Results 181 to 210 of 438
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2019-10-23, 05:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
The point is a class only needs to be as good as or better than the classes below it, and as bad as or worse than the classes below it. "It's better than every single T4 class" is a perfectly good reason to put a class in T3. "It's worse than every single T3 class" is also a perfectly good reason to put a class in T4. When both statements are true, that's where we get our borderline cases.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2019-10-23, 10:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Montreal, Canada
Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
Though I already voted in the original threads, there's 2 classes I'd like to argue about again: the Urban Druid and the Wilder
First, I did the urban druid hanbook which you can find here
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...Druid-Handbook
and I'd like to point out a few things about it
The Urban Druid's spell list is truly excellent (even without sanctified spells) and should warrant a tier 1 status right off the bat IMO
Just compare the Death Master's list to the Urban Druid's, the Urban Druid has something better to cast at just any level
Now add the wildshape features and the fact that you can cast in some armors
On top of it you get a fairly powerful pet
As for the wilder, the issue is not so much the class features, honestly wilder class features are rather terrible except for the d6 hitpoint, x4 skillpoints and CHA based manifesting.
No the ability comes from the powers
Since powers augment super well, you have far more versatility with a single power than any vancian caster has with a low level spell
astral construct is essentially summon monster 1-9 in 1 spell
dominate and or Charm person is similarly versatile (you can augment it to affect a specific type of creature while boosting it's DC while a spell needs to be the adequate spell for every situation)
And a single blasting power can cover all your blasting needs
Finally the dispel power covers all your counterspelling requirements and metamorphosis covers all your other basics
Is your power list limited? Absolutely
Are your powers awesome anyway? Absolutely
If you compare a sorcerer to a wilder
Same casting stat
Better hitpoints
Better skillpoints
Less powers that do more
Ability to cast in armor with shield
Better BAB
Better combat abilities
Now compare the spellcasting:
Delayed spellcasting is not much of an issue due to augmentable powers, your best powers are mostly lower level anyway
Good lower level spells in the vancian system largely become irrelevant at some point. Some spells will maintain a niche status of usefulness but, once they're at that point, magic items often replace them altogether. So while the sorcerer looks more versatile on paper, he's actually not as good in reality
Good Psionic powers, on the other hand, are always relevant. Astral construct is just as useful at the earlier levels than it is at later levels. Metamorphosis, Charm and Dominate remains useful throughout the game too.
Finally being able to break the manifester level early is extremely useful with certain powers: Charm is an ok power at 1 PP
but once you reach 5 PP you can make it last 1 day per caster level.
So a level 3 wilder can augment it to 5 (using a surge) and Charm a character for 3 days and, due to the increased PP the DC of the power goes up by 2.
Try to do something like that with a sorcerer.
Sure, you might get unlucky on your surge but you're probably outside combat anyway so it doesn't matter. Any NPC you encounter by level 3 becomes a potential permanent ally that you only need to brainwash every 3 days.
In the same vein, your astral constructs are both stronger and more durable than any similar summon monster spell cast by a sorcerer.
Can a wilder break the game? Definitely
Does a wilder have multiple ways to break the game? Defintely
The only true advantage a sorcerer has over a wilder is that he has more splat support but, unlike a wilder that uses expanded knowledge, he has no core way to cherry pick the best spells or powers from other classes.
Finally that 3/4 BAB and d6 hitpoint seems irrelevant until you start using metamorphosis
So, all in all, a wilder is
a thing (that could be a bear) through metamorphosis
that summons a thing (again, you could shape it like a bear) through astral construct
while riding a thing (psicrystals can get insane through metamorphosis)
after sending another thing (whatever you charmed or dominated) ahead
I don't see how that's tier 3
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2019-10-23, 10:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2018
Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
If you look at my boundaries using 5/6 steps instead of 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, 4.5, and 5.5 as boundaries, but 1.83, 2.66, 3.5, 4.33, and 5.16 as the boundaries instead, then ...
Urban Druid is the weakest Tier 1.
Wilder is the weakest Tier 2.
Tier 1
Cleric: 1
Druid: 1
Sha’ir: 1
Shaman: 1.03
Archivist: 1.06
Wizard: 1.11
Artificer: 1.18
Wu Jen: 1.19
Spontaneous Druid: 1.31
Death Master: 1.55
Generic Spellcaster: 1.66
Spontaneous Cleric: 1.74
Erudite: 1.78
Psion: 1.78
Sorcerer: 1.8
Urban Druid: 1.83
Tier 2
Spirit Shaman: 1.87
Evangelist: 1.88
Mystic: 2
Ardent: 2.2
Dread Necromancer: 2.2
Beguiler: 2.22
Favored Soul: 2.24
Mystic Ranger: 2.51
Wilder: 2.63
Tier 3
Shugenja: 2.83
Bard: 2.92
Trickster Spellthief: 2.95
Jester: 3.07
Totemist: 3.08
Swordsage: 3.09
Warlock: 3.16
Crusader: 3.17
Binder: 3.18
Psychic Warrior: 3.19
Warmage: 3.2
Warblade: 3.26
Dragonfire Adept: 3.28
Healer: 3.31
Wild Shape Ranger: 3.31
Duskblade: 3.34
Factotum: 3.36
Lurk: 3.4
Psychic Rogue: 3.4
Tier 4
Wild Monk: 3.51
Incarnate: 3.58
Shadowcaster: 3.82
Rogue: 3.85
Barbarian: 4
Generic Expert: 4
Generic Warrior: 4
Scout: 4.08
Adept: 4.13
Spellthief: 4.13
Paladin: 4.18
Ranger: 4.19
Tier 5
Ninja: 4.36
Savant: 4.37
Fighter: 4.48
Marshal: 4.52
Sohei: 4.53
Truenamer: 4.59
Hexblade: 4.69
Monk: 4.7
Battle Dancer: 4.73
Divine Mind: 4.75
Mountebank: 4.84
Samurai: 4.85
Dragon Shaman: 4.86
Magewright: 4.94
Swashbuckler: 4.98
Knight: 5.02
Soulborn: 5.05
Noble: 5.05
Tier 6
Soulknife: 5.22
Samurai: 5.27
Expert: 5.34
Aristocrat: 5.76
Warrior: 5.8
Commoner: 6Level Point System 5E
Poker Roll
Tier 1 Master of All
Tier 2 Lightning Bruiser
Tier 3 Lethal Joke Character
Tier 4 Master of None
Tier 5 Crippling Overspecialization
Tier 6 Joke Character
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2019-10-23, 10:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-10-24, 12:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
Sorcerers have a better spell list and like 4x as many spells known. Heck, you just rattled off a bunch of powers that aren't even on the wilder's list!
I'll issue the wilder fans here the same challenge I gave in the original thread: show me the set of wilder powers that can outperform a warmage, bard, or warlock, given similar feat selection and itemization.Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2019-10-24, 12:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
Did I not vote on NPC Expert? Put me down as Tier 6. They don't have skill-boosting class features, or class features that give new uses for skills. Even Soulborn get access to several skill-boosting melds and Dragon Shamans get built-in Skill Focus. While Experts have the flexibility to choose skill combinations that aren't usually in-class together, there are a bunch of skills where they simply get shown up by various Tier 5s.
The gnomes once had many mines, but now they have gnome ore.
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2019-10-24, 02:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
I'm not a big wilder expert, but I'll point out that Bend Reality, Reality Revision, and Psychic Reformation are all wilder powers.
That means they get native access to Wish equivalent powers and the kinds of shenanigans that can spawn, especially since Erudite spell to power is a thing.
They also get native access to the ability to rewrite most of their character sheet every day, if they really want or need to. Multiple times in the same day even, though I'd say that somebody actually using PsyRef on themselves multiple times in the same day tends to suggest that something is going rather poorly.
That's enough, IMO, to get them into T2, and arguably there's a case for lower T1.
They can actually pull off being a Schrodinger's type build with only their native access and without needing to do anything special or questionable or cheesy. It's a touch heavy on XP, perhaps, but entirely doable.
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2019-10-24, 02:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2019-10-24, 02:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
That would be better, but its still short listen, but having the soulspark compensates for this, but it has issues with needing to move away and come back, and then communicating with you.
About the skillful weapon enhancement, I only brought that up because you can just buy BAB. And Incarnates don't need it if they don't want to (dissolving spittle or lightening gauntlets can have you covered). I was just bringing it up because complaining about BAB mattering for a classes tier is an outdated thought. BAB is nice and helpful at some levels, but the obsession over it really needs to die. Incarnates are by far super chill with their gear. They're not gear independent like tier 1 & 2's are, but they are by far able to work with less optimal gear then any of the other tier 4 classes (besides maybe shadowcasters, but that class just has a leveling issue at the levels that matter the most that holds it back).
The belt/boots that gave haste as a free action would have the same effect as the skillful weapon and is in core and is more in the price range.
I do agree that Bard > Incarnate. Incarnate are definitely on the worse side tier 3 in my opinion, but I don't feel that you can have the Incarnate and the Totemist in different tiers because when you get down to it, they are quite similar.
The bard is pretty good at mindaffecting effects with its bardic music. It can also be very good at buffing.
Dragon Shamans and soulborns have 2 skill points a level and doesn't have the skill list to do any role and its skill focus/soulmelds aren't going to change that.
One of the definitions for tier 5 isClasses here are sometimes very good at solving nearly no problems, or alright at solving a few, or some other function thereof
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2019-10-24, 03:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
Metamorphosis and astral construct are not in-class. A lot of the good stuff isn't. Wilder's class features do improve some uses of stuff from outside the class, so there's that ... but you can't even take a single instance of Expanded Knowledge until level 6! (At 3rd level, you don't have 2nd-level powers yet, so you can't learn a 1st-level.)
The wilder can, with careful and non-class power selection, address a lot of problems, starting around level 6-8. Address, not solve -- an astral construct doesn't wipe a fight by itself, a strong dispel will help your friends but not end a problem by itself, an attempt at charming someone could backfire when they make their save and even charmed people aren't an answer to all problems, it's possible to run out of power points, your defenses are far from stellar ... By the late game wilder's had the chance to pick up enough non-class powers that it can contribute well in most situations. But not in the sweet spot, and very not at low levels.
@javcs, having to spend XP to perform up to par hides the weakness but doesn't erase it. And a wilder with bend reality is a wilder without mind blank or greater teleport or whatever else fits their build/character. It's horrible how few powers you can get without cheese or burning XP.
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2019-10-24, 06:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
The tiers aren't about any one specific build.
They're more about the averaged net potential of possible builds for an equally applied degree of moderate practical OP fu. Over a full 20 levels.
The tiers are not strictly linear. Nor does the bottom of one automatically map to where the top of the next, or vice versa. And higher levels of optimization in specific builds can move that build into being comparable to lower optimization builds in the next tier up.
--
Sure, needing to spend XP on rewriting your character sheet is worse than just needing to prepare a different set of spells.
On the other hand, it is, objectively speaking, not all that much XP per instance of rewriting your sheet, and XP is a river, so they say. And, realistically speaking, you aren't going to be redoing everything very often, and will usually only need to change out one or two powers known at any given time.
In addition, the built in ability to do that as often as you're willing to spend XP is vastly superior to the inability to do so.
And, sure, an item would probably be cheaper in the long run, but if you've got a long enough stretch of downtime, you can PsyRef yourself into a crafter, and make yourself an item of it - and how far back you can go isn't locked by manifester level, but by how much XP you're willing to spend, and going back 20 levels is only 1000 XP split between manifester and subject, so you can future proof it without much difficulty - and then when downtime is over, you can PsyRef yourself back to an adventuring or other version of your sheet.
Wilder absolutely has a crappy floor. On the other hand, they have a respectably high ceiling, and the native ability to rebuild and go from the bottom of their potential to near the top of it - with just one power that's on their class list. That's not some insignificant detail to ignore. It takes no real skill at optimization or splat diving. It's just there.
The psion/wilder list is pretty decent.
At any given time, the wilder is lower T2, but has the potential to be flexible in ways that T2s normally aren't and T1s naturally are.
The wilder is a bit of a screwy edge case.
But can you really justify native access to Reality Revision and PsyRef as T3 or worse? No need for ACFs, PRCs, splat-searching, or any kind of list expansion, just default access.
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2019-10-24, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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- Paris
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
You'll maybe remember I'd provided such a power list, back in the old thread. Gimme a minute and I'll paste it here.
EDIT: actually there were a crapton of power sets that were offered for that purpose. What they were doing, however, was to be able not to outperform a given warmage, bard or warlock but to be on par with said three classes all at the same time. Saying that a given class manages to more or less replicates three Tier 3 classes at the same time amounts to arguing for a degree of versatility on par with what Tier 2 (or at least, high Tier 3) can perform.
We had:
Now of course it's more like these power lists allow (arguably) the Wilder to hold his own against a Warblade, a Bard and a Warmage at the same time, not really being just as effective as them all. It's still quite an accomplishment. A Psion (inarguably Tier 2) could do much the same, burning extra powers on Charm Person to make up for the lack of social skills, but still coming out on top. So the Wilder is weaker than the Psion, but by how much?
Now, trying to build a Wilder that outright outperforms either a Warlock, a Warmage or a Bard at equal optimization levels...hmm. First, I think there's no way the Wilder is ever going to beat the Bard as far as party buffing goes. Psionics plain suck for that purpose. But beating the Bard at all the other things it excels at? Namely, information retrieval, being a face? I guess that can be done. Pick Psionic Charm Person, and you'v got Persisted Charm Person, Charm Monster all rolled up in one. Also pick Psionic Dominate when the time comes for it through Expanded Knowledge. Psionic Divination and Object Reading cover a lot as far as intel gathering is concerned (you can pick Metafaculty through Expanded Knowledge for the ultimate info gathering power at high levels). Wilders have the same social skills as Bards.
Beating a Warlock at his schtick...well I guess it depends on which Invocations the Warlock picks. Given Wild Surge, the fact they're pretty SAD and their huge pool of power points, Wilders can usually use their powers quite carefree, so I'd surmise they can to an extent replicate the at-will asset the Warlocks have...and then maybe for each Invocation, there's a power to match it?
When it comes to Warmages...Wilders are able to pick whatever energy type they choose when they manifest a direct damage power, which is a huge compression tool that somewhat offsets the sheer number of spells of various elements the Warmages get. Wild Surge once again allows them to break ahead when it comes to dice, as they can break the "1d6/character level" cap. A Wilder could pick Psionic Grease, Energy Stun, Psionic Disintegrate, Ectoplasmic Wall, Control Sound, Telekinetic Force, Energy Wave...
Tell you what, my gut feeling is that the Wilder can not come head and shoulders above any of these three when trying to replicate what they can do (except maybe the Warlock), but can definitely be just as good. At the end of the day, I'm advocation for high Tier 3, rather than Tier 2, but definitely higher than, say, a Binder.
Actually, I kind of disagree here. See, I'm in an ongoing PF campaign where I play a Dreamscarred Press Wilder (just reached level 6), and I've specifically picked all the options and archetypes and stuff to make it match the 3.5 Educated Wilder as much as possible (thanks to Educated ACF, the 3.5 Wilder ends up with roughly the same amount of feats the PF Wilder does). My Wilder is actually extremely powerful at what she does, and I'm refraining myself a little from going all out so as not to overshadow the Monk, Paladin, Rogue and Bloodrager in the party. It all boils down to two reasons.
1. I've picked Obtain Psycristal as a feat, and that nets me a ton of scouting abilities, quite better than what the Rogue can do actually. That's because contrary to Familiars, Psicrystals can have a real, detailed, spoken telepathic conversation with their master, not a mere empathic link. I'm actually refraining from having it pop everywhere and anywhere. That's something any Psionic class can boast, not only the Wilder, sure, but it seems to me a big share of Wilders across all optimization levels will pick that feat. Optimizers because it's so powerful, non-optimizers because it allows them to match the fluff of the Familiar-owning Sorcerer.
2. I've picked Energy Stun as my 2nd-level power known. Thanks to Wild Surge, at level 5 I could pump it to ML 7, augmenting by 4 power points. That meant it dealt 1+4 = 5d6 points of elemental damage (of any type I wanted) to two ennemies per turn (given the 5ft-radius effect), prompting a (Fort of Ref depending on the chosen element) save DC of 20 (10+2 (2nd level power) +1 (Cloak of Charisma) + 4 (Starting Cha 18) +1 (Lesser Aasimar) +2 (augmented by 2 points 2 times)) for half damage, and then again a Will save DC of 20 vs stun. Picking Electricity as the damage type, the saves are increased by 2. Meaning the monsters have to make a Ref save DC 22, and then a Will save DC 22. At level 5, extremely few monsters can pull of such a high save DC. This power was so devastating I was afraid the DM would nerf it. And I had enough power points to cast it at max ML about 8 times a day. I didn't need it though, because Stunned monsters were dispatched by my teammates. And it's a regular Wilder power, not one I got through Expanded Knowledge or anything.
Bonus. In addition, Wilders are Cha-based, have a lot of skill points with nothing much to do with them, and all the social skills. Meaning my Wilder is the party face with maxed out Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive and Gather Information, more or less by default. Once again, I'd assume a wide range of Wilders out there would invest their skill points in such a manner, even the subpar, non-optimized ones, given there's not much else a Wilder can use their skill points for.
So my character is very good at social interaction, combat, and exploration. And it's not yet the uber-duper optimized character. My other powers are Vigor and Entangling Ectoplasm, but they actually could be quite anything else, including crappy useless choices, because Wild Surge-boosted Energy Stun alone is enough to do the job. All in all, my Wilder could still be the MVP of the party with all but crappy, useless choices apart from that 1 feat and that 1 power. Remove one, the other still allows the Wilder to be very competent at either Scouting and Social, or Combat and Social. Meaning it actually amounts to quite a broad range of optimization level, it's not confined to super-optimized Wilders.
Automatically being an awesome face actually raises the floor of Wilders quite a little, as well as the happenstance of picking at least 1 good power in the whole lot, given how much miileage one can get out of 1good psionic power.
All of that is only true for level range 1-5, though, I have no experience at higher levels so I couldn't tell. But as far as low levels are concerned, I feel like my Wilder, and by extent a quite broad range of Wilders out there, can contribute to the party in a way that's certainly at least as varied or at least as effective as a Sorcerer. All in all my take is that Wilder certainly is one of the best Tier 3 out there, or maybe one of the worst Tier 2.
I had voted for Wilder 2.5, and I stand by that assessment. I'm quite pleased with the Wilder actually standing at the top of Tier 3.Last edited by remetagross; 2019-10-24 at 08:11 AM.
VC XV, The horsemen are drawing nearer: The Alien and the Omen (part 1 and part 2).
VC XVI, Burn baby burn:Nero
VC XVIII, This is Heresy! Torquemada
VC XX, Elder Evil: Henry Bowyer
And a repository of deliciously absurd sentences produced by maddened optimisers in my extended signature
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2019-10-24, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
I respect practice over theory, so I appreciate that. But:
That's how I would've voted, anyway, based on averaging it out over the whole levels-1-to-20 range. It's got potentially better tools than most Tier 3s but clear weak points compared to most Tier 2s.
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2019-10-26, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
Not to sound stupid, but could someone explain why the beguiler's lack of 5th+ level spells that do anything to enemies who are immune to mind affecting doesn't hold it back from reaching tier 2? Particularly in regards to the common claim that it's better than an equal leveled sorcerer, who is just as capable of using thinks like runestaves and UMD, and indeed might well be better at it given that UMD keys off of charisma and isn't needed for anything on the sorcerer spell list. Can you really expand your spell list adequately without PrCs?
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2019-10-26, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
1. Sorcerer doesn’t get UMD in class, and is really starved for skill points in general. Especially for knowledges if it wants to use powerhouse abilities like polymorph or planar binding. Beguiler has it in class and points to spend on it. The heavy UMD advantage lies with beguiler.
2. Beguiler has access to spells like shadow evocation, shadow conjuration and ice assassin via advanced learning which work fine against mind immune.
3. List enhancing methods like arcane disciple work better for beguiler than sorcerer.
4. Immune to mind affecting doesn’t make you immune to illusions. Or to dominated minions. Or even glibness.
5. Beguiler is a fully functional skill monkey on top of being a darn good caster. It’s likely to outperform a sorcerer at information gathering, hiding, trapfinding, knowledges, and social encounters, even with the Sorcerers charisma bonus. As an Int caster it probably has more skill points than any other class except factotum.
6. Beguiler is at its greatest advantage versus sorcerer in the levels that commonly see play. Sorcerer has its advantage in levels that don’t.
And for what it’s worth it has a better variety of list expanding classes and the free feats and extra skills often make qualifying for prcs easier.Last edited by Gnaeus; 2019-10-26 at 08:27 PM.
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2019-10-26, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
Beguilers get dominate person at 5th level, so they can just dominate one dude, haste him up, and have him deal with the mindless dudes for them. What spells are the sorcerers taking that are better than dominate person anyway? Overland flight? Teleport? Those don't deal with mindless enemies any better. Shadow evocation? Beguilers can get it too at level 11. Wall of force? It's not that much better than solid fog. Arcane fusion? Now you're relying on your lower-level spells against them just like the beguiler is.
Last edited by Troacctid; 2019-10-26 at 09:30 PM.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2019-10-26, 09:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
For the Sorcerer, there are personal attack (Polymorph, Shapechange), bypass (dimension door, greater teleport, etc...), and more robust/earlier minions (Planar Binding, Necrotic Domination/Tumor).
For the Beguiler, there is Song of the Dead, which allows it to directly affect a big class of otherwise immune to mind-affecting.Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2019-10-26, 11:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
One issue with dominate person is that magic circle hedges your control out
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2019-10-26, 11:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
"Movement speed is the most important statistic in this game."
"Give them no mercy for they give no mercy to us."
"I see one of those I kill it!"
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2019-10-27, 12:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-10-27, 12:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2016
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- No Longer The Frostfell
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2019-10-27, 09:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Atlanta, Georgia
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
A little like a bard. Except a bard 10 has a total of 6 spells known between levels 3-5, and can cast 3-5 of them a day. A beguiler has a total of 42 spells known (before doing anything to enhance his list, because DFI and wardance from the bard means I’m rocking domains or other list tricks) between 3 and 5. And can cast 15-18 per day. The bard could very well take haste, slow, glibness, dispel magic, greater invisibility and dominate person. That’s not a bad mix of offense, defense, crowd control and utility. The beguiler gets all those +36 more and can cast 3 times more often.
And while the bard (unlike the sorcerer) is probably a little better on his UMD check than is beguiler, beguiler has the high level slots to use on things like runestaves.Last edited by Gnaeus; 2019-10-27 at 09:33 AM.
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2019-10-29, 01:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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- Frozen City
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
I mean, I'd probably have most of those spells on items or just not use them because of limited actions in a day and save my spells per day for spells that actually scale with caster level. What are you spending your feats on if "list tricks" aren't on the table or if a runestaff costs your character too much wealth to obtain?
"Movement speed is the most important statistic in this game."
"Give them no mercy for they give no mercy to us."
"I see one of those I kill it!"
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2019-10-29, 03:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
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- California
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
All these votes have been recorded. Marshal and sohei have now moved up into T4, and mystic ranger has moved up into T2.
Last edited by Troacctid; 2019-10-29 at 03:11 AM.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2019-10-29, 04:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2015
- Location
- Paris
- Gender
Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
Here is some signifcant change! I'm glad for the poor Sohei: not that I have the first clue as to how this class behaves in play, but it warms my heart to see some others do, and give it a tad more attention than what it got back in the original thread. Seems a fairer deal to them for me.
VC XV, The horsemen are drawing nearer: The Alien and the Omen (part 1 and part 2).
VC XVI, Burn baby burn:Nero
VC XVIII, This is Heresy! Torquemada
VC XX, Elder Evil: Henry Bowyer
And a repository of deliciously absurd sentences produced by maddened optimisers in my extended signature
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2019-10-29, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2019
Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
Troacctid, did you miss my vote for Truenamer to be Tier 4?
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2019-10-29, 07:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Atlanta, Georgia
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
What are you spending yours on if DFI and Wardance aren’t? I’ve seen a lot more games allow CDiv than Dragon Magic and Frostburn. But otherwise many of the same feats you would get for any caster/skill monkey. Darkstalker. Acquire familiar/improved familiar. Crafting feats. Metamagic reducers. Prerequisites for PRC access. Leadership if allowed. Bloodline feats. Accelerate metamagic. I’m not worried about finding good feats to fill my slots
So you are getting haste and greater invisibility on items eh? Cool, cool. I assume you aren’t getting slow or dominate on items, since they’re save dependent. Since you are assuming magic mart (Not a good assumption), I guess I’ll just get items of polymorph and shivering touch for the same cost. Or my raiment of the 4 for fireball, magic missile and teleport. The more effort you put into copying stuff I do for free the more effort I can put into developing powers that aren’t on either list.Last edited by Gnaeus; 2019-10-29 at 09:15 AM.
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2019-10-29, 08:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2018
Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
I'm glad to see Sohei in Tier 4 - especially since it's probably exactly where I'd put it if I could finagle these rankings manually (the tiniest hair's breadth ahead of Fighter). Though as I said before, more than anything, what I wanted was for Sohei to just get more discussion, because it got such a cursory glance on first pass, and one of its best shticks (Sanctified Spells) wasn't even touched upon. If more discussion leads it back to Tier 5, I won't begrudge that, because I'll feel that it did at least get a fair shake.
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2019-10-29, 08:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2015
- Location
- Paris
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Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
VC XV, The horsemen are drawing nearer: The Alien and the Omen (part 1 and part 2).
VC XVI, Burn baby burn:Nero
VC XVIII, This is Heresy! Torquemada
VC XX, Elder Evil: Henry Bowyer
And a repository of deliciously absurd sentences produced by maddened optimisers in my extended signature
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2019-10-29, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
- Location
- California
- Gender
Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar