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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    FWIW, I'm totally on board with your prediction, or just the appropriateness, of Tarquin getting ganked by a woman of color minor character. Preferably off-screen, and mentioned only in passing.

    Seems more and more fitting as I keep thinking about it. Which probably means it won't happen that way.
    I think it should be "on-screen" for us, while barely meriting a footnote for his empire - thus robbing him of the inspirational (and, in his mind, "narratively satisfying") martyrdom at his son's hands that he sought for himself. Kinda like how Tsukiko was unceremoniously offed and very swiftly forgotten.

    I'll leave further speculation on Tarquin's defeat for another thread though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lkctgo View Post
    Can anyone estimate just how much GPs worth of Rubies V just got from Durkon's extended family? Given the seeming wealth and power of Durkon's "family", I wonder why isn't Sidgi's arm fixed (not wanting to live on her "family's" charity is one thing - but this seems like it won't even have been a problem to pay for it)?
    My educated guess is "enough to cast more Forcecages without the Order having to do another shopping detour/montage."

    Quote Originally Posted by Windscion View Post
    When I saw the title I figured we'd get an update on Team Evil. And we did, just not the evil team I was expecting.

    And yes, I am sure Sabine mixes business with pleasure, most conspicuously with Nale. Which just makes me wonder, giving that she is using vacation days, if she isn't trying some angle to get Nale back.

    As far as the idea of fiends having vacation days, um, devils would have a bureaucracy, but Sabine is a demon, right? So never mind.
    I believe the whole point of the IFCC is mixing diabolic bureaucracy with demonic impulse. So succubi with vacation days makes perfect sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightcanon View Post
    That was my initial thought! Something about the comment about taking a day off, plus it would fit with Sabine's MO at the start of Paladin Blues.
    D&D dwarves are Medium sized, like humans (I think she was in dwarf shape when she sent Roy off on the Starmetal Quest).
    Since, as you've correctly stated, they've shown her impersonate a dwarf in-comic before, it wouldn't have mattered whether that was RAW or not. (Though in this case, it is.)
    Last edited by Psyren; 2019-10-21 at 01:36 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightcanon View Post
    That was my initial thought! Something about the comment about taking a day off, plus it would fit with Sabine's MO at the start of Paladin Blues.
    D&D dwarves are Medium sized, like humans (I think she was in dwarf shape when she sent Roy off on the Starmetal Quest).
    Problem still being that Sabine has never shapeshifted into a skin color not her own, while "the dwarf" (who I'm gonna guess is Shirra), is not Sabine's skin color (and the only dwarf we've seen that seems to match is Kandro).
    Spoiler: Read this if I've posted a theory in the post above
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Which makes this idea even worse, because now we're saying he doesn't even have a guarantee of running into Elan again with this plan, much less being killed by him directly like he wants.
    So? Since when do people only do things when there’s a guarantee of suces?
    Look, I'm not saying it's impossible that the defeat + Snarl aren't sufficient for him to flush his characterization down the toilet like that, just that I'm... willing to lay odds that's not the case.
    How is chasing Elan ‘flushing his characterization down the toilet’ when that’s what he spent the end of Book Five doing? Hell, passing a chance to pursue would be out-of-character.



    I presumed she was whispering because she didn't want her bosses to know what she was saying. Seems logical to me.
    Isn’t that a lack of defiance, though? Since she didn’t want them to notice? ‘Where her loyalties lie’ has Qarr warning her that she should be loyal to the Directors, not Nale, even making a death threat on their behalf. It then ends with her telling Nale she’s with him ‘all the way’ as they leave the frame. That foreshadows that she will openly betray the Directors and pay for it. That’s going to be the conclusion of her narrative, it’s not gonna be resolved in a one-panel flashback where she gives one advice to get rid of two but vilains.
    Quote Originally Posted by drazen View Post
    Except now the Good gods know not to cash in any souls from the apocalypse, if it gets to that point.
    What? Why wouldn’t they?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    She sort of showed her defiance already by secretly tipping V off in how to beat Laurin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    How is that defiant?
    I rather agree with Fyraltari here. Helping Varsuvious is certainly not "betraying" the IFCC in the traditional sense of the word. All it did was help her (Sabine) get a measure of revenge on her lover's killer(s). I doubt the IFCC really cared who won the fight, as long as V survived.

    I've been trying to find a connection between the IFCC and the discussion V was having with Durkon's 'cousin'. It feels kind of abrupt to me. One the one hand, they are the reason V has a firm value on a person's time. And does Blackwing's comment apply to the followers of the IFCC (whose hands will be getting dirty) or to the IFCC themselves?

    Regarding Artifacts, someone mentioned the one Nale & Co were after in the Dungeon of Dorukon. Sadly (or happily, your opinions may vary), the Talisman of Dorukon is no longer available.

    On a completely different note: Thanks, Rich!
    Last edited by Lord Torath; 2019-10-21 at 01:51 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    What reason does Sabine have to betray the IFCC in the first place? They weren't responsible for what happened to Nale, and since Nale is gone the conflict of interests there is effectively over.

    I disagree with the notion that the story would be better for bring the Vector Legion back into things, but Sabine ever did want to screw with Tarquin and his buddies, I doubt they (the IFCC) would have a reason to care.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-10-21 at 02:05 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Well that was ominous. Good to get a teeny bit more info on the IFCC's plan, though, as we now know it involves destroying this world (Related: do they need to avoid Snarly death for the world or will any doomsday do?)

    Also, as non-dieific outsiders, they're slated to have their memories wiped between this world and the next. I wonder if they're aware of this and, if so, what their countermeasure is.

    Also, they're all red-skinned. That's another (probably useless) tidbit of info we didn't have before.

    Lastly, and most importantly, I have to remember that line of Vaarsuvius's in panel three. Way to good not to use.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    What reason does Sabine have to betray the IFCC in the first place? They weren't responsible for what happened to Nale, and since Nale is gone the conflict of interests there is effectively over.

    I disagree with the notion that the story would be better for bring the Vector Legion back into things, but Sabine ever did want to screw with Tarquin and his buddies, I doubt they (the IFCC) would have a reason to care.
    The IFCC needs new pawns to take over from the Linear Guild. The Vector Legion is ideally suited for that role being
    A) Evil,
    B) Already acquainted with Sabine and
    C) Already motivated to make a bid for the last Gate either for personal reasons (Tarquin and maybe fixing whatever happened to Laurin) and/or to secure their empires from threat of the Snarl (and not dying too).

    My thinking is that the Directors ordered Sabine to direct the VL to the North Pole on order to play whatever part the IFCC needs minions for (and they’ve just confirmed they still do need some) and Sabine will take advantage of that to cause Tarquin’s and probably the rest of the Legion’s too) death. Which will result in the Directors punishing her (can they even kill her?).

    The only thing that doesn’t jive with that is Ian and his gang, but I wouldn’t be too surprised if Elan’s plan turned out to be something that would decridibilise Tarquin without involving a direct confrontation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    in regards to the idea of the plot moving on fromt he 9 hells and the graphic quality of that place

    i'm reminded of that moment in the cartoon Chowder

    "Look what you did! Now the animators are going to have to draw all this fire!"
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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    !!!!!
    Yet again the Giant surprises me. With everyone expecting to see Team Evil again soon and talking about whether they'll have found the Gate (I personally think it's be too soon and too expected), we (or at least I) completely forgot about the characters-whose-organizational-acronym-I-forget-right-now,-dang-it.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lkctgo View Post
    Can anyone estimate just how much GPs worth of Rubies V just got from Durkon's extended family?
    Zero GP. Vaarsuvius didn't pay for them. Value is solely dependent on what you pay. If you pay 25,000GP for a diamond the size of a pinhead, that is then a 25,000GP diamond for the purposes of spell casting. Rich lampooned this at the beginning of the last book.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Rich lampooned this at the beginning of the last book.
    With rubies, 100gp no less.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Problem still being that Sabine has never shapeshifted into a skin color not her own, while "the dwarf" (who I'm gonna guess is Shirra), is not Sabine's skin color (and the only dwarf we've seen that seems to match is Kandro).
    I'm not heavily invested in this. Just had a bit of a moment when it was mentioned that Sabine was on her holidays. The crosscut/zoom to the IFCC works fine with V's comment re the value of one's time.
    Is there a limit to the degree to which succubi can alter skin tone? (I get that it would be a useful indicator that Sabine is around if there were a limit in-comic--though without going back to compare, I would have said that Kandro is darker than Sabine).
    Last edited by Nightcanon; 2019-10-21 at 04:28 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Nice to see V becoming aware of time; quite a shift from previous statements, such as claiming that she was going to get around to naming Blackwing "One of these centuries", and spending a hundred year before learning one first-level spell.
    Quite a shift for this centuries-old elf to suddenly become acutely aware for even one day of work lost.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    I rather agree with Fyraltari here. Helping Varsuvious is certainly not "betraying" the IFCC in the traditional sense of the word. All it did was help her (Sabine) get a measure of revenge on her lover's killer(s). I doubt the IFCC really cared who won the fight, as long as V survived.
    I don't think they even knew there was a fight until after the fact. Their TV was smashed, and right before they sent V back they assumed that all that was happening up top was just "more family angst." So they certainly had no dog in a fight they didn't know about.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    I'm going to take a shot and say the vessel is Julia Greenhilt. It ties her back into the story to resolve the Greenhilt family arc and she has an established history with Sabine (and is lightly implied to be bi, not that that's a barrier with Sabine's shapeshifting).

    All the other pieces are too vague to make real ties to anything, but if I'm giving it a shot, burgeoning wizards are a classic "vessel" in fantasy (see Harry Potter, Raymond Feist).
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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightcanon View Post
    I'm not heavily invested in this. Just had a bit of a moment when it was mentioned that Sabine was on her holidays. The crosscut/zoom to the IFCC works fine with V's comment re the value of one's time.
    Is there a limit to the degree to which succubi can alter skin tone (I get that it would be a useful indicator that Sabine is around if there were a limit in-comic--though without going back to compare, I would have said that Kandro is darker than Sabine).
    I was looking at some muted stuff making everything harder to distinguish (and thinking of Hoskin), but yeah, no one really has her skin tone (though Kandro and Hoskin are close enough I could see her skin being changed with the art change).
    Spoiler: Read this if I've posted a theory in the post above
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Problem still being that Sabine has never shapeshifted into a skin color not her own, while "the dwarf" (who I'm gonna guess is Shirra), is not Sabine's skin color (and the only dwarf we've seen that seems to match is Kandro).
    this was my thought too. she can change her shape into anything as long as it's the same skin color.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Itiative View Post
    Xykon being the main villain of the entire thing, and all.
    I'm sure someone already corrected this, but Xykon is basically Redcloak's shotgun and Redcloak is the Dark One's pawn and the real enemy is either the Snarl or the Dark One, or possibly both, depending on whether you are a God or not.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    I thought the Giant had confirmed that the story would climax with the final Roy vs Xykon battle but I can’t find that quote.

    Let’s christen the new thread: Summon Banana VI!
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-10-21 at 03:18 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    I rather agree with Fyraltari here. Helping Varsuvious is certainly not "betraying" the IFCC in the traditional sense of the word. All it did was help her (Sabine) get a measure of revenge on her lover's killer(s). I doubt the IFCC really cared who won the fight, as long as V survived.
    And yet, she felt the need to hide her advice-giving from them. I'm making an educated guess that she had a reason for doing that, even if it's one that isn't apparent to you and me. The Giant doesn't tend to draw things randomly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    So? Since when do people only do things when there’s a guarantee of suces?
    And what would the pitch sound like in your view? "Hey come abandon your empire to play second-banana-fiddle to my fiendish overlords for a plan they haven't revealed to me, and there's a chance that maybe this unknown plan that sort of involves your son's coworker might bring you within striking distance of him in some way at some point?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    How is chasing Elan ‘flushing his characterization down the toilet’ when that’s what he spent the end of Book Five doing? Hell, passing a chance to pursue would be out-of-character.
    Actually he was chasing Roy - to murder him, so that Elan would end up vowing revenge and leading whatever new adventuring party he gathered up to make his dad the center of his world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Isn’t that a lack of defiance, though? Since she didn’t want them to notice?
    The word you originally used was "betray," and doing something behind their back qualifies. If it was something they wanted her to do, there'd be no reason to hide it.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    RIP sparklies, you shall be missed.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And yet, she felt the need to hide her advice-giving from them. I'm making an educated guess that she had a reason for doing that, even if it's one that isn't apparent to you and me. The Giant doesn't tend to draw things randomly.
    Being careful about what people knows you are doing is a useful trait in hell (since everyone really is against you).
    She doesn’t know what the Directors want, so she didn’t know wether they’d approve of her interference or not. Being coy about it makes sense.



    And what would the pitch sound like in your view? "Hey come abandon your empire to play second-banana-fiddle to my fiendish overlords for a plan they haven't revealed to me, and there's a chance that maybe this unknown plan that sort of involves your son's coworker might bring you within striking distance of him in some way at some point?"
    ‘You know that son of yours you desperately want to battle to the death and his coworker and his girlfriend whose guts you hate all of whom I use to fight all the time? They’re going to this place which is also the one place where you can stop the monster tearing reality apart on your turf. What do you say we get there?’

    It’s not like she ever told the Linear Guild that they were being used either.



    Actually he was chasing Roy - to murder him, so that Elan would end up vowing revenge and leading whatever new adventuring party he gathered up to make his dad the center of his world.
    Which is why he didn’t target Roy at all on the airship and was solely focused on Elan (after he broke Haley’s arm)?
    He only cares about Roy because Elan cares more about Roy than about him. It’s Elan he’s got beef with.
    Even if that was correct, Elan and Roy are at the same place and going to the same place.

    The word you originally used was "betray," and doing something behind their back qualifies. If it was something they wanted her to do, there'd be no reason to hide it.
    Keeping a secret from someone is not a betrayal. She didn’t even know wether it would be a problem for them either. And you are completely ignoring how the strip foreshadows her death (or equivalent) due to her actions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Why are we discussing whether Sabine can change her skin color? Of course she can. It's a much less drastic change than becoming a dwarf, and the rules (which I know don't matter much anymore, but still) say "any Small or Medium humanoid". It would be a rather arbitrary limitation, honestly.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Tarquin being this vessel would be an intriguing possibility, but that theory is not without its own problems (for example, how would it affect and perhaps undermine the ending of BRitF? Would Tarquin volunteer? And in case it's not voluntary, could Sabine force him or fool him?). I don't think any of these problems are deal-breakers, but all in all I wouldn't bet on Tarquin being the vessel.

    At the same time, while introducing completely new characters is a possibility, I think this is more likely to involve known characters. Could be the Vector Legion, with or without Tarquin. Could be a reformed Linear Guild, without Nale but with Thog. Could be just Thog. Could even be Nale as some sort of weird ad hoc undead. I suppose by this point I'm listing possibilities with pretty terrible odds but hey.

    As for the goal of the archfiends, I suspect destroying the world is not their goal but rather a means to achieve that goal. Perhaps they want to do something during the demolition that will result in the Snarl getting out and killing the gods?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sniccups View Post
    Why are we discussing whether Sabine can change her skin color? Of course she can. It's a much less drastic change than becoming a dwarf, and the rules (which I know don't matter much anymore, but still) say "any Small or Medium humanoid". It would be a rather arbitrary limitation, honestly.
    She's never done it in the comic, even when changing her skin colour would have improved her disguise (by making it even harder for the Order to detect her). It's possible that she can do it, but it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that she can't.
    Last edited by hroþila; 2019-10-22 at 07:17 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Ohhhhhhhhhhh damn, I'm really excited/worried about what those three call the direct approach.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    wOw, really didn't expect to see them back in the game. Great strip!

    Man, the Order's going to have the worst of times at Kraagor's. Or anywhere, really.

  27. - Top - End - #117
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hroþila View Post
    She's never done it in the comic, even when changing her skin colour would have improved her disguise (by making it even harder for the Order to detect her). It's possible that she can do it, but it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that she can't.
    To second this point, the dwarven blacksmith was actually white but when she pretended to be him she had her own skin tone. I think there’s also a quote about part of the reasoning for her skin color being chosen was so she could fit in as part of several races and a wide variety of settings (I’ll second Fyraltari’s [hey it autocorrected to it when I misspelled! The plan from months ago is working] Summon Banana VI).
    Spoiler: Read this if I've posted a theory in the post above
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    "A sufficiently big wedge of cheese is indistinguishable from an aircraft."

  28. - Top - End - #118
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    As a quick little idea, maybe we're going to do a brief check-in on the various enemies of the Order before the book ends, much like we have in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html
    With us next flashing to maybe O-Chul and Lien, and then Team Evil(Xykon and company), before we cut to black.

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Jasdoif's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I thought the Giant had confirmed that the story would climax with the final Roy vs Xykon battle but I can’t find that quote.

    Let’s christen the new thread: Summon Banana VI!
    If he did, I didn't find it. The closest I came up with was a reference to a post in a moderator-ally removed thread implying that the current book was going to be rough for anyone who only cares about what happens to Xykon...which I don't think rises to the level of confirming "Roy-vs-Xykon will be the climax".



    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    To second this point, the dwarven blacksmith was actually white but when she pretended to be him she had her own skin tone. I think there’s also a quote about part of the reasoning for her skin color being chosen was so she could fit in as part of several races and a wide variety of settings (I’ll second Fyraltari’s [hey it autocorrected to it when I misspelled! The plan from months ago is working] Summon Banana VI).
    Sort of.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    In the case of Sabine, she is the tone that she is for two reasons: One, because it is a "mixed race" tone that could pass for any ethnic group in a pinch, as befits a shapeshifter, and two, because I wanted there to be at least one person of color on the Linear Guild. Yikyik, Thog, and Zz'dtri all needed to be the colors that they were due to their species, and Nale needed to be the same color as Elan. So, I could have made either Sabine or Hilgya dark skinned....I chose Sabine because Durkon is dark-skinned, and I wanted there to be some difference between Hilgya and Durkon to show that dwarves have races, too.
    Feytouched Banana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!

    The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

    I don't post often, but for this... :)

    My guess is the vessel is Thog (or whatever is left of him).
    The IFCC did mention him as one of their followers and Sabine could easily convince him of anything she wants, especially if she mentions it's revenge for Nale.

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