The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas

[Kish]

Count another vote for reword.

[SaintRidley]

I'm in favor of keeping it, actually. Namely, the actual quote implies that technical feasibility wasn't the issue, the Giant just didn't want them shown in the first place. So we still don't know why he changed his mind.


I'd be in favor of an asterisk that says "Hey, the Giant changed his mind on this, but we're not sure why." Definitely don't remove it, though. Keeping track of how the Giant's views have changed over time is, in my opinion, one of the more interesting aspects of this thread.

Yup. Hence my stance that we shouldn't be deleting old stuff just because he changes his mind or whatever.

Whatever the current thing we're voting on is, I'm in favor of keeping as much of everything as possible. So reword, but with an indication that at some point the Giant has changed his mind.

[Gwynfrid]

Yup. Hence my stance that we shouldn't be deleting old stuff just because he changes his mind or whatever.

Whatever the current thing we're voting on is, I'm in favor of keeping as much of everything as possible. So reword, but with an indication that at some point the Giant has changed his mind.

This is where we see differences of opinion. Yours is pretty much the opposite of my take. I don't think the Index is meant to track the Giant's changes of mind (assuming that's what this is). So, I'm in favor of keeping only the quotes that have relevance at the present time, and removing those that become obsolete as the comic progresses.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'd say I'm in favor of keeping but rewording the entry, unless we get some sort of updating quote from the Giant along the lines of "Yeah, that was my opinion but it changed". Even though the quote itself doesn't accurately describe how the titles are currently portrayed, it's still an insight as to why the titles weren't shown prior to know and generally how the Giant feels about them.

[Ron Miel]

Yup. Hence my stance that we shouldn't be deleting old stuff just because he changes his mind or whatever. ... So reword, but with an indication that at some point the Giant has changed his mind.

The rules disagree with you.

Rule D: If two quotes seem to contradict each other, only the quote that illustrates Rich's most recent and current opinion or position will be included.

In general terms, we should not keep track of the Giant changing his mind. What he used to think, and why he changed, is specifically against the rules.

In this specific instance, he has not issued an actual quote changing his mind, but has taken actions. His actions show that he has changed his mind on this point. And changing his mind is not something this thread should track.

And note that it will still be in archived versions of the thread. In the unlikely event that you need to look it up, you can still find it easily enough.

Restating my vote for deletion.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Restating my vote for deletion.

So am I: delete the outdated entry.

And if that doesn't have the votes, at least make the disclaimer that the quote is outdated far more visible. Red, bold, both, or something else beyond a parenthetical at the end that is indistinguishable from the description.

Grey Wolf

[Doug Lampert]

So am I: delete the outdated entry.

And if that doesn't have the votes, at least make the disclaimer that the quote is outdated far more visible. Red, bold, both, or something else beyond a parenthetical at the end that is indistinguishable from the description.

Grey Wolf

I'll also vote deletion, the quote is obsolete, and there are enough quotes in the index that I've had cases of knowing the exact words I'll looking for, and having real trouble finding the quote. Keeping it down to a usable size has value of its own.

[Ron Miel]

Are we actually formally voting? Looking back, I don't think its formal yet.

[Jasdoif]

Are we actually formally voting?

No.

But knowing in advance who is/isn't in favor of removing it will be helpful (I feel confident that I can expect at least five questions from the next Patreon Q&A to be included as entries, and that the volume may bury discussion on this quote); and if that's expressed via informal vote, that's fine with me.

[Fyraltari]

Welp I'm convinced, I'm moving my position from reword to delete.

[Personification]

I think there are still several reasons for keeping, the most compelling of which is that the quote also talks about the logic behind the titles. Plus, there technically isn't a contradictory quote, it's just that something must have changed. If the giant says that he changed his mind, then I might vote replacement, because the new quote would obsolete the old one, but that hasn't happened yet.

[Emanick]

Okay; so a reword would be like....

Why the Strip Titles Weren't On the Strip Pages The titles are "bonus" jokes; The Giant prefers not to put them above the strip itself. (As of the 2020 server migration, the strip titles are visible below the strips)

#759

2010/11/20

Am I missing anything?

I think that this is perfectly fine and I'm happy with it remaining as it is.

[pearl jam]

I'm generally an inclusionist and looking at rule D now, I think it seems too absolutist. If the goal is supporting forum discussion, it seems quite possible that there could be cases where showing an evolution of opinion over time would be more beneficial than only showing the current position.

On the other hand, thinking about this specific quote, it doesn't really seem all that necessary to keep this one as anyone asking about thread titles would be asking why they *are* shown now, which the quote doesn't really address and could simply be answered by saying that when they revamped the forums they added the titles at the bottom as they appear in the books.

[Darth V]

Why the Strip Titles Aren't Above the Strip The titles are "bonus" jokes; The Giant prefers not to put them above the strip itself.

#759

2010/11/20

Who wants the entry reworded, and who wants the entry removed? The two are not exclusive, of course; I can reword it well in advance of the next update cycle, at which time we could vote on whether or not to remove it.

Bolding mine.

Please reword, and then remove.

More serious: It's obviously obsolet, so i'm in favor of removing it. But reword it first!

[Peelee]

Bolding mine.

Please reword, and then remove.

Got a good laugh out of me.

[Schroeswald]

And for Schroeswald's second annual monthly here's the Giants answers post, here's the giants latest pattern answers and what I, some dude, thinks of them:
1. The giant shadowy sea monster from DStP's bonus strips was the ABD, I'll call that a weak yes because I didn't know what it was when I read them but I also only read them and not the rest of the story when I read them.
2.Rich likes Sci-Fi, not a big fan of horror, interesting knowledge about him I guess but not OOTS related, No.
3. Stuff about the Greenhilt family sword, I think its interesting but I'm not really sure about if it has a clear point, so maybe, but open to persuasion either way.
4. What happened to Kubota's stuff, I've never really wondered about but others might have? Maybe
5. Mrs. The Giant helps to proofread every strip and The Giant talks over plots with her (but don't blame her for the typos, Rich has so many its impossible to fix them all). I'd say this is pretty interesting, Yes.
6. Elan's music is sort of to the tune of Row, row row your boat, while funny, not really sure
7. Malack's snaky half wasn't a secret, kept secret mostly for trademark, I'm gonna fall on the side of no, open to being convinced.
8. How Rich is doing under COVID, not particularly comic relevant or of long-lasting value, no.
9. SS&DT PDF will probably be out in May, quick add until either its out or May is over.
10. How Blacking become a major character, pretty good, yes (also important Mr. Scruffy's role was planned before Shojo died)
11. Greyview's job is to show that MitD won't backslide into apathy and what he was before O-Chul, definitely yes, never thought of this before.

[Gwynfrid]

I would include them all except the two that aren't comic related (#2 and 8). Then there's #9, it will have such a short shelf life that I would skip it. But there's no harm in adding it then removing it in a few weeks.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I had thought that 1) was answered in the book commentary, but after rereading it, I guess it somewhat vague. I think overall I still lean against including that one. Other than that I agree with Gwynfrid. I suppose for #9 it depends on when exactly in May things happen and if Jasdoif feels like its worth putting in.

[Joerg]

I'm not sure about 1 and 7,would include 3 - 6, 10 and 11.

[Fyraltari]

1 - Yes
2 - Yes
3 - Yes
4 - Yes
5 - Yes
6 - Yes
7 - Yes
8 - No
9 - No
10 - Yes
11 - Yes

[ti'esar]

7 should absolutely be included, although it just makes me more confused as to what the heck Malack actually was.

[Peelee]

7 should absolutely be included, although it just makes me more confused as to what the heck Malack actually was.

Snake creature, similar to a yuan-ti abomination, but not one of those.

[Jasdoif]

First, a link to the Patreon page.

Anyway, so we're at....

#	Question	In Favor	Against	Disposition	Voters
1	"What was the giant shadowy sea monster that scared off the giant crab during the underwater section in the bonus pages of dont split the party?" (The ancient black dragon.)	3	1	Include	In Favor: Schroeswald, Gwynfrid, Fyraltari Against: Jaxzan Proditor
2	"Outside of fantasy, which is clearly a genre you have a lot of experience and input on, are there other genres of fiction you have considered exploring? Have you ever considered writing something in the realm of sci-fi or horror?" (Sci-fi. Not horror.)	1	4	Exclude	In Favor: Fyraltari Against: Schroeswald, Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Joerg
3	"What's the deal with the Greenhilt sword? I mean, was it magic when the adventure starts? I'd venture that yes, since Roy's grandpa, being a high level warrior, probably wouldn't have gone so far with a normal sword. But then, it was broken by the spell Shatter, which can't break magic objects. But, then again, it is possible you brewed a houserule, so I don't know. Then it got improved by the starmetal sidequest, ok, but this legacy stuff: since when is that a thing? Was it within the whole time or was it something (or even the colective of things) Roy did?" (Magical earlier, legacy now.)	4	0	Include	In Favor: Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Joerg, Fyraltari Against:
4	"After Daiymo Kubota met his elfen end, was his House absorbed by the rest of the Azurite nobles, or did they find an heir that was more loyal to Lord Hinjo?" (Nationalized.)	4	0	Include	In Favor: Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Joerg, Fyraltari Against:
5	"Do you have anyone who you go over the story with, or show your comic to before posting to get feedback on plot development, characters staying in character, or even basic proofreading?" (Married to her.)	5	0	Include	In Favor: Schroeswald, Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Joerg, Fyraltari Against:
6	"Is there an official tune I can sing, sing, sing, Elan's songs too?" (Sort of a mutant row row row your boat.)	4	0	Include	In Favor: Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Joerg, Fyraltari Against:
7	"I assume the reason Malack's "snakey" lower half was kept a secret to the reader was for the sake of the battle with Durkon, but is there an in-universe reason why he would hide it? Or was it not even meant to be a secret?" (Sidestepping yuan-ti.)	4	1	Include	In Favor: Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Fyraltari, ti'esar Against: Schroeswald
8	"How are you doing with the whole COVID thing? I hope you're well and keeping safe and healthy. The same goes for all the other OOTS fans too." (Quite well for now.)	0	5	Exclude	In Favor: Against: Schroeswald, Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Joerg, Fyraltari
9	"Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales has been out of stock at Ookoodook for a while now, any ETA on the pdf version?" (Probably May.)	1	2	Vote-able	In Favor: Schroeswald Against: Joerg, Fyraltari
10	"What drove you to make Blackwing a deeper and more relevant character as the comic went on? Was that growth planned ahead of time? If not, did that change lead to a different philosophy or larger role for other animals (ie Mr. Scruffy, Bloodfeast) in the Order?" (Dialog sounding board for Vaarsuvius, after hitting peak comedy on the forgotten familiar shtick.)	5	0	Include	In Favor: Schroeswald, Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Joerg, Fyraltari Against:
11	"How did you get the idea to have Greyview be the way he is? The grimdark outlook Russian accent just slays me and he's endlessly quotable." (To serve as a foil for MitD by being the opposite of O-Chul.)	5	0	Include	In Favor: Schroeswald, Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Joerg, Fyraltari Against:

Spoiler: By Individual

Show

Voter	01	02	03	04	05	06	07	08	09	10	11
Schroeswald
Gwynfrid
Jaxzan Proditor
Joerg
Fyraltari
ti'esar

And...looks like a slight edge on having a vote to remove the comic title entry.

Question	Keep Its	Remove Its	Posters
Should we keep the entry about comic titles?	6	8	Keepers: mjp1050, Joerg, 137ben, SaintRidley, Jaxzan Proditor, Personification (Some Sort of Quidditch Reference in Opposition to Keepers?): Grey_Wolf_c, littlebum2002, Gwynfrid, Ron Miel, Doug Lampert, Fyraltari, pearl jam, Darth V

[Ron Miel]

No 2 - include this as a 'see also' with his previous comments about plans for projects post OOTS.

No 9 - exclude. It will be published soon. No point including the quote only to have to vote on deleting it in a few weeks.

[Gwynfrid]

No 2 - include this as a 'see also' with his previous comments about plans for projects post OOTS.

That’s a good solution.

[SaintRidley]

The rules disagree with you.

Rule D: If two quotes seem to contradict each other, only the quote that illustrates Rich's most recent and current opinion or position will be included.

In general terms, we should not keep track of the Giant changing his mind. What he used to think, and why he changed, is specifically against the rules.

In this specific instance, he has not issued an actual quote changing his mind, but has taken actions. His actions show that he has changed his mind on this point. And changing his mind is not something this thread should track.

And note that it will still be in archived versions of the thread. In the unlikely event that you need to look it up, you can still find it easily enough.

Restating my vote for deletion.

I'm aware the rules disagree with me. Or rather, I disagree with the rules and would remove that rule in a heartbeat if I could have it my way.

Anyway, put 2 as a cf. on the future projects one and no need for 8 at all, I agree with the broad consensus there.

[Jasdoif]

Alright, that brings us to....

---

Spoiler: Summary

Show

#	Question	In Favor	Against	Disposition	Voters
1	"What was the giant shadowy sea monster that scared off the giant crab during the underwater section in the bonus pages of dont split the party?" (The ancient black dragon.)	3	1	Include	In Favor: Schroeswald, Gwynfrid, Fyraltari Against: Jaxzan Proditor
2	"Outside of fantasy, which is clearly a genre you have a lot of experience and input on, are there other genres of fiction you have considered exploring? Have you ever considered writing something in the realm of sci-fi or horror?" (Sci-fi. Not horror.)	3	4	Vote-able	In Favor: Fyraltari, Ron Miel, SaintRidley Against: Schroeswald, Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Joerg
3	"What's the deal with the Greenhilt sword? I mean, was it magic when the adventure starts? I'd venture that yes, since Roy's grandpa, being a high level warrior, probably wouldn't have gone so far with a normal sword. But then, it was broken by the spell Shatter, which can't break magic objects. But, then again, it is possible you brewed a houserule, so I don't know. Then it got improved by the starmetal sidequest, ok, but this legacy stuff: since when is that a thing? Was it within the whole time or was it something (or even the colective of things) Roy did?" (Magical earlier, legacy now.)	4	0	Include	In Favor: Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Joerg, Fyraltari Against:
4	"After Daiymo Kubota met his elfen end, was his House absorbed by the rest of the Azurite nobles, or did they find an heir that was more loyal to Lord Hinjo?" (Nationalized.)	4	0	Include	In Favor: Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Joerg, Fyraltari Against:
5	"Do you have anyone who you go over the story with, or show your comic to before posting to get feedback on plot development, characters staying in character, or even basic proofreading?" (Married to her.)	5	0	Include	In Favor: Schroeswald, Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Joerg, Fyraltari Against:
6	"Is there an official tune I can sing, sing, sing, Elan's songs too?" (Sort of a mutant row row row your boat.)	4	0	Include	In Favor: Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Joerg, Fyraltari Against:
7	"I assume the reason Malack's "snakey" lower half was kept a secret to the reader was for the sake of the battle with Durkon, but is there an in-universe reason why he would hide it? Or was it not even meant to be a secret?" (Sidestepping yuan-ti.)	4	1	Include	In Favor: Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Fyraltari, ti'esar Against: Schroeswald
8	"How are you doing with the whole COVID thing? I hope you're well and keeping safe and healthy. The same goes for all the other OOTS fans too." (Quite well for now.)	0	6	Exclude	In Favor: Against: Schroeswald, Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Joerg, Fyraltari, SaintRidley
9	"Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales has been out of stock at Ookoodook for a while now, any ETA on the pdf version?" (Probably May.)	1	3	Exclude	In Favor: Schroeswald Against: Joerg, Fyraltari, Ron Miel
10	"What drove you to make Blackwing a deeper and more relevant character as the comic went on? Was that growth planned ahead of time? If not, did that change lead to a different philosophy or larger role for other animals (ie Mr. Scruffy, Bloodfeast) in the Order?" (Dialog sounding board for Vaarsuvius, after hitting peak comedy on the forgotten familiar shtick.)	5	0	Include	In Favor: Schroeswald, Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Joerg, Fyraltari Against:
11	"How did you get the idea to have Greyview be the way he is? The grimdark outlook Russian accent just slays me and he's endlessly quotable." (To serve as a foil for MitD by being the opposite of O-Chul.)	5	0	Include	In Favor: Schroeswald, Gwynfrid, Jaxzan Proditor, Joerg, Fyraltari Against:

Spoiler: By Individual

Show

Voter	01	02	03	04	05	06	07	08	09	10	11
Schroeswald
Gwynfrid
Jaxzan Proditor
Joerg
Fyraltari
ti'esar
Ron Miel
SaintRidley

---

Bit of movement in there, "What other genres have you considered exploring?" being in the vote-able range and "When can we get SS&DT again?" being excluded....Anyway, the new/updated entries for the next update cycle are currently looking like:

Tentative Updates for Index 6.4
🍌Malack's "'Snakey' Lower Half" Was Not Intentionally a Secret(#7) "The thing is, there is a slightly different type of 'snake person' in D&D that's one of those monsters that has been trademarked, so it was better to gloss over that detail in dialogue."	#1201	2020/04/30	Tenative, appears will be included without vote.
🍌On Greyview's Personality(#11) The main idea was to give the Monster in the Darkness a counterpoint to everything O-Chul told him, to show that he had internalized the lessons and wasn't going to backslide.	#1201	2020/04/30	Tenative, appears will be included without vote.
🍌On the Expansion of Blackwing's Role(#10) "Blackwing provided someone who would already know everything that had happened and could serve as V's confidant...And second, I felt like the moment when Blackwing popped into existence to carry Xykon's phylactery was the pinnacle of that particular running joke."	#1201	2020/04/30	Tenative, appears will be included without vote.
🍌On the Greenhilt Sword(#3) It was magical in the beginning, despite the Shatter. The legacy powers "did not exist until recently".	#1201	2020/04/30	Tenative, appears will be included without vote.
🍌The "Official" Elan Song Tune(#4) "I think of it as being similar to Row, Row, Row Your Boat, except with four rows and an extra repeat at the end, like: Row, row, row, row your boat, your boat-boat."	#1201	2020/04/30	Tenative, appears will be included without vote.
🍌The "Shadowy Sea Monster" in the Don't Split the Party Bonus Strips was the Ancient Black Dragon(#1) "...I wrote that sequence while the story was in progress and then cut it. So it was intended as foreshadowing for events that hadn't happened yet at that time."	#1201	2020/04/30	Tenative, appears will be included without vote.
🍌The End of House Kubota(#4) "...the house was probably disbanded and his remaining assets seized by Hinjo to be used setting up the town seen in the first story of Good Deeds Gone Unpunished."	#1201	2020/04/30	Tenative, appears will be included without vote.
🍌The Giant Has a Sounding Board(#5)	#1201	2020/04/30	Tenative, appears will be included without vote.
🍍🍌The Giant on Future Projects(#10) "I 100% fully expect to continue writing after OOTS is finished....What form that writing takes is still uncertain." See also here(#2): "I have definitely considered science fiction, yes....I have zero interest in horror, however."	#1193	2020/03/01	Tenative, appears will be eligible for vote.

---

Any comments on titles/descriptions/etc.? And I'm still accepting input on any of those questions from the Patreon post, as well as whether or not the entry about the comic titles should be (voted on to be) removed....

[littlebum2002]

I agree with the group: I vote to include all the green ones and exclude the red and yellow ones.

[137beth]

No 2 - include this as a 'see also' with his previous comments about plans for projects post OOTS.

No 9 - exclude. It will be published soon. No point including the quote only to have to vote on deleting it in a few weeks.

I agree with both of these. I'd also support including all of them as their own entries except 2, 8, and 9.

[Reboot]

On Q11... isn't "As far as influencing the other animals, you have it backwards: Mr. Scruffy came first. I had his role planned out before Shojo was even killed." worthy of note?