OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

[Aniaas]

Ok... crazy theory time... could the Eastern Gods be behind it all?

We've only got the current gods idea that they were all killed on the First World, and the gods:
a) have admitted their nature and minds shift based on their believers
b) don't know about the world in the rift, so clearly don't have all the facts

the IFCC seems to have either circumvented the inter-world-mind-wipe policy or had help from an outside source...

So could we be looking at some unbelievably long play in the gods initial creation-squabble? One where the Eastern gods have the original world all to themselves for sustenance, and are pursuing the other gods across the multiverse in an attempt to gain their quiddities, as without them, they can't reshape the First World to their every whim (seeing as it was originally constructed by four pantheons). The Snarl in this case would be their weapon rather than a mistake.

[D.One]

Ok... crazy theory time... could the Eastern Gods be behind it all?

We've only got the current gods idea that they were all killed on the First World, and the gods:
a) have admitted their nature and minds shift based on their believers
b) don't know about the world in the rift, so clearly don't have all the facts

the IFCC seems to have either circumvented the inter-world-mind-wipe policy or had help from an outside source...

So could we be looking at some unbelievably long play in the gods initial creation-squabble? One where the Eastern gods have the original world all to themselves for sustenance, and are pursuing the other gods across the multiverse in an attempt to gain their quiddities, as without them, they can't reshape the First World to their every whim (seeing as it was originally constructed by four pantheons). The Snarl in this case would be their weapon rather than a mistake.

It's implied, although not stated, that the IFCC might not know about the gates prior to Sabine informing them.

[Athas]

I don't know if they're referring specifically to Tarquin or not.
But I think it's safe to say that he'll surely show up. Considering the cliffhanger we got with him and .... well... if it's the last book - doesn't that mean all characters should have a personal enemy or agenda?

Meh I doubt it. I think the whole point of the Tarquin arc was that he wasn't important. He's been dismissed as such.

I honestly feel like bring him back would undermine one of my favourite strips. 0936 (which I don't have permission to link) and I think that's the point of the characters arc. Even though I strongly disagree with Tarquin in the last panel. The point of Tarquin is to show that Elan has grown. Bringing him back undermines all of this.
-------------
Supprised you need multiple posts to post a link to the comic.

[Peelee]

I don't know if they're referring specifically to Tarquin or not.
But I think it's safe to say that he'll surely show up.

I'll take that bet.

Personal theory: Tarquin's gone. The best way to defeat him is to deny him everything he wants. In a conventional story, yes, he'd likely show up again, and he knows this, so he won't because that denies him his resolution. He gets the "terrible ending," he gets defeated off-screen, he doesn't get what he wants.

[MossyMeow]

I'll take that bet.

Personal theory: Tarquin's gone. The best way to defeat him is to deny him everything he wants. In a conventional story, yes, he'd likely show up again, and he knows this, so he won't because that denies him his resolution. He gets the "terrible ending," he gets defeated off-screen, he doesn't get what he wants.

But on the other hand, showing up again only to be used as a tool for the real villains is also a terrible fate for Tarquin, especially if the person who killed/captured him is his late, useless son’s lover...who is not just a woman, but also a person of color. I can’t think of a better insult for the sexist straight white man who fancies himself the main villain.

[Peelee]

But on the other hand, showing up again only to be used as a tool for the real villains is also a terrible fate for Tarquin, especially if the person who killed/captured him is his late, useless son’s lover...who is not just a woman, but also a person of color. I can’t think of a better insult for the sexist straight white man who fancies himself the main villain.

I can; defeated by Amun-Zora offscreen. POC woman beats him, who isn't even related to him and is a tiny side character, and he doesn't even get any more screen time.

[Schroeswald]

I can; defeated by Amun-Zora offscreen. POC woman beats him, who isn't even related to him and is a tiny side character, and he doesn't even get any more screen time.

And then icing on the cake, the rest of the Vector Legion (which are all non-white), return because of the Snarl stuff in 945, they're basically set dressing to him and if Malack was like his favorite china (I know there are Giant quotes about those two) then they are just some plates he owns.

[Ron Miel]

What has "person of color" got to do with it? Has there ever been any indication that there exists any prejudice in Stickworld based on skin colour?

[Schroeswald]

What has "person of color" got to do with it? Has there ever been any indication that there exists any prejudice in Stickworld based on skin colour?

I don't own BRITF but its something from that commentary about Tarquin's racism, a few threads back we even got it quoted.

[Petrocorus]

M
Supprised you need multiple posts to post a link to the comic.

IIRC, you need a 10 posts count. This is to avoid spamming.

What has "person of color" got to do with it? Has there ever been any indication that there exists any prejudice in Stickworld based on skin colour?

It comes from a commentary of The Giant in "Blood Runs In The Family". There is apparently a subtext about race / skin colour in Tarquin's arc.
Though it is so subtle it is completely invisible in the comic proper.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It wasn't to me. It was blindingly obvious that Tarquin wanted his (White Male) offspring in charge, rather than the existing group structure of (Black Male) and (White Female). Also, every third speech balloon from him was something sexist and/or derogatory of others.

[MossyMeow]

I can; defeated by Amun-Zora offscreen. POC woman beats him, who isn't even related to him and is a tiny side character, and he doesn't even get any more screen time.

That’s actually brilliant, and I think I prefer it. In fact, in the epilogue Elan could go to defeat Tarquin (as part of Order of the Stick 2: Order Stickier, of course) only to find Amun-Zora in charge. Durkon raises her husband from the dead, and her dynasty is a long and peaceful rule.

[Peelee]

That’s actually brilliant, and I think I prefer it. In fact, in the epilogue Elan could go to defeat Tarquin (as part of Order of the Stick 2: Order Stickier, of course) only to find Amun-Zora in charge. Durkon raises her husband from the dead, and her dynasty is a long and peaceful rule.

If that doesn't happen then I vote we go write our own ending for the comic.

[Nomen]

I actually like the epalog the way it is. I like the fact that the Giant gave enough clues so we can know he's likely going to be defeated by the woman Haley's dad signed up with while having the scene barley about him and more about Ian finding his next group.

[Fyraltari]

If that doesn't happen then I vote we go write our own ending for the comic.

Take it to the fanfiction sites!
No seriously, do.

[Skull the Troll]

"... no, that doesn't make any sense. Spell component requirements are set out in prices, not weight, volume, or mass, so either the items have intrinsic value for the purposes of spellcasting, in which case buying and selling has no effect, or the value is set at whatever value I purchased them at, in which case arbitrary transactions made solely for the purpose of inflating price are a legitimate tactic. Let's experiment, shall we? I, Vaarsuvius, sell a single gram's worth of ruby to Vaarsuvius for 1,500 gp. I agree to these terms, I submit payment to myself via an account held in escrow, payment has been neurologically logged as received, a receipt has been psychically transmitted, thank you for your business, let us see if the single gram's worth of ruby is consumed or multiple so that I know whether I need to open up a self-serve warehouse club for myself while you are encased within your magical container."[*ping*]

The whole idea of having it in value in RAW was dumb in the first place. The value of anything is what you can get someone to pay for it. By that sense V's rubies still have value because instead of casting the spell she could likely sell them for the given price. But what if shes in a place that considers Rubies to be the blood of evil gods? You couldn't sell them to anyone at any price because they don't want them. They wrote RAW to make the spell something that would cost the player something of value. Magic often takes intent into account, saying "I wouldn't sell this speck of ruby for 50,000 gp" as a way of gaming the system is something the laws of magic (ie the DM) wouldn't allow. Receiving a gift of value instead of paying gold for value makes no difference. The rubies are worth whatever they are generally worth in that area.

[Peelee]

The whole idea of having it in value in RAW was dumb in the first place.

It would be if there was a functional economy in the game, but there isn't (and there isn't meant to be). It's a mechanic designed to make the spell have a cost, it functions well since money is static in these games (if you discover a mountain made of gold, the price of gold does not drop accordingly), and they wanted something more than "it costs 1,500 gold" to give variety and a small layer of difficulty/scarcity to it.

Heck, the Elemental Plane of Earth being infinite should already mean precious metals and gemstones are effectively worthless as units of currency, and yet they're not, because the economic mechanics are only put in place in service to the roleplaying and fighting mechanics. Beat monster, get stuff. In this case, that stuff is gold.

[Jasdoif]

The whole idea of having it in value in RAW was dumb in the first place. The value of anything is what you can get someone to pay for it. By that sense V's rubies still have value because instead of casting the spell she could likely sell them for the given price. But what if shes in a place that considers Rubies to be the blood of evil gods? You couldn't sell them to anyone at any price because they don't want them. They wrote RAW to make the spell something that would cost the player something of value. Magic often takes intent into account, saying "I wouldn't sell this speck of ruby for 50,000 gp" as a way of gaming the system is something the laws of magic (ie the DM) wouldn't allow. Receiving a gift of value instead of paying gold for value makes no difference. The rubies are worth whatever they are generally worth in that area.

On the contrary: several points throughout the rules (primarily the ones for magic item creation) show that in the realm of magic, the gold piece standard is tied to the universal multiversal experience point standard; magic has an intrinsic value for rubies regardless of what price is paid for them. Listing ruby spell components by price is just as accurate as listing them by volume, without requiring extra steps needing to converting between gold and whatever other unit of measure when a spell component is purchased and when a spell using the component is cast; and as a bonus obviating needing to establish a ratio between gold and whatever other unit of measure...because players are unlikely to care about spell components past whether they can cast the corresponding spells.

[The Shadow]

All this talk of a certain spell reminds me of a truly evil trick our GM pulled on us back in 2e.

At low level, we ran into this half-drow necromancer who was a real schemer. Thoroughly evil bastard. We finally killed him and ransacked his lair, finding that he had the habit of keeping weirdly detailed notes of his plots. That enabled us to put a stop to several nasty things that were going on.

A while later, we ran into him again. This time we killed him with EXTREME prejudice. We burned his head and body in separate fires, and scattered the ashes in widely-separated locations. It didn't seem likely that anyone would like him enough to cast Wish for his sake, so we figured we were done with him. Once again, we used his notes to put a stop to his plans.

When we ran into him *again* at 9th level or so, we looked daggers at the GM and picked up dice to throw. He said smugly, "TRUST me. It will all make sense."

Eventually we figured it out. This guy had researched a version of Simulacrum that left a realistic corpse behind instead of ice and snow. He was making simulacra of himself to further his plots across the continent because he didn't trust anybody else. Naturally, since this was the 2e version of the spell, they varied greatly in level. And they kept such elaborate notes because they only shared a fraction of the original's memories.

So suddenly we realized that somewhere, no idea where, there was a half-drow necromancer archmage *at least* double our level with continent-spanning ambition. And we had foiled him enough that maybe he might consider taking time out of his busy schedule to obliterate us. (Yes, the notes of the latest simulacrum mentioned us as potential trouble-makers.)

You should have heard the GM cackle! It was a sound to strike fear into the boldest of hearts.

[MossyMeow]

Just had a thought:

All the suggestions put forth so far about the purpose of the rubies have assumed (at least from I've gathered) that Rich purposefully included spell components as part of the plot, since he only loosely follows D&D rules nowadays. Don't get me wrong, I still think that the rubies are a hint, or at the very least a red herring, but could it be possible that he introduced spell components simply to keep a check on V, who is now an ultra-powerful spellcaster? Maybe this new development is just to make sure V can't cast super-powerful spells whenever.

Then again, my argument could be based on facts I assumed but nobody actually agrees with because I didn't check the thread beforehand to see if my assumptions are even reasonably correct. In that case, ignore like 90% of what I just said, because I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[factotum]

All the suggestions put forth so far about the purpose of the rubies have assumed (at least from I've gathered) that Rich purposefully included spell components as part of the plot, since he only loosely follows D&D rules nowadays. Don't get me wrong, I still think that the rubies are a hint, or at the very least a red herring, but could it be possible that he introduced spell components simply to keep a check on V, who is now an ultra-powerful spellcaster? Maybe this new development is just to make sure V can't cast super-powerful spells whenever.

I don't think this is any more than a joke, same way Haley having to fetch the diamond from the cast page was required in order to resurrect Roy. Also, rubies only really matter for Forcecage, as V points out, other spells have different material components.

[Petrocorus]

All this talk of ... trouble-makers.)

You should have heard the GM cackle! It was a sound to strike fear into the boldest of hearts.

I'm totally stealing your DM's idea.

[Fyraltari]

All this talk of a certain spell reminds of a truly evil trick our GM pulled on us back in 2e.

At low level, we ran into this half-drow necromancer who was a real schemer. Thoroughly evil bastard. We finally killed him and ransacked his lair, finding that he had the habit of keeping weirdly detailed notes of his plots. That enabled us to put a stop to several nasty things that were going on.

A while later, we ran into him again. This time we killed him with EXTREME prejudice. We burned his head and body in separate fires, and scattered the ashes in widely-separated locations. It didn't seem likely that anyone would like him enough to cast Wish for his sake, so we figured we were done with him. Once again, we used his notes to put a stop to his plans.

When we ran into him *again* at 9th level or so, we looked daggers at the GM and picked up dice to throw. He said smugly, "TRUST me. It will all make sense."

Eventually we figured it out. This guy had researched a version of Simulacrum that left a realistic corpse behind instead of ice and snow. He was making simulacra of himself to further his plots across the continent because he didn't trust anybody else. Naturally, since this was the 2e version of the spell, they varied greatly in level. And they kept such elaborate notes because they only shared a fraction of the original's memories.

So suddenly we realized that somewhere, no idea where, there was a half-drow necromancer archmage *at least* double our level with continent-spanning ambition. And we had foiled him enough that maybe he might consider taking time out of his busy schedule to obliterate us. (Yes, the notes of the latest simulacrum mentioned us as potential trouble-makers.)

You should have heard the GM cackle! It was a sound to strike fear into the boldest of hearts.

Come on, don’t leave us hanging. Did you fight the real one eventually or what?

[Peelee]

Come on, don’t leave us hanging. Did you fight the real one eventually or what?

Well, it was a simulated fight.

[The Shadow]

I'm totally stealing your DM's idea.

Go for it! The notes made a great springboard to further adventures. "He" didn't have to show up that often to give us plenty to do.

EDIT: I will never forget the feeling of bewilderment I had when the notes mentioned us. "Wait a minute, why did he need to leave himself notes about us, doesn't he *remember*?!" Only later did we manage to decipher the spell from his book that let us piece everything together.

Come on, don’t leave us hanging. Did you fight the real one eventually or what?

Unfortunately no. The vagaries of growing up meant the group gradually fell apart. Another campaign in the same world did tangle with the Cabal of evil mages he was part of, though.

[Anitar]

We're talking about Tarquin's inevitable defeat again? Then here's my theory: He's already dead. Killed so quickly and easily that he's not even a footnote in the new history books. So he's not available for any infernal schemes-- or at least, his living body isn't.

[Mad Humanist]

We're talking about Tarquin's inevitable defeat again? Then here's my theory: He's already dead. Killed so quickly and easily that he's not even a footnote in the new history books. So he's not available for any infernal schemes-- or at least, his living body isn't.

Well I could totally see this happening. For her holiday, Sabine changed into a resistance fighter. That is really straightforward for her and as it happens there is a resistance army currently targetted at Tarquin. Sabine genuinely cares about the cause and could greatly contribute to it. I don't think we will see Tarquin's death, probably not even in flashback, but his corpse coming back as part of some IFCC plot would make sense on multiple levels. There are still plenty of details that this does not elucidate however.

[M.A.D]

the IFCC seems to have either circumvented the inter-world-mind-wipe policy or had help from an outside source...

They probably read the OOTS' back catalog.

[Cazero]

the IFCC seems to have either circumvented the inter-world-mind-wipe policy or had help from an outside source...

Call me crazy, but I don't think Ganonron had a thousand planes to conquer on this iteration of the world, so all you have to do to know about the big holes in your memory is check on his cred.

[Jannoire]

It wasn't to me. It was blindingly obvious that Tarquin wanted his (White Male) offspring in charge, rather than the existing group structure of (Black Male) and (White Female). Also, every third speech balloon from him was something sexist and/or derogatory of others.

So, you're saying that Tarquin wouldn't mind Elan being a second string character, if Roy were white?
I highly doubt it...