Benefit of the Non-Internet Strips to Strip #701 [SPOILER]

[Oijl]

I started reading The Order of the Stick in the fall of 2008, and I've kept up with it on a regular basis since. I've read all of the extra material except for Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales, which I apparently waited far too long to get, since copies are like a hundred freakin' bucks now.

But I've recently been going back through the comics, because I'm trying to avoid some real-life nonsense and imersing (sp?) myself in this world during lunch takes me away from my troubles for an hour...

And I'm noticing so much more. I didn't read any of the supplimental books until only a few years ago, for whatever reason, and so my current re-read is the first time I'm reading through with the knowledge of:

On the Origin of PCs
Start of Darkness
Good Deeds Gone Unpunished
Uncivil Servant
Haleo & Julelan
And, of course, The Order of the Stick Coloring Book
(and the strips in Dragon Magazine, or whatever that thing was called)

Anyway, all that preamble is to give context for a very simple two-panel moment in strip #701.

Redcloak is about to announce the founding of Gobbotopia, but he takes a moment (a panel) to stare into the mirror, before saying, "It'll all be worth it. You'll see." The first time I read this, I assumed he was trying to convince himself. But, ever since I read Start of Darkness, I noticed a significance in Redcloak losing his right eye, since his brother had lost his left eye. But, staring into a mirror.... Redcloak's reflection is missing its left eye. Redcloak's reflection only has its right eye, just like Right Eye.

Recloak is talking to Right Eye. Recloak is telling his brother that all that he, Redcloak, has done, has sacrificed (including Right Eye himself), will be worth it, when goblin equality has been achieved.

You lot, who are the True Fans, who have corkboards on your walls cluttered with papers held in by pushpins connected by string (which is all criss-crossed and snarled about) where you KNOW you've proven what the Final Panel will be, where you KNOW you've proven what the Monster in the Dark is - to you lot, this is an elementary observation. I'm not writing this post because I believe I am contributing to the whole of the knowledge of the the fanbase. I am writing this post to cheer the craftsmanship of this goofy, stupid webcomic, which even so long later after publication (13 years since #701), still has more to offer.

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(Of course, the most true reading of #701 is, in fact, still my original reading: that Redcloak is trying to convince himself... trying to convince himself that his brother would ever possibly approve.)

((And hey, while I'm here anyway, what's up with the Inferal (Devil? Fiend?) Roach's comment in the first panel of #703? MitD, reading from Redcloak's new propoganda textbook, 'learns' that goblins invented guacamole, alternate-side-of-the-street parking, and the oboe, and the roach says "Their place among the damned is secure." Like, condemning the parking thing I get. Even the oboe, though I don't agree, I can at least understand. But guacamole? One of these things is not like the others, my friends. Who doesn't like guacamole? And even if you just don't like it because you were born with malfunctioning taste buds, how could you dislike it so much as to include it in a list of inventions that would secure the inventor's place among the damned? Does Rich not understand what good food is? I just don't get it. I sincerely, really don't.))

[Kish]

The roaches are demons.

I suggest taking that line to mean that guacamole/anything else on that list you are particularly personally fond of is so objectively good that the Abyss hates it.

[Jasdoif]

Who doesn't like guacamole?

It's somewhere between kobold "salsa" and what discount store brands are allowed to label as "guacamole", I think.

[137beth]

The comic is really awesome. I had read SoD before strip 701 was first released, so I got that meaning out of it the first time. I can imagine how awesome it must feel to get it on a reread.

As for the invention of the oboe, I think their place among the damned comes from the fact that the goblins are trying to steal credit for stuff they didn't actually invent.

[Psepha]

Guacamole led to an increase in the cultivation of avocados, which then led to it being put on toast, and now on almost every gods damned piece of sushi you can get in the UK now. Stop putting avocado on practically every sushi, UK sushi restaurants! Just because california rolls worked it doesn't mean that literally every other sushi needs avocado!

Yeah I don't like avocado lol.

[pearl jam]

I would just note that avocado shrimp, avocado salmon, and avocado tuna sushi, and probably some others, is also popular in Japan, so it's not only a California or UK thing! lol I used to love eating them but recently inflation has resulted in the +avocado versions costing more per plate than the plain ones, so I've been abstaining.

[Finagle]

Avocados are not a part of traditional Japanese food. In fact seeing avocado put on their foods caused a lot of people a lot of anger when it started back in the 90s. The McDonaldsization of a great cuisine.

[Peelee]

Avocados are not a part of traditional Japanese food. In fact seeing avocado put on their foods caused a lot of people a lot of anger when it started back in the 90s. The McDonaldsization of a great cuisine.

Sure, and neither is the potato, and yet. Cultures incorporating foods from other cultures into they'd cuisine is hardly new - go ask Italians about their pasta. And given the cost of avocado compared to other foodstuffs, I wouldn't really call it "McDonaldization".

[Finagle]

Pasta dates back to the time of Marco Polo. Hardly a new invention. McDonaldsization is taking unique, interesting cuisines and putting them all in a blender to produce a smooth, undifferentiated mass. And since the food is being made by food scientists, they can make molecules that perfectly fit the taste receptors on the human tongue. Instead of being passed down from generation to generation unchanged and original, the unique cuisines hardly stand a chance.

[Peelee]

Pasta dates back to the time of Marco Polo. Hardly a new invention.

Pasta dates significantly farther back when it was new to Marco Polo. Now its traditional Italian cuisine.

I'm a fan of the Jolee Bindo school of thought, time-wise. Traditional Japanese cuisine with avocado is still unmistakably traditional Japanese cuisine. Just with another option. Cultures change and adapt. Might as well complain that the youth today now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.

[Tzardok]

Arustotle? Is that you?

[Peelee]

Arustotle? Is that you?

Close. So-crates.

I do love me some Aristotle though. I swear, he had to be the smartest man who was wrong about just everything.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Pasta dates significantly farther back when it was new to Marco Polo. Now its traditional Italian cuisine.

Pasta dates significantly further back in Italy than Marco Polo. "Mix flour and water to make food" is pre-Roman. Archeological evidence in Asia goes back further, but it's no such a tricky recipe it wasn't figured out independently by at least two different societies.

I do love me some Aristotle though. I swear, he had to be the smartest man who was wrong about just everything.

No argument about that from me, but it is truly bizarre that all modern technology runs on the logic rules he wrote down some 2500 year ago.

GW

[Peelee]

Pasta dates significantly further back in Italy than Marco Polo. "Mix flour and water to make food" is pre-Roman. Archeological evidence in Asia goes back further, but it's no such a tricky recipe it wasn't figured out independently by at least two different societies.

Fine, then, tomatoes.

[Finagle]

The Chinese say he brought noodles back with him to Italy.

Traditional Japanese cuisine with avocado is still unmistakably traditional Japanese cuisine. Just with another option.

Which makes it non-traditional. How about a nice plate of spaghetti with chocolate sauce? Just another option.

[Coppercloud]

How about a nice plate of spaghetti with chocolate sauce? Just another option.

Well, yes, I had it once and it was delicious.

[Peelee]

Which makes it non-traditional. How about a nice plate of spaghetti with chocolate sauce? Just another option.

Imean, yes? Traditional Italian with a new addition. "traditional" is just "it's been this way for x time". You think its gastronomic gentrification, but again, you can say that of Italian cuisine. You only aren't because you live right now, where you're used to Italian cuisine as-is. If Italians start to severe chocolate sauce on spaghetti then soon enough it will cross over from being traditional Italian with a new twist to straight up traditional Italian. Culture is only stagnant when it's dead. Here, let ol' Jolee talk for a bit.

Jolee: "Yeah, that's right, sonny. The Sith are the greatest evil to hit the galaxy since, well, the Mandalorians. And they're the worst thing since Exar Kun. Blah, blah, blah, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera."

Carth: "Okay, old man, you lost me there. Are you trying to make a point?"

Jolee: "Look, everybody always figures the time they live in is the most epic, most important age to end all ages. But tyrants and heroes rise and fall, and historians sort out the pieces."

Player Character: "Are you saying what we're doing isn't important?"

Jolee: "Malak is a tyrant who should be stopped. If he conquers the galaxy we're in for a couple of rough centuries. Eventually it'll come around again, but I'd rather not wait that long. So we do what we have to do, and we try to stop the Sith. But don't start thinking this war—your war—is more important than any other war just because you're in it."

Don't go thinking the currently accepted traditional Japanese cuisine, that you're familiar with, is the purest form of Japanese food and any changes are adulteration. Hell, sushi originated in China, and that's pretty much the stereotype of "traditional Japanese food".

[Ruck]

Close. So-crates.

Was he even the first? That kind of rant is so old there's literally an Old Testament term to describe it.

I do love me some Aristotle though. I swear, he had to be the smartest man who was wrong about just everything.

Well, I do think Poetics has some pretty good basic guidelines for creating an effective drama.

[TaiLiu]

No argument about that from me, but it is truly bizarre that all modern technology runs on the logic rules he wrote down some 2500 year ago.

I dunno. Aristotelian logic looks pretty different from Boolean logic. And the credit for combining Boolean algebra and electrical engineering goes to Claude Shannon.

[H_H_F_F]

I do love me some Aristotle though. I swear, he had to be the smartest man who was wrong about just everything.

Eh, not everything. I think a lot of his argumentation in the Nicomachean Ethics holds up very well, much more so than a lot of more modern ethics. I also think he did a lot of the basic logic work that everyone later evolved from. Shoulders of giants, etc.

I also think that "being wrong about physics" is true of everyone. We understand why Newton's physics were wrong and why they still worked, and model worked very well for a long time before measurements got better, even if the underlying principles were wrong. We still don't understand why the Standard Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is wrong and why it works, but the cracks are starting to show (in my absolutely unqualified opinion).

Aristotle gave them something good enough for around two millennia.

I'm not defending any of the **** he said about women or slaves, but I think he was less often wrong than a lot of great thinkers who managed to dodge such a reputation.

[Tzardok]

*blink* I didn't know Aristoteles had a bad reputation. Certainly didn't come up during philosophy classes.

[Peelee]

Eh, not everything. I think a lot of his argumentation in the Nicomachean Ethics holds up very well, much more so than a lot of more modern ethics. I also think he did a lot of the basic logic work that everyone later evolved from. Shoulders of giants, etc.

I also think that "being wrong about physics" is true of everyone. We understand why Newton's physics were wrong and why they still worked, and model worked very well for a long time before measurements got better, even if the underlying principles were wrong. We still don't understand why the Standard Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is wrong and why it works, but the cracks are starting to show (in my absolutely unqualified opinion).

Aristotle gave them something good enough for around two millennia.

I'm not defending any of the **** he said about women or slaves, but I think he was less often wrong than a lot of great thinkers who managed to dodge such a reputation.

Yes, but you have to understand here - I think I'm funny.

*blink* I didn't know Aristoteles had a bad reputation. Certainly didn't come up during philosophy classes.

He doesn't. Ane enormous amount of what he theorized were very reasonable that we're wrong because he lacked the knowledge base to be correct - see Aristotlean physics. An object's natural state is not at rest, but it sure as hell seems like it is, and proving otherwise is one hell of a feat. Newton had well over a thousand years of scientific advances on Aristotle observations and measurements from Brahe and Kepler and so on and so on. Remember, Newton himself is the origin of the line about standing on the shoulders of giants, and those giants were also on shoulders.

[H_H_F_F]

Yes, but you have to understand here - I think I'm funny.

What a strange thought

[Finagle]

Well, I've got some good arguments to make but I just noticed the moderator badge so I'd better stop now.

[Kish]

He doesn't. Ane enormous amount of what he theorized were very reasonable that we're wrong because he lacked the knowledge base to be correct - see Aristotlean physics. An object's natural state is not at rest, but it sure as hell seems like it is, and proving otherwise is one hell of a feat. Newton had well over a thousand years of scientific advances on Aristotle observations and measurements from Brahe and Kepler and so on and so on. Remember, Newton himself is the origin of the line about standing on the shoulders of giants, and those giants were also on shoulders.

And then, of course, there were the things he theorized because he didn't bother to put forth a tiny amount of effort and realize his premises were incorrect. Like that women's inferiority can be easily observed in them having fewer teeth.

[Peelee]

And then, of course, there were the things he theorized because he didn't bother to put forth a tiny amount of effort and realize his premises were incorrect. Like that women's inferiority can be easily observed in them having fewer teeth.

Behold, a philosophy!

Yes, i know, but it still works for Aristotle.

[H_H_F_F]

And then, of course, there were the things he theorized because he didn't bother to put forth a tiny amount of effort and realize his premises were incorrect. Like that women's inferiority can be easily observed in them having fewer teeth.

That's just not true. Aristotle does have a section in History of Animals in which he discusses teeth; the section seems mostly like a compilation of accepted knowledge, not an independent investigation, with a lot of "it is said, it is known,C said, Y observes".

That section mentions a few species (including humans and pigs) in which males have more teeth than females, and says that disparity is not noted in other species. Nowhere does it say anything about male superiority.

That was bad biology (though again, presumably not done by him), and Aristotle was a misogynist - but he wasn't an idiot, and he never (to my knowledge) made the claim you're attributing to him.

[Ionathus]

I love this observation, someone pointed it out to me semi-recently and it's such a wonderful little detail.

Also RE: the goblins' place among the damned -- I think the roaches are pro-guacamole, but so anti-oboe that this outweighs the benefits of tasty avacado dips/spreads.

Which is fair. Double-reed instruments are the pinnacle of Sturgeon's Law: beautiful when done correctly, but terrible in the hands of a beginner. There's the old concert band joke:

"How do you get 2 oboes in tune?"
"Break one."

[137beth]

Behold, a philosophy!

Yes, i know, but it still works for Aristotle.

The goblins' true crime was inventing Play-Doh, thereby inadvertently creating this "Behold a philosophy" expression.

[gbaji]

I will say that guacamole, when made correctly is delicious. Sadly, there are a lot of products out there, that are the correct color for guacamole, and even have the word "guacamole" on the packaging, but are not anything I would call guacamole. Protip: If it's thin and runny...? It's not guacamole.

Alternate side parking is evil because inevitably, it's always on the "other side", based on the direction you are going. And, equally inevitably, will result in numbskulls trying to park backwards, or making turns in the middle of the residential street, or otherwise just compounding the evil involved. A slightly less evil variant is angled parking, which, in theory, could be a good thing, but made evil by people who don't seem to grasp the purpose and try do do things like back into the spaces or something.

I have no real comment on the oboe though.