Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground C

[Zaq]

I might have an idea that is super thematic, but swiftblade isn’t really the centerpiece... I’ll keep tinkering.

[Efrate]

I think it is relevant to hear from the chair, do we need to fill all out level 3 or whatever slots with haste always or we lose qualification? I read the recommendation as all slots the previous level as something to do like climbing the highest mountain, it's an achievement that gets you in not a hard requirement that you must maintain.

Also why are there never enough feats?! So many stubs that need like 5 more feats to do what I want.

[Zaq]

Consarnit! [REDACTED] isn't [REDACTED], despite all appearances! That makes the joke significantly less interesting...

Anyone know a way to arbitrarily change [REDACTED]?

[Sian]

Consarnit! [REDACTED] isn't [REDACTED], despite all appearances! That makes the joke significantly less interesting...

Anyone know a way to arbitrarily change [REDACTED]?

Pff, that’s easy... just take [redacted] levels of [redacted] and [redact] [redacted]

[Heliomance]

Viscount will make an excellent chair.

But first, we've got to send Helio out in style. Nothing's quite clicking the way I want it to yet, but I'm hopeful.

EDIT: Swiftblade is post-3.5 transition, but Sudden Casting is essentially referencing 3.0 rules for Quicken Spell. Is it a free action that's limited to 1/round or does it eat your swift action?

Sudden Casting directly references Quicken Spell, and thus the most recent version of the Quicken Spell rules apply. I believe that means it costs a Swift Action.

It strikes me from discussions and disagreements we have had at our table, that there exists some ambiguity and house-ruling around how Time Stop is supposed to work, that might be worth ruling on for the purposes of this contest, so that we are all on the same page about how powerful this ability is.

This becomes even more ambiguous because the Innervated Speed (Ex) ability isn't literally a time stop, but an Ex ability that functions similarly "as time stop".

e.g. you are not supposed to be able to cast spells that affect others:


Some groups play this as spells that break this rule just fail (you cannot target others) and have no effect. Some groups play this as causing the time stop to end immediately, a penalty for trying to do something improper (if you target others, this violates the Time stop's limitations and it ends). The latter always seemed an incorrect interpretation to me, but perhaps its worth clarifying?

It is impossible to cast targeted spells on others during Time Stop (or Innervated Speed), the targeting just fails and the spell cannot be cast. It is possible to cast area of effect spells, however all targets are completely invulnerable for the duration of the Time Stop, so effects that end before the Time Stop will do nothing.

Some groups rule that casting silence on a small pebble and slipping it into the pocket of the enemy mage is a legal move. But some would argue that you are affecting an item that is (i.e. becomes) in another creature's possession.

That is fine, so long as you can access the pocket. It is not possible to, eg, open a pocket flap or undo a buckle, however you can put things in containers - even those in the possession of others - so long as you can do so without having to move anything.

A swift blade's Innervated Speed (Ex) is an EX effect of Haste, cast in a higher-level slot, not a spell or supernatural ability. And thanks to Fortified Hustle, your own haste spell cannot be dispelled by any means. So anti-magic fields (which do not affect Ex abilities) have no effect on this ability. So you can still have Innervated Speed active, giving you an effective time stop, and then move into and take your extra rounds inside an AMF, right?

But can you cast the haste spell in the AMF? Sudden Casting (Ex) says you can caste haste as a free action. Is the whole act of casting Haste now an Ex ability? Or is the ability to cast it still casting a spell, but the ability to do it as a free action is an Ex ability?

Innervated Speed references Time Stop, and Time Stop explicitly calls out that you can't enter an AMF in the spell description, so that prohibition remains despite the effect being (Ex). You also cannot cast Haste inside an AMF, it is still cast as a spell, but Fortified Hustle makes it (Ex) once it's in effect. The ability to cast Haste as a free action is (Ex), the ability to cast it at all is not - the only real effect of this is that you can still use your class features if you use Invoke Magic to cast Haste inside an anti/dead magic zone.

What you can do, however, is use Innervated Speed and then cast AMF without dispelling your own Time Stop, as Fortified Hustle makes it (Ex) once cast. You can't enter an AMF, but there's nothing to forbid casting one on yourself - it's just that if you leave the area of it, you can't get back in again.

I think it is relevant to hear from the chair, do we need to fill all out level 3 or whatever slots with haste always or we lose qualification? I read the recommendation as all slots the previous level as something to do like climbing the highest mountain, it's an achievement that gets you in not a hard requirement that you must maintain.

It's an entry requirement - once you're in, you're allowed to use your spell slots for other things again.

[Gauntlet]

Regarding Innervated Speed:

If you prepared Haste (a 3rd level spell) in a 6th level slot and used it for Innervated Speed, then would the use of an effect that restores a level 3 spell restore Haste to its previous 6th level slot, or just put in a new level 3 slot?
Essentially, does regaining Haste via a Pearl of Power III grant a reuse of Innervated Speed? Going by the Pearl of Power wording, a Pearl of Power VI wouldn't restore it because the spell level is still third, no matter what slot it was prepared in.

[RaiKirah]

I've got a really fun idea, but I don't think it's actually any good without Dragon Mag material :/

My other plan also isn't really about Swiftblade...

Back to the drawing board!

[Venger]

Regarding Innervated Speed:

If you prepared Haste (a 3rd level spell) in a 6th level slot and used it for Innervated Speed, then would the use of an effect that restores a level 3 spell restore Haste to its previous 6th level slot, or just put in a new level 3 slot?
Essentially, does regaining Haste via a Pearl of Power III grant a reuse of Innervated Speed? Going by the Pearl of Power wording, a Pearl of Power VI wouldn't restore it because the spell level is still third, no matter what slot it was prepared in.

pearl of power only checks the slot. you're casting it out of a 6, so you'd need a pearl of power 6.

[Gauntlet]

pearl of power only checks the slot. you're casting it out of a 6, so you'd need a pearl of power 6.

You sure?

Pearl of Power
Once per day on command, a pearl of power enables the possessor to recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast. The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast. The spell must be of a particular level, depending on the pearl. Different pearls exist for recalling one spell per day of each level from 1st through 9th and for the recall of two spells per day (each of a different level, 6th or lower).

I guess the other interpretation would let you use a Pearl II to recall a level 2 spell with a pile of metamagic on it, so I guess not.

[Venger]

You sure?

Pearl of Power
Once per day on command, a pearl of power enables the possessor to recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast. The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast. The spell must be of a particular level, depending on the pearl. Different pearls exist for recalling one spell per day of each level from 1st through 9th and for the recall of two spells per day (each of a different level, 6th or lower).

I guess the other interpretation would let you use a Pearl II to recall a level 2 spell with a pile of metamagic on it, so I guess not.

Right, the level refers to the slot you're casting it out of. A level 2 spell with metamagic on it would need a higher lvl pearl of power. Yeah, that's the reason.

[Hiro Quester]

A question about the interactions between Perpetual Options and Innervated Speed.

If a Swiftblade 10 casts Innervated Speed, subsuming Haste that she prepared in a 7th level slot, let's say, it grants her two full rounds of actions, in the equivalent of a time stop.

How many actions does she get each round of the Time Stop?

Perpetual Options grants her extra actions whenever she is under the effect of a Haste spell she has cast herself. For instance, an extra Standard Action each round. So her turn could consist of a swift action, two standard actions, and a move action, for example.

Does Perpetual Options mean that she gets an extra standard action during the extra Innervated Speed rounds, so she could effectively cast a swift action spell, and two standard action spells each round of the Time Stop?

If so, does it apply automatically, because Innervated Speed is itself a Haste spell she has cast herself? Or would she need also be under the effect of a normal Haste spell she has cast herself (she would almost definitely cast one anyway, to have it active after the Time Stop)?

Or (the less OP interpretation) is Innervated Speed already a maximal speed increase, such that a Haste spell's Perpetual Options can't increase her speed any further, and she can't gain any extra actions from a Haste Spell while Innervated Speed is in effect?

The rules are unclear about how these interact. IMHO, it seems that RAW she should get the extra standard action. But I could see a reasonable DM, who is trying to keep the action economy only seriously broken, rather than completely smashed to encounter-ending smithereens, ruling that Innervated Speed is already maximally fast, and so that she only gets a regular round (swift, standard, and move action; or swift and full round action) each round of the Time Stop.

We should probably have a ruling to clarify how this works for the purposes of this competition.

[Piggy Knowles]

Not the chair, but I definitely don't think it will automatically apply:

Any time you prepare or spontaneously cast haste in a 6th level spell slot, you can subsume the spell at the moment of casting instead, increasing your speed so greatly that other creatures seem frozen in time, as the time stop spell, but for one round.

Seems pretty clear to me, instead of casting haste you subsume the spell for innervated speed and get those effects instead. Since you aren't under the effects of haste (unless you cast it again and/or before), perpetual options doesn't apply.

Now, if you have an active haste already before using innervated speed, then in that case I don't see any reason why perpetual options wouldn't apply during your stopped time rounds.

[Zaq]

Welp, by the time the combo is online, I’ve run out of space for the SI. Next idea...

I may have an idea that pushes some boundaries. But I’m not sure if it actually does what I’m arguing it does. It’s a Plan B. Maybe a Plan C.

I’ve already thrown out another idea that’s a riff on the same joke because swiftblade ended up not mattering to it.

So many dead ends in this brainstorming process! Like, dead ends are normal and natural here, but I feel like I usually don’t go through quite so many. But I am determined.

[Hiro Quester]

So many dead ends in this brainstorming process! Like, dead ends are normal and natural here, but I feel like I usually don’t go through quite so many. But I am determined.

I’m having similar issues. There are so many good uses of the SI, but many that have it as an intensifier of another star ingredient. Or that need just a few more levels beyond 20 to get all the class abilities together.

Still I have a few ideas. But at least one depends on something working a particular way, but which it would also be reasonable to interpret as not working that way. That might also be my plan B.

[Zaq]

I think I miiiight have something if I can find a way to crowbar in several more feats. Parts of it are freaking stupid, though.

The real challenge is crowbarring in several more hours in which to build. Stupid schedule. There may be some late nights in my future.

[The Viscount]

I've lost count of how many builds I've completed in the late hours because that's when I could find several uninterrupted hours to hammer out the playtips and story.

[Efrate]

I might be able to actually spend a few hours with my collection of stubs this weekend. Wish I had about 4 more levels and feats on each of them. SI is a great force multiplier for so many things, problem is those things tend to outshine it, unless I go to level 24 or 25 =/.

I just need like 4 or 6 flaws and I think I can fit feats in. >.>

[Hiro Quester]

SI is a great force multiplier for so many things, problem is those things tend to outshine it, unless I go to level 24 or 25 =/.

I think we are all feeling that. It's hard to satisfy three constraints: assemble an awesome build, give it original flavour, and also make good use of all the SI's levels.

To satisfy the first two, I'm having to use less of the SI. There are natural "break points" in Swiftblade, where losing a caster level hurts enough that its' worth considering not including more levels of Swiftblade. But what's after that lost caster level is awesome enough that it hurts to not include it, too.

Or to make the best use of the full 9 or 10 levels of the SI (without simply reproducing an unoriginal standard handbook build), you have to sacrifice the power and flavor that makes a build worth building and sharing. Or take it to epic levels; to level 21 at the very least.

Would it be too inelegant to highlight what could be possible if we took the build into a few epic levels?

[jdizzlean]

i'm currently buried in the details of my one solid idea, and for the moment at least, feats aren't even a problem this go around...


as to epic levels, every build could benefit from a few epic levels for sure, my thought is that if you want to include that, go for it, but it should be a seperate optional misc tab since IC is based off a 20 lvl build.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

EDIT: My idea is looking more rules-sketchy by the minute. In particular, the part that brings Swiftblade into it looks outright illegal. I think I'll sit on the idea for a later competition rather than try to crowbar it into this one.

[Zaq]

I have officially lost track of which of my builds is the serious one and which is the jokey one. Is that a good sign or a bad sign?

[The Viscount]

Definitely a good sign.

[KellKheraptis]

Specific skill question: is REDACTED available as a skill for the purposes of the Iron Chef Challenges?

[The Viscount]

The answer to your question is yes.
I'd recommend you edit your post to avoid speculation/recognition.

[KellKheraptis]

The answer to your question is yes.
I'd recommend you edit your post to avoid speculation/recognition.

Thanks, and reference removed!

[Zaq]

Build alpha: Table set but needs to be formatted. Tactics writeup complete; fluff writeup in the works.

Build bravo: Feats and level order almost all set; tinkering with skills. Fluff written in my head but not actually put on the page yet; same with tactics.

I... think the serious one and the jokey one have either switched places or merged into a terrifying unity. I'm only partially the one in control now. Which is the best feeling when Iron Cheffing. That's what this is all about. Set up that problem and let the optimization wave carry you where it will; who needs to predict the endpoint from the start?

'Course, I've got midterms this week, but dammit, I've come too far to fail now.

[remetagross]

Brace yourself buddy, I want to get to read these damn entries

[weckar]

Is a haste spell cast from a magic item (wand or scroll) eligible for the enhancements this class provides?

[Hiro Quester]

Is a haste spell cast from a magic item (wand or scroll) eligible for the enhancements this class provides?

I have been wondering the same. If I have boots of speed, or a wand of haste, do they grant all the haste bonuses granted by "a haste spell that you cast yourself".

My default assumption is that they don't, much though I want them to. The class abilities listed all seem to derive from a synergy you learn to develop between your experience of being hasted and your knowledge of the spell. It's the particular way your distinctive way of casting haste, interacts with your particular physiology and knowledge.

The boots enable you to act "as though affected by a haste spell". That's different from a haste spell you cast yourself.

Though if there are classes that grants the Su ability to haste yourself, that innate class ability should probably count IMHO.

I... think the serious one and the jokey one have either switched places or merged into a terrifying unity. I'm only partially the one in control now. Which is the best feeling when Iron Cheffing. That's what this is all about. Set up that problem and let the optimization wave carry you where it will; who needs to predict the endpoint from the start?

'Course, I've got midterms this week, but dammit, I've come too far to fail now.

Haha. I'm a professor who is supposed to be grading midterms, and I'm caught in that same wave of ideas.

My two potential builds are optimization waves that keep crashing together and switching aspects with one another. It's getting hard to keep them separate, but also hard to completely fuse them together. My alpha build might be the only one I have time to complete.

[Thurbane]

I think I'm happy to sit this one out and watch the entries. The build I was working on doesn't focus on Swiftblade, but more on the other stuff I was going to use...