So the target needs to be caught flat footed or flanked, . I personally think its closer to the warlock than the rogue.

I don't think that's the right comparison. The Warlock gets Eldritch Blast, but it also gets a bunch of other offensive abilities, like Black Tentacles, Wall of Fire, and Charm Monster. What does the Incarnate get that's comparable to those?

The incarnate can swap into other roles when applicable, or grab niche abilities like flight and water walking and those feats will help with filling those roles. It can even swap 1 out on the fly.

What does it get for flight? Because the thing being described as "animate dead" is "one zombie", so I'm suspicious that "flight" is going to end up meaning "a really big jump bonus" or something.

I believe it gets all the social skills, search, spot, listen, disable device, open locks, but has to spend a feat to cover move silently and hide.

Does it have a way to get Trapfinding? How many slots does it need to dedicate to getting those bonuses?

There is sailors bracers that gives swim, sailor, and use rope

Ah. Thank you for clarifying.

[Troacctid]

I'm not discounting it. But "good at skills" doesn't seem to be worth very much, based on the placement of other classes that are good at skills. A real skill-monkey, like a Rogue, or a Scout, or a Ninja, is T4 or lower. The Incarnate is different from those classes, but I do not think it is clearly better. If they belong in the T4/T5 range, so does it. If it belongs higher, so do they.

Well, BlackLamb put it in T5, which is clearly wrong.

I don't think you actually do get Swim. It looks to me like the +Swim soulmeld is the Kraken Mantle, which is the province of the Totemist, not the Incarnate. You get some skills. But you don't get all the skills, and you don't get them all the time, which is a real cost. The Incarnate is a dabbler, and the game is not set up to reward dabblers.

Sailor's bracers give Swim. I typically prefer to walk on the water with cerulean sandals, though.

You get three uses of Rapid Meldshaping ever, and the last of those is at 17th level. For most of the game, you can change one soulmeld, but there is more than one soulmeld's worth of difference between what you need to fill various roles. At the point where you can change more, your class no longer scales properly.

You don't usually need more than one, sometimes two, since you can also just change your soulmelds in the morning.

I don't believe you. The person who ran the numbers came up with an Incarnate who needs to stick all their essentia into damage to be competitive with a Rogue who hasn't figured out that TWF or Rapid Shot exists.

If sneak attack were "Just add this damage to every attack, no strings attached," then the rogue would be rated higher, believe me. Unfortunately for our sneak-attacking friends, many enemies are immune to sneak attack, and there is a significant setup cost required. Every rogue is going to run into some number of combats where their signature ability simply doesn't work and they're reduced to plinking the enemy for 1d6+3 damage or something janky like that.

Evil incarnates, by the way, are not too bad at TWF either.

I don't believe you. The soulmeld you're describing as "animate dead" gets you one zombie. That's not "animate dead", that's the necromancer ACF that gets you a pet skeleton. So please, explain what abilities you are using here, and why I should believe the claims you are making.

Airstep sandals = limited flight at low levels
Astral vambraces = proper flight at high levels
Cerulean sandals = teleportation
Necrocarnum circlet = basically animate dead at half CL, but no material component

I don't think that's the right comparison. The Warlock gets Eldritch Blast, but it also gets a bunch of other offensive abilities, like Black Tentacles, Wall of Fire, and Charm Monster. What does the Incarnate get that's comparable to those?

At-will suggestion is probably the biggest one.

Does it have a way to get Trapfinding?

Of course it does.

How many slots does it need to dedicate to getting those bonuses?

From Incarnate By The Numbers:

Level	Max Possible Ranks	Meld Bonus	Ranks Needed	Incarnate SP	Meld Virtual SP	Rogue SP	Melds Needed	With Able Learner
1	4	4	0	8	12	32	2.33	2.00
2	5	4	1	10	12	40	2.92	2.50
3	6	6	0	12	18	48	2.33	2.00
4	7	6	1	14	18	56	2.72	2.33
5	8	6	2	16	18	64	3.11	2.67
6	9	8	1	18	24	72	2.63	2.25
7	10	8	2	20	24	80	2.92	2.50
8	11	8	3	22	24	88	3.21	2.75
9	12	8	4	24	24	96	3.50	3.00
10	13	8	5	26	24	104	3.79	3.25
11	14	8	6	28	24	112	4.08	3.50
12	15	10	5	30	30	120	3.50	3.00
13	16	10	6	32	30	128	3.73	3.20
14	17	10	7	34	30	136	3.97	3.40
15	18	12	6	36	36	144	3.50	3.00
16	19	12	7	38	36	152	3.69	3.17
17	20	12	8	40	36	160	3.89	3.33
18	21	14	7	42	42	168	3.50	3.00
19	22	14	8	44	42	176	3.67	3.14
20	23	14	9	46	42	184	3.83	3.29

[BlackLamb]

What level are we talking about here? Consider something like, I dunno, level nine. Solid arbitrary mid-level. Bards get three third level bard spells known at this point. Favored souls get three fourth level spells and four third level spells. Meanwhile, in terms of castings per day, the favored soul is getting four fourths and six thirds, while the bard is getting only two thirds. Do you honestly think the bard spell list is so great that it can even remotely make up this ludicrous gap? Favored souls are getting more fourths and more times a day than bards are getting thirds.

Even just in core, which is the context that most benefits the bard, you're running something like glibness, dispel magic, and haste against, say, SM IV, lesser planar ally, freedom of movement, animate dead, dispel magic, stone shape, and magic circle. How is this remotely comparable? And, again, the cleric is getting several times more of these spells daily. SM IV is real strong too. Look at all of those mephits. Skills and inspire courage aren't going to bridge this gap. Not even close.

So, what of that claimed early level advantage? Well, it obviously doesn't exist at first level. Bard doesn't even really have spells at that point. At second it looks closer. The bard has two spells known and likely a single casting per day. The spell itself is strong, silent image and charm person being excellent options at this point, but the favored soul is casting like five spells/day, and has three spells known to do it with. Even if the spells in question are worse, the sheer volume is a lot for the bard to contend with. The bard is pulling a single really good combat while the favored soul can have something like obscuring mist, protection from X, and, I dunno, SM I five times a day.

All in all, I'm just not sure when you think bards have this advantage or how it functions. Bard is a fine class, but the favored soul is pulling in a lot more spells a lot more times/day off of a strong list, and they start pulling ahead in terms of spell level later on. And, again, this is a core only list pulled together pretty haphazardly. If you start using other books then the cleric list is just gonna destroy the bard list most of the time, even without considering the sheer mass of spells the favored soul can use.

Of course the Cleric spell list is more powerful than the Bard spell list. If I thought the spell lists were equivalent I'd put the Bard in Tier 2. The Shugenja spell list is more powerful than the Bard spell list and the community has placed the classes at the same power level over all.

The Bard beats the Favored Soul in power because of the whole package. The Bard's skills matter a lot at low level, become less relevant at mid levels and don't matter at high levels. The Bard's class features are solid at all levels. The Favored Soul only pulls ahead of the Bard significantly in power at level 14, and that's based only the power of spells. If spells were the only thing that mattered, then Bards also have UMD which gives them access to all spells in the game.

Clerics are about equal to druids at mid-level though. As I said, the break point is around level ten. And it's not like the druid is crushing the cleric at level nine or something. If anything, clerics are the real mid-range class, which makes your stipulation that mid level is what really matters kinda weird. The druid has the early game advantage, the wizard has the late game, and the cleric is probably at its best in between, usually falling between the other two classes no matter where they are. And, honestly, this is mostly hair splitting because all three classes are excellent, capable of doing just about anything.

I disagree that Clerics are equal in power to Druids at mid level. I do agree that all three are excellent classes. Tier 1 and Tier 2 is hairsplitting.

As for healing spells—they're good spells! Being able to take all-stars like close wounds and lesser restoration and heal and even the humble cure moderate wounds...that's a legit upside. You should be taking healing spells because they are good spells. It's like how a bard doesn't have to take haste or dimension door or glibness, but, like, why wouldn't you want to take them?

Heal is a powerful spell, no question.

I'm not talking about good spells versus bad spells. I'm talking about power on a scale of 1 to 6. It's not controversial to say blasting spells are on the lower end of the power scale and I think that healing spells are less powerful than blasting spells.

Fireball gets a lot of crap for not being the most powerful spell in the game. It has long range and affects multiple targets. It's fine. Just because it's not the most powerful spell doesn't mean that it's the least powerful spell. Just because I wouldn't rank it at 1 in power doesn't mean I'd rank it at 6, and just because I wouldn't rank it at 6 doesn't mean I'd rank it at tier 1.

[eggynack]

Of course the Cleric spell list is more powerful than the Bard spell list. If I thought the spell lists were equivalent I'd put the Bard in Tier 2. The Shugenja spell list is more powerful than the Bard spell list and the community has placed the classes at the same power level over all.

The Bard beats the Favored Soul in power because of the whole package. The Bard's skills matter a lot at low level, become less relevant at mid levels and don't matter at high levels. The Bard's class features are solid at all levels. The Favored Soul only pulls ahead of the Bard significantly in power at level 14, and that's based only the power of spells. If spells were the only thing that mattered, then Bards also have UMD which gives them access to all spells in the game.

If you agree that the cleric list is better then this position is genuinely baffling. Skills are okay but they are nowhere near as important as spells.The favored soul is casting more and higher level spells off of a better list for the entire game. That is gonna constitute a serious advantage way before level 14. Favored souls have enough spells that they can use those spells as a reliable source for power, and the spells are strong enough that doing that is really good.

I disagree that Clerics are equal in power to Druids at mid level. I do agree that all three are excellent classes. Tier 1 and Tier 2 is hairsplitting.

Where do you think this advantage comes from?

[AnimeTheCat]

Doesn't that depend on what you mean by "effectively"? Lans quotes a figure of +2 or +4 base +2/essentia for skill soulmelds. You get 3 points of essentia per soulmeld (or 4 for a couple, but that means reducing your already mediocre offense further, which is only viable in certain situations). That means a bonus between +8 and +12 at 10th level. Whereas the Expert gets +13 to all their class skills. The Incarnate can get bonuses to a fairly wide variety of skills that are pretty big. But past low levels (where the Incarnate does seem quite strong), they don't scale well, and their selection is fairly limited at any given point.

I'll just leave this one part because I think that it's sufficient to point out something potentially flawed in your thought process about essentia. Each round, you can take a free action to reallocate your essentia amung your soulmeds. So, while you need all of your essentia to go to your combat abilities during combat, you don't need to keep it there out of combat. This lets you shape a handful of soulmelds specifically for combat, in my experience 1 or 2 is sufficient, and the rest for utility. Often times, the soulmelds you will need aren't guesswork. Usually you're filling a certain role in the party, and you can predictably pick the soulmelds you'll need, thus you take the guesswork out of picking which skills you'll be good at.

[NigelWalmsley]

Well, BlackLamb put it in T5, which is clearly wrong.

It's a low T4. T5 is not unthinkable. Also, his rankings seem to be about a tier down on average, so relative to the rest of the classes he has it in the right place.

If sneak attack were "Just add this damage to every attack, no strings attached," then the rogue would be rated higher, believe me. Unfortunately for our sneak-attacking friends, many enemies are immune to sneak attack, and there is a significant setup cost required. Every rogue is going to run into some number of combats where their signature ability simply doesn't work and they're reduced to plinking the enemy for 1d6+3 damage or something janky like that.

So are Incarnates. There are creatures that are immune to energy damage. And immunity to energy damage is a lot easier for a random enemy to acquire than immunity to Sneak Attack. Rogues also have access to UMD for the Gravestrike line of spells which substantially mitigates this.

Astral vambraces = proper flight at high levels

The page this was on appears to be dead. I don't find it a very compelling argument about the power of the Incarnate as a result.

Necrocarnum circlet = basically animate dead at half CL, but no material component

Quarter-CL, actually. HD=Meldshaper level and you only get one. Moreover, in practice you'll sometimes be even more limited, because you won't always have a HD=level corpse to hand.

At-will suggestion is probably the biggest one.

You get that at 14th level. Suggestion is a 3rd level spell. I find myself less than impressed.

Of course it does.

And that would be?

I'll just leave this one part because I think that it's sufficient to point out something potentially flawed in your thought process about essentia. Each round, you can take a free action to reallocate your essentia amung your soulmeds. So, while you need all of your essentia to go to your combat abilities during combat, you don't need to keep it there out of combat.

Yes, you can reallocate your essentia. But you can't reallocate your Expanded Soulmeld Capacity. This means your cap for either your combat melds or your utility melds will get the bonus, but not both, which limits your effectiveness (moreso in scouting, as you're less likely to need combat + social).

[Troacctid]

It's a low T4. T5 is not unthinkable. Also, his rankings seem to be about a tier down on average, so relative to the rest of the classes he has it in the right place.

No, it's high T4 bordering T3, or low T3 bordering T4, depending on whether you think its soulmelds are as good as the totemist's or not. (I'd argue they're better than the totemist's.)

So are Incarnates. There are creatures that are immune to energy damage. And immunity to energy damage is a lot easier for a random enemy to acquire than immunity to Sneak Attack. Rogues also have access to UMD for the Gravestrike line of spells which substantially mitigates this.

Honestly, you'd think so? But it turns out that statistically, sneak immunity is really common. Significantly more common than electricity or acid resistance (which are the two rarest types). Factor in that you won't always be in position to make sneak attacks even against enemies who aren't immune, and you're missing more often...

You can get magic items to help with this, but the incarnate doesn't have to, and can spend that money on other things.

The page this was on appears to be dead.

It isn't.

You get that at 14th level. Suggestion is a 3rd level spell. I find myself less than impressed.

That's around when warlocks get it. 🤷

Flight, telepathy, mind-reading, and stunning attacks come online at level 9. Limited etherealness is available at that level as well with a feat. All at will.

And that would be?

I feel like your opinions about this class might be disproportionately strong, given how little you seem to know about it. "What soulmelds are on its list" is pretty basic stuff.

[NigelWalmsley]

Honestly, you'd think so? But it turns out that statistically, sneak immunity is really common. Significantly more common than electricity or acid resistance (which are the two rarest types). Factor in that you won't always be in position to make sneak attacks even against enemies who aren't immune, and you're missing more often...

No Rogue worth their salt gets one attack past very low levels (where the Incarnate is quite strong), so iterative probability works heavily in their favor here. Plus, while native energy immunity is rare, it's much easier to acquire than sneak attack immunity is.

You can get magic items to help with this, but the incarnate doesn't have to, and can spend that money on other things.

Being able to buy items that bypass one of your class's primary weaknesses is an advantage, not a disadvantage.

It isn't.

You could, perhaps, link the page? Because when I google "Astral Vambraces", the first result is a dead link. I understand you find these things obvious, but your tendency to simply assert things without bothering to explain them is less persuasive then you seem to think.

That's around when warlocks get it. 🤷

Warlocks get Charm at 6th level. It's not quite the Charm Monster it's based on, but it's close, and better than Suggestion. And they get actual Animate Dead.

Flight, telepathy, mind-reading, and stunning attacks come online at level 9. Limited etherealness is available at that level as well with a feat. All at will.

I no longer find your claims persuasive without citations. Suggestion at 14th level is not meaningful. What you describe as "Animate Dead" is a pale imitation. I am not going to do the work of assembling evidence for your position just so I can tear it down. Provide it yourself.

"What soulmelds are on its list" is pretty basic stuff.

Then it should be easy for you to explain what things you are talking about. I'm quite willing to learn. But it seems to me that when I investigate your claims, they rarely hold up as well as you imply. I'm not asking for a lot. Lans wrote a paragraph with some pretty minimal math that I found entirely satisfying as an explanation of the Incarnate's melee DPS. If all you have to back up your position are bald assertions, I don't think your position is very strong.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I no longer find your claims persuasive without citations. Suggestion at 14th level is not meaningful. What you describe as "Animate Dead" is a pale imitation. I am not going to do the work of assembling evidence for your position just so I can tear it down. Provide it yourself.

To be fair you don't even understand the basics of meldshaping, have clearly never used or seen one used. This debate is turning into you explaining why arrows cannot fly.

[Troacctid]

I went over Incarnate 101 in the OP, so you can start there for the basics. If you don't feel you understand the class, you should try reading up on some of the soulmelds, maybe take a look at the "Incarnate by the Numbers" thread that I linked a couple posts ago. Or, if you don't want to do that, you could simply not vote.

[BlackLamb]

If you agree that the cleric list is better then this position is genuinely baffling. Skills are okay but they are nowhere near as important as spells.The favored soul is casting more and higher level spells off of a better list for the entire game. That is gonna constitute a serious advantage way before level 14. Favored souls have enough spells that they can use those spells as a reliable source for power, and the spells are strong enough that doing that is really good.

If spellcasting is so dominant at all levels of play, then why did you vote for the Bard in Tier 3 in the ranking the Bard thread and Shugenja in Tier 3 in the ranking the Shugenja thread?

Shugenja spellcasting is clearly more powerful than Bard spellcasting. If the logic is that Shugenja spellcasting is better than all other Tier 3s but not quite good enough to be Tier 2, then that's the same as my logic for putting the Cleric in Tier 2.

Where do you think this advantage comes from?

I think the Druid has more powerful spells and class features at mid levels than the Cleric. Do you want a list of powerful Druid spells?

This is a game that hasn't been supported in over 10 years and we've both been playing it longer than that. I'm pretty sure we're both aware of what classes can do. How we weigh those capabilities against each other is the only point of contention. And since we've both been playing this game for so long and don't know each other well enough to place value of each other's opinions over our own experiences, what do you think is a satisfactory endpoint of this conversation?

[eggynack]

If spellcasting is so dominant at all levels of play, then why did you vote for the Bard in Tier 3 in the ranking the Bard thread and Shugenja in Tier 3 in the ranking the Shugenja thread?

Shugenja spellcasting is clearly more powerful than Bard spellcasting. If the logic is that Shugenja spellcasting is better than all other Tier 3s but not quite good enough to be Tier 2, then that's the same as my logic for putting the Cleric in Tier 2.

I actually ranked the shugenja a 2.5, apparently. Somewhat better than a bard, but not as good as a favored soul. Shugenja casting is kinda limited, and bard casting is surprisingly good for its slowness, but I do think the shugenja is somewhat advantaged in this comparison. I certainly don't think the shugenja should be ranked below the bard, and the favored soul is pretty blatantly better than the shugenja. Hence the ratings I provided and, by extension, the ratings people tend towards. The bard's other stuff isn't a total non-factor, incidentally. It's nice that the class has skills and decent combat ability. It's just not gonna measure up with being a way better caster.

I think the Druid has more powerful spells and class features at mid levels than the Cleric. Do you want a list of powerful Druid spells?

I pretty obviously don't want a list of powerful druid spells. More pertinent here, I think, is what it is you think that clerics can't do, especially at mid-level play. The question is one of comparison, ultimately.

Edit: Wait, you have shugenja ranked at tier three. Do you really think the shugenja list is better than the favored soul list? It's not like the class gets other stuff that's especially cool.

[Lans]

It's a low T4. T5 is not unthinkable. Also, his rankings seem to be about a tier down on average, so relative to the rest of the classes he has it in the right place.

I have trouble seeing it lower than mid T4, but I also think rogue is high T4, low T3 .

So are Incarnates. There are creatures that are immune to energy damage. And immunity to energy damage is a lot easier for a random enemy to acquire than immunity to Sneak Attack. Rogues also have access to UMD for the Gravestrike line of spells which substantially mitigates this.

I think a bigger problem with rogues sneak attack is having to set up flat footedness, flanking and being shut down by concealment. A mid level cleric can shut down a rogues sneak attack with deeper darkness, and normally I would discount a build being negated by a spell, but it has a duration of DAYS/level.

The other thing is can you go over what you expect your hit bonus to be and how much damage you expect to deal on average with a full attack against an opponent with an average AC? Say level 7 or 9.

The page this was on appears to be dead. I don't find it a very compelling argument about the power of the Incarnate as a result.

Astral Vambraces gives damage reduction 2+2xessentia/magic, when bound to hands it gives 2 slams, when bound to arms lets it take a menu A ability from the astral construct, which includes fly 20'.

Quarter-CL, actually. HD=Meldshaper level and you only get one. Moreover, in practice you'll sometimes be even more limited, because you won't always have a HD=level corpse to hand.

The zombies aren't the same, the Necrocarnum zombie has a 3/4 attack bonus, gains +2 more to strength and dex, can up its speed and initiative or AC and Saves, doesn't lose it's full attack or intelligence, or skills. So it's also speak with dead.

[NigelWalmsley]

To be fair you don't even understand the basics of meldshaping, have clearly never used or seen one used. This debate is turning into you explaining why arrows cannot fly.

That's not what's happening. What's happening is that Troacctid doesn't believe they should explain or justify their claims, and as a result I find their claims unpersuasive. Lans is willing to explain things, and I have found some of their arguments reasonably persuasive. If the Incarnate belongs in T3, you should be able to explain that in a way that does not require me to possess a perfect mapping between soulmelds and their effects.

Shugenja spellcasting is clearly more powerful than Bard spellcasting.

The Shugenja is weird. There's good stuff on there, but it's awkward to get all the stuff you want because of Element Focus. For example, you flat can't get Wall of Stone + Cloudkill, or Wall of Fire + most healing spells. If you just got the whole list and could take whatever stuff you wanted, I think it probably would be T2 (though maybe not, some stuff is awkwardly up-leveled). But as-is, I'm not convinced you can get the spells you want.

Conversely, the Bard gets a fairly aggressive program of down-leveling, and while kind of subpar in Core (outside of Diplomancy shenanigans), has been the beneficiary of a great deal of non-core love.

I have trouble seeing it lower than mid T4, but I also think rogue is high T4, low T3 .

I think that would also be reasonable. I don't think the Incarnate is substantially worse than the other skillmonkeys, but I think the claims that it is substantially better are unreasonable. Based on where other classes are ranked, it should be low T4/high T5, but if you think those classes are misranked, I don't think you would be inconsistent to rank it with them. Personally, I kind of don't care, because I think that for the most part trying to make the distinction between anything between T4 and T5 is probably more trouble than it's worth. If I had been designing the system, I would have just stuck the Incarnate, Rogue, and so on in a B tier between classes like the Warblade (that are good but not caster-tier) and classes like the Truenamer (that are basically NPC classes). But I didn't make the system.

I think a bigger problem with rogues sneak attack is having to set up flat footedness, flanking and being shut down by concealment. A mid level cleric can shut down a rogues sneak attack with deeper darkness, and normally I would discount a build being negated by a spell, but it has a duration of DAYS/level.

That Cleric can also shut down the Incarnate with Protection from Energy (not totally, but for as long as the fight is likely to last). And it's true that the duration there is lower, but it's also not tied to a location. Also, it's vastly more common.

The other thing is can you go over what you expect your hit bonus to be and how much damage you expect to deal on average with a full attack against an opponent with an average AC? Say level 7 or 9.

I think a 7th level Rogue with Rapid Shot and Point Blank Shot (a comparable investment to taking a couple of the +essentia cap feats) to be hitting at least +10 to hit (+5 BAB, +5 Dexterity, +1 PBS, +2 Weapon, -2 Rapid Shot), meaning against a Hill Giant (picked because I think it's a representative bruiser monster, I'm too lazy to look up average AC at CR 7) each attack hits about half the time. Meaning your expected DPS is about on par with the Incarnate (they will basically always hit, but you will sometimes hit twice, and per-hit damage is comparable), with a substantially better scaling with optimization.

Astral Vambraces gives damage reduction 2+2xessentia/magic, when bound to hands it gives 2 slams, when bound to arms lets it take a menu A ability from the astral construct, which includes fly 20'.

Sure, that seems like it would do what is being described. Do you have a live link though (that should be legal, right? it's supposed to be on the WotC website)? Because if we're supposed to be looking at the power level of "expected Incarnates", I think we should be discounting web enhancement content, and near-totally discounting content on dead or archived pages. Because I have very rarely seen a DM who allows web material, and I have never seen one who would be okay with "well if we fire up the wayback machine...".

The zombies aren't the same, the Necrocarnum zombie has a 3/4 attack bonus, gains +2 more to strength and dex, can up its speed and initiative or AC and Saves, doesn't lose it's full attack or intelligence, or skills. So it's also speak with dead.

It keeps its intelligence, but I don't think that necessarily implies it keeps its memories (though maybe there's text I'm overlooking). It does get some physical bumps over regular zombies, but that's highly dependent on you finding quality corpses. If you're stuck reanimating something a couple of HD down (which will happen, just as Rogues not getting Sneak Attack will happen), the bonuses are not as impressive relative to getting multiple zombies. Again, it's quite good at low levels, but it falls off hard by mid levels, and is basically a joke at high levels (though in fairness, Animate Dead is hardly great there either).

Overall, it seems like the Incarnate is heavily frontloaded. I think you could make an argument for it being one of the better classes in the game at, say, 3rd level. But I think once you get up to 6th or 7th level it's mediocre, and at 10th level it's struggling.

[Lans]

I think that would also be reasonable. I don't think the Incarnate is substantially worse than the other skillmonkeys, but I think the claims that it is substantially better are unreasonable. Based on where other classes are ranked, it should be low T4/high T5, but if you think those classes are misranked, I don't think you would be inconsistent to rank it with them. Personally, I kind of don't care, because I think that for the most part trying to make the distinction between anything between T4 and T5 is probably more trouble than it's worth. If I had been designing the system, I would have just stuck the Incarnate, Rogue, and so on in a B tier between classes like the Warblade (that are good but not caster-tier) and classes like the Truenamer (that are basically NPC classes). But I didn't make the system.

I think part of the problem is people looking at what the class can do, with what a particular build or selection can do. The Incarnate has a wide selection of choices, and can tank with astral vambraces, flame mantle, the EssentiaXmeldshaper one, or it can do skills, or do what I consider passable damage but it has trouble doing more than 1 thing at a passable range.

That Cleric can also shut down the Incarnate with Protection from Energy (not totally, but for as long as the fight is likely to last). And it's true that the duration there is lower, but it's also not tied to a location. Also, it's vastly more common.

True, but I wouldn't expect a cleric to have that spell until level 9th at the earliest, at which point the cleric could of been supplying like the last 3 levels worth of enemies darkness rocks.

I think a 7th level Rogue with Rapid Shot and Point Blank Shot (a comparable investment to taking a couple of the +essentia cap feats) to be hitting at least +10 to hit (+5 BAB, +5 Dexterity, +1 PBS, +2 Weapon, -2 Rapid Shot), meaning against a Hill Giant (picked because I think it's a representative bruiser monster, I'm too lazy to look up average AC at CR 7) each attack hits about half the time. Meaning your expected DPS is about on par with the Incarnate (they will basically always hit, but you will sometimes hit twice, and per-hit damage is comparable), with a substantially better scaling with optimization.

I need to help my wife with dinner so I will need to stick a pin in this for later

Sure, that seems like it would do what is being described. Do you have a live link though (that should be legal, right? it's supposed to be on the WotC website)? Because if we're supposed to be looking at the power level of "expected Incarnates", I think we should be discounting web enhancement content, and near-totally discounting content on dead or archived pages. Because I have very rarely seen a DM who allows web material, and I have never seen one who would be okay with "well if we fire up the wayback machine...".

The links dead as far as I know, but I think its the only thing of value from there.

It keeps its intelligence, but I don't think that necessarily implies it keeps its memories (though maybe there's text I'm overlooking). It does get some physical bumps over regular zombies, but that's highly dependent on you finding quality corpses. If you're stuck reanimating something a couple of HD down (which will happen, just as Rogues not getting Sneak Attack will happen), the bonuses are not as impressive relative to getting multiple zombies. Again, it's quite good at low levels, but it falls off hard by mid levels, and is basically a joke at high levels (though in fairness, Animate Dead is hardly great there either).

The big thing is that the Incarnate can get it at level 2 and that its zombies can use full attacks. I don't think its as good as the animate dead spell, but if you have 1 bear doing claw/claw/bite its pretty close to 4 bears that just claw, and have problems getting into position.

Overall, it seems like the Incarnate is heavily frontloaded. I think you could make an argument for it being one of the better classes in the game at, say, 3rd level. But I think once you get up to 6th or 7th level it's mediocre, and at 10th level it's struggling.

I think that is largely true, with the levels being of by maybe 1 or 2 It's tier placement likely depends on how heavily you weigh the lower levels in relation to mid levels, and how much you value its 'versatility'

[Troacctid]

That's not what's happening. What's happening is that Troacctid doesn't believe they should explain or justify their claims, and as a result I find their claims unpersuasive. Lans is willing to explain things, and I have found some of their arguments reasonably persuasive. If the Incarnate belongs in T3, you should be able to explain that in a way that does not require me to possess a perfect mapping between soulmelds and their effects.

Do you really want me to go soulmeld-by-soulmeld and explain what every single one of them does? Because I'm already kinda up to my neck in warmage handbook stuff, and throwing an incarnate handbook on top of that seems like a lot of work, especially when I already wrote up all that existing incarnate stuff here.

I think a 7th level Rogue with Rapid Shot and Point Blank Shot (a comparable investment to taking a couple of the +essentia cap feats) to be hitting at least +10 to hit (+5 BAB, +5 Dexterity, +1 PBS, +2 Weapon, -2 Rapid Shot), meaning against a Hill Giant (picked because I think it's a representative bruiser monster, I'm too lazy to look up average AC at CR 7) each attack hits about half the time. Meaning your expected DPS is about on par with the Incarnate (they will basically always hit, but you will sometimes hit twice, and per-hit damage is comparable), with a substantially better scaling with optimization.

Average AC of all SRD monsters at CR 7 is 18, touch AC is 10.

The links dead as far as I know, but I think its the only thing of value from there.

No, it's still up, and there's plenty of good stuff there. http://archive.wizards.com/default.a.../psm/20060217a

I think that is largely true, with the levels being of by maybe 1 or 2 It's tier placement likely depends on how heavily you weigh the lower levels in relation to mid levels, and how much you value its 'versatility'

I think its tier placement depends on where you placed totemist, since they're very similar in power level.