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  1. - Top - End - #151
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Not really, as people know what decks they submitted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gauntlet View Post
    Cheating by altering or dropping decks seems pretty difficult, given that the people submitting would probably notice if one that they sent was altered. Also, if the host isn't participating, there isn't much incentive to change anything anyway.
    That works only if you trust all players, including potential new players, more than the host. Otherwise any player can cheat by claiming that I modified or lost their winning deck. That's unless we have a combined system of course, with a host and with players committing to their deck by posting a seeded cryptographic digest in stream, to stop the host from cheating.

    All that is probably irrelevant, mind you, because if I were the host and I wanted to cheat, then I wouldn't bother with modifying other people's decks, I'd just play winning decks under an alternate username.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2019-11-12 at 12:56 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    That works only if you trust all players, including potential new players, more than the host. Otherwise any player can cheat by claiming that I modified or lost their winning deck. That's unless we have a combined system of course, with a host and with players committing to their deck by posting a seeded cryptographic digest in stream, to stop the host from cheating.
    But then we would be aware that something was going on, which kind of removes the whole point of cheating.
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    I'm okay with the host playing if, as the round is announced, they post enough info to show that their eventual deck was thought of before the round. People seemed against it earlier in the thread so the easiest solution seems to be for the host to sit out for the 5 rounds and keep rotating the host to give people a shot.

    Also, decks are locked and results will be out later today. We came very close to having 15 cards banned this round.
    Being a mime means never having to say you're sorry.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Tom the Mime: ooh, nice! Does that mean that the special round works as advertisment and brings in new players? Also, if the round 5 results are close to ready, you should also say something on what should happen to future rounds, because players will want to submit their decks for round 6. Even a temporary arrangement for round 6 only could help if you can't decide on a permanent solution.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2019-11-12 at 03:16 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom the Mime View Post
    Also, decks are locked and results will be out later today. We came very close to having 15 cards banned this round.
    Wait what? As in 5 decks tied for the win?
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  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Wait what? As in 5 decks tied for the win?
    Possibly all 5 DDs each other, then WWs the rest?

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    4 decks plus a sideboard and commanders. There was overlap between them and only a quirk that I'm pretty sure was unintended broke the deadlock. All WL against each other and differentiated in how they preyed against weaker decks.
    Last edited by Tom the Mime; 2019-11-13 at 04:27 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Round 5 results and unless I've made another mistake, we've got a doozy of an addition to the banlist. The commander is first in each list.

    b_jonas: Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Mox Pearl, Strip mine, Serra Ascendant
    Gauntlet: Spike, Tournament Grinder, Mishra's Workshop, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lupine Prototype Sideboard: Sol Ring, Voltaic Key, Time Vault
    Ninjaman: Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Mox Pearl, Strip mine, Path to Exile
    Bucky: Emmara, Soul of the Accord, Balance, Mox Pearl, Mox Emerald
    Fable Wright: Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Mishra's Workshop, Ensnaring Bridge, Cryptolith Fragment
    Personification: Isamaru, Hound of Konda, Mishra's Workshop, Heraldic Banner, Damping Sphere
    Korith: Hope of Ghirapur, Mishra's Workshop, Anvil of Bogardan, Strip mine
    ben-zayb: Marath, Will of the Wild, Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Mox Lotus

    X G bj B N p K FW bz
    Gauntlet X WL WL WD WW WW WW WW 34
    b_jonas WL X WL WW WW WW WD WW 34
    Bucky WL WL X WL WW WW WD WW 31
    Ninjaman DL LL WL X WW WW WD WW 26
    personification LL LL LL LL X WW WD WW 16
    Korith LL LL LL LL LL X DD WW 8
    Fable Wright LL DD DL DL DL DD X LL 7
    ben-zayb LL LL LL LL LL LL WW X 6

    Gauntlet takes full advantage of the extra life from Commander to utilise Spike to her fullest and gets infinite turns T1 on play (I did say last round that accessing your full sideboard is very powerful). Bucky takes advantage of the command zone to make them discard their entire hand with balance T1. Ninjaman and b_jonas both use T1 Thalia to cripple mana rock and non-creature strategies, backed up with a powerful creature or powerful removal. Fable Wright tries to take advantage of a command zone ability and personification, Korith and ben-zayb use it as just an extra slot.

    For the matches that break/unbreak the ties and with awkward rulings (which all seem to involve Gauntlet. Somebody else's problem next round):
    • Gauntlet beats Fable Wright on draw as Spike as Spike can attack under the bridge during the infinite turns whereas the other three top decks can't.
    • Personification slows down Gauntlet enough with damping sphere on play to make the prototype impossible and to play Isamaru before the infinite turns so the blocker means no one does anything. Damping sphere T1 means he can't get the banner or Isamaru out and loses slowly to Spike. Not playing it T1 but playing Isamaru means prototype comes out and wins the beatdown. The +1/+0 of the banner over Mox Pearl for 3 mana doesn't seem worth it.
    • Ninjaman and b_jonas against Gauntlet on play. Thalia and strip mine limit Gauntlet's options. If the prototype and spike are played, nothing else can be played due to strip mine. Ascendent and path let them win the race. Gauntlet can ignore the prototype, workshop into the diamond into Spike (3 mana remaining), play sol ring and tap it (still 3 mana), play voltaic key (a remaining and untapping the ring doesn't do enough) and pass. Next turn the ring plus voltaic key can cast time vault and can activate it the turn after but has no way to attack effectively due to defending creatures or exile. Comprehensive rules 721 (721.3 for fragmented loops) means only an arbitrary number of additional turns can be taken before passing and ascendant and path allow ninjaman and b_jonas to attack to victory.


    Not declaring winners yet or passing over to b_jonas as it's very close and further mistakes are possible. As a side note, the probable deck I could have chosen would've been crushed (Erayo, Soratami Ascendant, Mox Amber, Mox Sapphire, Memnite).

    ben-zayb almost played a Force of Will deck which could have gone very interesting in this meta. If it was the memnite variant, it would have racked up 5 WW's to go to 30 and leave gauntlet alone on 31.
    Last edited by Tom the Mime; 2019-11-13 at 03:46 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Yeah, my submission was susceptible to damn near every kind of disruption, but I just don't want to pass up on the opportunity to send an entry with Mox Lotus after I gave up on brainstorming a passable Force of Will deck.
    Last edited by ben-zayb; 2019-11-12 at 06:38 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Wow, I didn't expect to get so much score with a deck that I didn't think much about. Four cards just has too many possibilities, so I was less interested in it than in three card. I must thank Jormengard, his deck in Revenge of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind round 24 has Serra Ascendant, that's what gave me the idea. I then just looked among cheap white legeds, chose one that looked halfway nice, and threw in some land destruction because land destruction sure helps more with four card decks than with three cards.

    And I wasn't the only one who thought of land destruction. Ninjaman and Bucky and Korith play fast land destruction too. It's no wonder that we get so many WL.

    Update: ben-zayb's deck is tricky, it wasn't obvious at first how it works. It generates a ton of mana, and then repeatedly cast Marath, Will of the Wild with more and more commander tax, then kills it by spending all its +1/+1 counters. It can deal infinite damage this way.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2019-11-12 at 07:22 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Not really. For you and ninjaman, Thalia did the heavy lifting and land destruction only mattered once. For Bucky, the land destruction didn't matter at all and only would've ever mattered if people used storage lands to play their commander.
    Last edited by Tom the Mime; 2019-11-12 at 07:22 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom the Mime View Post
    As a side note, the probable deck I could have chosen would've been crushed (Erayo, Soratami Ascendant, Mox Amber, Mox Sapphire, Memnite).
    This deck is nonfunctional because Mox Amber can't tap for mana to play Erayo, right?



    Quote Originally Posted by Tom the Mime View Post
    Not really. For you and ninjaman, Thalia did the heavy lifting and land destruction only mattered once. For Bucky, the land destruction didn't matter at all and only would've ever mattered if people used storage lands to play their commander.
    My land destruction would also matter on the draw vs Mishra's Factory+Soul Ring.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Note that Oloro gains Fable Wright life as fast as or faster than he loses it to Thalia or Hope of Ghirapur, but he still dies to commander damage.
    Last edited by Bucky; 2019-11-12 at 08:11 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Felt like my choice was kind of obvious, which it was given that someone else posted mostly the same deck, but glad it worked still.
    It's funny that the choice between Serra Ascendant and Path never mattered.

    The land destruction mattered both in the mirror and against Gauntlet, right?
    Last edited by Ninjaman; 2019-11-13 at 01:01 AM.
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  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    This deck is nonfunctional because Mox Amber can't tap for mana to play Erayo, right?
    For some reason I thought it was only to pay for legendaries. Lotus petal then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    My land destruction would also matter on the draw vs Mishra's Factory+Soul Ring.
    It might if you ever got a turn against Gauntlet on draw. Which you don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    Note that Oloro gains Fable Wright life as fast as or faster than he loses it to Thalia or Hope of Ghirapur, but he still dies to commander damage.
    If they could attack through ensnaring bridge. Which they can on play but not draw for Thalia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Felt like my choice was kind of obvious, which it was given that someone else posted mostly the same deck, but glad it worked still.
    It's funny that the choice between Serra Ascendant and Path never mattered.

    The land destruction mattered both in the mirror and against Gauntlet, right?
    Just against Gauntlet. Thalia stops the pearl and then the deck is dead in the water.
    Last edited by Tom the Mime; 2019-11-13 at 04:24 AM.
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  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom the Mime View Post
    Just against Gauntlet. Thalia stops the pearl and then the deck is dead in the water.
    Pearl can be cast from the Strip Mine through Thalia's tax.
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  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Good point. Doesn't change results because as you said, strip mine takes the other mine out so whoever is on draw has a stranded Thalia and the other threats cancel.
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    (I think I can draw the game against Ninjaman even when he plays first. (The table says that I lose.) In my first turn, I play my Strip Mine, draw {C} from it, and cast the Mox. In my second turn, I use my Strip Mine to destroy Ninjaman's Strip Mine if he hasn't destroyed mine yet. In either case, in the turns after that, he only has access to one mana. In my third turn, I cast Serra Ascendant from my Mox. I never use my own Thalia. (1) If, in my third turn, if Ninjaman has Thalia on the battlefield, then he can't play Path to Exile. He can't kill his Thalia by blocking either, because I never have a Thalia, and my Ascendant is flying. In my fourth turn, I still have at least 32 life, so the Ascendant is 6/6 with flying and lifelink. I keep attacking with the Ascendnat and win. (2) If, in my third turn, Ninjaman doesn't have Thalia on the battlefield, then he won't have it ever, because he only has access to one mana, so he can't cast it. The best he can do is to kill my Ascendant with Path to Exile, which results in an infinite game where neither of us have a creature and we never deal damage.) Update: that analysis is wrong, ignore it. Ninjaman can hold back his own Strip Mine. I think I still draw the game, but I have to write it down properly. Four cards just make these games too complicated.

    I haven't analyzed the other games yet.

    Update: new try.

    I think I can draw the game against Ninjaman if he has first turn. (The table says that I lose.)

    In my first turn, I play my Strip Mine, draw {C} from it, and cast the Mox. After that, I wait for Ninjaman to cast Thalia. If he never does that, then he can't win, and the game ends in an infinite loop draw. If he does cast Thalia, then he had to use his Strip Mine to pay for it. I then use my Strip Mine to destroy his Stripe Mine when I can. If Ninjaman casts Thalia in his first turn, then I have to wait for this in my second turn, because I need the mana from Stripe Mine to cast the Mox; if he plays it later, then I just use my Strip Mine on his turn. In any case, starting from the turn after his Strip Mine is gone, Ninjaman has access to only one Mana, and he has a Thalia out, so he can't pay for Path to Exile anymore because of Thalia's lodestone effect. The exception is if Ninjaman casts Thalia his first turn and Path to Exile on his own Thalia in his second turn, in which he can't cast Path to Exile again. In any case, in my turn after the Strip Mine is gone, I play Serra Ascendant, but don't attack with it. I wait for Ninjaman to attack with his Thalia. If he never attacks, then the game is a draw. If he does attack, then I block it. At this point, Ninjaman could have dealt at most 6 damage to me, so Serra Ascendant is still big, so it kills Thalia and the Ascendant survives. Thalia can never come back because Ninjaman can't afford its {1}{W} mana cost together with {2} commander tax. I win with the Ascendant. (I think I don't even need to block: I can just attack with Serra Ascendant and kill Ninjaman right before I lose to commander damage, but I'm not sure I got the numbers right.)

    I win against Ninjaman if I have first turn, just like the table says. For this, in my first turn play Strip Mine, Mox, Thalia. I attack with Thalia whenever I can. Ninjaman can only pay for his Mox through the extra cost from my Thalia, so he has to tap his own Strip Mine for that. If he plays the Mox that way, I then destroy his Strip Mine with mine, before his Strip Mine untaps. Ninjaman will thus only have access to at most one mana, and so he can play neither Thalia nor Path to Exile. I win with Thalia.

    Update: Me versus Bucky is a WL like the table says. If Bucky starts, he plays two Moxes and then Balance in his first turn. The Balance doesn't affect his commander, so he can still play that later, but I have to discard my mana sources. If I start, then I play Thalia in my first turn, and Bucky can't play his mana sources.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2019-11-13 at 11:02 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    When Ninjaman is on the play against me:

    - Ninjaman plays Mox - Mine - Thalia turn one, since otherwise he loses.

    - I play Workshop, Prototype, and LED, then pass.

    - If Ninjaman uses Strip Mine on my Workshop, he can't pay for Path any more, and Prototype outclasses Thalia, so I win.

    - If Ninjaman uses or holds up Path, I can play Spike, get my sideboard, and cast the Ring and the Vault, with the Key in hand and castable through Thalia off Sol Ring despite Strip Mine. I still can't win because Thalia blocks, but if Thalia ever attacks I can take infinite turns and kill with Spike, so neither player can do anything and it's a draw.

  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Both of those were issues with me forgetting Thalia was symmetrical. Fixed.

    With that in mind now though, I can't see ninjaman's path to a draw on play:
    • Do nothing or just play the mox. b_jonas plays Thalia. If ninja exiles it, the path is free for ascendant on a 7 turn clock. If he doesn't, he has to cast Thalia to avoid being nibbled to death but now ascendant can come out due to both the land destruction and the double Thalia tax. b_jonas can't block without letting ascendant be exiled but ascendant is a shorter clock than commander damage.
    • Play mox and strip mine and hold. Thalia comes out for b_jonas. Strip mining b_jonas doesn't help and if he doesn't, the same path is followed as last time.
    • Play Thalia. b_jonas gets mox pearl out and passes. Ninja attacks for 2. b_jonas destroys strip mine in the first main phase then plays ascendant in the second main phase when ninja can't have the mana for exile. b_jonas can't block without leaving himself open for exile but a 6/6/flyer needs only needs 7 turns and ninja needs another 10 so that doesn't help.


    Let me know if that makes sense or not.
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Damn, looks like Path wasn't the right card after all.
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  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    It looks like I really should've forgotten the clever command zone interactions and just deployed my "almost-possible deck that countered my entire round 1 gauntlet, but didn't work because it sorta hated itself out too".

    The right commander lets it work, and it'd almost earn a clean sweep - it WWs everyone but Gauntlet, including my own deck and the unsubmitted Erayo concoction. Unfortunately, while it can break up the T1 infinite turns combo, it can't deal with T1 Lupine Prototype on the play backed by the threat of infinite turns...

    Oh well, I guess hindsight is half the fun.
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    I'll call it there but I'll change the ban list if the results change again.

    Gold: Gauntlet, b_jonas
    Balancing act: Bucky
    Thalia was hoisted on her own petard: Ninjaman
    Does this smell of wet dog: personification
    False Hope: Korith
    Didn't age well: Fable Wright
    Overchanneling: ben-zayb

    Ban list:
    Spoiler: Ban list: Round 6
    Show

    Land: City of Traitors, Strip Mine, Mishra's Workshop

    Artifact/Colourless : Blacker Lotus, Black Lotus, Karn, the Great Creator, The Rack, Liquimetal Coating, Mana Crypt, Lodestone Golem, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lupine Prototype, Sol Ring, Time Vault, Voltaic Key, Mox Pearl

    White: Chancellor of the Annex, The Cheese Stands Alone, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Serra Ascendant

    Blue: Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Laboratory Maniac

    Black: Street Wraith, Spike, Tournament Grinder

    Green: Crashing Footfalls

    Red: Empty

    Gold: Empty


    And I will hand over to b_jonas for round 6. Don't send your decks to me, send them to him.
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  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Tom the Mime: yes, I think your argument is correct that I win against Ninjaman even on draw.

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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    A new Wizards product called Mystery Boosters has 121 new cards that are not legal to play in any format except Mystery Booster draft. It is likely that some of these will be somewhat broken, so they may come up. I presume that these are legal in three-card blind, just like how cards from Un-sets are legal. There is also a ruling by TiaC that cards in new products are legal before the release of that product, as soon as Wizards reveals the card. There's no ful spoiler for Mystery Boosters yet, but the release notes for Mystery Booster is released now, and, as usual, it has the full text of many of the new card. I believe that you can use cards in the deck when the full text is known, even if we don't know their art and artist and some Un-cards may care about that. But of course Tom the Mime might have a different opinion. Update: the images of those cards are known now from leaks, but not released officially by Wizards yet afaik.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2019-11-14 at 10:38 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    In that case, I'm not going to participate until I have the ability to confirm that a purported card isn't in Mystery Boosters.
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  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    In that case, I'm not going to participate until I have the ability to confirm that a purported card isn't in Mystery Boosters.
    All 121 new cards are known, just not officially released by Wizards yet. See the list at Scryfall. There are also 1694 reprints in the set, but those are all reprints of cards that are already legal in Vintage. We know the list of names, but I think we don't know for certain which old image they have when the card already has multiple prints. Do you never participate during the preview seasons of standard-legal sets either by the way?
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2019-11-14 at 10:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Oh joy. Another lotus.
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    For the purpose of Underdog, what order are games played in within a match?
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    For the purpose of Underdog, what order are games played in within a match?
    I'd assume the order that is the worst for you.
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    Default Re: Return of the MTG: Vanishing Three Card Blind - Once upon a time there was a 3CB

    Not my call anymore but I'd be tempted to rule each as a separate match because the worst case scenario breaks down in a mirror match. Although I don't see a 3/2 (or a 4/3 ( first strike with lifelink for 4 being good enough for multiple people to pick it for a while.
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