Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 146
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Titan in the Playground
     
    The_Snark's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2006

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Yeah, this. Tychus has the heightest floor of the commanders, even if you take the worst of his mercs he is pretty decent.

    I believe the heighest ceiling are kerrigan and Vorazun based on guides. Watching a good Kerrigan player makes me feel like a scrub.
    I think Tychus also benefits a lot from how the economy works in co-op - most people end up with tons of minerals (and sometimes vespene) going spare, because they're at their supply cap and can only research upgrades so fast (or they run out). Tychus, on the other hand, has a ton of very expensive instant upgrades.

    I've no idea who the best is, but Kerrigan is definitely high-variance. The hero unit can do ridiculous things if used right, but if you mess up she dies really fast.
    Last edited by The_Snark; 2019-10-29 at 06:30 PM.
    Avatar by GryffonDurime. Thanks!

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Yeah, this. Tychus has the heightest floor of the commanders, even if you take the worst of his mercs he is pretty decent.

    I believe the heighest ceiling are kerrigan and Vorazun based on guides. Watching a good Kerrigan player makes me feel like a scrub.
    Abathur has the official record for most mutations run solo on brutal (solo in this case meaning with an ally who quits at the beginning and who has no passive benefits), so by that metric, he has the highest peak power.
    ďEvil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.Ē

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Abathur has the official record for most mutations run solo on brutal (solo in this case meaning with an ally who quits at the beginning and who has no passive benefits), so by that metric, he has the highest peak power.
    I can see that, the army that gets progressively better as you kill things has a pretty high top end.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    To reiterate, because I'm not sure my point is getting through - I don't think Nova needs to be as powerful as Tychus. (I don't really think she can be, given the inherent advantages hero units get in this game, and the fact that Tychus gets 5 heroes to her 1, with 5 tiers of upgrades to boot.) But I think her abilities are not on par with multiple commanders, not just Tychus.

    The cooldown on Nova's nuke is 420 seconds. That's considerably longer than the following:

    - Swann's Pulse Cannon
    - Artanis' Solar Bombardment
    - H&H's Space Station
    - Alarak's Death Fleet
    - each of Dehaka's summons
    - Zeratul's Avatar
    - Stukov's Aleksander
    - And yes, the Odin

    This to me is patently absurd, especially given her nuke gets additional limitations all of these lack: she needs to be present to manually aim it, you lose the ability to control her until it goes off, it has a much longer windup time than anything else I've listed, and it's lost if she's killed before it fires. And even dumping all her mastery points into the cooldown, it still comes out longer than any of these, and that's before they spend their own mastery.

    It's not the only ability she has that's behind the curve, but it's an easily comparable example. Ever since co-op difficulty was buffed, with Amon's forces getting upgrades of their own, her more fragile key units like Ravens need a lot more micro to keep alive. I genuinely think a buff wouldn't be amiss here.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    I don't disagree about Nova. The first time my friend played Zeratul he literally said "oh, its like if Nova was good."

    (Our gaming group is a cliche. I'm always wave/swarm factions, he is the pretty guys, my brother is the melee group, our forth one is the artillery only guy.)

    I don't play Nova enough to know what to fix, nuke timer seems fine. I just think Tychus is an outlier commander. If H&H is playing Warcraft II and Kerrigan is playing Warcraft III, Tychus is over there playing DOTA.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    My suggestions for her; not saying all of these would be needed but I definitely wouldn't mind some.

    - Lower her Nuke cooldown to 300s (or 360 and nerf the mastery to 60) in line with the other commanders' area-denial specials. That gives her a decent way to handle attack waves or push into an enemy base under time pressure. Alternatively, give her a top-bar ability that instantly refreshes all her cooldowns for an emergency, and make that expensive with a long cooldown.

    - Her Holo Decoy should at least be pseudo-controllable, similar to Zeratul's Legion calldown. (i.e. you can't actually select and move it, but you can tell it to make its way to a specific point or focus it's attacks in a particular direction.)

    - Her Sabotage Drone should have a much faster wind-up time once it lands - say, the same time it takes for Abathur's toxic nests or H&H's mag-mines to arm. In its current form it's useless against anything that isn't standing still.

    - You should be able to spend excess minerals to lower the production cooldown on all of her units, not just her. Make it super-expensive if you need to, but losing your ravens lategame with none to spare makes it extremely difficult to recover.

    - You should be able to spend excess minerals to speed up the cooldown on the Griffin Transport.

    - Add a range buff upgrade to her railgun turrets as the 4th upgrade slot in her engineering bay.

    - Add an upgrade for her Goliaths so they can hit ground and air simultaneously like Swann's.

    I think some or all of these would bring her back in line with the newer commanders.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    I'm currently doing a small personal Blizzard boycott over Hong Kong (I hope to last like a month or two at least) but I'm decent enough with Brutations on various commanders (Raynor, Kerrigan, Artanis, Fenix, Stukov, Swann, Abathur, Vorazun is my roster) to know that Nova is a pretty phenomenal commander on most of them due to a decent start (you can downright hero solo stuff early on) and powerful utility. Tychus is cool, but overall low DPS, so even though he's easy he doesn't fit every situation (Railroad Switch was a pain for him). Zeratul has extremely low barrier of entry simply because he has an insane start and a foolproof strat of just spamming cannon projections everywhere, risk-free and with good results.

    Highest ceiling commander is definitely Raynor. To play him truly optimally (and not just spam "I just lost a lot of good troops there" to your ally but it's okay because you have 9 OCs and 30 barracks) you have to have your fundamentals on point, but he's powerful and rewarding. You can do a lot by maximizing your Hyperion while microing your army, and knowing the map and spawncamping with Spider Mines can decisively win Brutations.

    Vorazun has some things that show off your skill, but she's also an easy mode for mutations due to Time Stop and Black Hole spam, and Dark Templar / Corsair with enough saturation just doesn't get hit. You can play a-move Vorazun with impunity. Frankly, you can play a-move anything with impunity; your mettle only really gets truly tested in brutations if your early game was good.

    Nova's cooldowns aren't really an issue at the moment. Nova can hero solo regular brutal missions easily and her army is still a terrific support to any ally. If you want to look at unpopular or underperforming (in Brutations, that is; I don't consider regular Brutal to be particularly hard with anyone) commanders, you're better off looking at Alarak or Karax. Or Stukov, but that might be only due to the recent influx of mutations that force high DPS commanders (Heroes from the Storm / Avenger and Railroad Switch). Nova isn't underperforming at all; she's ridiculously good. The only thing that changed is that the other "elitist" heroes actually don't require effort to produce good results.

    And yes, Dehaka is too strong if we're going off which commanders are slightly above the curve. His ramp up is ridiculous and his speedrun times are strong. He has very strong calldowns.
    Last edited by Winthur; 2019-10-18 at 10:06 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Mordekaiser for president.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Without PvP being a factor I don't see how a class can be too strong. The need for balance is much lower, if you don't like a particular commander you just don't play that one.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Without PvP being a factor I don't see how a class can be too strong. The need for balance is much lower, if you don't like a particular commander you just don't play that one.
    Past a certain point, you can end up with one player overshadowing the other and making them feel like theyre watching a game rather than playing it.
    ďEvil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.Ē

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Past a certain point, you can end up with one player overshadowing the other and making them feel like theyre watching a game rather than playing it.
    That is kind of the D&D tier thing. But having disparities also lets new or not as skilled at micro players keep up with good players. It took forever for me to learn to hotkey all of my groupings and buildings, and I'm still not great at it.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Brutal is a random queue so there's always a chance you end up with someone on either end of the spectrum - either someone who is newer or leveling a weaker commander and wanted to jump into Brutal before they're ready so you have to carry, or someone who clearly spams Brutations and has memorized every single enemy spawn/patrol comp and rushes off there to curbstomp it solo while you're still building your base (ergo you get carried.) Those two tend to be the outliers but they do happen. Personally I enjoy carrying in Brutal as it presents an additional layer of challenge without some of the "you must use this army with this partner" or "you cannot expect to succeed with this commander" expectations that some mutations and especially Brutations do.

    Mutations meanwhile lack a queue system so you have to partner with specific people. I freely admit that there are some Brutation combos that I just can't do, or at the very least that I and my friends (who don't play quite as much as I do and who are the only ones I do mutations with) can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    That is kind of the D&D tier thing. But having disparities also lets new or not as skilled at micro players keep up with good players. It took forever for me to learn to hotkey all of my groupings and buildings, and I'm still not great at it.
    I hotkey my unit buildings and all my top bar/hero abilities, but I'm still bad at hotkeying my upgrade buildings like armories and engineering bays.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    personally ive found little value in hotkeying upgrade facilities. I end up checking back at my base anyway, usually to build something, enough to have a good idea of what my research progress is until the late game, at which point im generally just waiting on 3/3 anyway.
    ďEvil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.Ē

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    I've had too many of those "crap, I'm still 1/3 and we're getting ready for the final push!" moments to think I don't have a problem It's not a major problem, mind you, but it's also become more noticeable now that they buffed Amon to get those same upgrades himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I've had too many of those "crap, I'm still 1/3 and we're getting ready for the final push!" moments to think I don't have a problem It's not a major problem, mind you, but it's also become more noticeable now that they buffed Amon to get those same upgrades himself.
    Amon always got the weapon and armor upgrades actually. Its only other upgrades like charge that he got changed to use recently. While there are some commanders it makes a difference on, a lot of them have so much overkill and/or use abilities for their damage that it doesn't really matter that much.
    ďEvil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.Ē

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Without PvP being a factor I don't see how a class can be too strong. The need for balance is much lower, if you don't like a particular commander you just don't play that one.
    I mean, it's just that, for example, when someone like Zeratul is pretty much always an amazing pick for mutations no matter what due to how bloated his kit is (insanely fast rock-clearing with Zoraya's Legion, strong hero in the early game, multiple valid army compositions, a rather foolproof Cannon strategy, and Avatar of Essence is an amazing "oh crap" button, and all of that comes with a rather low skill floor), it feels off, and not everyone knows or cares about what Abathur / Dehaka / Raynor can do with some more effort than that because it's usually irrelevant. Even if someone like Abathur is much better at the very niche competitive 1%, or soloing mutations due to Toxic Nest abuse and Brutalisks being pretty broken, it's easier to spot a bad Abathur than a bad Zeratul.

    About the only thing I'm somewhat concerned with is that Karax, the purported king of static defense, has been unpopular on some "defensive"-oriented mutators simply because his DPS is somewhat low, and that Karax cannonspam seems to have given wa to Zeratul's cannon projection spam. That's about it. Everyone else seems to be mostly in line, and solid mechanics will win you most challenges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    personally ive found little value in hotkeying upgrade facilities
    Depends on commander. I tend to use my latter hotkeys for that anyway (not the army ones), but not everyone needs 3/3. I often run 0/3 on Vorazun (and focus on upgrading Corsairs after +3 weapons, not DTs) simply because she often just doesn't get hit due to how Shadow Fury and the "death recall" passive works. Still, I'd rather keep a hotkey on them because I like to optimize my gameplay and having the weapons/armor earlier is likely making me play better and making me feel better

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Personally I enjoy carrying in Brutal as it presents an additional layer of challenge without some of the "you must use this army with this partner" or "you cannot expect to succeed with this commander" expectations that some mutations and especially Brutations do
    To Blizzard's credit I feel like there are only a few truly busted mutators or mutator combos (usually related to Void Rifts or Heroes from the Storm) that make me feel like I absolutely can't touch certain commanders. I remember vehemently sticking to Artanis/Zeratul when doing Railroad Switch, and Vorazun cheese combos on Assembly on Vengeance, but most other mutations feel relaxed and better players than me could certainly do them. I generally like the variance in mutators, whether they're just introducing some interesting obstacle that mixes things up or are designed as a puzzle to get Brutation junkies to suffer.

    I liked for example the last "insane" mutation I recall, the one with Void Rifts on Part and Parcel - a lot of people did it by cheesing it on one-base with Swann defending the base while relying on a more mobile partner and sniping the rifts in a tag-team of lasers and calldowns, but some others would push on the offensive ASAP and kill rifts before they had a chance to flourish. This stuff is cool to figure out.

    But yeah, Brutal lets you play pretty much everything. I still get annoyed when I see Raynors who don't build any OCs and then proceed to queue up 5 marines in each of their 4 barracks for the rest of the game.
    Last edited by Winthur; 2019-10-18 at 09:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Mordekaiser for president.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Titan in the Playground
     
    CarpeGuitarrem's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    I have a blast with SC2 co-op because I'm mediocre at the game, but there's a ton of fun abilities to play with, and I can play with better players who can make sure we don't instantly lose.

    Mostly I played Karax and LAZERS EVERYWHERE.
    Ludicrus Gaming: on games and story | My Steam Account
    Quote Originally Posted by Saph
    Unless everyone's been lying to me and the next bunch of episodes are The Great Divide II, The Great Divide III, Return to the Great Divide, and Bride of the Great Divide, in which case I hate you all and I'm never touching Avatar again.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    I'm trying to finish leveling Swann and starting Raynor. Swann was my first commander, got him to level 10 before I switched to Stukov then Dehaka.

    Mostly he just lacks the power of other commanders. Moving Hercules full of tanks is cool, but finicky compared to ctrl+A on a wall of carriers or cruisers. In Dead of Night I end up using Hercules+Thors because tanks can't move fast enough to effectively clear the map.

    Raynor is great, no idea why I never tried him before.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Mostly he just lacks the power of other commanders.
    Swann has a fantastic AoE ground presence with just HercTank. He has plenty of power, the only problem is with how fast you're capable of getting a full 1 Herc / 8 Tank combo. He has good burst DPS when it matters and refineries are a direct synergy to particularly gas-hungry commanders like Vorazun. Laser Drill has two different map wipes and it can even snipe objectives down. Swann has a ton of power, he's just not much of a speedrunner, but even his vaunted slow ramp-up isn't that problematic if you can micro your first Herc well, also ARES helps him move out and contribute greatly. Also, Goliath / Vessel is very A-move friendly if you'd rather do that, although Goliath / Vessel is also really slow in comparison.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    In Dead of Night I end up using Hercules+Thors
    Thors are, for the most part, a subpar unit. They're decent anti-ground units, but you already have Tanks, so why bother? Missile Barrage doesn't work very well and Thors also take up so much space they reduce your army's overall DPS.
    DoN is Siege Tank city! Hordes of Infested die easily at night to Tank fire and then ferrying the tanks around is easy during the daylight. The ARES cooldown is low enough that you can have it up most of the time during the daylight, so ARES can just A-move, drawing aggro while your Hercs are behind it. Practice unloading all Siege Tanks at once (press the 'U'nload hotkey, left-click on your selected Herculi (not the ground!); doing so will cause all Herculi in a control group to instantly drop their payload! The Tanks fire; then select the Tanks and right-click them into the Herculi. You can keep leapfrogging like that, eating at more and more and more defenses of the enemy.

    Of course, Siege Tank based strategies might be harder since you don't seem to have Immortality Protocol yet, and HercTank micro does take some practice.
    Also, for DoN, I like to send my Hercules to scout the edges of the map and provide targets for my Laser Drill. Herkies are tanky and they can always escape with Tac Jump. You don't have Swann masteries yet, but DoN will also get easier with those as you can use amplified Concentrated Beam to wipe out rows of infested buildings.

    On DoN, if Tanks aren't working out for you (and they're really good there, IMO), try out Wraiths! Your minerals can all go into Betties as you build up Starports at home. With Pulse Amplifier upgrade and some care, you can keep hit'n'running buildings and avoid harm. You can also snipe annoyances like Spotters.

    Or if you just want to A-move, I'd go Goliath-Vessel any time over Thors. Thors can be sprinkled into an army composition from time to time, but they're really not a strong "core" unit.
    Last edited by Winthur; 2019-10-20 at 01:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Mordekaiser for president.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Olinser's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Without PvP being a factor I don't see how a class can be too strong. The need for balance is much lower, if you don't like a particular commander you just don't play that one.
    Because they design the tougher Brutations based on perceived player power.

    If a couple are significantly more powerful then it either ends with people playing those characters facerolling them, or being near-impossible unless you play those characters.

    ALL HAIL THE GREAT RAK!!

    I use the same name in every game I ever play or forum I join (except the pretender on PSN that forced me to be RealOlinser). If you see an Olinser in a game or on a website, there's a high chance it's me, feel free to shoot me a message.

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    Because they design the tougher Brutations based on perceived player power.
    If a couple are significantly more powerful then it either ends with people playing those characters facerolling them, or being near-impossible unless you play those characters.
    I don't actually know how they're doing this considering Stukov got his bunkerspam and then immediately afterwards they put out mutations that were insanely brutal towards low DPS commanders (something Stukov is, he wins with endurance and not burst) whereas Zeratul still has yet to be nerfed even though he is consistently the single best pick in all mutations, ever. Even Tychus struggles with low DPS on some objectives and even classic mutation powerhouses like Vorazun, Kerrigan, Abathur or Dehaka have troubles on some mutators (Dehaka and Abathur are both really annoying to play on Just Die! or Polarity and Kerrigan, Vorazun struggle with Black Death.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Mordekaiser for president.

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    I don't actually know how they're doing this considering Stukov got his bunkerspam and then immediately afterwards they put out mutations that were insanely brutal towards low DPS commanders (something Stukov is, he wins with endurance and not burst) whereas Zeratul still has yet to be nerfed even though he is consistently the single best pick in all mutations, ever. Even Tychus struggles with low DPS on some objectives and even classic mutation powerhouses like Vorazun, Kerrigan, Abathur or Dehaka have troubles on some mutators (Dehaka and Abathur are both really annoying to play on Just Die! or Polarity and Kerrigan, Vorazun struggle with Black Death.)
    Zeratul is a newer commander. Theyre generally tackling the older commanders first before reworking the newer ones unless they release with some crippling design issue that prevents them from being able to win at all.
    ďEvil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.Ē

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Zeratul is a newer commander. Theyre generally tackling the older commanders first before reworking the newer ones unless they release with some crippling design issue that prevents them from being able to win at all.
    Stetmann's Infestors got heavily tinkered with in a week one patch because they were too much of a go-to choice (and they also caused too much lag), though. I don't recall a time we had a commander that was really weak at release - maybe the original Abathur?
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Mordekaiser for president.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    Stetmann's Infestors got heavily tinkered with in a week one patch because they were too much of a go-to choice (and they also caused too much lag), though. I don't recall a time we had a commander that was really weak at release - maybe the original Abathur?
    H&H had some significant problems with Horner's units and mag mines that were changed fairly early on, IIRC.

    and yes, Stetmann was changed because he was literally rendering the game unplayable for many people.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2019-10-20 at 03:17 PM.
    ďEvil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.Ē

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    I'm still annoyed at the whole Blizzard-China fiasco and have been somewhat adamant in not supporting their player numbers but the thread made me crave Starcraft more again so if you're on EU and need help with the current Brutation I will make an exception just for you because I love you. :v
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Mordekaiser for president.

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Without PvP being a factor I don't see how a class can be too strong. The need for balance is much lower, if you don't like a particular commander you just don't play that one.
    Itís that thereís a finite amount of content. Certain commanders can clear most/ all of it way too fast leaving the other player nothing to do. Which feels horrible for that person. A speedrunning Dehaka can clear Void Thrashing in 11 minutes on one base against Protoss. A DT only Vorazun can do it solo in 12-14. Kerrigan on Rifts to Korhal is also absurdly fast. Even on slower maps like the Mist Opportunities a good Deheka or Zeratul can clear the map and kill all the waves in 2 different locations on spawn in.When I played a lot more, Iíve had games on Temple as H&H where Iíve cleared the whole map, done all three bonuses, killed every thresher on spawn, and killed half+ of my partnerís waves while taking no temple damage. For slower commanders/ ones without movement abilities/ newer players who donít have spawn points/times memorized, you can literally be running in circles and never get to fight anything because itís dead before your army gets there. Again, that feels horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    Swann has a fantastic AoE ground presence with just HercTank. He has plenty of power, the only problem is with how fast you're capable of getting a full 1 Herc / 8 Tank combo. He has good burst DPS when it matters and refineries are a direct synergy to particularly gas-hungry commanders like Vorazun. Laser Drill has two different map wipes and it can even snipe objectives down. Swann has a ton of power, he's just not much of a speedrunner, but even his vaunted slow ramp-up isn't that problematic if you can micro your first Herc well, also ARES helps him move out and contribute greatly. Also, Goliath / Vessel is very A-move friendly if you'd rather do that, although Goliath / Vessel is also really slow in comparison.
    This. Swann has ton of power, itís just dependent on both your micro and macro. Herc/Tank/Goliath is a pretty ridiculous combo. 1-3 Hercís full of tanks wrecks most everything, and the ability to pick up and set down the tanks in siege mode means they shouldnít be taking damage. Goliaths have ridiculous anti-objective DPS against Rifts/Threshers because once you get dual targeting they hit with both weapons on the same target.

    Swann also has one of the fastest expansions on rock maps. I forget the optimal order but basically, 2 scvs at 13/14 to build your first supply depot, 4 scvs right after to make factory, same 4 scvs to build 2 antiarmor turrets to kill the rocks, same 4 scvs start command center pull 4 more from your main when itís about half way, salvage the turrets at no cost when the rocks are dead. This gets your expansion up before Tychus has even spawned. If your ally was fast about their gas you can even have enough to immediately drop an armory to be able to upgrade your laser when it spawns, which means youíll have your beam to clear certain hard waves at breakpoints.

    On the other hand, if you arenít great at micro and lose tanks early, or are slow on expanding and macro, or forgot to upgrade your drill, you can be behind a key moments and take more loses and just spiral down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    Thors are, for the most part, a subpar unit. They're decent anti-ground units, but you already have Tanks, so why bother? Missile Barrage doesn't work very well and Thors also take up so much space they reduce your army's overall DPS.
    Yeah Thors are a niche unit, 2/4/6/8 can work well on certain maps/comps but thatís you really should never need more than 8 at the LATE game. 2-4 are nice to drop infest banshees on Miner Evac due to their range and anti-light air damage. 4-8 can be useful if the enemy comp is void rays and AMAZING if you have a Vorazun ally, black hole the enemy voids rays shoot 1-2 times and the whole wave is dead. Outside of those, targeted attacks with mass goliaths work better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    On DoN, if Tanks aren't working out for you (and they're really good there, IMO), try out Wraiths! Your minerals can all go into Betties as you build up Starports at home. With Pulse Amplifier upgrade and some care, you can keep hit'n'running buildings and avoid harm. You can also snipe annoyances like Spotters.
    Mass Wraiths are a TON of fun IMO. Youíll want to keep microing them because they get a 300% boost while moving, so constantly re positioning them means you snipe buildings in 1 volley. 3 Starports with reactors is all youíll need to burn your income though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    H&H had some significant problems with Horner's units and mag mines that were changed fairly early on, IIRC.
    and yes, Stetmann was changed because he was literally rendering the game unplayable for many people.
    Yeah, H&H got buffed SIGNIFICANTLY right after release. Here's the patch notes from about 2 weeks later. From memory, mines were really bad, the long arming timer and trigger timer meant you basically HAD to place them on a building to kill anything. Most early waves of zealots/zerglings/marines would be past the mines before they triggered and they'd miss completely. Han's units were made of thinner paper so you were basically always better off using reapers. (Hellbat HP basically doubled! from 135 to 235 in that patch) Most of Horner's units got a damage buff and supply increase. Strike fighters had to get a major speed buff because they were getting shot down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    I'm still annoyed at the whole Blizzard-China fiasco and have been somewhat adamant in not supporting their player numbers but the thread made me crave Starcraft more again so if you're on EU and need help with the current Brutation I will make an exception just for you because I love you. :v
    Seconded. Because of the China thing, Iím basically done paying for anything Blizzard puts out at this point. So Iíll never buy Abathur/Nova/Zeraítul/Stetmann. But Iíll keep playing to enjoy the stuff Iíve already bought and drive down their effective monetization numbers. I'm NA though.
    Last edited by Thomas Cardew; 2019-10-21 at 04:46 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Olinser's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Cardew View Post
    *snip*

    Seconded. Because of the China thing, Iím basically done paying for anything Blizzard puts out at this point. So Iíll never buy Abathur/Nova/Zeraítul/Stetmann. But Iíll keep playing to enjoy the stuff Iíve already bought and drive down their effective monetization numbers. I'm NA though.
    It's actually comical at this point.

    Blizzard just leaked confirmation of Diablo 4. They're DESPERATE for good publicity.

    ALL HAIL THE GREAT RAK!!

    I use the same name in every game I ever play or forum I join (except the pretender on PSN that forced me to be RealOlinser). If you see an Olinser in a game or on a website, there's a high chance it's me, feel free to shoot me a message.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    It's actually comical at this point.

    Blizzard just leaked confirmation of Diablo 4. They're DESPERATE for good publicity.
    Do you guys not have a good PR department?

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Cardew View Post
    Seconded. Because of the China thing, Iím basically done paying for anything Blizzard puts out at this point. So Iíll never buy Abathur/Nova/Zeraítul/Stetmann. But Iíll keep playing to enjoy the stuff Iíve already bought and drive down their effective monetization numbers. I'm NA though.
    Yeah, I basically didn't touch the launcher at all and I will only make the exception for helping other EU players. Unless, idk, Blizzard does a total 180*. I'm a huge Brood War fan, so this whole situation hurts my soul, but so be it. (I guess watching Afreecatv content doesn't support Blizzard though...)
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Mordekaiser for president.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    My buddy plays Zeratul, and I have to say always being behind on kills gets annoying. The omnipresent fleet of ships is hard to keep up with, even as he complains that his end game is anemic. One game Zeratul and his army died, I dealt with most of the void thrashers and he still ended up with more kills.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    My buddy plays Zeratul, and I have to say always being behind on kills gets annoying. The omnipresent fleet of ships is hard to keep up with, even as he complains that his end game is anemic. One game Zeratul and his army died, I dealt with most of the void thrashers and he still ended up with more kills.
    Zeratul seems absurdly overtuned. I leveled him to 5 last week just so that I don't get completely screwed if I random him in a brutal map, and he's ridiculous even at that level. Looking up what the rest of his upgrades and masteries would be is just ridiculous. He's got a great expansion clear, pushed earlier by masteries, no research times, and free level 3 upgrades by 9 minutes at no cost to his army. He isn't even supply cap limited since you can just spam infinite cannons.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •