Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

[Gnaeus]

It doesn’t have to be for everyone. It isn’t the solution to tier imbalance. It is a solution to tier imbalance. Dont like it? Don’t do it. My group has had a lot of fun playing with gestalts and partial gestalts.

As for character theme, as always, it is what you make it. If you are trying to boost low tier classes to high tier levels you tend to get these batman type skill tanks that are great in combat with some other stuff. But if you want a T3 scout, Scout//swashbuckler plays like a scout that can actually hit things. Wildshape ranger//monk//divine mind is still a bear, just a bear which can present itself as a credible tank in a group with a wizard, cleric and Druid. The high tier class tends to win the theme struggle, but of course the player is still choosing what to emphasize with his feats, stats and wealth.

For your example, change Paladin//rogue slightly to Paladin//feat rogue. That’s just a Paladin with more feats, better skills and saves. You can play that exactly like a Paladin, but have points for social skills and know nobility and religion and ride. It is potentially more paladinish than Paladin. You could use all your general feats on mount stuff or turning stuff or devotion stuff because you have martial feats to cover necessities like power attack.

[Lans]

Depending on balance point you can increase the ability scores to make up some of the differences. A fighter,monk, or paladin with all 18s is going to be in the same ball park as the corresponding ToB class with a lesser PB

[Luccan]

Depending on balance point you can increase the ability scores to make up some of the differences. A fighter,monk, or paladin with all 18s is going to be in the same ball park as the corresponding ToB class with a lesser PB

Are they? Considering what ToBs can do that aren't just hitting things, I think fighter pretty clearly gets left behind by warblade anyway. Paladin and monk might be a little closer to crusader and swordsage, respectively, but many similar abilities they have a ToB class can do all day and at an earlier level, while a pally or monk is limited to a few uses a day, sometimes less.

[Blue Jay]

As an endorsement to the quality of the list, I’ve been thinking about JaronKs old suggestion for using tiers as a starting point for gestalt.

After doing some analysis, I feel pretty confident that any class could play at any tier by adding enough T5 classes to make up the Tier difference. So for example any T3+2 synergistic T5s could play competitively in a T1 group. (Or any T4 +3 T5s, Or any T2+1 T5, or 5T5s). Where competitive play is defined by can contribute as an equal member of the team in a typical campaign, and will not be completely overmatched for more levels than it completely overmatched T1s. In most cases this looks like being decisively better for about levels 1-4 and not contesting levels 17+ with roughly 5-16 being in play. (In some cases this might require easing alignment restrictions to allow the gestalt). Would there be interest in a thread(s) to analyze that?

That seems like a frightfully complex analysis. How are you hoping to approach it? Would you just pick low-tier classes, one at a time, and debate which Tier 5 gestalts are needed to boost each one to Tier X? Or, were you thinking more of a general overview to test your prediction, by making a series of basically random gestalts and seeing if some kind of formula for tier-vote results emerges?

I think I'd personally be up for it, either way: I really enjoy random tinkering, but I don't quite feel confident in my ability to judge balance. A few years ago, I tried using "pseudo-gestalts" to make some low-tier class fixes for a game on Myth-Weavers, and I had a lot of fun with it; but I don't really think I knew what I was doing, and I'm pretty sure I got carried away with it. More recently, I've been tinkering with NPC gestalts to help boost some of the monsters that got weak ratings from Inevitability's RLA project. My gut feeling is that raw gestalts are often pretty clunky: ideally, you'd need to start with gestalt, then do a little "massaging" to mesh the gestalted mechanics together a bit into a new class, before you'd really see consistently good results. But, that's so much work: it would be nice if there was a simpler formula, eve if it's got a sizable margin of error to it.

[Doctor Despair]

Are they? Considering what ToBs can do that aren't just hitting things, I think fighter pretty clearly gets left behind by warblade anyway. Paladin and monk might be a little closer to crusader and swordsage, respectively, but many similar abilities they have a ToB class can do all day and at an earlier level, while a pally or monk is limited to a few uses a day, sometimes less.

That is a very fair point. What divides the tiers isn't just combat power, but versatility. Giving a T5 class straight 18s would make them a lot better at combat, and solving some problems by merit of having more skillpoints and bonuses, but is it enough to make them T3, assuming the DM doesn't just load the campaign up with straight combat and nothing else?

[Gnaeus]

That is a very fair point. What divides the tiers isn't just combat power, but versatility. Giving a T5 class straight 18s would make them a lot better at combat, and solving some problems by merit of having more skillpoints and bonuses, but is it enough to make them T3, assuming the DM doesn't just load the campaign up with straight combat and nothing else?

I think it would depend on the class. Some classes are in T5 because they have solid but barely functioning powers. Divine Mind for example has good utility but can’t really use its psionics well because it needs at least Str, Dex, Wis, Cha. As such it is very strong with all 18s or in gestalt with a Wis or Cha focused class.

Samurai or Swashbuckler clearly wouldn’t make it past T4.

To break from T4-T3 as a melee combatant you have to have solutions to melee problems. Can you hit incorporeals or swarms. Move and full attack. Fly. Fight invisible things. Switch from melee to ranged (which is more than owning a longbow you can barely use). Can you function without specific gear. Do you have a reasonable range of nope buttons that overcome melee problems or common threats. Some T5s (like Hexblade, Divine Mind and Truenamer) have some of the tools but aren’t really good in combat or need too many stats. Others (like swashbuckler, knight and samurai) are basically warriors with better numbers.

[Troacctid]

That is a very fair point. What divides the tiers isn't just combat power, but versatility. Giving a T5 class straight 18s would make them a lot better at combat, and solving some problems by merit of having more skillpoints and bonuses, but is it enough to make them T3, assuming the DM doesn't just load the campaign up with straight combat and nothing else?

Versatility and combat power are just different types of power. A class that has one but not the other isn't going to be T5. T5 classes generally don't have either.

[NigelWalmsley]

That is a very fair point. What divides the tiers isn't just combat power, but versatility.

That seems like a distinction without a difference. Power and versatility both represent the same kind of thing: the ability to solve a wider range of problems. Claiming to measure either one exclusively is simply leaving intentional blind spots in your system.

Depending on balance point you can increase the ability scores to make up some of the differences. A fighter,monk, or paladin with all 18s is going to be in the same ball park as the corresponding ToB class with a lesser PB

I really doubt that's true past very low levels. You're talking about a +2 to +5 relative bonus to some checks. That's not really a big deal when compared to e.g. Diamond Mind save replacers, which can be a +10 bonus without particularly trying.

[Luccan]

Versatility and combat power are just different types of power. A class that has one but not the other isn't going to be T5. T5 classes generally don't have either.

Precisely. I'd agree that better all-around stats would significantly improve a monk over standard point-buy or even rolled, but that's because it's MAD as hell. The actual class mechanics were what was reviewed and it simply doesn't measure up.

[Thunder999]

It really depends, better numbers can probably bring a class up to warblade/crusader power level easily enough, but it's not going to put anyone up in tier 1 or 2 where they have all those gamechanger spells.

[Lans]

Are they? Considering what ToBs can do that aren't just hitting things, I think fighter pretty clearly gets left behind by warblade anyway. Paladin and monk might be a little closer to crusader and swordsage, respectively, but many similar abilities they have a ToB class can do all day and at an earlier level, while a pally or monk is limited to a few uses a day, sometimes less.

The stuff that a warblade can do thats not just hitting things is fairly thin in scope. With heavy opportunity costs eating into it further.

I really doubt that's true past very low levels. You're talking about a +2 to +5 relative bonus to some checks. That's not really a big deal when compared to e.g. Diamond Mind save replacers, which can be a +10 bonus without particularly trying.

Well the DM save re placers have a side cost in requiring concentration ranks, are an immediate action, and only effects 1 ability in a round and might not be able to use it 2 rounds in a row. At level 10 about a +16 in concentration with those restrictions. A fighters will save should be about 9, so pretty steep difference if the fighter doesn't take the Resolute ACF.

[Gnaeus]

Versatility and combat power are just different types of power. A class that has one but not the other isn't going to be T5. T5 classes generally don't have either.

That’s an exaggeration.

Hexblade, for example, gets alter self. That’s flight, swim, climb, disguise and a decent combat boost. One of the most abusable low level spells.

They also get Polymorph. Again. One of the best spells in game.

They also get charms. Suggestion. D Door. See invisible. Scrying. Break Enchantment. Invisibility sphere. A ton of useful spells really. The problems are that they get them late, and not enough of them, and they can’t really fill any role well. They aren’t good fighters and you can’t rely on them as utility casters. But they bring a lot to a gestalt or they would benefit strongly from straight 18s.

The stuff that a warblade can do thats not just hitting things is fairly thin in scope. With heavy opportunity costs eating into it further..

It’s not that they hit things. It’s that they fix basic melee problems. They can move and meaningfully attack. They are strong against DR and invisibility. They can give away free turns to whichever PC needs them. They get counters and iron heart surge. They can target touch AC. They can do ability damage or Target saves. And that’s without borrowing from other disciplines. Barbarians hit things. Warblades are generally good at fighting.

[Efrate]

I do not think gestalt or asi will make enough difference for a lot of classes. It's better but it doesnt make them.better enough. Take hexblade. Giving it better saves skills and bab would nice, but all you have then is just a fighter with a few tricks, but still it's a fighter. As in the class. The abilities it has while potentially good are too few and too late, and gestalt and 18s do not mitigate that enough. You pop it up a tier maybe, but swordsage is still more or less a significantly upgraded version of you. The closest non homebrew functional hexblade I have seen is something like a focused specialist necromancer/necromancer eldritch knight or other gish with a necromancy focus. That is what the hexblade wants to be, in the case of a melee class with access to "evil" themed abilities that focus on weakening their enemies.

In 3.5 at least. Pathfinder has the Harbringer from DSP which does this so much better it's ridiculous, but it's a Path of war 3rd party class. So closer to a different take on a ToB class, likely swordsage.

[Bucky]

Truenamer is in Tier 5 largely because its abilities are based on skill checks whose DCs scale faster than most Truenamers can keep up with, and partly from a lack of non-Truenaming power. So it's plausibly a few numeric bonuses away from Tier 3 or 4. However, one of those bonuses must be a scaling bonus that applies to Truenaming; a flat +4 won't cut it past level 10 or so.

Divine Mind benefits quite a bit from having full physical stats without sacrificing Wisdom. It does have full martial weapon proficiency, but its auras are initially short-ranged, and statting for melee combat means the lack of much wisdom bonus would combine with the slow manifesting progression to gimp any powers that allow saves. Particularly affected are corruption-mantle builds, which need to be able to survive close to enemy casters and yet have a Wis-based DC for their main ability.

Finally, a couple of the tier 5s (Hexblade, Sohei) have Mettle, which becomes somewhat more valuable with 18s in save stats.

[NigelWalmsley]

The stuff that a warblade can do thats not just hitting things is fairly thin in scope. With heavy opportunity costs eating into it further.

The Warblade isn't especially good at things that aren't "hit enemies", but it is good at countering the things that stop Fighters from effectively hitting things. An optimized Warblade is substantially more effective than a Fighter not because he's doing things the Fighter isn't, but because he isn't countered by things the Fighter is.

Hexblade, for example, gets alter self. That’s flight, swim, climb, disguise and a decent combat boost. One of the most abusable low level spells.

And they get it at 8th level. The Bard gets it at 4th level. Alter Self is good for its level. It's not good at 8th level, because at that point people can just have Polymorph. Also, an argument that relies on the most broken spells in the game is not an especially good argument. Especially because you get delayed access to them. If the Hexblade is getting enough value out of Alter Self to contribute at 8th level, the people who get Alter Self at 3rd level are going to shred the game to small pieces.

But they bring a lot to a gestalt or they would benefit strongly from straight 18s.

They don't bring a lot of benefit to a gestalt. The Hexblade's issue is that it has a lot of weak abilities. It's kinda good at fighting, kinda good at casting, and kinda good at debuffing. That's not a good lineup for Gestalt, because Gestalt overlaps rather than stacking. You're better off picking up a class that is good at a specific thing (Rogue, Adept, Barbarian) and combining it with a class that is good at a different specific thing.

Truenamer is in Tier 5 largely because its abilities are based on skill checks whose DCs scale faster than most Truenamers can keep up with, and partly from a lack of non-Truenaming power.

The Truenamer is T5 because its abilities are very bad. Seriously, take a look some time. If you made them into Warlock Invocations (usable at will with no optimization needed), most of them wouldn't be worth taking. If the abilities worked all the time it might make it to the bottom of T4.

[Gnaeus]

And they get it at 8th level. The Bard gets it at 4th level. Alter Self is good for its level. It's not good at 8th level, because at that point people can just have Polymorph. Also, an argument that relies on the most broken spells in the game is not an especially good argument. Especially because you get delayed access to them. If the Hexblade is getting enough value out of Alter Self to contribute at 8th level, the people who get Alter Self at 3rd level are going to shred the game to small pieces..

And clerics don’t get it at all. A flight/swim/climb/disguise/combat power is good at any level. Most 3-4 Tier classes would love that power.

Also, the people who get it at 3rd (wizards) Or even 4th (bard, sorc) aren’t typically front line tanks who want an ac boost and a bite attack. It’s just fly 2 levels early. Which is better than fly 3 levels late. But again, being able to fly is way better than not, at any level.

Alter self is broken in the sense that it provides more than a second level spell should. It’s really about 5 spells of level 1-3 in one convenient package. Barring odd dwarf ancestor shenanigans it isn’t game breaking. And even those aren’t unreasonable at the level where hexblades get it

They don't bring a lot of benefit to a gestalt. The Hexblade's issue is that it has a lot of weak abilities. It's kinda good at fighting, kinda good at casting, and kinda good at debuffing. That's not a good lineup for Gestalt, because Gestalt overlaps rather than stacking. You're better off picking up a class that is good at a specific thing (Rogue, Adept, Barbarian) and combining it with a class that is good at a different specific thing

Hexblade is interesting in gestalt because it gives a lot of things that stack well with other classes. Familiars are good for skillmonkeys. So is full BAB &d10s. Mettle is good for classes with strong saves. Cha to saves on spell likes is really strong for classes with a Cha focus and especially for classes that already get Cha to saves, since it looks like those stack. And again, their list does have a lot of good spells. Yeah, they get suggestion later than a wizard. But again, lots of classes don’t get suggestion, and it doesn’t stop being useful.

And yes, gestalting with Tier 4 classes is stronger than gestalting with tier 5s. No surprise there. It isn’t necessarily stronger than gestalting with 2 tier 5s in a system where that is an option (like, Tier 3 can gestalt with T4 or 2 T5s, Tier 4 with another 4 and a 5 or 3 5s)

And occasionally, classes just have the set of tools you want. If I’m playing a Spellthief, I’d rather gestalt with hexblade than any of those classes you mention. I want good BAB/hp but not rage. I want a familiar to steal powers from and share skills/spells with. I want Cha synergy. I want stuff to keep the enemy wizard from nuking me while I loot his powers and resistance makes absorb spell stronger. I’ll even use the bonus casting feats. Hexblade is a bag of win there.

That, incidentally, is why I enjoy gestalt. There’s a certain char op joy to finding the things that combine well.

The Truenamer is T5 because its abilities are very bad. Seriously, take a look some time. If you made them into Warlock Invocations (usable at will with no optimization needed), most of them wouldn't be worth taking. If the abilities worked all the time it might make it to the bottom of T4.

Bottom of T3. They are the topmost T5 class already. Most of them may not be worth taking. Most sorcerer spells aren’t worth taking. But they can get useful invocations at every level. They are decent healers. They dovetail very strongly with skillmonkeys. They get some of those countering muggle problem powers, like countering flight and invisibility. Some very nice buffs to caster levels which you could likely leverage into some love from your wizard or cleric in a non-cooperative party. A lot of their stuff they get later than a wizard, true. But that’s still better than not getting it at all.

[Lans]

It’s not that they hit things. It’s that they fix basic melee problems. They can move and meaningfully attack. They are strong against DR and invisibility. They can give away free turns to whichever PC needs them. They get counters and iron heart surge. They can target touch AC. They can do ability damage or Target saves. And that’s without borrowing from other disciplines. Barbarians hit things. Warblades are generally good at fighting.

The Warblade can only prepare so many manuevers at a time. Are you sure he can cover all of that?

The Warblade isn't especially good at things that aren't "hit enemies", but it is good at countering the things that stop Fighters from effectively hitting things. An optimized Warblade is substantially more effective than a Fighter not because he's doing things the Fighter isn't, but because he isn't countered by things the Fighter is.
.

Can I get a list of things the fighter is being countered by that the warblade isn't?

[Gnaeus]

The Warblade can only prepare so many manuevers at a time. Are you sure he can cover all of that?

Move and attack. That’s pretty much any decent strike.
Invisible opponents. Well, blind fight and improved uncanny dodge are free. Otherwise it’s a stance which we can shift into as a swift.
At 10 we get 8 maneuvers known without gear or feats. We can change them in 5 minutes as needed, so faster than a T1 can fill an empty spell slot. 5 readied without feats. I’d take the ones with the * and whichever counter seemed most likely to be relevant. Much better with gear or feats.
White Raven: any L1 strike, white raven tactics* (which alone is better than anything fighter ever gets)
Iron Heart: wall of blades, Iron heart surge*
Diamond Mind: action before thought, mind over body, disrupting blow.*
Stone Dragon: mountain hammer*