The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas

[Gwynfrid]

Hm, I suppose the earlier (and much shorter) "I felt Right-Eye needed the motivation his family provided in order to do what he attempted at the very end of Start of Darkness" would have a similar effect....

Yes, exactly.

[b_jonas]

Right, I also want the part about Right-Eye's motivation to get included, as you can see from the snippet that I have provided.

And for question 8, I specifically want to highlight how much care the Giant takes with Durkon's speech, because that's the interesting part. That the transcribed accent adds to flavor but makes him harder to understand is obvious and we don't need an interview for that.

Now the hard part is writing the summary snippet for question 12.

[Ron Miel]

Right, I also want the part about Right-Eye's motivation to get included, as you can see from the snippet that I have provided.

But shouldn't we include that it isn't a plot hook with a planned payoff? I think that's important too.

[Jasdoif]

Since we're on a new page....

---

In case anyone missed it, the Giant made a new "answer post" over on Patreon several days ago. Current state of the discussion on which questions to include appears to be:

Spoiler: Summary

Show

#	Question	In Favor	Against	Disposition	Voters
1	"Was the importance of the quiddities a planned plot element far in advance? I'm asking because I didn't even notice the colors until Loki mentioned them in strip 998. I looked back through the archive and sure enough, the gods had their colors from the start. To have that set up so far back and not mention it until so late is very patient plotting!" (Yes.)	10	0	Include	In Favor: Doug Lampert, 137ben, Jaxzan Proditor, theangelJean, Fyraltari, Kish, Gwynfrid, fuschiawarrior, Sir_Norbert, Ron Miel Against:
2	"You've mentioned you post the comic when you finish it, do you ever wait so that you can post it at a better time?" (Sometimes.)	3	8	Exclude	In Favor: Fyraltari, Kish, Ron Miel Against: Doug Lampert, 137ben, Jaxzan Proditor, theangelJean, Gwynfrid, fuschiawarrior, b_jonas, Sir_Norbert
3	"When you make strips that happen in the past, you usually use crayon as to give them a distinctive visual identity, which I find awesome. You use real crayons? Or some digital brush with a crayon effect? If you do use real crayons, do you find it more or less difficult then making digital art? (as I assume it's how the rest of the comic is made)." (Actual crayons.)	11	0	Include	In Favor: Doug Lampert, 137ben, Jaxzan Proditor, theangelJean, Fyraltari, Kish, Gwynfrid, fuschiawarrior, b_jonas, Sir_Norbert, Ron Miel Against:
4	"Was Miko a paladin of all the Twelve Gods equally, or did she worship one of them over everyone else?" (She worshipped the pantheon equally.)	8	3	Include	In Favor: Doug Lampert, 137ben, Jaxzan Proditor, theangelJean, Fyraltari, Kish, fuschiawarrior, Ron Miel Against: Gwynfrid, b_jonas, Sir_Norbert
5	"Why does the Dark One count as evil? Same question about Redcloak, who presumably has been following the will of the Dark One? Based on strip #1208, what Redcloak wants seems extremely reasonable. So too were the demands of the Dark One, as we have been shown." (All the Evil they do.)	10	0	Include	In Favor: Doug Lampert, 137ben, Jaxzan Proditor, theangelJean, Fyraltari, Kish, Gwynfrid, fuschiawarrior, Sir_Norbert, Ron Miel Against:
6	"In the long process of writing all the stories so far, have you ever felt frustrated with the decisions you made choosing the composition of the core party members? Such as wishing you had someone else to make a story point, or having an arc where you felt uninspired writing one or more members of the party? My mental context for this question is wondering whether you ever feel restricted much later by plot decisions you made early on, before you even thought this story would have continuity." (Yes.)	9	1	Include	In Favor: 137ben, Jaxzan Proditor, theangelJean, Fyraltari, Kish, Gwynfrid, fuschiawarrior, Sir_Norbert, Ron Miel Against: Doug Lampert
7	"At what point do you come up with the names for the trade paperbacks? I understand that, at first, you likely didn't have anything in mind for the series since you didn't even know how far it would go. But as time has gone on and you've now completed 6 main line books and 4 extra books (if I'm counting right in my head without looking to check) do you have an idea what the name of the book will be when you're getting started with it? Or is it something you only really think about when it's come time to release the physical book?" (It varies.)	9	0	Include	In Favor: Doug Lampert, 137ben, theangelJean, Fyraltari, Kish, Gwynfrid, fuschiawarrior, Sir_Norbert, Ron Miel Against:
8	"I've always found it takes longer to read Durkon's speech, and exponentially so when he has long mono-/dialogues. Ironically, I think during the last stretch of strips it's helped me to slow down my reading and increase my immersion in the strip. How much longer (if at all) does it typically take you to write Durkon's speech compared to others? Do you ever regret the decision to write his speech in the style you chose? Do you write it by hand, or use a spelling replacement algorithm, or take a "method" writing approach? Are there any particular frustrations or difficulties (or joys) regarding Durkon's speech?" (A little.)	11	0	Include	In Favor: Doug Lampert, 137ben, Jaxzan Proditor, theangelJean, Fyraltari, Kish, Gwynfrid, fuschiawarrior, b_jonas, Sir_Norbert, Ron Miel Against:
9	"(W)hen you actually post the last strip, will you announce it to be such, or will it be obvious from the title, or what?" (Yes.)	3	6	Vote-able	In Favor: Kish, Gwynfrid, fuschiawarrior Against: Doug Lampert, 137ben, Fyraltari, b_jonas, Sir_Norbert, Ron Miel
10	"In some of the behind the scenes commentaries, you mentioned that you had major plans for each character when you started writing volume 0, including Durkon's touch with prophecy and vampirsm. Did you also plan for the conflict between Elan and Haley's fathers as the ruler and a prisoner of Tyriana respectively, or did that grow organically as more elements of the story fell into place?" (Since Haley looked at the ransom letter.)	10	1	Include	In Favor: 137ben, Jaxzan Proditor, theangelJean, Fyraltari, Kish, Gwynfrid, fuschiawarrior, b_jonas, Sir_Norbert, Ron Miel Against: Doug Lampert
11	"I realise this may edge into "stuff that hasn't happened yet" if the answer is yes but: do we ever find out what happened to Red Cloak's niece, Right Eye's daughter. I've wanted to know for years if she managed to grow up somewhere, hopefully happy." (Possibly?)	12	0	Include	In Favor: Doug Lampert, 137ben, Jaxzan Proditor, theangelJean, Fyraltari, ti'esar, Kish, Gwynfrid, fuschiawarrior, b_jonas, Sir_Norbert, Ron Miel Against:
12	"What is a regular "creation day" for you? I mean, what is your process for writing and drawing? Like, do you listen to music/podcast while working, do you always take at least half an hour to tweek the writing, do you alternate days of heavy writing or heavy drawing...?" (A bunch of stuff.)	9	1	Include	In Favor: 137ben, theangelJean, Fyraltari, Kish, Gwynfrid, fuschiawarrior, b_jonas, Sir_Norbert, Ron Miel Against: Doug Lampert

Spoiler: Breakdown by Poster

Show

Voter	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12
Doug Lampert
137ben
Jaxzan Proditor
theangelJean
Fyraltari
ti'esar
Kish
fuschiawarrior
b_jonas
Sir_Norbert
Gwynfrid
Ron Miel

---

And the (just-now-updated) draft of the entries for the Index are:

Tentative Updates for Index 6.7
🍍🍌On Coming Up with a Book's Title(#7) "Sometimes, it just comes to me before I'm even done with the strips....Sometimes, I sit and wrack my brain when the printer is waiting for my files to start production....Most of the time, though, I have a vague idea that I need to hammer into shape." More about "Blood Runs in the Family" in particular here.	#1222	2020/12/30	Tentative, appears will be included without vote
🍌On Planning and the Conflict between Elan's and Haley's Fathers(#10) "Well, I had plans for it starting when I drew the strip where Haley is looking at the letter. Which might count as being planned in that it wasn't paid off for like ten more years, but I'm pretty sure I didn't know it was going to happen until I created that page."	#1222	2020/12/30	Tentative, appears will be included without vote
🍌On Redcloak's Niece(#11) "I felt Right-Eye needed the motivation his family provided in order to do what he attempted at the very end of Start of Darkness."	#1222	2020/12/30	Tentative, appears will be included without vote
🍌On Transcribing Durkon's Accent(#8) "I do sometimes vary his accent depending on whether I think the meaning will be lost in a specific sentence if I don't...."	#1222	2020/12/30	Tentative, appears will be included without vote
🍌The Crayon Drawings are Made with "Actual Crayons"(#3)	#1222	2020/12/30	Tentative, appears will be included without vote
🍌The Giant on Being Constrained by His Own Decisions(#6) "...I accept the downside of being locked into certain aspects that I decided early as the price I pay for the freedom of getting to invent everything else as I go."	#1222	2020/12/30	Tentative, appears will be included without vote
🍌The Giant on How He Works on the Comic(#12) "...I'll take a shot at answering it in more depth even though I don't really have 'regular' creation days. That is, I don't plan out what I'm going to work on ahead of time or schedule specific tasks for specific days. I usually...."	#1222	2020/12/30	Tentative, appears will be included without vote
🍌The Importance of Gods' Colors was Planned in Advance(#1) "...from the time I introduced the different pantheons during the first set of crayon strips."	#1222	2020/12/30	Tentative, appears will be included without vote
🍌The Last Strip Will Be Identifiable As the Last Strip(#9) "If nothing else, it will probably end with THE END on a black panel or something similarly blatant."	#1222	2020/12/30	Tentative, appears will be eligible for vote
🍍🍌Religions and Deities in OOTS World Background details on who worships whom, and on Thor, Hel, and the Twelve Gods. See also here(#4) ("...the vast majority of citizens of Azure City, Miko included, worship all twelve gods as a single pantheon")	#848	2012/04/11	Tentative, appears will be included without vote
🍍🍌Redcloak is Evil More here(#5) ("If you're reading Redcloak's dialogue and uncritically accepting every word of it, you're overlooking one of his defining character traits: that he cloaks his vile actions in lofty rhetoric to convince himself that he is morally and ethically superior to the likes of Xykon.")	#830	2012/01/23	Tentative, appears will be included without vote

[Schroeswald]

Include to all but 2 and 9

[Throknor]

All seem good to me.

[Kish]

QUESTION : " do we ever find out what happened to Red Cloak's niece, Right Eye's daughter. I've wanted to know for years if she managed to grow up somewhere, hopefully happy. "

ANSWER : But the truth is that this has been dramatically blown out of proportion as an “obvious” plot thread that will someday be paid off when it’s…not that.

I think that this is the main part of the question, and the most important part of the answer.

What does anyone else think?
.

But shouldn't we include that it isn't a plot hook with a planned payoff? I think that's important too.

I'm with Jasdoif; Rich's words "unless she is" make "it isn't a plot hook with a planned payoff" an inaccurate paraphrase. She may, at this point, have a planned payoff; it's worth noting that creating a plot thread wasn't what Rich was going for there and what the actual reason for establishing her existence was, but not worth asserting that there is and will never be a plot thread there.

After the final strip of the seventh book is up, we can come back and rewrite the answer into "Redcloak's niece has no payoff."

[Peelee]

After the final strip of the seventh book is up, we can come back and rewrite the answer into "Redcloak's niece has no payoff."

[sadly stops writing my fanfiction story titled "The Super Cool Adventures of Redcloak's Niece" ]

[Throknor]

I'm with Jasdoif; Rich's words "unless she is" make "it isn't a plot hook with a planned payoff" an inaccurate paraphrase. She may, at this point, have a planned payoff; it's worth noting that creating a plot thread wasn't what Rich was going for there and what the actual reason for establishing her existence was, but not worth asserting that there is and will never be a plot thread there.

After the final strip of the seventh book is up, we can come back and rewrite the answer into "Redcloak's niece has no payoff."

I can't disagree with this more. He is literally saying there is no planned return. He has no intention at this time of ever mentioning her again. However, he is specifically not locking himself into never bringing her back in case he surprisingly thinks of a reason to do so but nothing is planned for it.

[The Linker]

I can't disagree with this more. He is literally saying there is no planned return. He has no intention at this time of ever mentioning her again. However, he is specifically not locking himself into never bringing her back in case he surprisingly thinks of a reason to do so but nothing is planned for it.

I do not think he is saying that at all! I could see 'he was not planning a return at the time' as an interpretation*, but now? Now I'm quite sure he knows whether or not Redcloak's niece is coming back.

He's begun the final book. He's thought about this for years. There's no way this final chapter is not tightly, tightly plotted to the point where there would be room to 'add in' Redcloak's niece. At least in any meaningful way. And if he is planning to have her back, he would answer this Patreon question the same way, because of course he wouldn't want to spoil that. That's just poor show.

*Though I would lean more towards 'he had ideas for her return, but did not include her survival specifically as a plot thread, rather, simply as motivation for Right-Eye.' It's not mutually exclusive to say that he didn't include it as an obvious plot thread to be paid off one day, but still thought of a way to pay it off anyway.

[Jasdoif]

Well, looks like #9 is still hanging in the vote-able range....so!

---

UPDATE COMING, CALLING FOR PMs TO REQUIRE VOTES

Anyone thinking the entry marked "Accepting PMs to require vote" should not be included in the Index should send me a private message, saying the entry should require a vote. (The default is to include, an item not voted on will be included in the Index.) If I get PMs from two or more people about the particular entry, it will be voted on to decide inclusion; the vote will be the next stage, and I'll announce it when the vote is ready.

The other entries below reached strong consensus already. A vote is considered unnecessary in that case; they will be included.

Proposed Items for Index 6.7
🍍🍌On Coming Up with a Book's Title(#7) "Sometimes, it just comes to me before I'm even done with the strips....Sometimes, I sit and wrack my brain when the printer is waiting for my files to start production....Most of the time, though, I have a vague idea that I need to hammer into shape." More about "Blood Runs in the Family" in particular here.	#1222	2020/12/30	No vote required, will be included.
🍌On Planning and the Conflict between Elan's and Haley's Fathers(#10) "Well, I had plans for it starting when I drew the strip where Haley is looking at the letter. Which might count as being planned in that it wasn't paid off for like ten more years, but I'm pretty sure I didn't know it was going to happen until I created that page."	#1222	2020/12/30	No vote required, will be included.
🍌On Redcloak's Niece(#11) "I felt Right-Eye needed the motivation his family provided in order to do what he attempted at the very end of Start of Darkness."	#1222	2020/12/30	No vote required, will be included.
🍌On Transcribing Durkon's Accent(#8) "I do sometimes vary his accent depending on whether I think the meaning will be lost in a specific sentence if I don't...."	#1222	2020/12/30	No vote required, will be included.
🍌The Crayon Drawings are Made with "Actual Crayons"(#3)	#1222	2020/12/30	No vote required, will be included.
🍌The Giant on Being Constrained by His Own Decisions(#6) "...I accept the downside of being locked into certain aspects that I decided early as the price I pay for the freedom of getting to invent everything else as I go."	#1222	2020/12/30	No vote required, will be included.
🍌The Giant on How He Works on the Comic(#12) "...I'll take a shot at answering it in more depth even though I don't really have 'regular' creation days. That is, I don't plan out what I'm going to work on ahead of time or schedule specific tasks for specific days. I usually...."	#1222	2020/12/30	No vote required, will be included.
🍌The Importance of Gods' Colors was Planned in Advance(#1) "...from the time I introduced the different pantheons during the first set of crayon strips."	#1222	2020/12/30	No vote required, will be included.
🍌The Last Strip Will Be Identifiable As the Last Strip(#9) "If nothing else, it will probably end with THE END on a black panel or something similarly blatant."	#1222	2020/12/30	Accepting PMs to require vote PM threshold met, vote required.
🍍🍌Religions and Deities in OOTS World Background details on who worships whom, and on Thor, Hel, and the Twelve Gods. See also here(#4) ("...the vast majority of citizens of Azure City, Miko included, worship all twelve gods as a single pantheon")	#848	2012/04/11	No vote required, will be included.
🍍🍌Redcloak is Evil More here(#5) ("If you're reading Redcloak's dialogue and uncritically accepting every word of it, you're overlooking one of his defining character traits: that he cloaks his vile actions in lofty rhetoric to convince himself that he is morally and ethically superior to the likes of Xykon.")	#830	2012/01/23	No vote required, will be included.

PMs will be accepted until January 10th, 9PM EST already. I'll try to update the table if/when entries get sufficient PMs.

To send me a PM, click my username (The vaguely-pronounceable(?)-looking word above the spellcasting-and-invocation-using banana with purple hair) and select "Private Message". Or I guess you could click here. Anyway, include the title of the entry you're nominating in the message. Mentioning something about "Index Nomination" in the subject line would be helpful.

A few final reminders:

• Don't post suggestions to require votes. They're sent by PM to avoid filling up the thread with them, posts will not be counted.
• Only PM for entries you think should be excluded. They'll be included if they don't receive sufficient nominations.
• We're not voting on the entries yet. The voting will be the next stage; I'll call for the vote at an appropriate time.
• We still have a banana in charge. Hi. (I neither confirm nor deny a zapped status.)

Further discussion of entries is encouraged at this point. In particular, recommendations for different titles and descriptions for the quote entries are things I'd be happy to consider.

---

After the final strip of the seventh book is up, we can come back and rewrite the answer into "Redcloak's niece has no payoff."

[sadly stops writing my fanfiction story titled "The Super Cool Adventures of Redcloak's Niece" ]

No no no; see, the less the comic does with Redcloak's niece, the more flexibility you have in doing what you want without violating canon (or looking like a hack for not caring that you're violating canon).

[Jasdoif]

Well that was relatively fast. No sense waiting around to start the vote...

---

Item up for voting:

🍌The Last Strip Will Be Identifiable As the Last Strip(#9) "If nothing else, it will probably end with THE END on a black panel or something similarly blatant."

#1222

2020/12/30

---

• Please bold your yes/no vote, it'll make it easier for me to notice when I go through and count everything.
• Votes must be posted (as in, not PM-ed to me) to be counted.
• Please avoid discussing the quotes themselves, outside of giving an explanation for your vote in the same post as your vote. This'll make it easier to catch up after the vote, if a new quote comes along while we're still voting.
• Per Rule F4, inclusion by vote requires a quote to have two more votes in favor than votes against.

Voting will be open until January 11th, 9PM EST.

---

The other ten entries will go into the Index after the vote is concluded.

[b_jonas]

I vote exclude on the Patreon answer about the last strip. I just still irrationally dislike that question.

[Ortho]

I vote No.

This is a rare question that's guaranteed to be answered, so I don't think its inclusion here adds anything.

[Darth V]

Vote NO.

Reasoning:
Why on earth would anybody* even ask such a thing?
And even if somebody would still be unsure if they would recognize an ending we could link them to six perfectly fine End-Of-Book comic strips which made abundantly clear that yes, here is the end of the current book. There is no reason to even assume that the last book would be handled differently.

TLDR: Dumb question is dumb, no need for direct quote to answer that. Clutter and all that.



*This includes the patreon backer who asked that in the first place! Just Why???

[Fyraltari]

No.

What Darth V said.

[DataNinja]

Yeah, I vote No. I... don't even know how it would be unclear if it was the end.

[b_jonas]

Yeah, I vote No. I... don't even know how it would be unclear if it was the end.

It would be unclear because readers really underestimate the Giant. When #936 was posted, multiple people asked if this was the last strip of the book. It could happen again. Nevertheless it's a stupid question and we should exclude it.

[Ron Miel]

Nope. Trivial. Leave it out.

[Darth V]

It would be unclear because readers really underestimate the Giant. When #936 was posted, multiple people asked if this was the last strip of the book. It could happen again. Nevertheless it's a stupid question and we should exclude it.

And IIRC even back then a lot of people rightfully pointed out that all previous books had an announcement at the end...

[137beth]

I'm also voting exclude.

[Doug Lampert]

No.


Added characters to add character.

[Gwynfrid]

No. I don't think the Index will ever be needed to help answer a question like this.

[Jasdoif]

Hrmm. Bonus points for question #9 being voted on nine times, I guess....

---

• The Last Strip Will Be Identifiable As the Last Strip failed to pass; 0 for, 9 against.

Spoiler: Voting Results

Show

Entry	Yes Votes	No Votes	Voters
The Last Strip	0	9	Yes Votes: No Votes: b_jonas, mjp1050, Darth V, Fyraltari, DataNinja, Ron Miel, 137ben, Doug Lampert, Gwynfrid

Voter	The Last Strip
b_jonas
mjp1050
Darth V
Fyraltari
DataNinja
Ron Miel
137ben
Doug Lampert
Gwynfrid

The Index has been updated with the remaining entries.

---

No. I don't think the Index will ever be needed to help answer a question like this.

So now I'm wondering if I misinterpreted your earlier post as supporting this one:

Yay, interesting answers to interesting questions. Well, I don't find all of them equally interesting, but folks asked them, so they're of interest to the Index.

I would include every one except #2. That one runs into the standard exclusion of anything relative to the rate of comic posting. Everything else is fine to include.

[Gwynfrid]

So now I'm wondering if I misinterpreted your earlier post as supporting this one:

I had little time to post, so I gave you a quick initial view, focused on item #2, which I saw as problematic. I didn't care as strongly about #9. But if we're voting on it, then I agree we don't need it.

[Peelee]

I just finished buying ten votes with my large investment of Schrute Bucks so I vote ye-awwwwwww.

So now I'm wondering if I misinterpreted your earlier post as supporting this one:

Small copy/paste snafu with the link there, I suspect?

[Jasdoif]

I had little time to post, so I gave you a quick initial view, focused on item #2, which I saw as problematic. I didn't care as strongly about #9. But if we're voting on it, then I agree we don't need it.

Ah.

---

Small copy/paste snafu with the link there, I suspect?

Yes; I may need new digital glue...fixed now.

[Emanick]

I just finished buying ten votes with my large investment of Schrute Bucks so I vote ye-awwwwwww.

Doesn't matter, I was able to buy 500 votes for no with my accumulated hoard of Stanley Nickels.

[Peelee]

Doesn't matter, I was able to buy 500 votes for no with my accumulated hoard of Stanley Nickels.

Stanley Nickels were commemorate coins that never entered circulation and everybody knows it!

[theangelJean]

As linked in Rich's Twitter, he was interviewed for an article about the 2002 Fantasy Setting Search.

It mentions Rich as being the writer of OOTS, and the influence of this contest on his decision to focus on writing rather than graphic design, but is otherwise unrelated. I don't think we should index it.