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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Gauntlet: that depends on what you mean by obvious decks. I certainly expect that many decks will run some disruption (discard, counterspell, land destruction, Balance etc). In particular, even with Chancellor of the Annex out, I expect that my decks may be disrupted in my first turn even on my play. I thus won't run decks that can't defend themselves and need all three of their cards, eg. Black Lotus, Channel, Mistcutter Hydra (update: Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Barren Glory may be a better example). I am also avoiding Balance because I have some irrational dislike of that card. I think that makes the obvious decks the ones that use some form of discard, counterspells, or land destruction. I'm not trying to avoid those.

    There's still some mind game in whether to use Black Lotus because it's the best mana source, or avoid it and use mana sources that won't be countered by Force of Will. Perhaps this is what you mean above. I think Black Lotus is still worth, mostly because it will be out very soon, so there won't be another opportunity to use it. There's a larger choice in the other efficient mana sources, and most of them are not fast enough for the current meta. Perhaps the only exception is Mishra's Workshop.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2019-10-29 at 03:27 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Out of curiosity, how does Spike, Tournament Grinder interact with our banlist?
    Last edited by Personification; 2019-10-29 at 11:49 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    This seems like a constructed format so I think it can pull our cards.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Personification View Post
    Out of curiosity, how does Spike, Tournament Grinder interact with our banlist?
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Personification View Post
    Out of curiosity, how does Spike, Tournament Grinder interact with our banlist?
    My guess is that you can use Spike to get a card from your sideboard if the card is not banned in Vanishing Three Card Blind but banned or restricted in one of the Wizards-supported constructed formats. Wizards has a webpage that lists the latest ban lists, except for the online-only formats that are listed separately, and except for Brawl, whose ban list is also on a separate page for some reason. The biggest limitation is still that your sideboard can have only three cards, and you can't put cards that are on our ban list into your sideboard.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2019-10-29 at 02:44 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Note that Spike can get a card that has been banned - it doesn't have to be still banned now. So you could get, for example, Emrakul the Promised End even though she isn't on any current banlists.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Personification View Post
    Out of curiosity, how does Spike, Tournament Grinder interact with our banlist?
    Sideboard of three, link to the constructed banlist that has the cards. The sideboard cards also can't already be banned here.
    Last edited by Tom the Mime; 2019-10-29 at 03:46 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    A quick ruling question. Do you treat Subcontract from Unstable similar to random effects, in that if I cast it, the person outside the game will choose the card that gives me the worst chance to win?

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    A quick ruling question. Do you treat Subcontract from Unstable similar to random effects, in that if I cast it, the person outside the game will choose the card that gives me the worst chance to win?
    I'd assume that since you get to pick the person who picks the card, you can pick a person who has your best interest in mind.
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    I'd rule that you're unlucky in that all the people around you like your opponent more than you so it's the worst card for you. It doesn't really matter for a while given that thoughtseize, cabal therapy and blackmail are all still around as roughly equivalent or better than a favorable ruling on Subcontract. If whoever if judging when those three get banned wants to look at it again, fine, but it'll probably be a while.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom the Mime View Post
    I'd rule that you're unlucky in that all the people around you like your opponent more than you so it's the worst card for you. It doesn't really matter for a while given that thoughtseize, cabal therapy and blackmail are all still around as roughly equivalent or better than a favorable ruling on Subcontract. If whoever if judging when those three get banned wants to look at it again, fine, but it'll probably be a while.
    That seems like a very weird ruling when you/TiaC (don't remember) ruled you always get the perfect pull from booster tutor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cizak View Post
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    That seems like a very weird ruling when you/TiaC (don't remember) ruled you always get the perfect pull from booster tutor.
    I found the booster tutor ruling odd but it's useless without the ruling and including it gives a unique option that's playable but not overpowered so I'm fine standing by it. Subcontract wouldn't really add anything, so I'm fine deviating and being harsher on the ruling, especially when there are existing cats that do the same thing as the improved ruling. If people want to revisit it layer when those cards are gone, fine but for now it doesn't really matter.

    On a similar note, a public reply to an earlier pm, if contraptions are used, you are limited to a contraption deck of 1 card, not 3. This is largely because finding the worst card order for contraption deck if you assembled multiple times (doable in a reasonable time compare to some slower decks) against a deck where timing matters (with the sprockets) or a mirror match would be a nightmare with three cards in that deck and still had the potential to be pretty bad with two.

    Decks are now locked for judging tomorrow.
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom the Mime View Post
    On a similar note, a public reply to an earlier pm, if contraptions are used, you are limited to a contraption deck of 1 card, not 3. This is largely because finding the worst card order for contraption deck if you assembled multiple times (doable in a reasonable time compare to some slower decks) against a deck where timing matters (with the sprockets) or a mirror match would be a nightmare with three cards in that deck and still had the potential to be pretty bad with two.
    Might I propose a compromise; assembling multiple times pulls up to 3 copies of the same contraption?
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom the Mime View Post
    I found the booster tutor ruling odd but it's useless without the ruling and including it gives a unique option that's playable but not overpowered so I'm fine standing by it. Subcontract wouldn't really add anything, so I'm fine deviating and being harsher on the ruling, especially when there are existing cats that do the same thing as the improved ruling. If people want to revisit it layer when those cards are gone, fine but for now it doesn't really matter.
    Booster Tutor being interesting and Subcontract not adding anything seems like a poor basis for the rulings.
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with ruling that Booster Tutor is just a very bad card and no one should be playing it. There are already loads of those.
    This ruling allows Booster Tutor to be something Booster Tutor never was, the best wish.
    I'm not against the ruling of the requires other people to help you cards, it could go either way.
    But giving an unfavorable ruling to a card that really could go either way, while giving a favorable ruling to a card that really doesn't deserve it, seems very inconsistent.

    On a similar note, a public reply to an earlier pm, if contraptions are used, you are limited to a contraption deck of 1 card, not 3. This is largely because finding the worst card order for contraption deck if you assembled multiple times (doable in a reasonable time compare to some slower decks) against a deck where timing matters (with the sprockets) or a mirror match would be a nightmare with three cards in that deck and still had the potential to be pretty bad with two.
    Was gonna ask about that. That makes a lot of sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cizak View Post
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    As far as Booster Tutor is concerned, the reason for the ruling was that the contents of a pack are hidden information, not a random event (at least, not a random event by the time you're holding the pack in your hand) or a test of skill. Outside assistance cards seem more like a random event or a test of skill (how to win friends and influence people?) than hidden info.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    As far as Booster Tutor is concerned, the reason for the ruling was that the contents of a pack are hidden information, not a random event (at least, not a random event by the time you're holding the pack in your hand) or a test of skill. Outside assistance cards seem more like a random event or a test of skill (how to win friends and influence people?) than hidden info.
    If you define a booster to be hidden information and not a random event, (which I still think is a ridiculous ruling), then you could say the same thing about Outside assistance. It's not random what they're going to do, you just don't know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cizak View Post
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Maybe I should submit my Booster Tutor list before it gets nerfed...

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    I propose that Booster Tutor should be treated in the spirit of randomness, and that a pack should be deemed to contain 15 copies of Break Open.
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  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    If you define a booster to be hidden information and not a random event, (which I still think is a ridiculous ruling), then you could say the same thing about Outside assistance. It's not random what they're going to do, you just don't know.
    I didn't really agree with the ruling then but given the planned rotation of judging here, I'm tentative about overruling someones past ruling even if I don't fell bound by it for as precedent for other cards, especially given that, even as the best wish, it's not highly competitive.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Round 2 Results (Thanks for the link b_jonas):

    Eurus: Dwarven Hold, Pyrokinesis, Squee the Immortal
    Fable Wright: Forest, Crashing Footfalls, Crashing Footfalls
    Korith: City of Traitors, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory
    DrGunsforhands: Dryad Arbor, Slippery Bogle, Force of Will
    Quiddle: Black lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Force of Will
    Unavenger: Chancellor of the Forge, Leyline of the Meek, Pyrokinesis
    Bucky: Leyline of Anticipation, Black Lotus, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    Ninjaman: Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Calciform Pools, Celestial Colonnade
    b_jonas: Leyline of Anticipation, Black Lotus, Liliana's Specter
    ben-zayb: Chancellor of the Forge, Dwarven Hold, Pyrokinesis
    Gauntlet: Force of Will, Snapback, Chancellor of the Forge
    Personification: Balance, Black Lotus, Healer's Hawk

    X F bz E N K G Dr U P Q BJ B
    Fable Wright X WW WW WW WW WW WW WW WL LL WW WW 57
    ben-zayb LL X WW WW WL WW WW WW DL WW WW WW 52
    Eurus LL LL X DD DD WW WW WW DL WW DD WW 37
    Ninjaman LL LL DD X LL WW WW DD DD WW WW WW 36
    Korith LL WL DD WW X WW WW DD LL LL LL WW 31
    Gauntlet LL LL LL LL LL X DD DD WW WW WW WW 28
    Dr Gunsforhands LL LL DD LL LL DD X LL WW WW WW WW 28
    Unavenger LL LL LL DD DD DD WW X DD WW WW DD 28
    Personification WL WD WD DD WW LL LL DD X DD DD LL 25
    Quiddle WW LL LL LL WW LL LL LL DD X WW DD 22
    b_jonas LL LL DD LL WW LL LL LL DD LL X DW 14
    Bucky LL LL LL LL LL LL LL DD WW DD LD X 11

    This round saw a meta extremely hostile to lab maniac, with most decks running something to counter it. People saw this coming and didn't play it and Fable Wright adjusted to this meta the best with a brutal horde of 4/4 rhino's that hit hard once they come out, with suspend helping them sidestep cards like Thalia and Balance and the extra copy barrelling through single instances of disruption. Looks likely that we're only banning a single card this round.

    A few notable interactions to forestall some obvious questions:
    • Eurus and ninja draw because Eurus can't play Squee effectively because Tabernacle means his land is always tapped and the mana pool is empty by battle phase if Squee is out so Colonnades can transform safely.
    • Fable v Personification - Fable suspends the second footsteps as soon as the first resolves, keeping it safe from balance and the threat is big enough to force Balance while it's suspended
    • Korith v ben-zayb
      • Korith can only attack with a 2/2 T2 then a 3/3 after or zayb can pyro both and win with the goblin. Best option for Korith is to swing like this as much as possible and this gets them the win on play even with a chump block by one turn. Zayb can't pyro one without removing any future option. T8 13 life v 3 life.
      • With zayb on play, he chips with the goblin as Korith attacks until T8 with zayb on 3 life, holding back to chump block. T9 sees chancellor hit the field as a 5/5 with a replacement 1/1 goblin and Korith can safely stall until he can hardcast pyrokinesis. Korith swings with 5/5 - if blocked, even if pumped, pyrokinesis can finish them off, leaving it open for the goblin, so unblocked and down to 8 life. Korith can still only attack with one of the or get pyroed and if he does nothing the Chancellor will chip away - one factory attacks and gets pyroed. Zayb can survive 2 attacks from a 2/2 with a chump block and life, which is enough for the Chancellor to finish Korith off.



    Let me know if you find any mistakes.
    Last edited by Tom the Mime; 2019-10-30 at 10:07 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Decklists with links to Scryfall.

    Eurus: Dwarven Hold, Pyrokinesis, Squee the Immortal
    Fable Wright: Forest, Crashing Footfalls, Crashing Footfalls
    Korith: City of Traitors, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory
    DrGunsforhands: Dryad Arbor, Slippery Bogle, Force of Will
    Quiddle: Black lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Force of Will
    Unavenger: Chancellor of the Forge, Leyline of the Meek, Pyrokinesis
    Bucky: Leyline of Anticipation, Black Lotus, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    Ninjaman: Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Calciform Pools, Celestial Colonnade
    b_jonas: Leyline of Anticipation, Black Lotus, Liliana's Specter
    ben-zayb: Chancellor of the Forge, Dwarven Hold, Pyrokinesis
    Gauntlet: Force of Will, Snapback, Chancellor of the Forge
    Personification: Balance, Black Lotus, Healer's Hawk

    Tom the Mime: you misspelled the card names "Liliana's Specter" and "Dwarven Hold".
    Korith: welcome to the game.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2019-10-30 at 06:55 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom the Mime View Post
    It was also doing better than I thought against some of the decks in so it'll probably come back with tweaks to optimize it in round 6 when someone else is hosting (assuming the critical parts aren't banned and I doubt they will be).
    In the future, please be careful not to leak any information at all about submitted but unrevealed decks.
    Last edited by Bucky; 2019-10-30 at 07:13 PM.
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Am I being dumb here? I'm not seeing how the match between Korith and me goes. Also, against Gauntlet, I think that I should just be able to play Squee again a few turns later after he gets killed or countered or snapback'd.

    Won't even come close to touching the top decks no matter what, but I just wanna figure out if I'm missing something obvious.
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Am I being dumb here? I'm not seeing how the match between Korith and me goes. Also, against Gauntlet, I think that I should just be able to play Squee again a few turns later after he gets killed or countered or snapback'd.

    Won't even come close to touching the top decks no matter what, but I just wanna figure out if I'm missing something obvious.
    Got it mixed up with the 1/1 Squee which would've given those results. Fixed.
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom the Mime View Post
    I found the booster tutor ruling odd but it's useless without the ruling and including it gives a unique option that's playable but not overpowered so I'm fine standing by it.
    The other reason for the Booster Tutor ruling is that someone could make a deck that can always cast the cards they get, and I didn't want to end up in the situation where I had to figure what would be the worst 15-card pack someone could have to pick 3 cards out of. (Also, the deck has to be the same for every game, so I would need the pack that did worst against the whole field.) You can't submit a deck where the decklist is indeterminate, and "worst random outcome" is extremely difficult to determine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korith View Post
    I propose that Booster Tutor should be treated in the spirit of randomness, and that a pack should be deemed to contain 15 copies of Break Open.
    That's not a random result that could actually exist. In a situation where a player flips a coin and would benefit from both heads and tails, they get whichever is worse for them, we don't pretend they dropped the coin down a vent. The worst result is different from an illegal result.

    This is why I said that the submitter must be able to define their booster, because the edge case where they include a way to cast whatever they get is impossible to resolve otherwise.

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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Re: Booster Tutor
    I say you always get Phage the Untouchable.
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    I'm pretty sure that the worst booster of even your choice of set isn't going to win you the game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cizak View Post
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Personification View Post
    Re: Booster Tutor
    I say you always get Phage the Untouchable.
    You get to pick what booster you want and you get to pick the best out of the worst 14 cards from the booster.
    Last edited by Ninjaman; 2019-10-31 at 02:28 AM.
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  28. - Top - End - #118
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Personification's Avatar

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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Printing errors sometimes happen...
    Stop using good evidence and logic that makes sense to refute points, that's my job
    Lots of people seem to use blue for sarcasm, I decided I should too
    Quote Originally Posted by nabcif View Post
    Nitpick: I believe you'll find that only our heads explode. Page 43 of Book of Pedantic Forumites, if memory serves.
    I have joined the ranks of the FFRPeople Here is my character.

    Thank you to Linkele for creating my avatar!

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Given there haven't been any more questions, the official results.

    Gold: Fable Wright
    Dwarf Forge: ben-zayb
    A different sort of immortal fire: Eurus
    Tabernacles and celestials go well together: Ninjaman
    Traitorous factory workers: Korith
    Snapping force: Gauntlet
    Slippery Will: Dr Gunsforhands
    Meek Goblin: Unavenger
    Still trying to find balance: personification
    You'd have to be a maniac to run this round 2: Quiddle
    The anticipation still isn't killing me: b_jonas
    Guarding what no one wanted: Bucky

    Ban list:
    Spoiler: Ban list: Round 3
    Show

    Land: Empty

    Artifact: Blacker Lotus

    White: Chancellor of the Annex

    Blue: Jace, Wielder of Mysteries

    Black: Empty

    Green: Crashing Footfalls

    Red: Empty

    Gold: Empty

    I'd say submit your decks for round 3 but I don't think anyone needs to be told that because I've got 8 already. Deck submission will probably close on Monday. Could be earlier if a day goes by without any new submissions or changes.
    Last edited by Tom the Mime; 2019-10-31 at 08:37 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    And the Round 3 results. I think people will be pleased with the cards banned (barring mistakes on my part).

    Korith: Bazaar of Baghdad, Bloodghast, Dimir Aqueduct
    Bucky: Black Lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Street Wraith
    Eurus: Leyline of Anticipation, Black Lotus, Mesmeric Fiend
    ben-zayb: Black Lotus, Black Lotus, The Cheese Stands Alone
    Fable Wright: Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Forest
    Ninjaman: City of Traitors, Steel Overseer, Hangarback Walker
    b_jonas: Irrigation Ditch, Form of Squirrel, Judge's Familiar
    Unavenger: Plains, Pact of the Titan, Angel's Grace
    personification: Phage the Untouchable, Bottomless Vault, Dryad Arbor
    Quiddle: Cavern of Souls, Scythe Tiger, Llanowar Reborn
    Gauntlet: Dismember, Cavern of Souls, Wrench-Rigger, Contraption: Dispatch Dispensary


    X bz B G bj N E FW u Q p K
    ben-zayb X WL WW WW WW LL WW WW WW WW WW 51
    Bucky WL X WW WW WW LL WW WW WW WW WW 51
    Gauntlet LL LL X DD WW WW WW WW WW WW WW 44
    b_jonas LL LL DD X WW DD WW WW WW WW WW 40
    Ninjaman LL LL LL LL X WW WW WW WW WW WW 36
    Eurus WW WW LL DD LL X LL WW WW LL WW 32
    Fable Wright LL LL LL LL LL WW X WL WW WW WW 27
    unavenger LL LL LL LL LL LL WL X DD WW WW 17
    Quiddle LL LL LL LL LL LL LL DD X WW WW 14
    personification LL LL LL LL LL WW LL LL LL X WW 12
    Korith LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL X 0


    Very little effective disruption this round so ben-zayb and Bucky share first with very fast alt wincon decks turn 1. Gauntlet comes out with the first contraption deck which seemed to work a lot like a Words of Wilding deck, except with menace and slower token generation. Still good enough for 3rd though.
    Being a mime means never having to say you're sorry.

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