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  1. - Top - End - #301
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    As far as I can tell:

    Unavenger: LL against Korith and Tom the Mime, WL against ninjaman. 3

    Tom the Mime: WW against Korith and Unavenger, WL against ninjaman. 15

    Korith: WW against Unavenger, LL against Tom the Mime and ninjaman. 6

    Ninjaman: WW against Korith, WL against Tom the Mime and Unavenger. 12
    Being a mime means never having to say you're sorry.

  2. - Top - End - #302
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Turn 1 Burning Inquiry beats everyone, so I win all my games on the play.
    Korith can't play his stuff until his second turn, so he loses to Inquiry on the play too.
    Unavenger's Scepter handily beats me on the draw since he can just shoot the spirit forever to gain infinite life, and then kill me. It's possible that he can race, I don't want to do the math since he wins anyways.
    I think tom gets me at 10 poison counters while I have him on 4 life when he's on the play, since Inkmoth starts swinging on turn 2, Nether spirit starts swinging turn 3, and both have ten turn clocks.
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  3. - Top - End - #303
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Well, I knew I'd fall hard against Turn 1 (or 2) disruption. I guess there was enough in the meta :p
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  4. - Top - End - #304
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    I OTOH noticed a slight dip in actual disruption and, knowing I could get everything out of my hand T1, decided to at least try a deck which could beat creature-based aggro, which worked precisely once. I did have an impact on the results, I guess...

  5. - Top - End - #305
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    So Strip Mine, Wasteland, and Ghost Quarter are banned. Any other T1 land distribution effects, or can the Nephilim be played now?
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  6. - Top - End - #306
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    So Strip Mine, Wasteland, and Ghost Quarter are banned. Any other T1 land distribution effects, or can the Nephilim be played now?
    None as strong as Wasteland, as far as I know. But there is still Encroach, a sorcery for {B} to force discarding a nonbasic land. And Burning Inquiry is still in too.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2020-03-09 at 12:27 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #307
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Those don't do anything once they hit the field though. You can technically play field of ruin T1 I think but then you're stuck with 2 mox and can't do anything. Plays fine T2 (and would've been functionally very similar in my deck but I didn't really want wasteland still around if I won) but it restricts your threat base to manlands and Inkmoth is gone now (or 2 cmc with depletion land and T3 land destruction). Is T3 land destruction worth a lower cost creature? Depends on the meta but probably not yet given the slowness also leaves you vulnerable to discard.

    There might still be T1 land destruction available still but if there is, I'm pretty sure r using it will impose bigger restrictions on the deck to make it work.
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  8. - Top - End - #308
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    So Strip Mine, Wasteland, and Ghost Quarter are banned. Any other T1 land distribution effects, or can the Nephilim be played now?
    At a glance, Waste Land (from the Mystery Booster) sort of could work against anyone depending on their nonbasic lands producing colors or more than one mana. Field of Ruin might be viable but needs to be built around with 2 more mana from another source to work (and FoR + Mox + Mox leaves you without a wincon)
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  9. - Top - End - #309
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    None as strong as Wasteland, as far as I know. But there is still Encroach, a sorcery for {B} to force discarding a nonbasic land. And Burning Inquiry is still in too.
    Encroach is worse than Thoughtseize, and Field seems super niche. Burning Inquiry is good and all, whether with Memnite or Nether Spirit or whatever, but that's another category of threat altogether.
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  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Results of Return round 13.

    First: Tom the Mime
    Second place: Ninjaman
    Third place: Korith
    Fourth place: Unavenger

    Thank you Tom and Ninjaman for judging, and thanks to all players who submitted decks for keeping the game thread alive.

    Ban list for Return round 14.
    Spoiler: Ban list for Return round 13
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    Land: Bayou; Blackcleave Cliffs; Blooming Marsh; Celestial Colonnade; City of Traitors; Geier Reach Sanitarium; Ghost Quarter; Hall of Heliod's Generosity; Inkmoth Nexus; Karakas; Maze of Ith; Mishra's Factory; Mishra's Workshop; Shelldock Isle; Strip Mine; Tropical Island; Wasteland.

    Artifact/Colourless: Black Lotus; Blacker Lotus; Chronomaton; Dispatch Dispensary; Emrakul, the Aeons Torn; Karn, the Great Creator; Lion's Eye Diamond; Liquimetal Coating; Lodestone Golem; Lotus Petal; Lupine Prototype; Mana Crypt; Mirrored Lotus; Mox Emerald; Mox Pearl; Mox Sapphire; Sol Ring; The Rack; Time Vault; Voltaic Key.

    White: Chancellor of the Annex; History of Benalia; Serra Ascendant; Thalia, Guardian of Thraben; The Cheese Stands Alone.

    Blue: Jace, Wielder of Mysteries; Laboratory Maniac; Leyline of Anticipation; Piracy Charm; Thassa's Oracle.

    Black: Blackmail; Cabal Therapy; Mind Swords; Spike, Tournament Grinder; Street Wraith.

    Red: Wrench-Rigger.

    Green: Collector Ouphe; Crashing Footfalls; Living Wish; Llanowar Mentor; Young Wolf.

    Gold: Meddling Mage; Research // Development.

    Please submit decks for Return round 14 to me in forum private message. Please mention that they're for round 14. Note that I probably won't be hosting Return round 16.

    Please continue to propose the special rule for round 15 in this thread, so that we can pick one in time. Korith: I'm a bit afraid that conspiracies would make the decks too powerful. It's a lot like when we had Impatient Iguana and lotuses in the card pool.

  11. - Top - End - #311
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    I will freeze the decks for Return round 14 on Tuesday evening, at 2020-03-17 21:00 UTC, and reveal the decks shortly after. Please submit your decks by that time.

  12. - Top - End - #312
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Korith: I'm a bit afraid that conspiracies would make the decks too powerful. It's a lot like when we had Impatient Iguana and lotuses in the card pool.
    While there is absolutely an "Impatient Iguana" Conspiracy that could be chosen, I have my doubts about Sovereigns Realm being on that level (sure, you could try to run Sovereigns Realm + Summer Bloom, but all you've got to play with then is the card you exiled to set up Sovereigns Realm)
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  13. - Top - End - #313
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    The bigger deal with Sovereigns Realm is because it lets you play situational cards that are strong in different circumstances but useless at others. For example, running leyline of sanctity, path to exile and a threat. One is better for creature disruption, one for noncreature disruption and you get to pick based on the other deck. This isn't the list I'd go with but versatility is strong. There's a reason most decks that have needed a sideboard have also won. That said, I think it's still okay for the round because the strong conspiracies have answers to each other you can work things around.
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  14. - Top - End - #314
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Revealing the decks of Return round 14. You finally broke the curse of only four decks each round, thank you.

    Fable Wright: Rushwood Grove, Channel, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre.
    Unavenger: Ancient Tomb, Isochron Scepter, Lightning Helix.
    Ninjaman: Oko, Thief of Crowns, Treetop Village, Simic Growth Chamber.
    Korith: Leyline of the Meek, Leyline of the Void, Chancellor of the Forge.
    Tom the Mime: Taiga, Raze, Skyshroud Cutter.
    Personification: Mountain, Burning Inquiry, Basking Rootwalla.

    If nobody argues against it, then Return round 15 will be a special Conspiracy round, where you choose a main deck of three cards and a command deck made of a Conspiracy card.

    The following rulings are preliminary, and I'd like to ask Tom or whichever players will do the judgings to speak up if they would like different rulings.
    • The Conspiracy card has effect despite that this is a constructed format and such cards are usually used in limited formats only.
    • However, the effect of Worldknit (Conspiracy) is tied to the limited format too much, so that Conspiracy is banned, you can't submit a deck with that in the command zone.
    • For playing with hidden agenda cards, you already have full information about the opponent's deck and choices when you choose the card name. If both players have a card with hidden agenda, then the starting player chooses a card name first, then the other player chooses knowing the hidden choice that the starting player made.
    • When choosing a card name, you may choose the name of any card released by Wizards that isn't banned in Return of Vanishing 3CB.
    • If both players choose Power Play or Impatient Iguana, then they cancel each other out, so the player that would normally have been the starting player remains the starting player.


    As a reminder, do not send deck submissions for Return round 16 (the round after the special Conspiracy round) to me, because I probably won't be the host starting from that round.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2020-03-17 at 07:01 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #315
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    The land destruction discussion got me thinking about if there were any normal cards that could manage T1 land destruction while still getting a threat out.

    I think the results are:

    X TtM FW U P K N
    Tom the Mime X WW WW WL DD WW 23
    Fable Wright LL X WL WW WW WW 21
    Unavenger LL WL X WL WW DD 14
    Personification WL LL WL X LL WW 12
    Korith DD LL LL WW X LL 8
    Ninjaman LL LL DD LL WW X 8

    Fable Wright playing a storage land rather than a depletion land really cost them because it let Unavenger deal exactly enough on play to stop being able to get enough mana from channel and they would've taken the round otherwise (assuming the above results are correct).

    With Worldknit, I can see how you could rule it either way but it seems like the right call. While the effect is fine, it'd basically be saying that it was a 4 card cube draft and you picked out these cards and that conspiracy and the precedent for other cards that care about drafting could get messy. The combo I'm thinking of with it can still be done without it, just not quite as robustly.

    All the other rulings seem more straightforward and make sense.
    Last edited by Tom the Mime; 2020-03-18 at 02:38 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #316
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    How do I lose to Unavenger? Oko can turn the Sceptor into an Elk, and treetop village can trade with it until I get my own Elk.
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  17. - Top - End - #317
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    How do I lose to Unavenger? Oko can turn the Sceptor into an Elk, and treetop village can trade with it until I get my own Elk.
    Looking at it again, I think it's DD actually. Before Oko elking the scepter resolves, Oko gets helixed with the scepter and then gets swung at by the elk which can't be blocked by the village because you're tapped out. You can still use treetop village afterwards which is what I forgot so you're both stuck with a single 3/3 and can't get through.
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  18. - Top - End - #318
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom the Mime View Post
    Looking at it again, I think it's DD actually. Before Oko elking the scepter resolves, Oko gets helixed with the scepter and then gets swung at by the elk which can't be blocked by the village because you're tapped out. You can still use treetop village afterwards which is what I forgot so you're both stuck with a single 3/3 and can't get through.
    Makes sense.
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  19. - Top - End - #319
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom the Mime View Post
    Fable Wright playing a storage land rather than a depletion land really cost them because it let Unavenger deal exactly enough on play to stop being able to get enough mana from channel and they would've taken the round otherwise (assuming the above results are correct).
    Blah. For some reason I forgot Ulamog cost 11, not 10. I went for the storage land to deal with a predicted discard strategy. Ah well.
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  20. - Top - End - #320
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    I think I draw on the play vs Tom as I can hold up the helix to kill the cutter in response to the raze? Not that it makes me do any better, but...
    Last edited by Unavenger; 2020-03-18 at 03:18 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #321
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    I think I draw on the play vs Tom as I can hold up the helix to kill the cutter in response to the raze? Not that it makes me do any better, but...
    How do you cast the Helix with 2 colorless mana?
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  22. - Top - End - #322
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    How do you cast the Helix with 2 colorless mana?
    Oh, I was thinking I had the mana to use it with the scepter but I can't because I actually have to cast the scepter. Ignore me I'm being silly.

  23. - Top - End - #323
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Results of Return round 14.

    First: Tom the Mime
    Second place: Fable Wright
    Third place: Unavenger
    Fourth place: Personification
    Fifth place: Korith, Ninjaman

    Tom the Mime: thank you for judging.

    Ban list for Return round 15.
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    Land: Bayou; Blackcleave Cliffs; Blooming Marsh; Celestial Colonnade; City of Traitors; Geier Reach Sanitarium; Ghost Quarter; Hall of Heliod's Generosity; Inkmoth Nexus; Karakas; Maze of Ith; Mishra's Factory; Mishra's Workshop; Shelldock Isle; Strip Mine; Taiga; Tropical Island; Wasteland.

    Artifact/Colourless: Black Lotus; Blacker Lotus; Chronomaton; Dispatch Dispensary; Emrakul, the Aeons Torn; Karn, the Great Creator; Lion's Eye Diamond; Liquimetal Coating; Lodestone Golem; Lotus Petal; Lupine Prototype; Mana Crypt; Mirrored Lotus; Mox Emerald; Mox Pearl; Mox Sapphire; Sol Ring; The Rack; Time Vault; Voltaic Key.

    White: Chancellor of the Annex; History of Benalia; Serra Ascendant; Thalia, Guardian of Thraben; The Cheese Stands Alone.

    Blue: Jace, Wielder of Mysteries; Laboratory Maniac; Leyline of Anticipation; Piracy Charm; Thassa's Oracle.

    Black: Blackmail; Cabal Therapy; Mind Swords; Spike, Tournament Grinder; Street Wraith.

    Red: Raze; Wrench-Rigger.

    Green: Collector Ouphe; Crashing Footfalls; Living Wish; Llanowar Mentor; Skyshroud Cutter; Young Wolf.

    Gold: Meddling Mage; Research // Development.


    Return round 15 is a special conspiracy round.
    • Your submission shall have a main deck of 3 cards, plus a single conspiracy card that starts in your command zone. Conspiracies are not normally allowed in our 3CB, this round is an exception.
    • Your submission may also have a sideboard of three cards if any cards let you access it, and/or a contraption deck of one card if any card lets you access it. The most important case for this round is Sovereign's Realm, a conspiracy that lets you play basic lands from that sideboard. I forgot to bring up Sovereign's Real before, so if you don't agree with this ruling, please speak up quickly.
    • Worldknit is banned, you can't choose that as your conspiracy.
    • For playing with hidden agenda cards, you already have full information about the opponent's deck and choices when you choose the card name. If both players have a card with hidden agenda, then the starting player chooses a card name first, then the other player chooses knowing the hidden choice that the starting player made.
    • When choosing a card name, you may choose the name of any card released by Wizards that isn't banned in Return of Vanishing 3CB.
    • If both players choose Power Play or Impatient Iguana, then they cancel each other out, so the player that would normally have been the starting player remains the starting player.
    • Other rules and rulings of our 3CB still apply.

    Please submit decks for Return round 15 (conspiracy round) to me in forum private message. Please mention that they're for round 15. Note that I probably won't be hosting Return round 16.

    If anyone wants to host future rounds, please speak up.

  24. - Top - End - #324
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Why is Sovereign's Realm legal but Worldknit not?
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Why is Sovereign's Realm legal but Worldknit not?
    Worldknit wouldn't make sense in constructed, even in a saner constructed format that has a more reasonable deck size. Its cost relies on that in limited, you have to take extra cards from a draft or sealed or cube pool that you wouldn't want to put in your deck. Sovereign's Realm would still work in a constructed format. In fact its cost would be more serious in a sane constructed format than in a limited format, because in construced you have to build your 15 card sideboard around it, while in limited those basic lands don't influence what else you have in your sideboard. But more importantly, Sovereign's Realm is legal because nobody suggested that we should ban it, and it's too late to change that now. Admittedly Korith did suggest that Worldknit should be legal too.

  26. - Top - End - #326
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Worldknit wouldn't make sense in constructed, even in a saner constructed format that has a more reasonable deck size. Its cost relies on that in limited, you have to take extra cards from a draft or sealed or cube pool that you wouldn't want to put in your deck. Sovereign's Realm would still work in a constructed format. In fact its cost would be more serious in a sane constructed format than in a limited format, because in construced you have to build your 15 card sideboard around it, while in limited those basic lands don't influence what else you have in your sideboard. But more importantly, Sovereign's Realm is legal because nobody suggested that we should ban it, and it's too late to change that now. Admittedly Korith did suggest that Worldknit should be legal too.
    Sovereign's Realm is like Worldknit, but better in every way except it doesn't let Maze of Ith tap for mana. I just don't see the point of having one but not the other.
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    How is Worldknit too good?
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Sovereign's Realm is like Worldknit, but better in every way except it doesn't let Maze of Ith tap for mana. I just don't see the point of having one but not the other.
    1. Firstly, 3CB is an inherently broken format, because M:tG cards are just not designed for this situation. We don't ban cards depending on whether they're too powerful or not, except through the usual mechanism of banning cards that were in winning decks. We may sometimes ban a card if it makes judging hard, either in the sense that we can't figure out what its rules mean, or because it opens up too many possibilities of strategy (Richard Garfield, Ph.D. is the prototypical example of the latter). So I don't care about whether Sovereign's Realm is better than Worldknit or not.

    2. Secondly, I am somewhat limited in making judgements about single cards while I'm a host. I sometimes receive deck submissions in advance, so I can't make judgements on which cards are too powerful without potentially leaking information about decks submitted to me. This is especially likely in this case, when we're talking about a Conspiracy, the pool of conspiracies is really small, and there was only one serious proposal for what the special rule would be, so anyone may have submitted a conspiracy in advance. I did care about how some conspiracies may be too powerful, so much that they'd warp the format, which is why I suggested not to hold a conspiracy special round, but you all convinced me otherwise. I would also care about a conspiracy round in general being too hard to judge, which is why we shouldn't hold a conspiracy round, but I'm not active in judging anyway, and the players who do the judging were in favor of a conspiracy round, it did happen.

    3. Thirdly, I specifically tried to post the judgements of the conspiracy special rounds in advance. I asked you players to speak up about them if you don't like them. I think I even left enough time for it. I said that Worldknit is banned, and you didn't complain. Perhaps it was a bad call from me anyway. Admittedly I should probably have said explicitly that Sovereign's Realm is allowed and how it works, because that judgement is not clear. These may be partly my fault. The 3CB sideboard rules seem black magic to me (curse you, Booster Tutor), which is why I couldn't figure out how these cards should work. Also I dislike special rounds, and especially dislike ones similar to the Conspiracy one where decks get to be more complex for free. That said, you all could have asked a judgement for Sovereign's Realm too if you thought it mattered for the format. It's not like we forgot about it entirely, Sovereign's Realm was mentioned earlier in the thread.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2020-03-25 at 08:54 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #329
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Sorry, b_jonas. It just seemed to me like a three-card pool with no sideboard was the requirement for using Worldknit; I've been out of the loop for a while because of silly stuff going on.
    Used to be DMofDarkness
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  30. - Top - End - #330
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Europe
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    I will freeze the decks for Return round 15 on Tuesday evening, 2020-03-31 21:00. I will publish the submitted decks shortly after that. You have four and a half days, please submit your deck by that deadline if you haven't done so.

    Also, please speak up in the thread if you want to host the following rounds.

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