Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

[Anthrowhale]

Funny, I was just discovering that trick myself today. Substitute Domain is quite nice for flexibility, no question, but the 10 minute casting time is a meaningful limitation. You can prep for tomorrow but not for the fight in the next room. I guess it gets a lot better with Scribe Scroll or the like.

Also, it feels cheesy, but that's completely subjective.

For wizards, leaving some slots open for mid-day memorization is considered a good tactic. This is a bit faster but it requires expending a level 2 spell.

The scroll version is something like Rary's Arcane Conversion, except as a level 2 spell (instead of level 6) with a scroll expenditure and a domain constraint.

It's not outlandish, although it's clearly powerful in the "nearly required" sense that Natural Spell is. However, it's probably not required as the _first_ chosen 2nd level spell---you might consider delaying a level or two until the opportunity cost of using level 2 spells is not to high (and stock up on scrolls in compensation).

I looked through the original thread---it seems Substitute Domain was not mentioned.

In addition to enhancing Spontaneous Cleric and Evangelist, this also essentially removes the many-domains advantage of the Evangelist relative to the Spontaneous Cleric. The Evangelist gets roughly an extra spell/day while the Spontaneous Cleric gets Turn Undead, the ability to cast domain spells a level earlier, and heavy armor proficiency.

[Lans]

If you need 6 skills maxed out to be an effective scout, then all of the familiars or animal companion guides that say X is a good familiar/animal companion for scouting must be lying through their teeth.

ACs are a renewable resource. Familiars more expendable, and even then I would not send them out unless its off a beguiler.

Disable device on a scout? Disabling a trap takes 2d4 rounds. I don't know about you, but remaining in place for 2d4 rounds while sneaking around where traps would be probably means your going to fail at the whole not getting caught thing (and let's not even talk about heavily trapped areas where there is more than one trap). Not to mention that if your DM throws magic traps at you, unless you have trapfinding (which Incarnates can pick up through a chakra bind if one so chooses), you're just outta luck, on finding them & disabling them. Also, being behind only 1 skill point for over 10 levels is pretty fine for 0 investment. If you really want to fill the role to the maximum, you can also sink skill points into it. Incarnates are pretty fine with CC skills.

How about at level 7 explain your 0 investment incarnate scout layout. I've already stated why I don't think it does it as well as people think. Maybe you can move me from my .25 BAB and 2 skills/level short of tier 3 stance.

And one can argue search isn't necessary for a scout, seeing as there is the whole full-round action to search a 5 foot square, which means to scout with the skill will take actual minutes to do it. Granted, I've never seen a DM be this strict with the Search skill, but if your goal as a scout is to go in and gather information, if you have to spend several minutes bumming around searching every nook and cranny, then as a whole stealth isn't really necessary to explore in the situation.

I'm assuming at the very least a search and listen on any door or window that the scout may go through.

But in serious, according to that logic, you need 6 skills as class skills (+being maxed out) + a specific class feature found on less than a dozen classes to be an effective party scout.

Yes, there is a reason all the scouty classes get a bunch of skill points, and most get trapfinding.

Also, can you give examples of the Incarnate falling behind? I'm interesting to see how, as you've stated several times it to be true but haven't actually stated how.

Also, seeing as we've been talking about the incarnate number wise, there is a saved thread on ENWorld "Incarnate by the numbers" that breaks down the Incarnate by the numbers. (I tried to link it, but the forum had a hissy fit).

I already stated how they fall behind in damage and oppositional skills,

[Troacctid]

How about at level 7 explain your 0 investment incarnate scout layout. I've already stated why I don't think it does it as well as people think. Maybe you can move me from my .25 BAB and 2 skills/level short of tier 3 stance.

Mage's Spectacles, do it with UMD. 🤷

If that's not your cup of tea, then Cerulean Sandals to blip through walls + Soulspark Familiar to actually do the seeing and hearing.

[Lans]

Mage's Spectacles, do it with UMD. 🤷

I'm not the biggest fan of relying on UMD to do things, and using it for scouting is off enough that I'm even less of a fan of it.

If that's not your cup of tea, then Cerulean Sandals to blip through walls + Soulspark Familiar to actually do the seeing and hearing.

That might work, tell me more.

[Buufreak]

I'm not the biggest fan of relying on UMD to do things, and using it for scouting is off enough that I'm even less of a fan of it.

Just because you aren't a fan of an option doesn't negate the fact that it is viable. UMD is what makes many classes even remotely competent.

[Gnaeus]

Just because you aren't a fan of an option doesn't negate the fact that it is viable. UMD is what makes many classes even remotely competent.

That’s a good way of saying many classes aren’t even remotely competent. Reliance on specific gear you can’t make is a hallmark of low tier classes. It requires player skill, resources, and a non guaranteed play environment.

[Buufreak]

That’s a good way of saying many classes aren’t even remotely competent. Reliance on specific gear you can’t make is a hallmark of low tier classes. It requires player skill, resources, and a non guaranteed play environment.

The same could be said about all game mechanics. The dm could rule that the table didn't rp enough and no one gets experience. The dm can also rule with that silly finding treasure rule and bump the party straight to 20 for finding the world's biggest dragon hoard. The entire game is based on ifs, the point of tiers is seeing who can consistently be the most competent, regardless of situation. UMD, by itself, helps to increase competence. Having a built-into-class means of spontaneously or daily boost UMD by about a dozen points helps to increase competence.

[LordCharlemagne]

I was avoiding bringing up UMD because any build can go down the UMD use/abuse path if they really want to. The Incarnate is one of the classes that have an easier time doing so and can pull it off earlier than most (which absolutely counts for something), but I wasn't personally going to be going down the math of that because it's just a deep rabbit hole.

ACs are a renewable resource. Familiars more expendable, and even then I would not send them out unless its off a beguiler.

Are you saying soulmelds aren't? That's actually what they are. You use up some of your resources you can recover to gain a set of abilities. You can then invest Essentia into or out of them with a swift action for greater or different bonuses.

Maybe you can move me from my .25 BAB and 2 skills/level short of tier 3 stance.

Well, first, Warmage, Shugenja, Warlock, Binder, Dragonfire Adept, Healer, Duskblade, & Psychic warrior all either have have 1/2 BAB or 2 skill points per level, so that's kind of an arbitrary benchmark to hold tier 3 classes to.

Unless you're saying that the class is tier 4 because it falls just short of tier 3 by .25 BAB and 2 skills/level, where in that case, what? You can straight up buy 3/4 BAB with the skillful weapon enhancement (a +2 weapon enhancement so the it costs a starting value of ~18,000 to start with a +1 Skillful weapon). It ain't cheap but it ain't end-game weapon material, and only some LN and NE incarnate builds really want it (CN bow users would, but we don't touch Incarnate bow users without multi-classing).

And let's not discuss the fact that BAB is an overrated number that people screw themselves trying to get when in reality it is a small bonus that only really matters at 6th & 8th level to get the one extra attack that has a serious impact on total power.

Also, skills are nice and all, but holding a class down a tier because it would really like slightly more, especially for a class that has a really dumb amount of skill manipulation abilities already, is just strange.

How about at level 7 explain your 0 investment incarnate scout layout. I've already stated why I don't think it does it as well as people think.

I'm busy today, but I'll see what I can throw together tomorrow when I have more time. I will admit that Scout is probably the only skill role that the incarnate cannot do with 0 investment, primarily because the hide & move silently soulmelds are on the totemist list (AFB, but Worg pelt and Kruthik claws are the ones I'm talking about). Would you want me to invest a feat to pick up one of those soulmelds to stick with the scouting role, switch to a different skill role, or stick to this specific skill role for 0 long term investment? I'm down to try whichever one.

[Troacctid]

That might work, tell me more.

That's it, that's the whole plan. If you're really hung up on it, any character can take the Bind Vestige feat chain or put on a third eye.

[Gnaeus]

The same could be said about all game mechanics. The dm could rule that the table didn't rp enough and no one gets experience. The dm can also rule with that silly finding treasure rule and bump the party straight to 20 for finding the world's biggest dragon hoard. The entire game is based on ifs, the point of tiers is seeing who can consistently be the most competent, regardless of situation. UMD, by itself, helps to increase competence. Having a built-into-class means of spontaneously or daily boost UMD by about a dozen points helps to increase competence.

The DM could. But crazy extreme examples, like crazy extreme builds, aren’t relevant to class comparisons. Normal play environments are. Some games have magic mart. Some don’t. Some games have something in between, like rolling to see if specific gear is available. Some games are on deserted pirate islands or involve characters losing gear. Would you rather I cite published games or games I’ve been in because I can easily do either.

Is a character with UMD better than one that isn’t? Yes! Even in a random drop game being able to use items is better than not. Maybe better by more because that funky wand you’d rather have sold might be your best solution to an otherwise easy problem like invisible badguys or flying enemies.. Does a low WBL or restricted magic mart game punish low tier characters disproportionately? Absolutely! It’s one of the best reasons not to do that. But for really truly I swear because I was there one of the main arguments about why rogue is T4 when JaronK was doing this a decade ago is that rogues can’t guarantee their class powers working against common foes without cheap items like wand chambers, level 1 swift action wands and weapon crystals.

[Lans]

Are you saying soulmelds aren't? That's actually what they are. You use up some of your resources you can recover to gain a set of abilities. You can then invest Essentia into or out of them with a swift action for greater or different bonuses.

If an Animal companion is detected and killed its a 1 day no cost replacement, if the incarnate gets detected and killed its game over. Or at least a lost level till true res becomes available.

Well, first, Warmage, Shugenja, Warlock, Binder, Dragonfire Adept, Healer, Duskblade, & Psychic warrior all either have have 1/2 BAB or 2 skill points per level, so that's kind of an arbitrary benchmark to hold tier 3 classes to.

Unless you're saying that the class is tier 4 because it falls just short of tier 3 by .25 BAB and 2 skills/level, where in that case, what? You can straight up buy 3/4 BAB with the skillful weapon enhancement (a +2 weapon enhancement so the it costs a starting value of ~18,000 to start with a +1 Skillful weapon). It ain't cheap but it ain't end-game weapon material, and only some LN and NE incarnate builds really want it (CN bow users would, but we don't touch Incarnate bow users without multi-classing).

Yes, but while your spending that much money on shoring up your weakness another character could be spending that money on other things or becoming better at hitting things. It also assumes you have access to that item.

And let's not discuss the fact that BAB is an overrated number that people screw themselves trying to get when in reality it is a small bonus that only really matters at 6th & 8th level to get the one extra attack that has a serious impact on total power.

If the incarnate had a bunch of natural attacks, or something like the manticore belt, or a flurry type ability, it would be less of an issue. Or if it got a more damage or riders on its damage abilities.

Also, skills are nice and all, but holding a class down a tier because it would really like slightly more, especially for a class that has a really dumb amount of skill manipulation abilities already, is just strange.

Well, I put a bar which its not reaching with its skill manipulation abilities. So it could reach tier 3 if those were better.


I think its really close to tier 3, it getting bonus feats like a wizard, a little more essentia and 1 more capacity to essentia, or a little bit better soulmelds could also put it over.

I'm busy today, but I'll see what I can throw together tomorrow when I have more time. I will admit that Scout is probably the only skill role that the incarnate cannot do with 0 investment, primarily because the hide & move silently soulmelds are on the totemist list (AFB, but Worg pelt and Kruthik claws are the ones I'm talking about). Would you want me to invest a feat to pick up one of those soulmelds to stick with the scouting role, switch to a different skill role, or stick to this specific skill role for 0 long term investment? I'm down to try whichever one.

Try to do the scouting role with out being pigeon holed into it. Does that sound reasonable?

[AnimeTheCat]

If an Animal companion is detected and killed its a 1 day no cost replacement, if the incarnate gets detected and killed its game over. Or at least a lost level till true res becomes available.

The animal comp a union is distinctly lacking in the communication and reasoning department. Animal companions, as far as I know, never possess trapfinding or trap sense, so they're far from effective scouts, not to mention if the animal companion doesn't belong in the place it's scouting that's still suspicious (wolves dont typically delve in to caves alone, riding dogs aren't typically found in the wild, fleshrakers are pack animal endogenous to jungles... you get my point hopefully). Further, an incarnate is a PC, so usually more intelligent than an animal of above average intelligence for an animal (but still just an animal) and thusly should be more aware of situations and more able of withdrawing in an intelligent manner. Animal companions and familiars are not acceptable, nor are they competent, scouts.

Yes, but while your spending that much money on shoring up your weakness another character could be spending that money on other things or becoming better at hitting things. It also assumes you have access to that item.

Just like any class depends on any item, except incarnates really don't even need the item because they usually target a lower (on average) AC than most higher BSB classes which more than compensates. Additionally, when they don't, I cant think of a situation where other soulmelds wouldn't be used as an equalizer (+1 or more incarnate weapon, bloodwar gauntlets, bluesteel bracers... there are a lot of melee attack boosters). You prioritize what you're going to do, only incsrnstes can change what they do from day to day, and that's not something other T4 classes can do, that is something T1 classes can do though.

If the incarnate had a bunch of natural attacks, or something like the manticore belt, or a flurry type ability, it would be less of an issue. Or if it got a more damage or riders on its damage abilities.

they don't need that though. Bards are a quintessential T3, they dont put up 1d6/level damage. By your benchmark of damage bards should be T4 or lower. Damage is not everything and the damage Incarnates put up makes them plenty competent to meaningfully contribute in nearly every situation if given even a cursory level of preparation.

Well, I put a bar which its not reaching with its skill manipulation abilities. So it could reach tier 3 if those were better.

You put a bar that many T3 and T4 classes can't achieve. Dedicated scout's do, but no one else can. I dont feel that "equivalent to a dedicated member of that specific role" defines "competent", especially since one of the definitions of competent is "acceptable and satisfactory, though not outstanding." Competence is more akin to being able to do some task with relative reliability, which an incarnate can do with nearly every role.

I think its really close to tier 3, it getting bonus feats like a wizard, a little more essentia and 1 more capacity to essentia, or a little bit better soulmelds could also put it over.

you can pick up feats with your character level feats that increase your capacity on one soulmeld for the day and you can grab the feat that gives you an additional soulmeld. On the topic of the Shape Soulmeld feat, it was discussed in another thread (not the original tier thread, but a build help one) about how the Shape Soulmeld fest interacts with Meldshaper classes. For instance, does the fest grant a meldshaper what is essentially an additional soulmeld shaped for the day, but that can only be used for that specific soulmeld selected by the feat? That's how it works for non meldshapers, so why would it work differently for meldshapers. Regardless, it takes one feat to be a competent scout:

Try to do the scouting role with out being pigeon holed into it. Does that sound reasonable?

level 7... 5 soulmelds, 2 binds, crown, feet, hands chakras open. Just with some cursory optimization, i.e. picking obviously good choices from the book the class is in, race: azurin, bonus feat:shape soulmeld(Worg Pelt), other feats: irrelevant, skill investments: irrelevant (though knowledge skills are quite nice), soulmelds shaped (3+worg pelt): truthseeker goggles (brow), dissolving spittle (throat), fellmist robe (soul), worg pelt (feet), soulmelds bound (2): (hands) theft gloves, (crown) soulspark familiar. That solidly covers scouting, damage, and rudementary survival (the ability to hide in your own fellmist robe), on top of providing an additional scout at the same opportunity cost as an animal companion, except it's better in a few ways since it has a higher Int and innate flight (perfect maneuverability). With you attacking with a full power dissolving spittle and with soulspark familiar fully charged for attack and damage, you'll get off 3d6 acid and 1d6+5 soul blast. 4d6+5 damage with literally no feat investment is only 1d6 behind a medium rogue with no feat investment and 20 strength sneak attacking with a short sword (1d6 sword +4d6 sneak attack + 5 strength), or probably about equal to a more reasonable rogue (shortsword with 12-14 strength). You're hitting comparable numbers to a rogue on your skills (maxed melds gets you 8 or 10+attribute, so max ranks at 7 is 10, you're either equal to or 2 behind). That's plenty competent, but bonus points, it didn't cost you permanent build resources (save one very useful feat that is helpful beyond just scouting) and you're not pigeons in to it because the next day you can shape a whole new set of melds without missing a beat. If you so desired, you could invest more heavily into your dissolving spittle damage, though I really don't think that's necessary personally. Most T1 classes aren't dropping 1d6/level, and many T2 aren't by proxy of that. I know druids and clerics aren't except at the highest levels of optimization, so neither are favored souls, spontaneous clerics, urban druids, spontaneous druids, spirit shamans, etc. Heck, even wizards aren't really either, though that's more to do with their actions being more bound to debilitating the enemy. I think you can see my point. Can they out power the big dogs, no. Do they bring more to the table than a T4 class, yes in nearly every situation only lagging behind ever so slightly in raw numbers, but excelling ever so far ahead in versatility.

[Lans]

The animal comp a union is distinctly lacking in the communication and reasoning department. Animal companions, as far as I know, never possess trapfinding or trap sense, so they're far from effective scouts, not to mention if the animal companion doesn't belong in the place it's scouting that's still suspicious (wolves dont typically delve in to caves alone, riding dogs aren't typically found in the wild, fleshrakers are pack animal endogenous to jungles... you get my point hopefully). Further, an incarnate is a PC, so usually more intelligent than an animal of above average intelligence for an animal (but still just an animal) and thusly should be more aware of situations and more able of withdrawing in an intelligent manner. Animal companions and familiars are not acceptable, nor are they competent, scouts.

I don't care either way about the animal companion, but I don't think the druid is going to have a fleshraker doing scouting.

Just like any class depends on any item, except incarnates really don't even need the item because they usually target a lower (on average) AC than most higher BSB classes which more than compensates. Additionally, when they don't, I cant think of a situation where other soulmelds wouldn't be used as an equalizer (+1 or more incarnate weapon, bloodwar gauntlets, bluesteel bracers... there are a lot of melee attack boosters). You prioritize what you're going to do, only incsrnstes can change what they do from day to day, and that's not something other T4 classes can do, that is something T1 classes can do though.

It's a matter of needing general items vs specific item from a specific book, as well as opportunity cost of the money and not using incarnate weapon.

they don't need that though. Bards are a quintessential T3, they dont put up 1d6/level damage. By your benchmark of damage bards should be T4 or lower. Damage is not everything and the damage Incarnates put up makes them plenty competent to meaningfully contribute in nearly every situation if given even a cursory level of preparation.

By the definition of T3 is

very good at solving a couple of problems and competent at solving a few more. Of course, there are other possibilities, for example that you might instead be competent at solving nearly all problems.

I don't think it reaches very good at anything, so it needs to be competent at nearly all problems. Which it is not by my definition of competent. Whether Bards hit either benchmark or not relevent to the incarnate's standing.

You put a bar that many T3 and T4 classes can't achieve. Dedicated scout's do, but no one else can. I dont feel that "equivalent to a dedicated member of that specific role" defines "competent", especially since one of the definitions of competent is "acceptable and satisfactory, though not outstanding." Competence is more akin to being able to do some task with relative reliability, which an incarnate can do with nearly every role.

I think most classes don't need to because they fit the first definition of tier 3, and I don't know exactly what is meant by 'competent at solving nearly all problems' but that leaves room for missing out on solving at least 1 problem.

A dedicated scout is going to have a higher skill than just its ranks.

you can pick up feats with your character level feats that increase your capacity on one soulmeld for the day and you can grab the feat that gives you an additional soulmeld. On the topic of the Shape Soulmeld feat, it was discussed in another thread (not the original tier thread, but a build help one) about how the Shape Soulmeld fest interacts with Meldshaper classes. For instance, does the fest grant a meldshaper what is essentially an additional soulmeld shaped for the day, but that can only be used for that specific soulmeld selected by the feat? That's how it works for non meldshapers, so why would it work differently for meldshapers. Regardless, it takes one feat to be a competent scout:

Yes, I am obviously aware of those. Still think it falls short. If it expanded all your melds it might do it, or it could show a deficiency in essentia.

*Snip*

Ill need to look over this later to see if its not missing a skill, or coming up short on essentia.

Edit- It looks like you don't have spot or listen, so I'll assume your using the soulspark familiar to cover that aspect? It comes up a little bit short on what I would want in that aspect, but I think you can aid other on those. Or 2 rolls vs 1. Your damage should be a d6 higher. I think if fellmist robe is giving you cover to hide in then its gong to be a little noticeable. SSF can't scout like an AC due to its tether to you.

Overall its pretty good, but it doesn't get any better till level 12, but I'm convinced to put it in to tier 3.5. It's not hitting Tier 3 past level 7, but it's extremely high tier 3 for the first few levels.

[AnimeTheCat]

I don't think it reaches very good at anything, so it needs to be competent at nearly all problems. Which it is not by my definition of competent. Whether Bards hit either benchmark or not relevent to the incarnate's standing.

On mobile, so I'll probably respond more at length later, but this bolded part. What you're saying is definitely not true. A bard is a great comparison to make for the incarnate. It does not excel at anything in particular, but can be reasonably competent at nearly all things, much like the claim of the incarnate. My thoughts are if the incarnate can hit that same level of general competence as the bard, then they should be in the same general power level as each other. So, from my point of view using the bard as a reference point and a point of comparison is in fact very much relevant.

[Troacctid]

I don't think it reaches very good at anything, so it needs to be competent at nearly all problems. Which it is not by my definition of competent. Whether Bards hit either benchmark or not relevent to the incarnate's standing.

Reminder though that that's descriptive, not prescriptive. Simply being better than every T4 class, or at least one T3 class, is sufficient for a T3 ranking.

[Buufreak]

Reminder though that that's descriptive, not prescriptive. Simply being better than every T4 class, or at least one T3 class, is sufficient for a T3 ranking.

Is it? I've seen plenty of rating systems where being at the top of your class doesn't necessity belonging in the next higher class. I also don't believe that last clause is in the tier definitions, old or new.

[remetagross]

I’m a little bit afraid that the voting system, as it continues, is introducing a bit of systemic bias in the form of pushing borderline classes up a tier.

I’m not sure how to solve but just to clarify what I mean. Classes are tiered based on equivalent optimization. So, let’s say that my favorite class is monk, or truenamer, or knight, or marshall. Their playstyle complements mine and I know all the tricks. And legitimately, because as JaronK always said varying optimization can easily shift a tier. So anyway I know all the cool things my favorite class can do, so probably when I play that class it is a tier higher than when I play another class of that tier. Because I’ve playtested it and read guides and searched for tricks and now I see the way I play that class as representative. But I’m not necessarily fairly grading it compared to other classes of that tier or the next tier up or down that aren’t my favorite class.

In general voting that should more or less cancel out. Many of us voted on most classes. Or at least most classes with which we are reasonably well acquainted (like, personally I didn’t vote on incarna classes because no one ever played them in a game I was in, but I probably voted on most or all others). So assuming (which isn’t probably true) a more or less equal favored class distribution you will, (maybe) get every class ranked a bit above where it should be but comparatively the numbers should be relevant.

So then once you’ve posted everything, the only new votes are likely to be outliers. No one is going to come in and say “yes I agree knight is tier 5. Add my vote.” But if knight is my favorite class I may well see post, get offended, and jump in with a vote for Knight as T4. Especially with the border cases I would predict slow walks toward higher tiers. Just something to watch for and factor in when we compare what the results mean.

I agree with this too. For example, Troacctid, you definitely know how to pull off a Warlock that ends up Tier 3, but doesn't the Warlock have quite a low power floor due to the easy-to-fall-in trap of picking crappy Invocations? I've never played a Warlock, so I can't say for sure, but my gut feeling is that a Warlock screwed by an unaware player is going to end up worse than, say, a Warblade screwed by an unaware player. So far Warlock is ranked slightly below the means for Tier 3, which seems quite OK to my gut assessment, but if Warlock-proficient people come in and start voting en masse for Warlock as Tier 3, that might shift its ranking upwards in a way that is biased towards a higher optimization level that what is the case for other classes.

[Gauntlet]

Comparing Incarnate to the Bard, then:

Stealth

Incarnate can get to +8-10 on stealth skills at level 6 via soulmeld, but only if they spent a feat on getting access to a meld from the Totemist list. This +10 number doesn't increase further till 11, though, and they're stuck with cross class skill ranks.

Bards have Hide, and Move Silently in-class and the skill points to fuel them. They have easy access to Invisibility and Silence, and later on get Clairaudience/Clairvoyance and Scrying.

Bard wins

Perception/Trapfinding

Incarnate's Keeneye Lenses and Truthseeker Goggles cover scouting stuff, and can get Trapfinding if required, through Theft Gloves.

Bards need to jump through hoops to get access to much trapfinding at all. In fact, I think the most direct way of getting trapfinding is by taking Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra, although they probably don't have the feats unless nobody else in the party is suited to it. They also have Listen but not Spot in-class, and are unlikely to have a good Wisdom modifier.

Incarnate wins

Combat
Incarnate can deal 5d6 as a ranged touch attack or on a melee strike at level 6, which doesn't increase till 6d6 at level 11. If you're investing resources in it, you can double Acidic Spittle values with Share Soulmeld, but this often requires dipping.

Bard has a baseline of Inspire Courage +1, +2 at 8th, and doesn't reach +3 until 14th, which is underwhelming. This scales with party size, summons and similar effects, and has a lot of resources available for improving it - with a modicum of investment (masterwork instrument, badge of valor, inspirational boost) it reaches much more relevant values, and there's the option of going further with Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart and Words of Creation.

In terms of contribution to overall damage output, Incarnate is probably slightly ahead as a baseline, but Bard scales far better with system mastery and with resource investment.

Draw

Social

Incarnates can get +8-10 from soulmelds with little effort, and they get at-will Suggestion at level 14. With some cross-class skill ranks, they're probably looking at approximately +15 to a social skill they're focusing on by level 6, up to around +20 by level 11.

Bards have all the social skills on their class list, their primary attribute is Charisma, and they have a huge array of social spells on their list along with a variety of universal skill-boosting stuff. They hit similar values of around +15 at level 6 without major investment, but scale up more quickly than the Incarnate and can supplement with both spell options and bardic music, including Glibness.

Bard wins

Durability

Incarnates have Constitution as their primary attribute, a d6 hit die, medium armor proficiency, and can gain another +4-6 AC from soulmelds along with some save bonuses, and good Fort and Will saves. They also have access to Spellward Shirt and can actually get legitimiately useful amounts of SR out of it - 21 at 6th, up to 25 at 11th.

Bards lose some HP each hit die from not prioritising Con, and probably 5-8 AC from lack of medium armor and soulmelds, before spells. Base saves are also slightly lower (probably lower ability modifiers, but they keep two good saves and Savage Bard has the same Fort/Will). In exchange, Bards get the Cure spell line (and Healing Hymn), and can supplement personal resilience with effects like Mirror Image and Instant of Power.

Draw

Utility

Incarnates have some other out of combat skills they can use - short range flight or teleportation, access to Use Magic Device, Detect Magic, minor minionmancy with Soulspark Familiar, and some on-demand immunities including disease and mind control. They have a reasonable selection of options for avoiding getting shut down by the enemy, but in terms of proactive options for resolving non-violent encounters and problems their only real options are skill checks.

Bards have a spell list with encounter ending powers on it of many forms, from Alter Self to Dispel Magic to Remove Curse to Silent Image. Even disregarding spellcasting, Bardic Knowledge brings a lot of utility, and noncombat skills are also something a Bard excels at.

Bard wins



Overall, it looks to me like in terms of ability to be a 'jack of all trades', an Incarnate is able to mundanely contribute to most tasks, but has nowhere near the encounter-ending ability that a Bard has. A bard only needs to know Improvisation to be able to exceed the Incarnate's ability on most skill related challenges (when combined with their skill points) and then has a whole spell list full of ways to supernaturally bypass challenging tasks in addition to that. IMO there is a reasonable subset of problems which an Incarnate is not really capable of solving - mostly, those that are magic related. As far as skill checks go, while an Incarnate's ability to do most skills at ~+10 is nice, hiring two first level experts (4 ranks, skill focus, aid another) gets you a +9 (or more) modifier in whatever it is you need if that's required - replicating the effects of a spell list is far more difficult and costs a lot more money.

[HouseRules]

Since the range of votes is from 1.000 to 6.000, then we have 6-1 = 5, and 6 categories, so each category should be 5/6, not 4 categories with an arbitrary width of 1 and the top and bottom categories with a width of 1/2.

Tier 1 Upper Bound 1.000 Lower Bound 1.834
Tier 2 Upper Bound 1.833 Lower Bound 2.667
Tier 3 Upper Bound 2.666 Lower Bound 3.500
Tier 4 Upper Bound 3.499 Lower Bound 4.334
Tier 5 Upper Bound 4.333 Lower Bound 5.167
Tier 6 Upper Bound 5.166 Lower Bound 6.000

Each tier has the same width in possible range.
This is more meaningful than arbitrary X.5 system.

[Luccan]

Is it? I've seen plenty of rating systems where being at the top of your class doesn't necessity belonging in the next higher class. I also don't believe that last clause is in the tier definitions, old or new.

Well, it's either that a class that is better than another T3 class is at least T3 or that T3 class should be T4. Surely that's sound. Yeah, being at the top of T4 doesn't make you T3, but if we agree it's better than a class we also agree is T3... Which we don't necessarily, but I don't think the idea in itself is flawed.

[LordCharlemagne]

Well, AnimeTheCat beat me to the punch about dotting out a scout, so props to them. If you want spot and you're not worried about lack of concealment, you can swap out fellmist robes for Keeneye lenses for spot. If you truly want to, you can also take shape soulmeld(dissolving spittle) to branch your attack meld off of your class, but that's a stretch and I wouldn't suggest it.

About the skillful weapon enhancement, I only brought that up because you can just buy BAB. And Incarnates don't need it if they don't want to (dissolving spittle or lightening gauntlets can have you covered). I was just bringing it up because complaining about BAB mattering for a classes tier is an outdated thought. BAB is nice and helpful at some levels, but the obsession over it really needs to die. Incarnates are by far super chill with their gear. They're not gear independent like tier 1 & 2's are, but they are by far able to work with less optimal gear then any of the other tier 4 classes (besides maybe shadowcasters, but that class just has a leveling issue at the levels that matter the most that holds it back).

Also, on the Incarnate vs Bard comparison, the Bard definitely beats out the Incarnate, no competition. However, in the quick comparison above, the Incarnate is capable of being in a draw with the bard. I think that speak favorably of the Incarnate, that it can do of equal measure or be a bit behind the bard, a core class book that has support across nearly every book in 3.5 in some way, while the Incarnate has its own book it was introduced in later on, some dragonmagic stuff, and one or two web articles.

And talking about the floor of the Incarnate is strange. The class's floor isn't great, but in a practical sense, nobody who isn't going to optimize it isn't going to play an Incarnate. It's not a core or complete book class, it's in a niche book that a large amount of people will simply say they have no idea about how it works. The only people who are going to play incarnate are going to be the people who have actively decided they want to try their hand at that awkward 3.5 class. Not saying this should factor into its tier, but you can't really talk about the Joe Schmoe's incarnate because they're simply isn't one.

hiring two first level experts (4 ranks, skill focus, aid another) gets you a +9 (or more) modifier in whatever it is you need if that's required - replicating the effects of a spell list is far more difficult and costs a lot more money.

I just want to point out that using a class independent trick that is easily performed is by no means a good way to devalue the class, seeing as they can do it to. Also, some skills you can't practically hire experts for.

I do agree that Bard > Incarnate. Incarnate are definitely on the worse side tier 3 in my opinion, but I don't feel that you can have the Incarnate and the Totemist in different tiers because when you get down to it, they are quite similar.

I’m a little bit afraid that the voting system, as it continues, is introducing a bit of systemic bias in the form of pushing borderline classes up a tier.

This voting system most definitely has systemic bias in it. People tend to vote for the classes that they know, and if you know a class, you are probably going to vote higher or lower than what it truly is because of it. Not to mention that there are outside forces at work too. I only voted because Troacctid asked me too when I posted my opinions in the Mike Miller's discord (I don't like forums). If our opinions on some of the subject really differed, I may not have been asked. And we can't tell what is going on with other people that may bias them, because TTRPG's are a highly personalized thing. Each group has their own subculture and although there is cross spread, it's slow.
The question is that is there a better way to create a tier list that has involvement from the community and not just the opinion of one individual, like what we had with the old one.

[Buufreak]

Well, it's either that a class that is better than another T3 class is at least T3 or that T3 class should be T4. Surely that's sound. Yeah, being at the top of T4 doesn't make you T3, but if we agree it's better than a class we also agree is T3... Which we don't necessarily, but I don't think the idea in itself is flawed.

Right, being better than another 3 makes sense to be a 3, but only if it is completely quantified and not just in a single category of gameplay. What I'm saying is your middle point: being king of the 4s doesn't make you a 3. Same goes for any and every other tier.

[AnimeTheCat]

Comparing Incarnate to the Bard, then:

Stealth

Incarnate can get to +8-10 on stealth skills at level 6 via soulmeld, but only if they spent a feat on getting access to a meld from the Totemist list. This +10 number doesn't increase further till 11, though, and they're stuck with cross class skill ranks.

Bards have Hide, and Move Silently in-class and the skill points to fuel them. They have easy access to Invisibility and Silence, and later on get Clairaudience/Clairvoyance and Scrying.

Bard wins

Ok, so this bard has now spent 1 skill point per level on hide and move silently, as well as two/three/four spells known on invisibility, silence, and scrying, so at the comparison level of 6, you've spent 1/3 of your class granted skill points, and all but one of your spells known for this particular niche, potentially locking yourself out of suggestion, shatter, alter self, blur, calm emotions, detect thoughts, cure moderate wounds, heroism, hold person, glitterdust, minor image, mirror image, and tongues except in the form of magic items which is another build resource you'll have to expend for those. Ok, sure, bard can win this one. I'll give that. But they're losing so much in opportunity cost that it's pretty ridiculous.

As for getting the feat from the totemist list, this is still superior to literally any other class taking the feat as Incarnates have the essentia to back up the choice to take those feats, as well as the binds to support it as well. Taking the shape soulmeld feat for pretty much any worthwhile soulmeld is never a bad idea. further, there is still only a single feat permanently invested on behalf of the Incarnate compared to a very substantial investment on the part of the bard.

Perception/Trapfinding

Incarnate's Keeneye Lenses and Truthseeker Goggles cover scouting stuff, and can get Trapfinding if required, through Theft Gloves.

Bards need to jump through hoops to get access to much trapfinding at all. In fact, I think the most direct way of getting trapfinding is by taking Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra, although they probably don't have the feats unless nobody else in the party is suited to it. They also have Listen but not Spot in-class, and are unlikely to have a good Wisdom modifier.

Incarnate wins

no comment on this except I don't think both keeneye and truthseeker can be taken at once, and I personally find search more important than spot when scouting ahead, though that can be taken from both directions. Either way, if the bard does decide to invest in these skills for some reason, that's another skill point per skill per level, so now you're potentially at either all of your skill points spoken for (disable device, search, listen, open lock...) so now you're down to bonus skill points from race or int which is likely, but is no longer a benefit of the class but a benefit of optimization choices. The incarnate, on the other hand, has no permanent investment other than the first feat in the first part of the comparison. This is a stronger win than you're letting on in my opinion.

Combat
Incarnate can deal 5d6 as a ranged touch attack or on a melee strike at level 6, which doesn't increase till 6d6 at level 11. If you're investing resources in it, you can double Acidic Spittle values with Share Soulmeld, but this often requires dipping.

Bard has a baseline of Inspire Courage +1, +2 at 8th, and doesn't reach +3 until 14th, which is underwhelming. This scales with party size, summons and similar effects, and has a lot of resources available for improving it - with a modicum of investment (masterwork instrument, badge of valor, inspirational boost) it reaches much more relevant values, and there's the option of going further with Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart and Words of Creation.

In terms of contribution to overall damage output, Incarnate is probably slightly ahead as a baseline, but Bard scales far better with system mastery and with resource investment.

Draw

Sorry, but "I make my allies deal +1/+2/+3 damage" is not the same as contributing to the combat. But let's investigate. With no feat investment at level 6, an incarnate can deal 3d6 damage per round simply by shaping either lightning gauntlets or dissolving spittle (max essentia by level 2, incarnate expanded essentia capacity +1). Those are against touch AC, so BAB isn't particularly an issue there. Then, as stated before, you can shape a soulspark familiar giving an additional 1d6+2+X (X=3 at this point because X is the number of essentia invested) and it has an effective range of 15 feet (10 feet for how far away the familiar can be, 5 feet for attack range) so there's 4d6+5 probable damage with no permanent investment using only class options (and not even particularly powerful ones). So, that's an average of 19 damage per round assuming 100% accuracy across 2 attacks (so unlikely, but not impossible considering the AC targeted and the attack bonus granted to the familiar).

Bard. You're getting some weapon damage and, if melee, strength bonus. Oh, and your +1 from inspire courage. Now you're on to investing permanent resources. Masterwork or better weapon/instrument, specific magic item, specific feat, alternate class features, and even with all of that, you're still doing what, +3 damage? +1d6? I'm not familiar with a lot of bard optimization, but it sounds to me like you're building very specifically and expending a lot of resources for that.

In terms of ending the combat sooner, how exactly is the bard equalizing the utter lack of damage output? I don't see this as a draw except when you factor in the rest of the party's contributions, which isn't a bonus to the bard it's more of a negative. The bard needs lots of others to maximize their contribution while the Incarnate doesn't. That doesn't mean the Bard isn't contributing, just that the incarnate is contributing more without investing any permanent resources.

Social

Incarnates can get +8-10 from soulmelds with little effort, and they get at-will Suggestion at level 14. With some cross-class skill ranks, they're probably looking at approximately +15 to a social skill they're focusing on by level 6, up to around +20 by level 11.

Bards have all the social skills on their class list, their primary attribute is Charisma, and they have a huge array of social spells on their list along with a variety of universal skill-boosting stuff. They hit similar values of around +15 at level 6 without major investment, but scale up more quickly than the Incarnate and can supplement with both spell options and bardic music, including Glibness.

Bard wins

Yes, bards are the socialites of the D&D world. They have Gather information, diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, all on their class list. So there go 4 more skill points per level (now at or possibly over the number granted by the class, relegating you to either high int and race choices or you've already used some of them) and you're locked in to those. Plus, "without major investment" is still investment of permanent resources that you must do and an incarnate does not. This incarnate has used one feat, that's all. keep that in mind. I don't know what "non-major investment" you're talking about, but I'm guissing it's skill points, magic items, and spells. You only have one level 2 spells left to pick, you don't have level 3 spells yet (and I can think of better bard spells than glibness to take), so you've got your level 1 and 0 spells to use. What do you pick up? charm person? that's 1/4 of your level 1 spells known and the DC is pretty easy to beat without investment (or is just useless because of spells, immunities, or not effecting the right creature type).

+8-+10 with no other investment, plus any charisma modifier... That's solid enough for most social encounters, especially since social encounters rarely have life or limb on the line. But sure, bards are better at the thing bards are geared towards, though it does cost them permanent build resources to do so.

Durability

Incarnates have Constitution as their primary attribute, a d6 hit die, medium armor proficiency, and can gain another +4-6 AC from soulmelds along with some save bonuses, and good Fort and Will saves. They also have access to Spellward Shirt and can actually get legitimiately useful amounts of SR out of it - 21 at 6th, up to 25 at 11th.

Bards lose some HP each hit die from not prioritising Con, and probably 5-8 AC from lack of medium armor and soulmelds, before spells. Base saves are also slightly lower (probably lower ability modifiers, but they keep two good saves and Savage Bard has the same Fort/Will). In exchange, Bards get the Cure spell line (and Healing Hymn), and can supplement personal resilience with effects like Mirror Image and Instant of Power.

Draw

So, you're going to use the savage bard ACF? well, now you can't take or use items of comprehend languages without it being a wondrous item, and you're illiterate and without read magic, so you can't use scrolls unless you invest 2 more skill points (you're starting to run low on skill points), and you've lost out on 2 skills that are more widely useful than survival (speak language is especially useful on a social bard). So, you've made your social schtick more difficult, increased the number of resources you need to use, and restricted your spells (removing some common and useful ones) to... give yourself good fort saves. That seems worthwhile i guess. But yes, build resources some more. You either need to spend money on cure wands or take the spell as a spell known. You can't supplement personal resilience with mirror image, you already took silence and invisibility so you can stealth better. That is, unless you want to give one of those up in order to moderately improve your survival. You're far more squishy with far fewer options available to you, and all of your options cost you permanent build resources. I can see maybe a stretch for a draw, but at the same time... I'm really not seeing a draw here. An incarnate is definitely more durable than a bard.

Utility

Incarnates have some other out of combat skills they can use - short range flight or teleportation, access to Use Magic Device, Detect Magic, minor minionmancy with Soulspark Familiar, and some on-demand immunities including disease and mind control. They have a reasonable selection of options for avoiding getting shut down by the enemy, but in terms of proactive options for resolving non-violent encounters and problems their only real options are skill checks.

Bards have a spell list with encounter ending powers on it of many forms, from Alter Self to Dispel Magic to Remove Curse to Silent Image. Even disregarding spellcasting, Bardic Knowledge brings a lot of utility, and noncombat skills are also something a Bard excels at.

Bard wins

No to alter self, you've used those spells known for silence, invisibility, or mirror image. That is, of course, unless you're spending more WBL for a wand of that too. You've spent a lot of money on a lot of magic items. Silent image is far from an encounter ender. Encounter preventer, maybe. Ender... how... Dispel magic doesn't come online until level 7, and even then you only get 2 3rd level spells with 0 castings per day innately. Otherwise, if you don't take the spell that's just more magic items you need to do what you claim bards are super good at. Bardic Knowledge is good stuff, to be sure. But, if you want the +2 synergy bonus, you'll be investing even more skill points (which you're running low on) in to knowledge. On top of that, Incarnates get knowledge skills too. I even think investing in them is probably the best thing incarnates can do with their class granted skill points because of how useful they are in general (and can't easily be covered with soulmelds like Spellcraft can). But... you've invested in hide, move silently, diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, (literacy I assume), knowledge (history)... you're over class granted skill points. If you throw in listen and cross class search.. you're pretty deep in the intelligence and race choice hole. What noncombat skills are you adding to that growing list of skill investments.

dispel magic just a magic item away, just like it is for the bard (unless you're using up more spells known). In fact, anything the bard can do by virtue of spells, an incarnate can feasibly do, and without permanent investment aside from money. But let's set that aside. What in the Bard's arsenal can be changed on the fly? What if you're party isn't dungeon delving or social encountering that day, but is rather just fighting? Incarnates can throw all of the skill choices above to the wind and focus entirely on combat damage and effectiveness. The next day, focus entirely on something new. Going on a ship? let me shape sailor's bracers and assist with sailing. Bard, did you invest in profession sailor? no... well, sing your song of encouragement and make me better at what I'm already competent doing. Oh, I know, maybe you can help calm the animals on board down. Wait... you don't have handle animal? Ok, well the incarnate has it so that's ok. Just keep singing your song. Quick, we're fighting undead. Bard use your magics to distract them! wait... you mean your spells don't effect mindless creatures and don't effect undead... uhm... ok it's a good thing I have armguards of disruption today, quick sing that song that makes me better at what I'm already competent at.

I don't think the day-to-day utility of the incarnate is being given a fair evaluation in your comparison. If anything, this is a draw or perhaps leaning towards the incarnate since very few resources have been expended to reach this point.

Overall, it looks to me like in terms of ability to be a 'jack of all trades', an Incarnate is able to mundanely contribute to most tasks, but has nowhere near the encounter-ending ability that a Bard has. A bard only needs to know Improvisation to be able to exceed the Incarnate's ability on most skill related challenges (when combined with their skill points) and then has a whole spell list full of ways to supernaturally bypass challenging tasks in addition to that. IMO there is a reasonable subset of problems which an Incarnate is not really capable of solving - mostly, those that are magic related. As far as skill checks go, while an Incarnate's ability to do most skills at ~+10 is nice, hiring two first level experts (4 ranks, skill focus, aid another) gets you a +9 (or more) modifier in whatever it is you need if that's required - replicating the effects of a spell list is far more difficult and costs a lot more money.

The thing is, how is a bard being an encounter ender when they're built the way you described building them, and if they're not, you're clearly sinking in a lot of money to replicate your own spell list. The magical subset of problems that an incarnate "can't solve" can only be solved if that particular bard has the particular spell on their particular spell's known list. Otherwise they need a magic item just like the Incarnate, so that's hardly a fair assessment of a bard's magical problem solving ability. Maybe one specific bard can solve that one specific problem, but can they solve all the others? unlikely. The thing is, the incarnate is able to do the things those two experts can do, then the next day do something different, and again the next day. And, the incarnate will be more likely to survive, not to mention this is not taking binds in to account. At high levels, incarnates get gate 1/week, something a bard never gets. That alone gives an incarnate high level punching power that bards never get. at every level of play, the incarnate can find some way to contribute something even if it has no feat or skills invested in doing anything at all. That can't be said for the bard because once a bard is locked in to something, they're locked in to it. I'm not talking about making bad feat and skill choices with an incarnate, I'm talking about literally not making ANY choices for those things and only shifting soulmeds and essentia. Sure, with no feats you lose hide/move silently. But as you already pointed out, invisibility and silence are spells and you know what an incarnate gets? UMD that can be throttled pretty well as a soulmeld. again, this is if you literally DON'T PICK FEATS, you can still contribute. That optimization floor is substantial and should absolutely be accounted for during tier assignment.

[Gauntlet]

The thing is, the Bard can choose to invest resources in any of stealth/social/combat/utility and utterly outclass the Incarnate in that department. But they don't have to.

Both the Bard and the Incarnate need to invest only a small number of resources to be reasonably good at stealth. For the incarnate, it's a feat. For the Bard, it's maybe a sixth of your base skill points (before int or race), and taking spells like Invisibility or Alter Self and Improvisation which are good choices in many other situations too. That leaves them even at early levels. Spending a spell known on Invis isn't exactly a waste even if you never need to infiltrate somewhere. Spells known are also a lot easier to get with money than feats are.

Then the Bard gets to add on top of that the fact that they have the option - if they want to - of being actually very good at stealth, by investing a whole 2 skill points per level in it and maybe one additional spell known.
Later on the Bard pulls far ahead, whether in skill points, the scaling of existing options, and the ability to bypass the problem entirely regardless of skill checks with magic.

So an incarnate can reasonably do 20 damage if all their attacks hit. A Bard who's considered combat only minimally - a single level 1 spell known and less than 25% of their WBL - gives themselves and their allies +4 to hit and damage, which is more impactful than the Incarnate in most parties, especially given that people at this point have iteratives, offhand attacks, and summoned allies. If they've actually invested relevant resources - like Song of the Heart or Dragonfire Inspiration - they can be giving the team +6 or more, or +6d6 on every attack. The reason I marked combat as draw is that Bard's baseline is maybe slightly behind Incarnate, but it scales far better with optimization and with allies. If you're considering solo encounters (why? D&D is not intended to be a solo game), I'm pretty sure a Hold Person into a CdG is better than anything an Incarnate does, if you're optimizing for solo play.

Durability - Incarnates have more raw numbers, yes. But Bards have far more ways of obviating the possibility of attacks at all, and improve the durability of the whole party rather than just themselves. At 6, an Incarnate has around 48 HP to the Bard's 30 or so, and a bit more AC, but a Bard can cast Invisibility. This only gets more skewed as levels increase because other than by being a big ball of hitpoints the Incarnate doesn't really get many ways to not get beaten up by the monster of the week, where the Bard gets more and more of them.

Regarding optimization floor, you're right that the Incarnate can contribute to most scenarios and not be completely worthless. But at the same time, their ceiling is just so low. Pretty much every class in tier 3 or above has ways of breaking the game wide open that don't require you to wait until absurdly high levels for your 1/week Gate to get there. Bards can obliterate social encounters, negate the need to make skill checks entirely, and bend reality to their will in a variety of ways. Even the lower end of T3 has stuff that does similar things - PsyRogues and Lurks gets Hustle to break the action economy and other similarly game-bending powers, while bringing a chassis that still has respectable numbers. An Incarnate has good numbers but just doesn't do anything to move beyond that - linear, head-on interaction with the game is in the tier 4 realm in my opinion.

[AnimeTheCat]

To outclass the incarnate, the bard HAS to choose to invest permanent resources in to that designated role. Regardless of the role. As for the improvisation spell, at level 20 you're getting +10 2 times per casting. That's what the level 7 incarnate is getting all day every check. So, comparing same level, you NEED skill investment to match the incarnate with 1 feat choice in that niche. Also, if you expand your spell list with magic items, then why can't the incarnate do the same? Now the incarnate has a wand of improvisation on top of skill checks. So unless you bard can literally do all of those things, can you really say it's doing all of those things better than the incarnate? I admit any one bard designated to do a specific task can do it better than the incarnate (with only 1 feat selected) can, but can that very same bard do all of the other things just as well as the bard? Does it matter if you beat the diplomacy DC by 2 or 20? No, because it's a flat DC. Does every bard grant +6d6 fire damage to allies, or just some? Because every incarnate can deal the damage presented in my earlier post, and with investment they can deal more.

The reason I considered solo is because this is a discussion of the classes alone, not parties. The same bard that took invisible, alter self, and improvisation can't also take hold person. They don't have enough spells known unless they dip further in to WBL.

So, with regards to durability, do ability damage reduction, energy resistance, immunity to mind effecting, concealment, ranged damage reduction, damage reduction, short distance teleportation, and spell resistance not count? Incarnates have more than just HP as defenses, and those can be changed day to day.

But in your last paragraph you said it yourself, "the Incarnate can contribute to most scenarios and not be completely worthless." That's literally the second definition of the tier. Competence isn't being the best, it's being able to do it, though not outstanding.

[Troacctid]

Is it? I've seen plenty of rating systems where being at the top of your class doesn't necessity belonging in the next higher class. I also don't believe that last clause is in the tier definitions, old or new.

Yes, it is. It's a straightforward ranking of power.

I agree with this too. For example, Troacctid, you definitely know how to pull off a Warlock that ends up Tier 3, but doesn't the Warlock have quite a low power floor due to the easy-to-fall-in trap of picking crappy Invocations? I've never played a Warlock, so I can't say for sure, but my gut feeling is that a Warlock screwed by an unaware player is going to end up worse than, say, a Warblade screwed by an unaware player. So far Warlock is ranked slightly below the means for Tier 3, which seems quite OK to my gut assessment, but if Warlock-proficient people come in and start voting en masse for Warlock as Tier 3, that might shift its ranking upwards in a way that is biased towards a higher optimization level that what is the case for other classes.

You might be surprised. Remember, if you're screwing up a warlock, you're also likely to screw up whatever other class you might be playing instead, and warlock is much more forgiving in that department than T4 classes are. I always point to the suggested builds in PH2 as examples—even at barebones optimization levels, the warlock in there is a competent support blaster, while the sample builds for rogues, rangers, barbarians, and fighters...uh...struggle.

Combat
Incarnate can deal 5d6 as a ranged touch attack or on a melee strike at level 6, which doesn't increase till 6d6 at level 11. If you're investing resources in it, you can double Acidic Spittle values with Share Soulmeld, but this often requires dipping.

Bard has a baseline of Inspire Courage +1, +2 at 8th, and doesn't reach +3 until 14th, which is underwhelming. This scales with party size, summons and similar effects, and has a lot of resources available for improving it - with a modicum of investment (masterwork instrument, badge of valor, inspirational boost) it reaches much more relevant values, and there's the option of going further with Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart and Words of Creation.

In terms of contribution to overall damage output, Incarnate is probably slightly ahead as a baseline, but Bard scales far better with system mastery and with resource investment.

Draw

Incarnate also has access to inspire courage +1, and as a swift action. Just saying.

Social

Incarnates can get +8-10 from soulmelds with little effort, and they get at-will Suggestion at level 14. With some cross-class skill ranks, they're probably looking at approximately +15 to a social skill they're focusing on by level 6, up to around +20 by level 11.

Bards have all the social skills on their class list, their primary attribute is Charisma, and they have a huge array of social spells on their list along with a variety of universal skill-boosting stuff. They hit similar values of around +15 at level 6 without major investment, but scale up more quickly than the Incarnate and can supplement with both spell options and bardic music, including Glibness.

Bard wins

In fairness, the number of classes that can outperform bards in this niche might be literally zero. They can out-face anyone, up to and including T1 casters.

Durability

Incarnates have Constitution as their primary attribute, a d6 hit die, medium armor proficiency, and can gain another +4-6 AC from soulmelds along with some save bonuses, and good Fort and Will saves. They also have access to Spellward Shirt and can actually get legitimiately useful amounts of SR out of it - 21 at 6th, up to 25 at 11th.

Bards lose some HP each hit die from not prioritising Con, and probably 5-8 AC from lack of medium armor and soulmelds, before spells. Base saves are also slightly lower (probably lower ability modifiers, but they keep two good saves and Savage Bard has the same Fort/Will). In exchange, Bards get the Cure spell line (and Healing Hymn), and can supplement personal resilience with effects like Mirror Image and Instant of Power.

Draw

Really, you mention Spellward Shirt but not Vitality Belt or Astral Vambraces? Incarnates can just decide to have bigger hit dice whenever they want. They can also get energy resistance as well as immunity to compulsions, ability damage, and negative levels. That's on top of evil incarnates getting zombie meatshields. Incarnates are very good at being tanky. Your defense strategy as a bard is casting mirror image as a standard action and calling it good?

[Gauntlet]

Improvisation gives bonuses 4 times per casting.

You need skill investment to be good at things, yes - but you get skills. You get enough skills and spells to be relevant and useful at pretty much every role in a party. Improvisation gives you four bonuses, not two.

And every incarnate can do the things you mentioned, but not every day. You have to pick which soulmelds you shape each day, too - and even if you get to reshape a couple, and you have several, you still can't change your chakras or your expanded soulmeld capacity choice.

The bard interacts with magic items more positively than the Incarnate. Yes, you can get UMD, but you need to shape it every day if you want to invest into items, which is a non insignifiant cost. It also permanently eats your Brow chakra. Bards don't have to roll for their stuff, but more importantly they can use items in ways an Incarnate can't, because they benefit from items like Runestaffs which actually require you to be a spellcaster in the first place. Their spell list is also very good and well supported in supplements.

This is a discussion of the classes alone, but it's also a discussion of how they fit into the D&D game. The standard premise of the D&D game is that you are a member of a party of characters, not that you're a solo character.

Incarnate defenses still amount to numbers most of the time. They have a solid amount of SR, which is handy, and they can resist everything somewhat, but they are still restricted to mitigating enemy action rather than ignoring it, which is just categorically weaker in 3.5.

'Not completely worthless' doesn't mean 'Average'.

[zfs]

When the tiers "settle," somebody has to end up as the tallest midget. There will be a class that is at the top of Tier 4, and maybe most of us think it's better than every other Tier 4 class, but not enough people thought it was better than any Tier 3 classes.

[Buufreak]

Yes, it is. It's a straightforward ranking of power.

Would you be kind enough to cite that? I just reread the definitions, as well as the over arching purpose and explanation of the tiers, and I didn't find anything that says being the top of class in a tier group necessitates being in the next higher tier. Because, let's be honest, that thought pattern is cyclical and backward, don't you think? If something is at the top of its class, which justifies moving up, then it is now at the bottom of the next. Meanwhile, what was once second dog is now the top, which means it then, too, gets to move up. See the problem?

[AnimeTheCat]

Improvisation gives bonuses 4 times per casting.

You need skill investment to be good at things, yes - but you get skills. You get enough skills and spells to be relevant and useful at pretty much every role in a party. Improvisation gives you four bonuses, not two.

I did bad math. If x=caster level 2x does not equal 2(.5×). It does, in fact, equal 4(.5×). Whoops lol, so still a spell every 4 skill checks is distinctly less good than +8 or +10 without any investment on a wide range of skills.

And every incarnate can do the things you mentioned, but not every day. You have to pick which soulmelds you shape each day, too - and even if you get to reshape a couple, and you have several, you still can't change your chakras or your expanded soulmeld capacity choice.

Sure, not every day, but the next day it can. And you're unlikely to pick soulmelds that cover things already covered by other party members which leads in to the next couple of points.

The bard interacts with magic items more positively than the Incarnate. Yes, you can get UMD, but you need to shape it every day if you want to invest into items, which is a non insignifiant cost. It also permanently eats your Brow chakra. Bards don't have to roll for their stuff, but more importantly they can use items in ways an Incarnate can't, because they benefit from items like Runestaffs which actually require you to be a spellcaster in the first place. Their spell list is also very good and well supported in supplements.

This is a discussion of the classes alone, but it's also a discussion of how they fit into the D&D game. The standard premise of the D&D game is that you are a member of a party of characters, not that you're a solo character.

You're right, bards do interact (marginally) better with magic items, but to do all the things they do NEED them. An incarnate needs 8 hours to completely change gears. Also, you're also right, this isn't a single player game. In the party, the incarnate can flex to fit any missing role with above average proficiency, yet still maintain that flexibility from day to day.

Incarnate defenses still amount to numbers most of the time. They have a solid amount of SR, which is handy, and they can resist everything somewhat, but they are still restricted to mitigating enemy action rather than ignoring it, which is just categorically weaker in 3.5.

Uhm... miss chance 24/7 is categorically in the "ignoring" damage camp as is DR and SR. Though, in what way does th eff bard ignore damage? Is it another permanent spell know choice or is it perhaps a magic item that an incarnate can use too?

'Not completely worthless' doesn't mean 'Average'.

Being slightly worse than a character dedicating lots of resources when you've invested little or none is not what I would call below average. Additional optimization can be done and the blank slate incarnate has the build resources to do so. I've been using an incarnate with only one feat selected as my subject of comparison. No skill points invested, no wealth spent, etc. Day to day resources are renewable, just like for wizards, druids, and clerics. Not arguing incarnates are T1, because that's a no beainer (of course they are, this T3 discussing is laughable... just kidding, hope that read as sarcastic).