Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

[b_jonas]

Gauntlet: that depends on what you mean by obvious decks. I certainly expect that many decks will run some disruption (discard, counterspell, land destruction, Balance etc). In particular, even with Chancellor of the Annex out, I expect that my decks may be disrupted in my first turn even on my play. I thus won't run decks that can't defend themselves and need all three of their cards, eg. Black Lotus, Channel, Mistcutter Hydra (update: Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Barren Glory may be a better example). I am also avoiding Balance because I have some irrational dislike of that card. I think that makes the obvious decks the ones that use some form of discard, counterspells, or land destruction. I'm not trying to avoid those.

There's still some mind game in whether to use Black Lotus because it's the best mana source, or avoid it and use mana sources that won't be countered by Force of Will. Perhaps this is what you mean above. I think Black Lotus is still worth, mostly because it will be out very soon, so there won't be another opportunity to use it. There's a larger choice in the other efficient mana sources, and most of them are not fast enough for the current meta. Perhaps the only exception is Mishra's Workshop.

[Personification]

Out of curiosity, how does Spike, Tournament Grinder interact with our banlist?

[Quiddle]

This seems like a constructed format so I think it can pull our cards.

[Ninjaman]

Out of curiosity, how does Spike, Tournament Grinder interact with our banlist?

I don't think she can wish for them.

[b_jonas]

Out of curiosity, how does Spike, Tournament Grinder interact with our banlist?

My guess is that you can use Spike to get a card from your sideboard if the card is not banned in Vanishing Three Card Blind but banned or restricted in one of the Wizards-supported constructed formats. Wizards has a webpage that lists the latest ban lists, except for the online-only formats that are listed separately, and except for Brawl, whose ban list is also on a separate page for some reason. The biggest limitation is still that your sideboard can have only three cards, and you can't put cards that are on our ban list into your sideboard.

[Gauntlet]

Note that Spike can get a card that has been banned - it doesn't have to be still banned now. So you could get, for example, Emrakul the Promised End even though she isn't on any current banlists.

[Tom the Mime]

Out of curiosity, how does Spike, Tournament Grinder interact with our banlist?

Sideboard of three, link to the constructed banlist that has the cards. The sideboard cards also can't already be banned here.

[b_jonas]

A quick ruling question. Do you treat Subcontract from Unstable similar to random effects, in that if I cast it, the person outside the game will choose the card that gives me the worst chance to win?

[Ninjaman]

A quick ruling question. Do you treat Subcontract from Unstable similar to random effects, in that if I cast it, the person outside the game will choose the card that gives me the worst chance to win?

I'd assume that since you get to pick the person who picks the card, you can pick a person who has your best interest in mind.

[Tom the Mime]

I'd rule that you're unlucky in that all the people around you like your opponent more than you so it's the worst card for you. It doesn't really matter for a while given that thoughtseize, cabal therapy and blackmail are all still around as roughly equivalent or better than a favorable ruling on Subcontract. If whoever if judging when those three get banned wants to look at it again, fine, but it'll probably be a while.

[Ninjaman]

I'd rule that you're unlucky in that all the people around you like your opponent more than you so it's the worst card for you. It doesn't really matter for a while given that thoughtseize, cabal therapy and blackmail are all still around as roughly equivalent or better than a favorable ruling on Subcontract. If whoever if judging when those three get banned wants to look at it again, fine, but it'll probably be a while.

That seems like a very weird ruling when you/TiaC (don't remember) ruled you always get the perfect pull from booster tutor.

[Tom the Mime]

That seems like a very weird ruling when you/TiaC (don't remember) ruled you always get the perfect pull from booster tutor.

I found the booster tutor ruling odd but it's useless without the ruling and including it gives a unique option that's playable but not overpowered so I'm fine standing by it. Subcontract wouldn't really add anything, so I'm fine deviating and being harsher on the ruling, especially when there are existing cats that do the same thing as the improved ruling. If people want to revisit it layer when those cards are gone, fine but for now it doesn't really matter.

On a similar note, a public reply to an earlier pm, if contraptions are used, you are limited to a contraption deck of 1 card, not 3. This is largely because finding the worst card order for contraption deck if you assembled multiple times (doable in a reasonable time compare to some slower decks) against a deck where timing matters (with the sprockets) or a mirror match would be a nightmare with three cards in that deck and still had the potential to be pretty bad with two.

Decks are now locked for judging tomorrow.

[Bucky]

On a similar note, a public reply to an earlier pm, if contraptions are used, you are limited to a contraption deck of 1 card, not 3. This is largely because finding the worst card order for contraption deck if you assembled multiple times (doable in a reasonable time compare to some slower decks) against a deck where timing matters (with the sprockets) or a mirror match would be a nightmare with three cards in that deck and still had the potential to be pretty bad with two.

Might I propose a compromise; assembling multiple times pulls up to 3 copies of the same contraption?

[Ninjaman]

I found the booster tutor ruling odd but it's useless without the ruling and including it gives a unique option that's playable but not overpowered so I'm fine standing by it. Subcontract wouldn't really add anything, so I'm fine deviating and being harsher on the ruling, especially when there are existing cats that do the same thing as the improved ruling. If people want to revisit it layer when those cards are gone, fine but for now it doesn't really matter.

Booster Tutor being interesting and Subcontract not adding anything seems like a poor basis for the rulings.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with ruling that Booster Tutor is just a very bad card and no one should be playing it. There are already loads of those.
This ruling allows Booster Tutor to be something Booster Tutor never was, the best wish.
I'm not against the ruling of the requires other people to help you cards, it could go either way.
But giving an unfavorable ruling to a card that really could go either way, while giving a favorable ruling to a card that really doesn't deserve it, seems very inconsistent.

On a similar note, a public reply to an earlier pm, if contraptions are used, you are limited to a contraption deck of 1 card, not 3. This is largely because finding the worst card order for contraption deck if you assembled multiple times (doable in a reasonable time compare to some slower decks) against a deck where timing matters (with the sprockets) or a mirror match would be a nightmare with three cards in that deck and still had the potential to be pretty bad with two.

Was gonna ask about that. That makes a lot of sense.

[Unavenger]

As far as Booster Tutor is concerned, the reason for the ruling was that the contents of a pack are hidden information, not a random event (at least, not a random event by the time you're holding the pack in your hand) or a test of skill. Outside assistance cards seem more like a random event or a test of skill (how to win friends and influence people?) than hidden info.

[Ninjaman]

As far as Booster Tutor is concerned, the reason for the ruling was that the contents of a pack are hidden information, not a random event (at least, not a random event by the time you're holding the pack in your hand) or a test of skill. Outside assistance cards seem more like a random event or a test of skill (how to win friends and influence people?) than hidden info.

If you define a booster to be hidden information and not a random event, (which I still think is a ridiculous ruling), then you could say the same thing about Outside assistance. It's not random what they're going to do, you just don't know.

[Gauntlet]

Maybe I should submit my Booster Tutor list before it gets nerfed...

[Korith]

I propose that Booster Tutor should be treated in the spirit of randomness, and that a pack should be deemed to contain 15 copies of Break Open.

[Tom the Mime]

If you define a booster to be hidden information and not a random event, (which I still think is a ridiculous ruling), then you could say the same thing about Outside assistance. It's not random what they're going to do, you just don't know.

I didn't really agree with the ruling then but given the planned rotation of judging here, I'm tentative about overruling someones past ruling even if I don't fell bound by it for as precedent for other cards, especially given that, even as the best wish, it's not highly competitive.

- - - Updated - - -

Round 2 Results (Thanks for the link b_jonas):

Eurus: Dwarven Hold, Pyrokinesis, Squee the Immortal
Fable Wright: Forest, Crashing Footfalls, Crashing Footfalls
Korith: City of Traitors, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory
DrGunsforhands: Dryad Arbor, Slippery Bogle, Force of Will
Quiddle: Black lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Force of Will
Unavenger: Chancellor of the Forge, Leyline of the Meek, Pyrokinesis
Bucky: Leyline of Anticipation, Black Lotus, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Ninjaman: Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Calciform Pools, Celestial Colonnade
b_jonas: Leyline of Anticipation, Black Lotus, Liliana's Specter
ben-zayb: Chancellor of the Forge, Dwarven Hold, Pyrokinesis
Gauntlet: Force of Will, Snapback, Chancellor of the Forge
Personification: Balance, Black Lotus, Healer's Hawk

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Fable Wright

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ben-zayb

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Eurus

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Ninjaman

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Korith

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Gauntlet

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Dr Gunsforhands

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Unavenger

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Personification

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Quiddle

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b_jonas

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Bucky

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11

This round saw a meta extremely hostile to lab maniac, with most decks running something to counter it. People saw this coming and didn't play it and Fable Wright adjusted to this meta the best with a brutal horde of 4/4 rhino's that hit hard once they come out, with suspend helping them sidestep cards like Thalia and Balance and the extra copy barrelling through single instances of disruption. Looks likely that we're only banning a single card this round.

A few notable interactions to forestall some obvious questions:

• Eurus and ninja draw because Eurus can't play Squee effectively because Tabernacle means his land is always tapped and the mana pool is empty by battle phase if Squee is out so Colonnades can transform safely.
• Fable v Personification - Fable suspends the second footsteps as soon as the first resolves, keeping it safe from balance and the threat is big enough to force Balance while it's suspended
• Korith v ben-zayb
  
  • Korith can only attack with a 2/2 T2 then a 3/3 after or zayb can pyro both and win with the goblin. Best option for Korith is to swing like this as much as possible and this gets them the win on play even with a chump block by one turn. Zayb can't pyro one without removing any future option. T8 13 life v 3 life.
  • With zayb on play, he chips with the goblin as Korith attacks until T8 with zayb on 3 life, holding back to chump block. T9 sees chancellor hit the field as a 5/5 with a replacement 1/1 goblin and Korith can safely stall until he can hardcast pyrokinesis. Korith swings with 5/5 - if blocked, even if pumped, pyrokinesis can finish them off, leaving it open for the goblin, so unblocked and down to 8 life. Korith can still only attack with one of the or get pyroed and if he does nothing the Chancellor will chip away - one factory attacks and gets pyroed. Zayb can survive 2 attacks from a 2/2 with a chump block and life, which is enough for the Chancellor to finish Korith off.
  
  

Let me know if you find any mistakes.

[b_jonas]

Decklists with links to Scryfall.

Eurus: Dwarven Hold, Pyrokinesis, Squee the Immortal
Fable Wright: Forest, Crashing Footfalls, Crashing Footfalls
Korith: City of Traitors, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory
DrGunsforhands: Dryad Arbor, Slippery Bogle, Force of Will
Quiddle: Black lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Force of Will
Unavenger: Chancellor of the Forge, Leyline of the Meek, Pyrokinesis
Bucky: Leyline of Anticipation, Black Lotus, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Ninjaman: Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Calciform Pools, Celestial Colonnade
b_jonas: Leyline of Anticipation, Black Lotus, Liliana's Specter
ben-zayb: Chancellor of the Forge, Dwarven Hold, Pyrokinesis
Gauntlet: Force of Will, Snapback, Chancellor of the Forge
Personification: Balance, Black Lotus, Healer's Hawk

Tom the Mime: you misspelled the card names "Liliana's Specter" and "Dwarven Hold".
Korith: welcome to the game.

[Bucky]

It was also doing better than I thought against some of the decks in so it'll probably come back with tweaks to optimize it in round 6 when someone else is hosting (assuming the critical parts aren't banned and I doubt they will be).

In the future, please be careful not to leak any information at all about submitted but unrevealed decks.

[Eurus]

Am I being dumb here? I'm not seeing how the match between Korith and me goes. Also, against Gauntlet, I think that I should just be able to play Squee again a few turns later after he gets killed or countered or snapback'd.

Won't even come close to touching the top decks no matter what, but I just wanna figure out if I'm missing something obvious.

[Tom the Mime]

Am I being dumb here? I'm not seeing how the match between Korith and me goes. Also, against Gauntlet, I think that I should just be able to play Squee again a few turns later after he gets killed or countered or snapback'd.

Won't even come close to touching the top decks no matter what, but I just wanna figure out if I'm missing something obvious.

Got it mixed up with the 1/1 Squee which would've given those results. Fixed.

[TiaC]

I found the booster tutor ruling odd but it's useless without the ruling and including it gives a unique option that's playable but not overpowered so I'm fine standing by it.

The other reason for the Booster Tutor ruling is that someone could make a deck that can always cast the cards they get, and I didn't want to end up in the situation where I had to figure what would be the worst 15-card pack someone could have to pick 3 cards out of. (Also, the deck has to be the same for every game, so I would need the pack that did worst against the whole field.) You can't submit a deck where the decklist is indeterminate, and "worst random outcome" is extremely difficult to determine.

I propose that Booster Tutor should be treated in the spirit of randomness, and that a pack should be deemed to contain 15 copies of Break Open.

That's not a random result that could actually exist. In a situation where a player flips a coin and would benefit from both heads and tails, they get whichever is worse for them, we don't pretend they dropped the coin down a vent. The worst result is different from an illegal result.

This is why I said that the submitter must be able to define their booster, because the edge case where they include a way to cast whatever they get is impossible to resolve otherwise.

[Personification]

Re: Booster Tutor
I say you always get Phage the Untouchable.

[Ninjaman]

I'm pretty sure that the worst booster of even your choice of set isn't going to win you the game.

[Ninjaman]

Re: Booster Tutor
I say you always get Phage the Untouchable.

You get to pick what booster you want and you get to pick the best out of the worst 14 cards from the booster.

[Personification]

Printing errors sometimes happen...

[Tom the Mime]

Given there haven't been any more questions, the official results.

Gold: Fable Wright
Dwarf Forge: ben-zayb
A different sort of immortal fire: Eurus
Tabernacles and celestials go well together: Ninjaman
Traitorous factory workers: Korith
Snapping force: Gauntlet
Slippery Will: Dr Gunsforhands
Meek Goblin: Unavenger
Still trying to find balance: personification
You'd have to be a maniac to run this round 2: Quiddle
The anticipation still isn't killing me: b_jonas
Guarding what no one wanted: Bucky

Ban list:

Spoiler: Ban list: Round 3

Show

Land: Empty

Artifact: Blacker Lotus

White: Chancellor of the Annex

Blue: Jace, Wielder of Mysteries

Black: Empty

Green: Crashing Footfalls

Red: Empty

Gold: Empty

I'd say submit your decks for round 3 but I don't think anyone needs to be told that because I've got 8 already. Deck submission will probably close on Monday. Could be earlier if a day goes by without any new submissions or changes.

[Tom the Mime]

And the Round 3 results. I think people will be pleased with the cards banned (barring mistakes on my part).

Korith: Bazaar of Baghdad, Bloodghast, Dimir Aqueduct
Bucky: Black Lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Street Wraith
Eurus: Leyline of Anticipation, Black Lotus, Mesmeric Fiend
ben-zayb: Black Lotus, Black Lotus, The Cheese Stands Alone
Fable Wright: Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Forest
Ninjaman: City of Traitors, Steel Overseer, Hangarback Walker
b_jonas: Irrigation Ditch, Form of Squirrel, Judge's Familiar
Unavenger: Plains, Pact of the Titan, Angel's Grace
personification: Phage the Untouchable, Bottomless Vault, Dryad Arbor
Quiddle: Cavern of Souls, Scythe Tiger, Llanowar Reborn
Gauntlet: Dismember, Cavern of Souls, Wrench-Rigger, Contraption: Dispatch Dispensary

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ben-zayb

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Bucky

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Gauntlet

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b_jonas

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Ninjaman

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Eurus

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Fable Wright

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unavenger

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Quiddle

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personification

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Korith

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0

Very little effective disruption this round so ben-zayb and Bucky share first with very fast alt wincon decks turn 1. Gauntlet comes out with the first contraption deck which seemed to work a lot like a Words of Wilding deck, except with menace and slower token generation. Still good enough for 3rd though.