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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom the Mime View Post
    No mulligans and even if there there were, it would give you the worst possible hand and card order. Anything you wanted to protect from discard is stuck in your hand.
    Not anymore. The Comprehensive rules now use the Paris Mulligan, which means that if I take a mulligan, then I get to draw all my deck and then choose a card from my hand and put it to the bottom of my library. With a three-card deck, there's no randomness. I admit that it's probably still not a viable strategy this early.
    Quote Originally Posted by Comprehensive Rules 2019-10
    103.4. Each player draws a number of cards equal to their starting hand size, which is normally seven. (Some effects can modify a player’s starting hand size.) A player who is dissatisfied with their initial hand may take a mulligan. First, the starting player declares whether they will take a mulligan. Then each other player in turn order does the same. Once each player has made a declaration, all players who decided to take mulligans do so at the same time. To take a mulligan, a player shuffles the cards in their hand back into their library, draws a new hand of cards equal to their starting hand size, then puts a number of those cards equal to the number of times that player has taken a mulligan on the bottom of their library in any order. Once a player chooses not to take a mulligan, the remaining cards become that player’s opening hand, and that player may not take any further mulligans. This process is then repeated until no player takes a mulligan. A player can take mulligans until their opening hand would be zero cards, after which they may not take further mulligans.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2019-10-24 at 09:03 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    No mulligans. End of story.
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Hey everyone! Play Chancellor of the Annex! It totally defeats all decks that will be in the first round.
    Not really? If anything, Annex is one of the easier ones to prepare against.
    Quote Originally Posted by MERC_1 View Post
    I find it very amusing that a very theoretical discussion of how to Optimize Bardic Music, turns into a discussion on how much worms you can eat in 7 minutes.
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Not anymore. The Comprehensive rules now use the Paris Mulligan, which means that if I take a mulligan, then I get to draw all my deck and then choose a card from my hand and put it to the bottom of my library. With a three-card deck, there's no randomness. I admit that it's probably still not a viable strategy this early.
    That would be the London Mulligan.

    EDIT - that said, Tom has spoken

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom the Mime View Post
    No mulligans. End of story.
    So further conversation on the matter is moot.
    Last edited by Korith; 2019-10-24 at 02:29 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Not really? If anything, Annex is one of the easier ones to prepare against.
    It's a hard counter to most Lotus decks and other T1 wins. Pretty solid protection for Lotus/Lab Maniac. Honestly, though everyone is planning for it, I hope Lab Man + Chancellor + Lotus gets the win this week, just to get the most obnoxious cards out of the way for next time.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    It's a hard counter to most Lotus decks and other T1 wins. Pretty solid protection for Lotus/Lab Maniac. Honestly, though everyone is planning for it, I hope Lab Man + Chancellor + Lotus gets the win this week, just to get the most obnoxious cards out of the way for next time.
    Yeah, the most annoying thing about all the broken cards being legal is that people are going to plan for them, which means it might take a while before some of them get banned.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    On the other hand, most of the good answers to broken cards are other broken cards.
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    It's a hard counter to most Lotus decks and other T1 wins. Pretty solid protection for Lotus/Lab Maniac. Honestly, though everyone is planning for it, I hope Lab Man + Chancellor + Lotus gets the win this week, just to get the most obnoxious cards out of the way for next time.
    Not sure if that's deliberate mind game at this point, but of all decks 2-card combos like Lotus-Lab and Lotus-Nemesis have the best chance of countering Annex.
    Quote Originally Posted by MERC_1 View Post
    I find it very amusing that a very theoretical discussion of how to Optimize Bardic Music, turns into a discussion on how much worms you can eat in 7 minutes.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Lotus decks can play around Chancellor, but in doing so they open themselves up to Force a lot more.

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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Yeah. You can play around whatever you like, but you can't play around everything at once. Can you make a single deck that beats a deck packing a turn zero discard effect, a deck packing a Force of Will, a deck packing a strip mine, *and* a deck packing Lotus and some kind of nasty resilient threat?
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Yeah. You can play around whatever you like, but you can't play around everything at once. Can you make a single deck that beats a deck packing a turn zero discard effect, a deck packing a Force of Will, a deck packing a strip mine, *and* a deck packing Lotus and some kind of nasty resilient threat?
    It would help if you gave specific decks rather than archetypes when you ask such a question. In particular, what is the nasty resilient threat? A large creature that is cheap to summon? A planeswalker that has multiple useful abilities?
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2019-10-25 at 09:39 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    It would help if you gave specific decks rather than archetypes when you ask such a question. In particular, what is the nasty resilient threat? A large creature that is cheap to summon? A planeswalker that has multiple useful abilities?
    I mean, I could list a bunch of decks, but my point is that there is no deck that beats every other deck. So you have to guess what the most common strategies are going to be based on what cards are currently available, and try to figure out a deck that wins against as many of them as possible.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    The good thing is that all this Lotus/Force/Chancellor thing likely wouldn't even be relevant past the 1st month of the 3CB, regardless of who submitted which broken cards

    EDIT: I'm beginning to feel we should've kept the banlist, with maybe the winner bring able to unban one card for the next round if that's what you think would spice things up.
    Last edited by ben-zayb; 2019-10-25 at 01:44 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MERC_1 View Post
    I find it very amusing that a very theoretical discussion of how to Optimize Bardic Music, turns into a discussion on how much worms you can eat in 7 minutes.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    The good thing is that all this Lotus/Force/Chancellor thing likely wouldn't even be relevant past the 1st month of the 3CB, regardless of who submitted which broken cards
    I recall that last time, Chancellor lasted until round 11 or so because everyone was fastidiously playing around it. Force lasted longer. Never underestimate people's paranoia about answers.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    In particular, what is the nasty resilient threat?
    Black Lotus->True Name Nemesis with Mutagenic Growth in hand, perhaps?
    Last edited by Korith; 2019-10-25 at 02:11 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    I recall that last time, Chancellor lasted until round 11 or so because everyone was fastidiously playing around it. Force lasted longer. Never underestimate people's paranoia about answers.
    Must've been somewhere else because looking back, FoW was round 1 last time here and the two relevant chancellors round 3. One of the lotuses lasted longer due to both the counters against it and avatars being a thing
    If FoW outlasts the lotuses, I'd be a little surprised but not amazed if it lasted into double digit rounds. It's great against 0 cost mana rocks and all in combo decks. It loses against decks with any sort of redundancy that can get over a 1/1 as you can't get anything bigger without compromising on being able to counter when you need to. You don't need many decks to be strong against you to knock you off top spot. If it outlasts Chancellor of the Forge and the other couple of cards like it, it becomes nearly unplayable.
    Last edited by Tom the Mime; 2019-10-25 at 03:42 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    This round hasn't been particularly stale for me. So far, I've found:
    ...Two expensive, but playable, disruptive threats that are both better than anything else I had in the slot
    ...a premiere 1-drop threat, probably top three in my preference order for such things
    ...an almost-possible deck that countered my entire round 1 gauntlet, but didn't work because it sorta hated itself out too
    ...an anti-Force tool that can flex into a backup threat

    None of which I'd considered before. And that's just the stuff that I found after locking in my deck.
    Last edited by Bucky; 2019-10-25 at 08:19 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    I'd be interesting to see when the new "Force of " will see play. The UBG ones at least look usable.
    Quote Originally Posted by MERC_1 View Post
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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    I'd be interesting to see when the new "Force of " will see play. The UBG ones at least look usable.
    The problem is that they are all narrow and card disadvantage. They've got speed against swift combos, but that will be less relevant later on, and trading 2 cards for one is very awkward in a 3 card format, especially when they can be blanked.
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  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Korith View Post
    Black Lotus->True Name Nemesis with Mutagenic Growth in hand, perhaps?
    That still doesn't win against Chancellor of the Annex though, and also loses to discard and to Force of Will, though it does defeat Strip Mine.

    I wonder if it's somehow possible to build a redundant deck with two animating lands. The goal is that if it goes against a discard, cancel or land destruction deck, the remaining cards still give you a large creature to win, but if it goes against something like that True Name Nemesis deck, it uses evasion or flying and wins the damage race. This might be impossible though.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2019-10-26 at 06:31 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Dang. Now I want to change my deck.
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    That still doesn't win against Chancellor of the Annex though, and also loses to discard and to Force of Will, though it does defeat Strip Mine.

    I wonder if it's somehow possible to build a redundant deck with two animating lands. The goal is that if it goes against a discard, cancel or land destruction deck, the remaining cards still give you a large creature to win, but if it goes against something like that True Name Nemesis deck, it uses evasion or flying and wins the damage race. This might be impossible though.
    Replace Mutagenic Growth with Gitaxian Probe or Gutshot.

    How about?
    Chancellor of the Annex, Fountain of Cho, Fountain of Cho
    Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Leyline of the Meek
    Dread, Subterranean Hangar, Subterranean Hangar
    Last edited by ben-zayb; 2019-10-26 at 08:32 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MERC_1 View Post
    I find it very amusing that a very theoretical discussion of how to Optimize Bardic Music, turns into a discussion on how much worms you can eat in 7 minutes.
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Replace Mutagenic Growth with Gitaxian Probe or Gutshot.

    How about?
    Chancellor of the Annex, Fountain of Cho, Fountain of Cho
    Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Leyline of the Meek
    Dread, Subterranean Hangar, Subterranean Hangar
    Resilient, but the main danger is getting outraced by Lotus+something mean before Dread hits the board. Even with two hangars it'll be turn six before you can cast Dread if I'm mathing right.

    City of Traitors + Inkmoth Nexus + Inkmoth Nexus?
    Last edited by Eurus; 2019-10-26 at 09:15 AM.
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Resilient, but the main danger is getting outraced by Lotus+something mean before Dread hits the board. Even with two hangars it'll be turn six before you can cast Dread if I'm mathing right.

    City of Traitors + Inkmoth Nexus + Inkmoth Nexus?
    Both Lotus + Nemesis + Mutagenic Growth and dual Inkmoth Nexus decks goldfish on turn 7, so technically they outrace Dread on the play only. Dread finishes much later, but kills the Nemesis on the play.
    Quote Originally Posted by MERC_1 View Post
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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Fair enough. Blacker Lotus+Boldwyr Heavyweights+Chancellor of the Annex?
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  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    I wonder if it's somehow possible to build a redundant deck with two animating lands. The goal is that if it goes against a discard, cancel or land destruction deck, the remaining cards still give you a large creature to win, but if it goes against something like that True Name Nemesis deck, it uses evasion or flying and wins the damage race. This might be impossible though.
    It's possible. But your creature isn't particularly large. Choose two:
    * The creature costs more than one mana
    * The lands can both animate themselves
    * You can still cast the creature even after discarding a land

    2x (manland) + (1-drop) is kinda reasonable as a deck that can play through disruption, but I don't think it's faster than True Name Nemesis.

    (E) Correction: there are a couple of 1-drops that let the 3-card deck race a 2-card deck of Black Lotus/True Name Nemesis while having being able to attack through the Nemesis. But if the Nemesis deck's third card is even slightly relevant, the race is very likely a push or worse.
    Last edited by Bucky; 2019-10-26 at 10:36 AM.
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Dang. Now I want to change my deck.
    There's still time until Sunday. You can change it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    City of Traitors + Inkmoth Nexus + Inkmoth Nexus?
    Don't think so. Loses to discard, to True Name Nemesis, to land destruction; probably loses to Chancelor because two damage per turn isn't enough, and no idea about Force of Will.
    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    [Black Lotus, True Name Nemesis] Replace Mutagenic Growth with Gitaxian Probe or Gutshot.
    Yes, that's better. Now it may win against a Chancellor or Force of Will deck too, while it still wins to land destruction and loses to discard.
    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Dread, Subterranean Hangar, Subterranean Hangar
    Interesting. Dread comes right back into your library if it's discarded, so you still cast it in your fourth turn and win; probably also wins against Force of Will or Chancellor or True Name Nemesis; loses to land destruction. Pretty good.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2019-10-26 at 12:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    probably loses to Chancelor because two damage per turn isn't enough,
    It's effectively 4 damage a turn due to being infect.

    Yes, that's better. Now it may win against a Chancellor or Force of Will deck too, while it still wins to land destruction and loses to discard.
    How does it win against force? They can counter either the lotus or the nemesis.
    If it's gutshot it at least draws against force due to their threats being 1/1.
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    How does it win against force? They can counter either the lotus or the nemesis.
    If it's gutshot it at least draws against force due to their threats being 1/1.
    Force can have a bigger threat - Force of Will + Saprazzan Cove + Misthollow Griffin. Has issues actually winning the game against Strip Mine decks and those with uncounterable threats, though.
    Last edited by Gauntlet; 2019-10-26 at 01:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    It's now Sunday here so decks are locked in
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