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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Yeah he's pretty absurd. And in addition to his cannons just straight up being spammable anywhere you have vision, he has both types - cannons that are good against big meaty targets, and towers that are long-range and good against swarms of weaklings. The stun on every shot is just icing for those.

    On defense missions like Dead of Night, I turret the exterior means of access like any other defense hero would, and then I just keep a battery of cannons in the center hotkeyed that I can project to whichever side is getting pressured and doesn't have either my army or my ally's there.

    Two ways I would consider nerfing him:

    - Limit the number of cannons you can project at a given time - 10-15 should be more than enough to use them offensively or in emergencies without turning him into Strictly Better Karax.

    - His Avatar of Essence is too powerful against every army type. Bunch of big things, downgrade them to be fragile; swarm of small things, completely castrate them by turning them all into workers. IMO his Essence should be for the former while his Form Avatar should be for the latter due to all the psionic storms it pumps out. I would rule that the Essence Avatar has a specific tier of unit that it won't devolve enemies past, that makes it a bad choice if you're up against, say, banelings and zerglings. If that's too tricky to program, have it only downgrade X creatures per pulse, which will cause big stuff like Battlecruisers to still get screwed by it, while it will cause smaller things like piles of siege tanks and zerglings to be weaker but still dangerous.

    Beyond that I think he's fine, his army is decently balanced and you do have to be careful with it due to its extreme cost. I don't mind his upgrades being free/instant because some of the artifact pieces end up in very awkward locations. It's just that once he gets all three he's unstoppable and it's a bit too easy to do that.

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    I don't think you even need to restrict his cannon numbers, just have them be destroyed when the projection is killed. That way you want to use them more as a supplementary role outside of your base or dedicated choke points, and they don't grow out of control nearly as quickly.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I don't think you even need to restrict his cannon numbers, just have them be destroyed when the projection is killed. That way you want to use them more as a supplementary role outside of your base or dedicated choke points, and they don't grow out of control nearly as quickly.
    That doesn't stop you from using 30+ of them to alpha strike an objective or disembowel an attack wave without needing your army though. Sure you'd have to rebuild them afterward, but by then you'd've already rendered your ally superfluous and won solo; limiting the projections lets you use them offensively without obviating the need for units entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    That doesn't stop you from using 30+ of them to alpha strike an objective or disembowel an attack wave without needing your army though. Sure you'd have to rebuild them afterward, but by then you'd've already rendered your ally superfluous and won solo; limiting the projections lets you use them offensively without obviating the need for units entirely.
    Whats wrong with that though? Plenty of commanders can do so. H&H with their air strikes, Nova with her Griffon, Swann with his laser, to the point where there are actual strategies built around doing nothing but lasering things to death all game. Making him rebuild the cannons at least means there is an ongoing investment of resources into doing so, and it helps limit their ability to scale to infinity in the late game where attack comps have a much easier time chewing through static defenses.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Sure you'd have to rebuild them afterward, but by then you'd've already rendered your ally superfluous and won solo; limiting the projections lets you use them offensively without obviating the need for units entirely.
    Jokes on you, I always figure my ally is superfluous and play as if I were running solo, and often that approach pays dividends.

    Also what Keltest just said. Raynor's Hyperion can furthermore erase any attack wave until the very late game (which might not happen, like when you're doing Void Thrashers or Lock and Load, very quick maps), Abathur's Brutalisks can solo objectives and easily respond to pushes, Fenix can plop up wherever he wants and Solarite Dragoon everything a wave to oblivion, the list goes on. Global presence is something plenty of commanders have.
    The issue with cannon projections is really mostly that you can run with hero solo Zeratul masteries and effectively replace any need for army while also being able to push with cannons. Karax wishes he had a durable hero and an insanely mobile riskless way to set up a base wherever he wants.
    Last edited by Winthur; 2019-10-30 at 12:11 PM.
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    I might have muddied the issue by talking about attack waves, it's true those are easy to deal with for several commanders - the fact still remains that Zeratul is still very far above the curve compared to his fellows. Maybe cannon projection isn't a major part of that, but I do still think it's too versatile. Maybe destroying the cannons but leaving them uncapped would solve that too, though I still don't particularly like the idea of cannon batteries being as offensive as his are, even if there's a cost associated with replacing them - I just don't see that being as big a balancing factor as limiting the number you can use. Just my thoughts though.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I don't think you even need to restrict his cannon numbers, just have them be destroyed when the projection is killed. That way you want to use them more as a supplementary role outside of your base or dedicated choke points, and they don't grow out of control nearly as quickly.
    That brings them down to Dehaka's Worm's level, which is good but not game defining good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    That brings them down to Dehaka's Worm's level, which is good but not game defining good.
    Well, to be fair, one guy soloed Memorable Boss (Heroes from the Storm and Moment of Silence on Void Launch), the hardest mutation of all time by popular vote, with Primal Wurm Dehaka.
    Last edited by Winthur; 2019-11-01 at 09:52 AM.
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    New co-op commander, Arcturus Mengsk, looks like he's inspired by Company of Heroes or something (veterancy system, units working in squads that pick each other up, workers that are also infantry).
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    New guy looks good, I'm a fan. Throwing chaffe into the fire is always my preference anyway.
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Nice to see Terran Commanders geting actual Terran units this time around give that the last two (Stukhov and Stetman) were zerg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Cardew View Post
    Nice to see Terran Commanders geting actual Terran units this time around give that the last two (Stukhov and Stetman) were zerg.
    Han and Horner and Tychus must both be infested
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    Han and Horner and Tychus must both be infested
    The real question is where are my infested protoss and human-protoss hybrids?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    Han and Horner and Tychus must both be infested
    Brain derp, I meant at least two.

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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Remember that if you're playing on outdated gear like I do to set your Textures to Ultra for current mutation, because otherwise you will not be able to see Void Rifts. Sniping them is crucial to success. Zeratul is the best for this mutation because if you grant him vision he can Cannon spam every shard while also holding the line against rifts, and Zeratul himself will do a decent job hunting down shards, too. Any commander that can fly around the edges of the map to snipe shards does very well. Defensive commanders like Swann or Karax can easily hold the line (Swann is also good at sniping rifts) if your ally chooses to amass a sniping fleet. Artanis Tempests and Nova Libs can snipe shards very well. Raynor can even mass Battlecruisers or Viking/Banshee. Overall this mutation is mostly just annoying. I tried doing it with Kerrigan but that requires extreme care as Kerrigan simply gets exploded by Mines and even spamming Omega Worms on the map is simply cumbersome.
    Last edited by Winthur; 2019-11-05 at 08:24 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    Remember that if you're playing on outdated gear like I do to set your Textures to Ultra for current mutation, because otherwise you will not be able to see Void Rifts. Sniping them is crucial to success. Zeratul is the best for this mutation because if you grant him vision he can Cannon spam every shard while also holding the line against rifts, and Zeratul himself will do a decent job hunting down shards, too. Any commander that can fly around the edges of the map to snipe shards does very well. Defensive commanders like Swann or Karax can easily hold the line (Swann is also good at sniping rifts) if your ally chooses to amass a sniping fleet. Artanis Tempests and Nova Libs can snipe shards very well. Overall this mutation is mostly just annoying. I tried doing it with Kerrigan but that requires extreme care as Kerrigan simply gets exploded by Mines and even spamming Omega Worms on the map is simply cumbersome.
    Zeratul + H&H seem like the best combination here. H&H can get vision on the rifts, potentially kill some, and trigger some of the mines with their bombers, while Zeratul can cannon spam to shore up defenses against anything that does get through.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2019-11-05 at 08:22 AM.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Zeratul + H&H seem like the best combination here. H&H can get vision on the rifts, potentially kill some, and trigger some of the mines with their bombers, while Zeratul can cannon spam to shore up defenses against anything that does get through.
    Yeah, I did it for the first time as a defensive-oriented Swann with Zeratul and focused on sniping rifts with lasers. Concentrated Beam grants vision for like 1 second over what it fires at which is enough time for Zeratul to cannon spam, and with I believe 19 points in CB mastery you one-shot Rifts, too. Fly a Hercules around to help snipe the rifts and keep building turrets while brushing up on your Tank count or simply amass Wraiths to help snipe shards. So yeah, I believe H&H would do even better. I might play around with the mutation in solo queue and try some oddball stuff, and I can also play with someone if you need a team partner in Europe. Anyhow, this mutation is certainly Zeratul city.
    Last edited by Winthur; 2019-11-05 at 08:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Zeratul + H&H seem like the best combination here. H&H can get vision on the rifts, potentially kill some, and trigger some of the mines with their bombers, while Zeratul can cannon spam to shore up defenses against anything that does get through.
    I really don't like mutations that mess with vision. That in the dark one was horrible, I had to use Tychus because then I could keep everyone grouped up.

    Unrelated; by steady process of grinding everyone up to mastery I have found I really like Stettman and really hate Zegara and Kerrigan. That feels weird to me because they all rely on teleporting piles of glass around and using a hero to shore up weaknesses, but Stettman feels like I can contribute through wipeouts better due to stetalites, and has better units combinations. Hydralisk+ultralisk is amazing for DPS and tanking, or Infester+Zergling for free spam.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I really don't like mutations that mess with vision. That in the dark one was horrible, I had to use Tychus because then I could keep everyone grouped up.

    Unrelated; by steady process of grinding everyone up to mastery I have found I really like Stettman and really hate Zegara and Kerrigan. That feels weird to me because they all rely on teleporting piles of glass around and using a hero to shore up weaknesses, but Stettman feels like I can contribute through wipeouts better due to stetalites, and has better units combinations. Hydralisk+ultralisk is amazing for DPS and tanking, or Infester+Zergling for free spam.
    Unless youre making nothing but zerglings with Kerrigan, you really shouldn't be seeing very many army wipes with her. Her late game comps tend to build pretty beefy, and even mass hydras has some decent staying power.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Unless youre making nothing but zerglings with Kerrigan, you really shouldn't be seeing very many army wipes with her. Her late game comps tend to build pretty beefy, and even mass hydras has some decent staying power.
    I really struggle with her. Her sturdy stuff moves really slowly, which pushes you to Nydus Worm but they eject units slowly enough that it is hard to utilize properly. And if I want to spam ultralisks Dehaka and Stettman do it better. I had an oblivion express game with her where I ran her back and forth, getting to each train after my ally blew it up and accomplish almost nothing.

    I'm sure she is fine once she gets leveled up, but early levels I can't see any advantages to playing her. I do better as Zagara, and I'm terrible with her. I spend the whole time wondering why I'm not just playing Stukov, free banelings aren't worth the inability to hit air or the low pop cap.

    There are some commanders that make sense to me innately, and others where I get done with a map and wonder what I did for 30 minutes. Kerrigan is the worst for that, I have never had a good game with her period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I really struggle with her. Her sturdy stuff moves really slowly, which pushes you to Nydus Worm but they eject units slowly enough that it is hard to utilize properly.
    Oh crud, you're playing low-level Kerrigan so you don't have the sheer beauty of Omega Worms.
    Overall, low-level Kerrigan play is when you should learn how to maximize her powerful hero the most (get a good build order with an early Evolution Chamber, and get Heroic Fortitude after you have 3 hatches, pool and extractors). Kerrigan can hero solo missions, particularly when you unlock her upgrade package.
    Nydus Worms aren't Omega Worms, which are smooth as butter, but you should still learn to make a lot of them; the main difference is simply that you can't really use them to reinforce in the middle of the battlefield like you do with Omegas, you just keep them behind your army and reinforce with a trickle.

    Otherwise, yeah, just macro up and mass Hydralisks. Make macro hatcheries instead of Queens if your macro isn't up to snuff, I tend to roll with 3 hatches but you an possibly take 4. Hotkey your Evos and get Hydras upgraded. Low-level Kerrigan is just standard macro Zerg who happens to have free reign over the first 15 minutes of the game; high-level Kerrigan is a goddess that's everywhere on the map and erases wins. You will feel much better once you hit level 9, as 8 and 9 are her biggest levelling powerspikes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    Oh crud, you're playing low-level Kerrigan so you don't have the sheer beauty of Omega Worms.
    Overall, low-level Kerrigan play is when you should learn how to maximize her powerful hero the most (get a good build order with an early Evolution Chamber, and get Heroic Fortitude after you have 3 hatches, pool and extractors). Kerrigan can hero solo missions, particularly when you unlock her upgrade package.
    Nydus Worms aren't Omega Worms, which are smooth as butter, but you should still learn to make a lot of them; the main difference is simply that you can't really use them to reinforce in the middle of the battlefield like you do with Omegas, you just keep them behind your army and reinforce with a trickle.

    Otherwise, yeah, just macro up and mass Hydralisks. Make macro hatcheries instead of Queens if your macro isn't up to snuff, I tend to roll with 3 hatches but you an possibly take 4. Hotkey your Evos and get Hydras upgraded. Low-level Kerrigan is just standard macro Zerg who happens to have free reign over the first 15 minutes of the game; high-level Kerrigan is a goddess that's everywhere on the map and erases wins. You will feel much better once you hit level 9, as 8 and 9 are her biggest levelling powerspikes.
    Okay, I will give that a shot. Yeah it is the leveling that frustrates me, I think nearly everyone is good once you hit mastery. I will try and focus more on Kerrigan then, she has a metric ton of HP so it makes sense to utilize her.

    Like Zegara gets Swarmlings and Splitters at some point, and they are clearly way better once you get to them but I just got to free banelings and running really crappy zerglings into meat grinders.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I will try and focus more on Kerrigan then, she has a metric ton of HP so it makes sense to utilize her.
    Yeah in my opinion you should learn to focus on microing Kerrigan and just have a few macro hotkeys to ensure you're climbing up tech tree and getting your expo saturated with Drones. You don't need any other units except maybe a few lings to break rocks. Only pump out units when you're maxed out, and don't hesitate to use Assimilation Aura on waves since Kerri is gas-hungry.

    I would like to speedrun you through levelling and give you pointers but alas I'm European, so blah to that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    Yeah in my opinion you should learn to focus on microing Kerrigan and just have a few macro hotkeys to ensure you're climbing up tech tree and getting your expo saturated with Drones. You don't need any other units except maybe a few lings to break rocks. Only pump out units when you're maxed out, and don't hesitate to use Assimilation Aura on waves since Kerri is gas-hungry.

    I would like to speedrun you through levelling and give you pointers but alas I'm European, so blah to that.
    Wait, you can't change servers? Why would they impose that condition?

    Thank you for the advice, I'll focus on macro with her. She has a lot of HP, so she shouldn't die too often while I practice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Wait, you can't change servers? Why would they impose that condition?
    Well, I can, but all of my commanders would be level 1, and I would have to also feel like relevelling. :v

    And yeah, just hold out 'til level 8 and 9. Also, build fewer Ultralisks until their upgrade cache comes online as they're glorified tanks that lag behind your army and really benefit the most from popping Omegas on top of people. Ultras really love their upgrades.

    Once you get Omegas learn to work with like 6-8 throughout a mission as they're also detectors and Creep spreaders. You can even use them to block paths on Dead of Night for some impressive hold-outs.

    You don't seem too sure in your micro abilities so I won't recommend massing Mutalisks (although they're really good, they also are easy to lose) and Brood Lords are sorta low DPS and really benefit from the level 11 Spire upgrade cache.

    Good luck, hope it works out, have fun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Wait, you can't change servers? Why would they impose that condition?

    Thank you for the advice, I'll focus on macro with her. She has a lot of HP, so she shouldn't die too often while I practice.
    You can change servers, but besides the natural lag from playing on a server a third of the way around the world, you also don't retain your commander levels. You do still keep the commanders you bought.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    Well, I can, but all of my commanders would be level 1, and I would have to also feel like relevelling. :v

    And yeah, just hold out 'til level 8 and 9. Also, build fewer Ultralisks until their upgrade cache comes online as they're glorified tanks that lag behind your army and really benefit the most from popping Omegas on top of people. Ultras really love their upgrades.

    Once you get Omegas learn to work with like 6-8 throughout a mission as they're also detectors and Creep spreaders. You can even use them to block paths on Dead of Night for some impressive hold-outs.

    You don't seem too sure in your micro abilities so I won't recommend massing Mutalisks (although they're really good, they also are easy to lose) and Brood Lords are sorta low DPS and really benefit from the level 11 Spire upgrade cache.

    Good luck, hope it works out, have fun.
    I've never really been good at the kind of micro ability SC requires. My RTS of choice was Company of Heroes because of its slower game play and focus on battle lines. I played SC 1 a lot in high school but basically relied on zerg rushing the enemies workers to be relevant, late game isn't for me :P
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Unrelated; by steady process of grinding everyone up to mastery I have found I really like Stettman and really hate Zegara and Kerrigan. That feels weird to me because they all rely on teleporting piles of glass around and using a hero to shore up weaknesses, but Stettman feels like I can contribute through wipeouts better due to stetalites, and has better units combinations. Hydralisk+ultralisk is amazing for DPS and tanking, or Infester+Zergling for free spam.
    I didn't care for Zagara when I was first starting, but she's become one of my favorite heroes over time. Not sure I'd describe her playstyle that way; what she's really good at, I find, is an overwhelming alpha strike - use banelings and scourges to break the enemy lines, then let your ally and your non-suicide units finish the job. You'll lose most of your army, but that's to be expected; as long as you've got your infrastructure up and running you'll have a new one in thirty seconds.

    She's a good choice for players who don't like micromanaging units, I think; except for the hero unit, none of her units have activated abilities, and most of them are either tough or disposable enough that you can do fine just selecting the whole army, telling them to attack-move into the enemy base, and sitting back to watch. (Well, watch and control Zagara. But she's a lot easier to handle than Kerrigan: doesn't need to be in the thick of things, low-ish cooldowns, rarely runs out of energy.)

    Also: don't overlook Scourges! They don't feel worthwhile at first, but once you unlock the upgrade that reduces their gas cost they're great, especially on maps where they can hit objectives (e.g. void thrashers, rifts, shuttles). Zagara's actually quite good against air if you're prepared, it's just that it's easy to be caught off-guard since all her anti-air stuff is solely anti-air.
    Last edited by The_Snark; 2019-11-05 at 08:05 PM.
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    I didn't care for Zagara when I was first starting, but she's become one of my favorite heroes over time. Not sure I'd describe her playstyle that way; what she's really good at, I find, is an overwhelming alpha strike - use banelings and scourges to break the enemy lines, then let your ally and your non-suicide units finish the job. You'll lose most of your army, but that's to be expected; as long as you've got your infrastructure up and running you'll have a new one in thirty seconds.

    She's a good choice for players who don't like micromanaging units, I think; except for the hero unit, none of her units have activated abilities, and most of them are either tough or disposable enough that you can do fine just selecting the whole army, telling them to attack-move into the enemy base, and sitting back to watch. (Well, watch and control Zagara. But she's a lot easier to handle than Kerrigan: doesn't need to be in the thick of things, low-ish cooldowns, rarely runs out of energy.)

    Also: don't overlook Scourges! They don't feel worthwhile at first, but once you unlock the upgrade that reduces their gas cost they're great, especially on maps where they can hit objectives (e.g. void thrashers, rifts, shuttles). Zagara's actually quite good against air if you're prepared, it's just that it's easy to be caught off-guard since all her anti-air stuff is solely anti-air.
    Banelings throw me for a loop. Do I ctrl+A them into an area and then wait a second before sending in my zerglings/aberrations? I feel like I lose them before they get into explosion range most of the time.

    Also what percentage of Banelings to other stuff is best? Do I turn Zerglings into banelings or only use the free ones?

    I beat temple of the past a few times by sending scourge fleets in and bypassing the thrashers defenders.

    Edit: Thanks for the assistance everyone. I really appreciate it, I struggle with finding the rhythm or groove in games so it really helps :)
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2019-11-05 at 08:18 PM.
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  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Banelings throw me for a loop. Do I ctrl+A them into an area and then wait a second before sending in my zerglings/aberrations? I feel like I lose them before they get into explosion range most of the time.

    Also what percentage of Banelings to other stuff is best? Do I turn Zerglings into banelings or only use the free ones?

    I beat temple of the past a few times by sending scourge fleets in and bypassing the thrashers defenders.

    Edit: Thanks for the assistance everyone. I really appreciate it, I struggle with finding the rhythm or groove in games so it really helps :)
    In general, you want a core of aberrations, maybe a dozen or so, and the rest of your army can be banelings and/or scourge. Just F2-A move your whole army in at once. Losing zerglings or banelings is trivial for Zagara, its basically impossible for her to run out.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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