OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

[hroþila]

Call me crazy, but I don't think Ganonron had a thousand planes to conquer on this iteration of the world, so all you have to do to know about the big holes in your memory is check on his cred.

I doubt that was meant to mean "literally one thousand worlds" rather than "a conventionally large number of worlds", but anyway, they don't need to be just other planes, they could also involve isolated geographic areas (like whole continents or islands), and even other planets.

[HorizonWalker]

I doubt that was meant to mean "literally one thousand worlds" rather than "a conventionally large number of worlds", but anyway, they don't need to be just other planes, they could also involve isolated geographic areas (like whole continents or islands), and even other planets.

It also could've been large demiplanes that some wizard built ages and ages ago, and made large enough to support human life. The Outer Planes aren't the only planes, after all.

[The MunchKING]

It would be if there was a functional economy in the game, but there isn't (and there isn't meant to be).

It's not exactly relevant to the discussion at hand, but an interesting piece of fluff I remember reading was the idea that wizards were basically scientists trying to study a weird and esoteric energy field that had very weird rules on what it did. So to Arcane spells "A gem of X Value" was shorthand for needing a gem of a specific clarity, facets, refraction, etc. to make the magic work.

However for Clerics is was more about convincing a God that it was important enough for the God to give you some of their power to do something miraculous. So the 5,000 GP worth of diamonds was more of a sacrifice, to tell the God "this person is so important, I'm willing to sacrifice 5,000 GP to being them back. And because it's harder (and thus more of a sacrifice) to make it in diamonds, I have done that according to your specifications too."

What that would mean for the discussion is, that if a GM wanted to fudge how valuable a sufficiently high-quality gem for Arcane magic was worth, the quality of the gem would be the key issue. But the Gods aren't taking diamonds you didn't spend 5,000 GP on or put at least 5,000 GP worth of effort into (like as loot at the end of a quest).

Heck, the Elemental Plane of Earth being infinite should already mean precious metals and gemstones are effectively worthless as units of currency

Well it's only worthless if the precious metals/gemstones are infinite as well (or close enough for you to devalue them significantly) AND close enough to the surface to be found and mined on an industrial level. If the gold is infinite but also buried infinitely deep, then you won't be able to get to them, and it can't devalue your economy. If it's not infinite, then once you mine it, it just settles them at a new baseline value.

[HorizonWalker]

Well it's only worthless if the precious metals/gemstones are infinite as well (or close enough for you to devalue them significantly) AND close enough to the surface to be found and mined on an industrial level. If the gold is infinite but also buried infinitely deep, then you won't be able to get to them, and it can't devalue your economy. If it's not infinite, then once you mine it, it just settles them at a new baseline value.

The Elemental Plane of Earth doesn't have a surface. It's an endless expanse of caverns and rock.

As for its resources, either they're as infinite as the plane is, or they're incredibly rare to the point of practically not existing, due to the nature of infinity. Considering that the major roadblock to "why don't they just mine out the Plane of Earth?" is "do you know how hard it is to find a ninth-level cleric willing to burn their highest-level spell slots ferrying rocks and miners back and forth?" I think most designers will shrug and say "Yeah, it's infinite resources, they're just hard to get to."

[KorvinStarmast]

The Elemental Plane of Earth doesn't have a surface. It's an endless expanse of caverns and rock.

As for its resources, either they're as infinite as the plane is, or they're incredibly rare to the point of practically not existing, due to the nature of infinity. Considering that the major roadblock to "why don't they just mine out the Plane of Earth?" is "do you know how hard it is to find a ninth-level cleric willing to burn their highest-level spell slots ferrying rocks and miners back and forth?" I think most designers will shrug and say "Yeah, it's infinite resources, they're just hard to get to."

Not to mention Earth Elementals fighting back at people who are kidnapping their children.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Just had a thought:

All the suggestions put forth so far about the purpose of the rubies have assumed (at least from I've gathered) that Rich purposefully included spell components as part of the plot, since he only loosely follows D&D rules nowadays. Don't get me wrong, I still think that the rubies are a hint, or at the very least a red herring, but could it be possible that he introduced spell components simply to keep a check on V, who is now an ultra-powerful spellcaster? Maybe this new development is just to make sure V can't cast super-powerful spells whenever.

Then again, my argument could be based on facts I assumed but nobody actually agrees with because I didn't check the thread beforehand to see if my assumptions are even reasonably correct. In that case, ignore like 90% of what I just said, because I have no idea what I'm talking about.

At this point, Rich really doesn't need to nerf V much. They're going after Team Evil and will need V's power to survive.

Also, if the world was just made rather than congealed out of the cosmic dust most of the precious metals probably aren't locked in the mantle.

[Jasdoif]

Also, if the world was just made rather than congealed out of the cosmic dust most of the precious metals probably aren't locked in the mantle.

Maybe the precious metals were placed there intentionally, as part of a plot to incentivize/subsidize volcano lairs and/or other subterranean stereotypes, to reinforce the world's fantasy parody theme?

[CriticalFailure]

It could always be published as one book with multiple physical books if it is too long. Like Cyteen or other books.

[woweedd]

It's not exactly relevant to the discussion at hand, but an interesting piece of fluff I remember reading was the idea that wizards were basically scientists trying to study a weird and esoteric energy field that had very weird rules on what it did. So to Arcane spells "A gem of X Value" was shorthand for needing a gem of a specific clarity, facets, refraction, etc. to make the magic work.

However for Clerics is was more about convincing a God that it was important enough for the God to give you some of their power to do something miraculous. So the 5,000 GP worth of diamonds was more of a sacrifice, to tell the God "this person is so important, I'm willing to sacrifice 5,000 GP to being them back. And because it's harder (and thus more of a sacrifice) to make it in diamonds, I have done that according to your specifications too."

What that would mean for the discussion is, that if a GM wanted to fudge how valuable a sufficiently high-quality gem for Arcane magic was worth, the quality of the gem would be the key issue. But the Gods aren't taking diamonds you didn't spend 5,000 GP on or put at least 5,000 GP worth of effort into (like as loot at the end of a quest).



Well it's only worthless if the precious metals/gemstones are infinite as well (or close enough for you to devalue them significantly) AND close enough to the surface to be found and mined on an industrial level. If the gold is infinite but also buried infinitely deep, then you won't be able to get to them, and it can't devalue your economy. If it's not infinite, then once you mine it, it just settles them at a new baseline value.

In the words of one of my favorite quotes:
"There are a bunch of scientists who specialize in magic! They're called wizards!"

[Rrmcklin]

Ok... crazy theory time... could the Eastern Gods be behind it all?

We've only got the current gods idea that they were all killed on the First World, and the gods:
a) have admitted their nature and minds shift based on their believers
b) don't know about the world in the rift, so clearly don't have all the facts

the IFCC seems to have either circumvented the inter-world-mind-wipe policy or had help from an outside source...

So could we be looking at some unbelievably long play in the gods initial creation-squabble? One where the Eastern gods have the original world all to themselves for sustenance, and are pursuing the other gods across the multiverse in an attempt to gain their quiddities, as without them, they can't reshape the First World to their every whim (seeing as it was originally constructed by four pantheons). The Snarl in this case would be their weapon rather than a mistake.

The gods might not know everything, but I think you're going to be disappointed if you create a theory that hinges on them being wrong on such a fundamental fact as "The Snarl can kill us and did to an entire pantheon".

You are not the first person to propose something like this, and I still don't get the appeal of it. And, no, the IFCC don't seem to have circumvented the mind-wipe (certainly a possibility, but not somehow likely at this point), and I'm still bemused by what about this strip has made some people think they have.

[deuterio12]

Ok... crazy theory time... could the Eastern Gods be behind it all?

We've only got the current gods idea that they were all killed on the First World, and the gods:
a) have admitted their nature and minds shift based on their believers
b) don't know about the world in the rift, so clearly don't have all the facts

a) is just another divine lie since Thor's worshipers are all fanatic tree-haters to the point they created an order dedicated to hunting down trees and yet thor himself plants trees all over his supposed paradise.

The gods might not know everything, but I think you're going to be disappointed if you create a theory that hinges on them being wrong on such a fundamental fact as "The Snarl can kill us and did to an entire pantheon".

Why not? Hel got herself starving to death since she signed up for a bet where she only gets some food scraps when Thor and Loki don't decide to come up with yet another new definition for "honor". And that's not mentioning the bit where she also gave up the ability to create clerics among the living which is a massive handicap in gathering food. Those sound like pretty newbie mistakes for a goddess who's supposed to been doing this for zillions of years.

Plus consider the following:
-Odin, Thor/Loki and Hel form at least three generations of gods (father, children and grandchildren)
-New gods can be created.
-Gods can die.

So seems like Hel may be a relatively new god that's still learning the ropes.

Thus for all we know, thor/loki may've not even been present at the snarl creation as well and are just repeating a story they've heard from previous gods. Maybe not even Odin was there.

[hroþila]

a) is just another divine lie since Thor's worshipers are all fanatic tree-haters

Not true. Dwarves are not Thor's only worshippers.

[Theshipening]

a) is just another divine lie since Thor's worshipers are all fanatic tree-haters to the point they created an order dedicated to hunting down trees and yet thor himself plants trees all over his supposed paradise.

Not only are the dwarves not his only worshippers, gods take a long time to change. Consider Odin, who still hasn’t recovered from the previous world thinking magic is dumb, in a world where magic is widely accepted.

Plus, Thor didn’t tell his priests that he hates trees, it was made based on observation of lightning smiting them, so that tree-hating dogma is, if not recent, at least not as old as this world.

Also, Loki commented on the mortals changing the way he can act when only Thor was there. Unless you believe Loki somehow convinced Thor of the whole belief thing, despite Thor being a god himself ?

[Cazero]

Plus, Thor didn’t tell his priests that he hates trees, it was made based on observation of lightning smiting them, so that tree-hating dogma is, if not recent, at least not as old as this world.

It probably started with tree roots messing with their tunnels to establish the original narrative of "trees are Evil". Then it's confirmation bias. Of course Thor would smite Evil things like trees, that only confirm how Evil the trees are for messing with our tunnels.

[brian 333]

On the value of rubies:

1st ed. had a whole chapter devoted to economics, a major section of which was the valuation of gems. Instead of detailing the various qualities of gems, (size, cut, clarity, color, lustre, etc.) which would make every gem consume half an hour to appraise, gems were given one value in gp and it was left to the player to decide if it was a flawless, perfectly cut tiny gem or a massive uncut gem in the rough. The only quality that mattered was that it was a 1000gp diamond.

Note that this is its appraisal value, which has nothing to do with what anyone actually paid, or didn't pay, for it. As a spell component, when discussing the value of a gem, only the base appraisal value matters.

Vaarsuvius correctly states that a few grams of ruby dust is sufficient for casting the spell because no matter the price of the gems, their appraisal value is a constant.

Note that this also eliminates any concerns about inflation or deflation because a 500gp gem is a 500gp gem whether the character can buy it for 5gp or 50,000gp.

Not as fun as some of the other theories, I know, but the 1st ed. DMG spent a lot of time on things the newer editions just assumed everyone understood.

[deuterio12]

Not only are the dwarves not his only worshippers,

That would only be a relevant point if we had seen a non-dwarf thor-worshiper that doesn't hate trees.

gods take a long time to change. Consider Odin, who still hasn’t recovered from the previous world thinking magic is dumb, in a world where magic is widely accepted.

That's only thor's side of the story of why Odin is crazy.

And quite conveniently allow both Thor and Loki to call the shots around their pantheon while Odin's too crazy to order them around.

Just like Loki conveniently going "oh it's totally not my fault that I'm a compulsive liar. It's the fault of those pesky mortals. That we created and guided."

Meanwhile it's a fact that a)every Thor worshiper seen on the story hates trees and b)thor actually likes trees enough to plant them around his "paradise".

The facts seen directly contradict the stories.

Plus, Thor didn’t tell his priests that he hates trees, it was made based on observation of lightning smiting them, so that tree-hating dogma is, if not recent, at least not as old as this world.

Thor smites a lot of stuff with his lighting, he literally wears a blindfold and gets drunk before starting to throw them.

Also the super-important dwarf council that gets to vote on the end of the world uses language such as calling wood "tree corpse", so it's at least as old as dwarf civilization itself. Tree Slayer orders aren't just last week's fad, and even kid Durkon was playing "destroy the tree" games with other dwarven kids.

Also, Loki commented on the mortals changing the way he can act when only Thor was there. Unless you believe Loki somehow convinced Thor of the whole belief thing, despite Thor being a god himself ?

Indeed, why would Loki the evil god of lies ever lie to his beloved brother? Why would Loki ever scheme against the head of his pantheon and cover his tracks with a nice story that blames mortals? That Loki is a clearly a trustworthy fellow and we should believe every lie he tells.

[Theshipening]

Indeed, why would Loki the evil god of lies ever lie to his beloved brother? Why would Loki ever scheme against the head of his pantheon and cover his tracks with a nice story that blames mortals? That Loki is a clearly a trustworthy fellow and we should believe every lie he tells.

I don’t doubt Loki is a very talented liar, but that would be like me, a human, convincing you, another human, that breathing is unnecessary and that you can stop whenever you want. How could he lie to Thor about something so fundamental to their very nature and to the way they act ?

[Ron Miel]

That would only be a relevant point if we had seen a non-dwarf thor-worshiper that doesn't hate trees.

Such as Haley?

Or, more seriously, these people don't appear to be dwarfs. They live in houses, not caves, and don't have a Scots burr.

[woweedd]

Such as Haley?

Or, more seriously, these people don't appear to be dwarfs. They live in houses, not caves, and don't have a Scots burr.

...You know, I get this is probably just Continuity Drift, but i'm now wondering where the hell it is that two gods are battling openly...Is that village in Ysgard or something?

[Schroeswald]

That's only thor's side of the story of why Odin is crazy.

And quite conveniently allow both Thor and Loki to call the shots around their pantheon while Odin's too crazy to order them around.

Just like Loki conveniently going "oh it's totally not my fault that I'm a compulsive liar. It's the fault of those pesky mortals. That we created and guided."

Meanwhile it's a fact that a)every Thor worshiper seen on the story hates trees and b)thor actually likes trees enough to plant them around his "paradise".

The facts seen directly contradict the stories.

I’ll just pretend that somehow every single worshipper of one of the most powerful gods is a dwarf, but even then not everyone who believes in Thor is a dwarf. Odin went crazy due to every single Northerner thinking he’s a dummy, but no Northerners we’ve seen would think that Thor smites trees (in fact every single Northerner who hears about that strange theology goes “dwarves will be dwarves” and talks about them being weird).

Thor smites a lot of stuff with his lighting, he literally wears a blindfold and gets drunk before starting to throw them.

The dwarves don’t know that, and every once and awhile Thor does you storms for a purpose, he helped out Durkon with the weather control and he seems to have tried to warn the OOTS about Greg with a bunch of storms.

Also the super-important dwarf council that gets to vote on the end of the world uses language such as calling wood "tree corpse", so it's at least as old as dwarf civilization itself. Tree Slayer orders aren't just last week's fad, and even kid Durkon was playing "destroy the tree" games with other dwarven kids.

The world is a few millennia old (more than two if we trust Sabine), plenty of time for this dwarven government to not be the most recent one, the US has a super important council and document establishing which isn’t even older than the country, like a thousand years ago makes sense for the founding of the council and we have another 1000+ years for that belief system to spread throughout dwarven land to be enshrined in this document.

Indeed, why would Loki the evil god of lies ever lie to his beloved brother? Why would Loki ever scheme against the head of his pantheon and cover his tracks with a nice story that blames mortals? That Loki is a clearly a trustworthy fellow and we should believe every lie he tells.

First off, what TheShippening said, that’s the first arguement against this. Second off, read those quotes of the Giant in comic 1177’s thread (they’re right at the top of the Index VI so you don’t have to look at all), notice how the Giant says several times things like “Loki is incapable of honesty”, “the gods change through memetic evolution”, and the like, so you can go believe that the gods are lying for some reason despite all evidence to the contrary, but don’t expect the story to find your claims legitimate.

[hroþila]

Whoa, look at all those unfounded assumptions and non-sequiturs in post #346.

[Jasdoif]

...You know, I get this is probably just Continuity Drift, but i'm now wondering where the hell it is that two gods are battling openly...Is that village in Ysgard or something?

Thor and Surtur have sparring matches with simulated settlements in non-permanent demiplanes; they like to keep their smiting in peak condition, to better provide the Strength and War domains to their followers as well as being able to deal with violent deific anomalies.

[woweedd]

Thor and Surtur have sparring matches with simulated settlements in non-permanent demiplanes; they like to keep their smiting in peak condition, to better provide the Strength and War domains to their followers as well as being able to deal with violent deific anomalies.

It would go a long way to explain Thor's blase attitude. And, yes, I know that's the joke, this being in the D&D jokes phase of the comic IE "Hmm, Clerics have to personally ask their god for spells every day. I bet that sometimes happens at inconvenient times for the god." but still, it's one of the many things about early Thor that doesn't fit with his late character. The decision-making-impaired oaf that is early Thor and the laid-back, wise, and shockingly-intelligent-when-the-situation-calls version we meet later don't seem to have much in common.

[Ruck]

Whoa, look at all those unfounded assumptions and non-sequiturs in post #346.

First time reading a deuterio post?

[HorizonWalker]

First time reading a deuterio post?

{scrubbed}

**Yes I made this whole post solely because of that pun.

[Fyraltari]

Yes I made this whole post solely because of that pun.

And we all love you for that.

[The MunchKING]

And we all love you for that.

Except the mods apparently.

[Peelee]

Except the mods apparently.

Not gonna lie, I laughed at this.

[The MunchKING]

Not gonna lie, I laughed at this.

Well then my purpose posting here has been achieved!

[HorizonWalker]

I may have gone a bit overboard, yes.