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2019-10-17, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
The DM that is running the next campaign grew up playing D&D with his direct family, and apparently because of that, they naturally fell into the respective roles of an "Optimized" party whenever they played. My friend seems to think that due to his nature, he constructs campaigns that are only survivable with an "Optimized" party, and has been pressuring me to play a role that will fit that mold.
Our current party consists of:
Ranger (Melee Dps)
Ranger (Ranged Dps)
Sorcerer (Blaster/Debuff)
Bard (Buffs)
According to my friend, I am not allowed to play tank because that is what I usually play (and quite well if I do say so myself). What else could I play that doesn't "Step on any toes". My friend said that I pretty much HAD to play as the healer role, "If we don't have a dedicated healer, we won't even get out of the early levels" he said. I argued that the bard could heal, but apparently the bard chose no healing spells, mostly utility and buffing spells.
In my opinion, a party can have two melee dps without many issues, because there are less enemies to hurt the rest of the party if half of them don't make it past round one. A second ranged dps would allow for more than just one of the further away enemies to be dealt with, allowing the melee dps to focus on the closer enemies without worrying about using all of his movement in order to get all of them. If the party has a tank, that is quite good at defending the spell-caster and ranged dps, enemies pose less of a threat to the typically squishier members of the party (Except for necromancers, they are quite "thick" so to speak). You don't take damage if all of the enemies are dead almost immediately due to the fact that they can't get a hit in after being swept in the surprise round by a party with 3 dps stacked with buffs.
Do I NEED to play a healer?
Do we NEED to have an "Optimized" party in order to survive?
Does anyone ever REALLY NEED an "Optimized" party? Especially when you're starting at level 2.Last edited by SpicyBoi_Nezu; 2019-10-17 at 08:02 AM.
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2019-10-17, 08:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
optimized parties don't need dedicated healers. Their sense of optimization is likely quite inaccurate, especially compared to the kind of optimized shenanigans that occur on these boards.
A neat custom class for 3.5 system
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94616
A good set of benchmarks for PF/3.5
https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2...y-the-numbers/
An alternate craft point system I made for 3.5
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t-Point-system
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2019-10-17, 08:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2016
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- Schwäbisch Hall
Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
Under these circumstances I'd personally play a druid that morphs into bears and the like - still "tanky" somehow, but not that focused on dps. Ah, and he may heal from time to time.
Coming back to the core question: no, you don't necessarily need an optimized party to succeed, but you shouldn't also ignore the suggestions of your DM, he knows what's better. Like, if he says play a skillmonkey 'cause I plan a lot of dungeoncrawling and rooms full of traps, maybe he has a point.
In addition, it's true for certain roles that it's better not to duplicate them: party face comes to mind. Regarding your specific example, instead, I find no reason why there shouldn't be 2 melee dps - as long as the necessary niches are covered.Last edited by Kaleph; 2019-10-17 at 08:16 AM.
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2019-10-17, 08:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
1) no, you don't, in-combat healing is unoptimized. Just make sure one or two people in the party have a wand of lesser vigor and that's all the healing you need.
2) this depends on the DM. If he expects your party to kill the tarrasque in a straight fight at level 8, then yes, you'll need to do some optimizing.
3) see 2.Last edited by DeTess; 2019-10-17 at 08:18 AM.
Jasnah avatar by Zea Mays
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2019-10-17, 08:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
That's supposed to be an optimized party? None of the Big Three (Wiz/Cleric/Druid) in it, and the Sorc is relegated to blasting? Pshh, you'll be fine.
Easy way, go straight Druid, remember to take Natural Spell, done. Do whatever you want with the rest of your feats. You're now the strongest character in the party. And you can heal too, especially after you get to spontaneously convert your spell slots to summon unicorns. If you need more healing, just get the party to pay for a wand of CLW or Lesser Vigor out of a group fund.
You can tank if you want. Or have your pet tank. Or summon bears to tank. Or be a bear, riding a bear, summoning bears and shooting flames or lightning or acid out of your posterior. Druid is kinda like that.
Clearly the DM has a rather MMO idea of 'optimization'. Which is to say, 'DPS' and healbots. This is far less optimal in D&D, especially in 3.X, where things like battlefield control spells and things like save-or-dies/save-or-sucks/no-save-you-just-die-or-suck or immunities or miss chances or extra senses/movement options or shapeshifting or summon bigger fish (especially if the give you more spells) rule the roost.
In-combat healing is usually a waste of resources and time. You're better off quickly killing or disabling your opponents, leaving healing for out of combat. You mitigate far more damage this way, at far lower resource cost.
Edit: Also note that the Bard and Rangers can heal too, and use wands of CLW. You can share the same wand of CLW with the Bard and Rangers (but not Lesser Vigor unless the they have UMD); the distinction between divine and arcane doesn't matter for wands.
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2019-10-17, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
It's worth noting that the less-optimized the party, the more likely they are to need in-combat healing. Going druid looks like a good option (but make sure you have plenty of healing available), alternatively go cleric aiming to be a combat-cleric, where your healing is always available when needed.
A many years ago I was playing a living greyhawk adventure with my barbarian/favored soul (very unoptimized) - the way the party worked out I was comfortably the most powerful (level 4 to a mixture of level 1s & 2s I think?) but in one fight I had to keep healing the party monk who was trying to melee rather than kill the enemy to stop him dying - it was a waste of my spells and dragged out the combat a lot, but the alternative was to let him die which would not have gone down so well. I think that was when that player learnt the lesson about low level 3.5 monks and melee (i.e. don't).
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2019-10-17, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
Your GM likely has a very different definition of optimized than this board.
Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed.
- G. K. Chesterton
This is Æl-Ceald, an ice-age fantasy campaign setting. Updated!
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2019-10-17, 08:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2019
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Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
Ah, the good old "short straw" of the party: who gets to be the healer?
If "I'm just not interested in playing the healer." doesn't work, I can guarantee you there's going to be more problems down the road when the GM's ideas of how you ought to be playing clash with how you want to enjoy the game.
You don't need a healer unless the DM has designed campaign to require one.
You don't need to have the complete "trinity" unless the campaign is designed for it.
(short aside: 3.X-based games tend to assume someone is capable of healing regularly)
At really low levels, I personally don't see the value of a healer, since there's a lot of potential to be one-shot by a lucky kobold.
Ths issue here isn't really that you need to have the "holy trinity", it's that your DM is pressuring you to fill a roll you're not interested in playing. Especially from what you say: the party still needs a tank (something you like and are probably good at), and it looks like the rest of the party wasn't under the gun to fill any roles, since you have 3 DPS and 1 support. If this were a party for a WoW dungeon, kick one of the DPS (probably the sorcerer) or tell the shammy(bard) to switch to heal spec then go get a tank.
If your DM isn't interested in enforcing the trinity until it comes down to you, you're going to have other problems down the road.Knowledge brings the sting of disillusionment, but the pain teaches perspective.
"You know it's all fake right?"
"...yeah, but it makes me feel better."
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2019-10-17, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-10-17, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
That party is not optimized by the standards of GITP but if you have to play an healer and want to play a tank you can
Play a cleric so you can be a tank (maybe not cloistered )
Play a druid (you can wildshape to tank)
Play a paladin (he can heal and can use the wands, and can be a tank or at least try to be using goad you can see Smit the anthropomorphic monkey paladin in my signature, even if that is in E6 and was more at healing and buffing the party than anything else)
Ask if the bard as melodic casting , and if yes give him a wand of cure light wound so he can buff using the music and use the wands
If not ask why there are two ranger, even if one is melee and one is ranged and why there are two damage dealer from distance (ranger and sorcerer)
Play a crusader as in combat healing they can do something
Probably there could be more thing as healing and tank but now i don't have other ideas
As for your question no a party not need to be optimized one can totally play in an unoptimized party without the big casters, or without an healer but then the DM should not put challenge that he would put to an optimized party, probably with a wand of cure light wound that party doesn't need an healer, and probably you don't need to optimize because that party (at least from your description) could not be optimizedLast edited by Quentinas; 2019-10-17 at 09:21 AM.
Finally my computer is without any problem!
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2019-10-17, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
Go ahead and roll a Cleric, or even a Druid, but focus on crowd controls over healing. A Cleric can still be a tanky melee character, a Druid's animal companion is plenty tanky and so is he once he gets wild shape. Casting spells to prevent damage is often more efficient than healing since you can prevent multiple opponents from making multiple attacks with one spell, whereas one healing spell can usually only make up for a single attack. Healing should come from wands (of Lesser Vigor for 11 hp/charge) after the fight is over.
Starting at 2nd level, a Cleric can prepare Ice Slick from Frostburn and Obscuring Mist (to force ranged opponents to move closer), and use the feat Earth Devotion in Complete Champion to automatically disrupt an opponent's charge. A Druid should have a Riding Dog with trip, he's used Handle Animal to add the Warbeast template in MM2 to that, he can hide behind a wooden tower shield and cast/concentrate on Enrage Animal in SC to buff his companion for the whole fight.
Later on the crowd controls come online, the Cleric gets Hold Person and can use a domain to access additional options. The Sun domain is a good choice as it allows you to automatically defeat undead opponents 1/day, and Heat Metal should cause a weapon it's cast on to be dropped (it worked on Aragorn in Fangorn Forest). The Cold domain gets Chill Metal (see Heat Metal), Sleet Storm, and Wall of Ice. The Illusion domain is also a strong choice, especially considering you can get the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2 for it and go Shadowcraft Mage in RoS.
Druids get some of the best crowd controls: Entangle, Kelpstrand, Sleet Storm, Wall of Thorns, plus Summon Nature's Ally with Greenbound Summoning in LEoF can get a Wall of Thorns and multiple Entangles out of a 1st level spell. You can summon a Unicorn which can put out a ton of healing and its magic circle keeps evil outsiders at bay and cancels charm and domination effects. You can wild shape into a powerful melee form, a strong grappler, something that can fly so you can stay out of reach and cast spells, etc. Take Natural Bond and get a Level -3 companion like a Fleshraker dinosaur or Dire Eagle and you'll still get to apply your full Druid level toward its benefits.
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2019-10-17, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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- Wandering in Harrekh
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Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
For super-low levels (like 1- or 2-ish), some healing capability is helpful. The party might not be able to afford a wand of Lesser Vigor after purchasing their regular equipment. If the DM is expecting you to clear out a dungeon, and you need to heal up between encounters? Then yeah, a couple of castings of Cure Light per day will help out. If you can retreat and return, you won't need it as much.
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2019-10-17, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
I’d either play a “tank” Cleric (who draws aggro by being threatening) or a Crusader (who ranks with Iron Guard Glare and heals incidentally with the maneuver that heals). If you’re getting “forced” into the healer role I suspect the players will look more favorably on the former.
Excel sheet for 3.5 -- Native support for stacking rules and multiple forms; as lightweight as possible otherwise. (links currently broken, if you want a copy LMK)
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2019-10-17, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2015
Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
This isn't an optimized party. An optimized party doesn't need a healer because physical based attackers are deleting enemies each time their turn comes up and non-physical based attackers are deleting enemies with save or dies, save or sucks, and battlefield control.
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2019-10-17, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- California
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Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
You said early levels. You starting at first?
Yes a cleric is great! alignments?
Church before party?!
Pay for magical healing (join me in my prayer set).
Oh my church would love to get magic items sacrifice is good for the soul...
Those are my good clerics words.
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2019-10-17, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
Thinking about this a bit more, I do have a couple of questions. What sources do you have available? Is the DM the sort of person who would throw a boatload of traps at you? Do you expect to have much downtime?
Depending on how you answer those questions, something like an Artificer might be a good idea. Artificers can fill in for any spellcaster, and get Trapfinding.
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2019-10-17, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2015
Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
Take a few "healing spells" to be a "healer" to satisfy your party. Make an Archivist and specialize in abusing Summon Nature's Ally. You have heal when people need healing to satisfy your "Healer" requirement while sipping tea as your greenbound summon wrecks everything in the room.
Last edited by Rhyltran; 2019-10-17 at 02:52 PM.
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2019-10-17, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
1) Nope. Ask the DM if he plans to be a jerk if you decide not to be a healer. If he says No, great; if he says Yes, then you reply that maybe this game isn't for you and you walk away, still no need to be a healer.
2) Apparently not, with that party. Seriously. I mean, I'm no spectacular optimizer myself, but even I can see that a barbarian will outperform a melee ranger and a warmage will outperform a blaster sorcerer.
3) Some tables prefer higher-potency play, and for those, you do need to be an optimized party -- not to survive, but to maximize fun.
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2019-10-17, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
Do you NEED to be good at your job? No, but it doesn't hurt if you do, it helps, actually.
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2019-10-17, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
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2019-10-17, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
Segue: I HATE this argument. It's based on the assumption that wands of CLW are always readily available and affordable in at any given table, in any given campaign. They may not be, and the fact that the DM is trying to force a person to be a healer should be a strong indicator that alternative means of healing are not readily available.
Players should never assume they'll be able to get XYZ magic item once their characters hit the table. The assumption should always be that they'll get nothing more than their class features. If they get more stuff, great! But they shouldn't assume WBL, magic-item-shops or anything of that nature.
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@OP: Alternative: Make a cleric or a druid. Then you can be a tank/healer/DPS/support whenever you want. If you're not feeling "healing" today, you can turn into a cat. If you're not feeling like protecting your party with your bear butt, you can throw out some buffs and find a nice rock to sit on. If you're particularly bored, just go go godzilla.Last edited by False God; 2019-10-17 at 03:38 PM.
Knowledge brings the sting of disillusionment, but the pain teaches perspective.
"You know it's all fake right?"
"...yeah, but it makes me feel better."
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2019-10-17, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
Zounds like it is summoner Druid with a wand of CLW time. You tank, the summons tank, the wand tanks.
Optimized summons throw hundreds to thousands of HP onto the battlefield per turn, which is tremendously more then healing can do as well as doing damage.
Crocodile swarms grappling opponents is the best healing in the game.
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2019-10-17, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
Personally I would do the healer, but then optimize it more. Looks like your missing trap-finding as well. I would suggest cloistered cleric going with domain koblod gives rogue trap-finding ability. So why I don't believe in have all 4 full areas filled Seems right now your party missing all the fab 4. Which would be a bad start and hard group to play at level 1.
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2019-10-17, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-10-17, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
Sadly, players have become way too complacent with the idea that “magic marts” are a must have in every single campaign. Same for easy availability of magic items.
Having seen this behavior in players many times before , I hate to have to burst their fantasy bubble by telling them that no, wandering wizards Deus Ex Machina and Magic Mart franchises are not a thing.
Your class features? They’re a thing. Use them to your heart’s content.
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2019-10-17, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
I'll join the chorus in saying that this doesn't smell of an optimized party, because in-combat healing's no good, and there are two rangers and a bard apparently not healing, even with magic items.
You could perhaps play a warforged spirit lion totem whirling frenzy barbarian 1/crusader 1 with Adamantine Body, using Martial Spirit to heal your allies in combat. Use a flaw to pick up Extra Rage, perhaps a second one to get Extra Granted Maneuver. At level 2, such a build is very, very tanky, deals quite a lot of damage, and also heals a decent amount (Crusader's Strike and Martial Spirit is 1d6+3 healing already, equivalent to cure light wounds at CL 2).Spoiler: Collectible nice thingsMy incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.
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2019-10-17, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
Play the game you enjoy, sure, but WBL and magic item shops (..well, not explicitly dedicated magic item shops, but the idea that PCs should be able to search for and purchase specific items, the game mostly just glosses over the specifics of how that happens) are inherent assumptions of the 3.5 rules. If you are hard core opposed to the concept of purchasable magic and reliable access to magical equipment, at least some portion of which the player is going to select instead of having randomly assigned.. 3.5 may not be the game for you.
@ original poster: I think the general idea of this thread can be summarized as 'having some capacity in the party to restore HP is a good idea, but this does not mean somebody has to play 'the healer' as a dedicated role.' There are literally dozens of ways to recover HP available in the rules without requiring somebody to play a Cleric and dump all their slots into Cure X Wounds. Many of them are magic items, which means they're accessible and usable to quite a variety of classes.
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2019-10-17, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
There's a bit of a difference between a balanced party and an optimized party.
Neither one is really necessary. If you're missing something as far as balance goes, there are likely magic items that you can get your hands on to fill that gap. That being said, party balance is always nice to have, but not necessary. In particular, if the DM really cares about seeing his story through to the end and ensuring that his players are having fun playing the character they actually want to play, he'll work around your party's weaknesses and maybe even leverage that weakness into a more interesting story.
In the case of not having a dedicated healer, a healing belt is surprisingly cheap for what it does - everyone should be able to get one - and the bard can still use wands for healing. Honestly, a healer is probably the easiest thing for a party to cope with not having. Unless you're starting at level 1 with no resources and expect to encounter nothing but animals and magical beasts that give no loot until level 3, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to just plan on stocking up on belts and wands.Last edited by Vaern; 2019-10-17 at 04:18 PM.
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2019-10-17, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
That's not cool. There's nothing wrong with making a suggestion but a DM has no business pressuring any of his players to play anything in particular.
Our current party consists of:
Ranger (Melee Dps)
Ranger (Ranged Dps)
Sorcerer (Blaster/Debuff)
Bard (Buffs)
According to my friend, I am not allowed to play tank because that is what I usually play (and quite well if I do say so myself). What else could I play that doesn't "Step on any toes". My friend said that I pretty much HAD to play as the healer role, "If we don't have a dedicated healer, we won't even get out of the early levels" he said. I argued that the bard could heal, but apparently the bard chose no healing spells, mostly utility and buffing spells.
It is a good idea to try and avoid stepping on other PCs toes but that doesn't mean you -have- to play anything. At most it means you should -maybe- avoid stuff that's already on the table. I'd say steer clear of ranger, in your case, but crusader handles very differentlly and if you focus on white raven then you get some decent tactical trickery that's otherwise difficult to replicate. You'll also be absurdly durable.
As for the ability to heal in this party, everyone but the sorcerer can already activate wands and scrolls of healing spells. Basic healing is more of a between fights than a during fights anyway. If the GM is -really- worried about it, point out to him he could just throw some healing pots in the treasure piles.
In my opinion, a party can have two melee dps without many issues, because there are less enemies to hurt the rest of the party if half of them don't make it past round one. A second ranged dps would allow for more than just one of the further away enemies to be dealt with, allowing the melee dps to focus on the closer enemies without worrying about using all of his movement in order to get all of them. If the party has a tank, that is quite good at defending the spell-caster and ranged dps, enemies pose less of a threat to the typically squishier members of the party (Except for necromancers, they are quite "thick" so to speak). You don't take damage if all of the enemies are dead almost immediately due to the fact that they can't get a hit in after being swept in the surprise round by a party with 3 dps stacked with buffs.
That said, you don't have to be a heal-bot. Looks to me like what you need more is a utility caster; something in a wizard or archivist. Cleric and druid can do it too but wizard and archivist can do it better thanks to the fact they can prepare during the course of the day as things come up as long as they leave some slots open at the beginning of the day.
Do I NEED to play a healer?
Do we NEED to have an "Optimized" party in order to survive?
Does anyone ever REALLY NEED an "Optimized" party? Especially when you're starting at level 2.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
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2019-10-17, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Does a party NEED to be "Optimized"
Does a party need to be optimized? Depends on the table. But I cannot recommend strongly enough "optimizing for fun", at any tables.
Does a party need to be optimized at level 2? Under me, **** yes! You'll be fine with fairly standard characters under me at higher levels, tbh, but, until at least level 3-4 under me, expect to optimize hard or TPK often.
Is this party optimized? Um… no?
Is it OK to double up on roles? Depends on the role, and the table. In general, and especially for DPS, it's usually fine. In fact, I've had fun with parties of nothing but DPS. If you really want "melee DPS", I'd talk to the other melee DPS character. At this table, though, you may want to just avoid it - use your own judgement here. (I'm a ****, I would push the issue regardless, to hear how they respond)
What other roles are available, other than "healer" and the forbidden "tank"? Well, face, toolkit, logistics, scout, and BFC all spring to mind. Minions may fall under DPS or tank, so be careful of going (or appearing to go) a Summoner route.
Can this party cover the "healer" role? Um… kinda? They can pay 15 GP per charge for a few partially-charged wands, and buy a potion or two, just in case. But even if you go Druid, can you cure petrification, insanity, level loss, stat drain, curses, etc (no Druids in my parties ever, so I'm not fully familiar with their capabilities). "Healing" in 3e means a whole lot more than just "HP".
Should you beat the GM with a clue-by-four? Probably.
WWQD? I would tell the GM, "I'm not interested in playing a healer at this time. In fact, the internet pointed out how there are many ways to do so, and, since I don't know which way is what you consider 'required' for the party to succeed, I don't want to **** things up. Can you run one as an NPC? I've got an idea for a _____ that looks like it may work with this party." EDIT: or, if I was concerned that there may be additional stylistic mismatches, I'd push the issue of multiple overlapping DPS characters and/or ask the GM/group to give that a try (but ask the DPS character's permission first).Last edited by Quertus; 2019-10-17 at 06:08 PM.