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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    And this is a metric we care about why? We don't tier classes based on how good they are at fulfilling their "intended concept", we tier them based on how good they actually are. Basically every Archmage is going to be better than basically every Champion of Gwynharwyf. Any rating system that rates the latter higher than the former is misleading at best.
    The thread is not a "PrC power evauation thread", just "PrC evaluation thread".

    Champion of Gwynharwyf has two major flaws: entry is a bit later than I like and nobody is ever going to spell it correctly without googling.

    Aside from these two, I'd say it is pretty well written, providing a good option for people looking to play this concept. I'd evaluate it at about 16-18/20.

    Try to change my mind if you're so inclined, but I must tell you "it lacks 9th level spells" is a poor argument.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    I feel like your rating system is fundamentally broken if it's giving this a 16/20, but Archmage an 11/20.
    Reread the archmage explanation for why it was rated that, I guess? Also, it isn't a power evaluation, as noted. If it were, every full casting PrC would just get 20/20 and every martial 0/20 because NO SPELLCASTING!!!.

    The rating is based on the metrics I put forth in the first post after getting some feedback in a prior thread. It is more about how does this PrC function for its role, with it's abilities, compared to what else it could have taken (without considering all the other PrCs, usually, as that comparison would take forever. Mostly just base class comparisons and I try to factor in the printed classes chronologically to place it in time, but not always).

    As such, Archmage isn't actually all that great because so much of what it has to offer can be replicated. Therefore, other classes can do what an archmage can do, and more. This really dumbs it down, so I would suggest rereading the archmage section again if you want to know how it came to that.

    Also, feel free to vote for Archmage or any other PrC already evaluated. I will still factor in new votes. This is supposed to be an ongoing discussion.
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    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
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    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  3. - Top - End - #183

    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by noce View Post
    Try to change my mind if you're so inclined, but I must tell you "it lacks 9th level spells" is a poor argument.
    Why? That's the argument we accept when rating classes. Why ought the way we assess PrCs be any different? It seems to me that the burden of proof is on you to explain why we should look for a completely different set of properties here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    Reread the archmage explanation for why it was rated that, I guess? Also, it isn't a power evaluation, as noted. If it were, every full casting PrC would just get 20/20 and every martial 0/20 because NO SPELLCASTING!!!.
    That's a strawman. The tiers aren't just "all casters are 1, all martials are 6". Acknowledging that "are things actually good" is a more important question than "does this thing posses the fuzzy moral qualities I consider to be important" doesn't mean your rating system collapses to "good" and "bad".

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Celestial Mystic's "Special" column is its selling point. I'm unsure what number to give this PrC, but losing casting is a very big turn-off for a primary caster!
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    Why? That's the argument we accept when rating classes. Why ought the way we assess PrCs be any different? It seems to me that the burden of proof is on you to explain why we should look for a completely different set of properties here.
    Because it is much more useful? You may not belief it but people playing all sorts of classes and character concepts. Having a metric that says "this really/not really helps your concept" is actually helpful.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Because it is much more useful? You may not belief it but people playing all sorts of classes and character concepts. Having a metric that says "this really/not really helps your concept" is actually helpful.
    This.
    The purpose of the thread is to evaluate PrCs, not place them all on a scale of worst PrC to best PrC with every PrC contrasted against every other PrC.
    Again, this is outlined in the first post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    DMG 3.5e page 41:
    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    Why? That's the argument we accept when rating classes. Why ought the way we assess PrCs be any different? It seems to me that the burden of proof is on you to explain why we should look for a completely different set of properties here.



    That's a strawman. The tiers aren't just "all casters are 1, all martials are 6". Acknowledging that "are things actually good" is a more important question than "does this thing posses the fuzzy moral qualities I consider to be important" doesn't mean your rating system collapses to "good" and "bad".
    I think you are missing the purpose of this exercise we aren't looking at each prc compared to all other prcs printed, honestly that wouldn't even be a useful metric. the comparison of entry class and prc as well as other similar prcs you could take and the cost of entering. Our goal is if you are a wizard is taking archmage worth it compared to just staying wizard? Is it good compared to other options I have as a wizard? Not is an archmage better than a Champion of Gwynharwyf, that is a worthless metric that I don't care about if I am a barbarian looking for a prc...

  8. - Top - End - #188

    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Because it is much more useful? You may not belief it but people playing all sorts of classes and character concepts. Having a metric that says "this really/not really helps your concept" is actually helpful.
    And yet the most popular ranking of classes is by power. To the point that it was actually redone because people thought it didn't reflect power enough. People's revealed preferences are for answers to the question "is this good", not the question "does this match up to whatever I think the concept is".

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantasyPen View Post
    As we discussed on the podcast, I still feel that there's SOMETHING that can be made with the Dwarf Defender, possibly by mixing the stone dragon PrC into it. Also as bad as this class is for PCs, you neglected to mention how AMAZING it is for an NPC, particularly an elite guard shielding a specific area or with a chokepoint to hold.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    I am focusing on PC usage, but even as an NPC... The players can just walk around. It would have to be a 5ft hall with no magical means to bypass the defender. Also, the PCs could notice the DD isn't moving and just wait him out. Then he will lose the bonuses and have no backup abilities. There could be a specific situation where it is good, but it would be a niche application, for sure.
    Was reading back through the archive for kicks, and this discussion of the Dwarven Defender reminded me of this comic...
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Even when I proposed evaluating PrCs like base classes, that was only for classes like Ur-Priest which don't advance other classes. With base classes, you can compare Wizard to Fighter and say that one is more powerful. With something like Archmage, if you wanted to evaluate it in terms of raw power you would need to consider every possible base class entry, and it would always end up being slightly more powerful than just taking that class straight. Wizard gets a bit more powerful with Archmage. Warmage gets more or less the same amount of power from Archamge. So either you can evaluate how powerful Archmage is when advancing literally every casting class, or you can evaluate it based on how much power it adds to the character overall.
    Last edited by Kalkra; 2020-08-08 at 11:25 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    And yet the most popular ranking of classes is by power. To the point that it was actually redone because people thought it didn't reflect power enough. People's revealed preferences are for answers to the question "is this good", not the question "does this match up to whatever I think the concept is".
    I still think you are going in the complete wrong direction. PRCs aren't base classes, in order to take a PRC you have to had already taken a base class to be able to apply and you can only take certain base classes to reasonably enter a PRC. So if I am a barbarian I really don't care about wizard PRCs and comparing my possible PRC choices with wizard PRCs is frankly a waste of time. Similarly if I am a wizard I don't care about PRCs that are only for druids or bards, or barbarians or any other base class, so again the comparison point a moot. As such saying Champion of Gwynharwyf is a great PRC for a barbarian shouldn't have any effect on how good or bad archmage is for a wizard/sorcerer/warmage and so on and I see no valid reason why the comparison should even be made. The fact is Archmage is not a very good PRC compared to other wizard/sorcerer/warmage PRCs but Champion of Gwynharwyf is a very good PRC for barbarians.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    Was reading back through the archive for kicks, and this discussion of the Dwarven Defender reminded me of this comic...
    Nice. That about sums up defensive stance's utility.
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    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    DMG 3.5e page 41:
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    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    speaking of Dwarven Defender...

    Defender of Sealtiel
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    This is who they defend.

    1)
    The DoS uses the word “defend” and its variants a bit too much in the fluff text. I have a strong feeling this will be a failed “tank” class. Let’s see… Full BAB, d12 HD, good FORT and WILL, and 2 skill ranks per level.

    At first level, DoS gains Defensive Stance. Uh oh, here we go- “stalwart bastion of defense.” That is WotC code for “sounds good in theory but just didn’t work out in practice.” Really, go find that phrase in other PrCs. Anyway, standard Dwarven Defender nonsense here – boost stats but don’t move! Let’s follow that up with a nice description of what happens when your CON score goes up, yea…sigh

    At least the DoS can also cast Shield of Faith an impressive THREE times per day.

    Things improve at second level (seriously though) with a permanent Magic Circle Against Evil effect. The DoS also gains the ability to cast Shield Other but only ONCE per day. Ah well

    All the odd levels are effectively dead levels from here on out, only increasing the number of times per day you can spontaneously break both your legs (defensive stance). It’s a bit like the hulk, except instead of ripping your shirt off, you just smash your knee caps.

    At level four, another one per day spell-like: Blood of the Martyr.

    Six: Protective Aura once per day (three per day at 10th level).

    Eight: Glory of the Martyr.

    This is fairly craptacular. It amounts to either you being killed faster (by giving away your HPs) or being ignored by the enemy (“Where are you going? Come back and fight me! Please, just 5ft closer?”). At least it has good WILL saves? 4 / 14 and that feels generous…

    2)
    I can’t see this winning any opportunity cost battles. It has a d12 HD and good FORT and WILL saves, yes. However, that is about it. This PrC falls into the standard tank trap that just doesn’t work well in third edition. There are plenty of other defensive style that function significantly better. Crusader is the go-to example of how to “tank” correctly, but even a fighter focused on tripping or using other maneuvers is better off than this DoS. 0 / 4

    3)
    What does it cost to enter this pile of excremement class? Higher BAB than is justifiable, LISTEN ranks, albeit low ranks, and not one, not two, but THREE feats including some of everyone’s favorites Diehard and Endurance! Whoooooo (the sarcasm just won’t end). Taking a step back from this class and considering the prereqs as nothing more than prereqs, I say they fall into the medium category. As such: 1 / 2

    Defender of Sealtiel: 5 / 20
    Last edited by Mike Miller; 2020-08-10 at 11:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
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    DMG 3.5e page 41:
    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Hum I feel like this should be on par with Dwarven Defender but Dwarven Defender currently has 7.5/20, maybe we should drop the DD a few points?

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Yeah, an effective caster level of 10 for these effects by character level 17 (assuming earliest entry) is just boring and weak.

    I would say getting any amount of DR, Uncanny Dodge, and the ability to move (albeit a 5-foot step) in the stance eventually would mean that the Dwarven Defender is at least marginally better than this PrC. I think DoS deserves a lower score than DD.

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Good Fort and Will progression in a beatstick isn't that common, but on the other hand most of the reason for the good Will save is rendered a bit pointless by a permanent spell that prevents mental control of the subject. Agreed, 5/20.

  17. - Top - End - #197
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    I've always had a little fondness for the Defensive Stance thing, but the only time I ever found a good use for it was when I was DMing: I'd arranged for an encounter where the defender plugged the choke point while the caster and archers behind him did their buffing and shooting. They finally knocked him over with a homebrew ground-shaking ability, but he worked as a good spoiler for a couple rounds, and he did pretty much exactly what I'd hoped for the encounter.

    But, as a PC, it's hard to do much with it. Defensive Stance can synergize well with Knight's Challenge (Test of Mettle, in particular), but the restrictions are too stringent and finicky. I'd be happy if it let you move at half speed, or maybe even if it only gave you a 5-foot step each round (especially if you could 5-foot-step as an immediate action); but like this, it's just too restrictive.

    I haven't really thought through the numbers with your formula, but 5/20 sounds about right.

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Emissary of Barachiel is a strange one.

    d6 hit die, good will saves, medium BaB, and it's own limited divine spell progression looks like a weird cleric with a unique buffing ability in Calling. The prereqs look easy at first, but the Words of Creation feat requires 15 Int, 15 Cha and +5 "base will save", which means you need to be in one or more classes with a good Will Save progression to take this by level 6/7 and will need to invest points in a stat you otherwise won't need.

    The only build that moderately makes sense to me is Bard/Emissary of Barachiel/Foulchan Lyrist since emissary lets you cast divine spells off charisma and Word of Creation benefits your bardic music. And even then, it's probably a 1 level dip to get a divine progression for Lyrist... No idea how to evaluate since I can't think of a build that wants more than 1 level of this class.
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  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Why would you need to be a bard? Any class can take Words of Creation, and it's not like you won't have a use for them.

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Why would you need to be a bard? Any class can take Words of Creation, and it's not like you won't have a use for them.
    No need, of course, any spellcaster can benefit from them (including itself of course) - I was just trying to conceive of a class progression where it makes sense to even take levels in Emissary.

    2 of the 4 applications of Word of Creationmake spells better, 1 makes bardic music stronger, and 1 lets you debuff a particular enemy if you study it hard enough. Also, Emissary uses Diplomacy for setting the DC on it's unique inspiration/enthrall ability so theres some synergy with bards there too, and the logical end point to that multiclass is Foulchan Lyrist, assuming you can get the evasion/druidic from somewhere else.

    Marshals have a good will save progression, so I gues you could go Marshall 6 into Emissary for a more leader-y paladin type with much worse BaB and HD. You hardly gain any benefit from Words of Creation on the Emissary's spell list alone though, in this build you're really in it for utility spells and the Calling ability.
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  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Emissary of Barachiel

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    1)
    This is a lawful good orator spreading the word of Barachiel with the celestial Words of Creation. It has a d6 HD, 4 skill points per level, 3 / 4 BAB, good WILL save, and bard casting with its own list up to fourth level. The skills are decent and the spell list has a limited selection, as expected, but enough useful ones for your small number of spells known. There are only three abilities spread out across the first five levels of this ten level PrC. With that description, it doesn’t sound great. However, all three abilities take one use of the first ability and you have as many uses per day as your class level.

    At level one, you gain Calling. This is an enchantment, mind-affecting effect with a range of 30 ft. Calling influences humanoids in a variety of ways depending on alignment. Good humanoids are boosted, neutral enthralled and penalized, and evil stunned and also penalized. It seems like a pretty useful ability and fortunately your uses per day goes up as you level so you should be able to use it whenever you want to. A downside is you take nonlethal damage from all the uses of Calling (including those coming up next) due to the Words of Creation (a BoED thing).

    At level three, you gain Conversion. This one feels a bit meh for a PC. You can slowly convert a nongood humanoid to good. I don’t think the crunch details are super important here, even if you do have good use of it. Unless your group is making heavy use of the BoED vow system, this is likely more of an NPC usage ability or fairly rare use.

    At level five, you gain Sustenance. This has a few uses, each of which expends one calling use. You can duplicate atonement (which helps you convert nongoods to good), reverse magical alignment changes, and dispel charm or compulsion effects cast by an evil creature upon a good target (man that is specific). I do want to point out some odd or poorly worded dispel checks here. You roll 1d20 + character level against a DC of 11 + the evil caster’s level. It isn’t the caster level. It is the caster’s LEVEL.

    As a class specifically designed to convert nongood humanoids to good, it succeeds well. I don’t know if there are classes like this one (maybe another PrC in this book?), so it fills its own niche well. I can’t help but think you’d be better off just roleplaying the conversion aspect instead of forcing some mechanics into it. There are probably very few people interested in building a character solely around conversion. The uniqueness of this PrC makes it hard to rate, in my mind. The massive amount of dead levels is a big strike against it, though. I could easily see it starting at 7 / 14 before I consider what it does just on the dead levels. You’ll mostly be using your spells and calling ability in combat and roleplaying a character that anyone without this PrC could roleplay outside of combat. I don’t see this going over 3 / 14 even with quality spells known.

    2)
    As I’ve alluded to already, roleplaying can replace a fair chunk of what this class does. The conversion ability feels entirely unnecessary and anyone could work with their DM through roleplaying to convert opponents. Even questing to convert them would be more rewarding and interesting than just shouting words of creation in their face and hoping they fail a save each day for a week or else try again (or cast atonement). Then you’ve got the half casting. If you are into this PrC for the spells, you are doing it wrong. There are better half casters out there and I wouldn’t call this class a gish. How about sustenance? It is unique, but at the same time, it is very specific. Arguably, the most useful feature is dispelling charms and compulsions, but that is only when evil creatures affect good targets. I’d say you will lose any comparison if you could have just gone with dispel magic. Finally, the calling ability. This is one useful ability; however, it only affects humanoids. If you are in a humanoid heavy campaign, it will be far more useful than if you are venturing into the abyss or some such. The fact that it is limited by class level per day and mind-affecting really hamper it though. I just don’t see this one being better than roleplaying the conversion bit and finding a class that can be effective elsewhere. 0 / 4

    3)
    The prereqs aren’t too bad. You need diplomacy and knowledge (the planes) with diplo being higher and both cleared at level 5, potentially. Alignment, no surprise there in BoED. Two feats being Servant of the Heavens and Words of Creation, the latter of which has potentially problematic requirements including INT and CHA 15 as well as base WILL +5. These are probably medium, but depending on your entry class I could see it being considered major just to fulfill the Words of Creation prereqs. 1 / 2

    Emissary of Barachiel: 4 / 20
    Last edited by Mike Miller; 2020-08-16 at 01:05 AM.
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    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Exalted Arcanist

    5 level PrC for sorcerers. 4/5 casting progression, and in exchange for the lost spell level, you get a slightly expanded spell list (including all sanctified spells at level 5), 2 bonus spells known, bonus exalted feats and the ability to use the two metamagic feats required for the class without changing cast time.

    I don't know enough about the sanctified spells to say if it's worth giving up a level of spell progression, especially since you have to be a spontaneous caster and will already be 1 level behind. Both of the metamagic feats required for the class seem pretty mediocre as well. If it was 5/5 progression it'd be fantastic since it gives you so many free things, even if most of them aren't amazing.

    probably 7/14 for features, since expanded spell list and free feats are good even if the options are limited.
    opportunity cost 2/4 the abilities are super flavorful and plentiful, but I don't think they're good enough to make up for a level of lost casting progression (as well as needing to take different metamagic than you'd normally want) . if you want to enter the class on time, you won't get 4th level spells until 9th level.
    prereqs 2/2 cross class knowledge religion (4) and the two feats are easy, and the rest of the prereqs are freebies.

    11/20 seems alright. if you want to be a sorcerer that throws Holy Smite instead of Fireball and Lesser Planar Ally instead of Summon Monster IV than this is one way to build that character (though I don't know why you're not playing a favored soul if thats the case)

    Do y'all think i'm over or underestimating the value of the lost caster level?
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  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    The Emissary of Barachiel is not a popular one.
    Last edited by Mike Miller; 2020-08-15 at 08:27 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #204
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    I think we jumped the gun on the discussion of the Emissary. I know most of the thoughts on it are up the page.

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Exalted Arcanist is so-so for sorcerers. They simply cannot tolerate lost caster levels; designing and balancing sorcerer PrCs in 3.5 has always been an exercise in frustration.

    It's better for Sublime Chords and Warmages, as the former isn't 100% married to its spell progression and the latter auto-knows its whole spell list.
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Yeah, exalted arcanist is great for warmages since they don't just get all the exalted spells, they also get all the other spells that are added to their class spell list, but all exalted spells is good for a sorcerer too. Exalted spells are pretty good in general (especially if you also have access to the extra ones in CoV)—there's a solid half-dozen or so that are actively amazing and another half-dozen that are just really strong.

  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Exalted Arcanist

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    This class focuses on a non-draconic origin spontaneous arcane caster. Instead, the origin of magic power lie within a celestial background. The EA has a d4 HD, 4 skill points per level with a decent skill list, half BAB, good WILL save, and 4/5 casting progression. It also calls out bards and sorcerers taking it, but more on that later.

    1)

    At first level, you do not progress casting. Instead, you gain access to exalted spells from a special list up to 3rd level, which in this case is six new spells. You also get to learn two new spells.

    At second level, the exalted list goes up to 5th level. You can also use your Consecrate Spell feat without increasing casting time.

    At third level you gain a bonus exalted feat and your exalted spell list goes up to 7th.

    At fourth level your exalted spell list goes up to 9th and you can use your Purify Spell feat without increasing casting time.

    At fifth level you gain another bonus exalted feat and can use sanctified spells as if they were on your known spell list. This might be the best part, because it adds a bunch of spells known to your spontaneous casting.

    Some of the exalted spells are good. I don’t think highly of the standard casting time with the two lousy metamagic feats, but it is something. Generally speaking, exalted feats aren’t fantastic, but bonus feats are just that – bonuses! Overall, I think it is pretty good at being a smitey spontaneous caster. Sure, you lose a caster level, but you gain extra spells known (eventually). Unfortunately, if you go in as suggested with a bard, you are losing out on the 7th and 9th level exalted spells (without other bard PrCs, anyway). I feel good with 12 / 14pun intended

    2)

    Let’s start the opportunity costs off with bard and sorcerer, although warmage seems like a good contender. First off, none of these will have the “good” aspect going for it. They can try to match the rest, though. A bard entry gains less than a sorcerer or warmage entry, because their spell list ends at 6th level. However, you don’t lose any abilities long-term, because you will still get Inspire Heroics at level 20. You do lose access to 6th level spells as a result of taking this PrC, which almost seems understood. The EA gains odd levels of spells going 3, 5, 7, 9, giving the bard entry a chance to take a 2 level dip and still salvage most of their casting. Whether or not the access to the few spells those levels grant you is worth it is another story. I think bard is probably better off skipping this one both because they can’t make use of all the spells and the two required metamagic feats really aren’t their thing. Sorcerer has no class features to speak of and additional known spells are great. Therefore, I think sorcerer is better off taking this PrC. As for warmage, it is a closer call. You lose an advanced learning but gain the sanctified spells. You also lose the sudden maximize and have your spells pushed back a level. It might be a little murky here because warmage knows all their spells so either they learn all the spells as they become available from the exalted list or you still gain them piecemeal per level. It is obviously much more enticing to say the exalted spells are added to the warmage’s list but I could see a DM ruling either way, since this isn’t the warmage’s list but rather the EA’s list. Thematically, I feel the warmage fits the EA well and it works better than the bard entry. 2 / 4

    3)

    These prereqs are a little higher than I would like. They are probably still in the medium range, though. The classes that you would expect to enter EA reach most of the prepreqs innately. Base WILL +5, knowledge (arcana), and 3rd level spontaneous arcane are all just going to happen. The knowledge (religion) is low enough you can get it cross classed which just leaves two less-than-desired metamagic feats: consecrate spell and purify spell. I am ok with 1 / 2

    Exalted Arcanist: 15 / 20


    Edited upon further consideration to increase 10 / 14 to 12 / 14 bringing my vote to 15 / 20
    Last edited by Mike Miller; 2020-08-16 at 01:07 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Sorry I jumped over discussing emissary- no one had replied in 2 days so I figured we were all chill with the rating. I agree with 4/20, the Calling ability is powerful, but only against a subset of enemies AND it's a full-round action so you can't even move into optimal position for it's 30ft range, and the chasis of the class is pretty garbage.

    As far as Arcanist, I'm inclined to improve my Class Features score based on the feedback, especially the Warmage reference point.

    I'm not sure about whether pre-reqs should be a 1 or 2, what is the line there?

    My vote is changed to 9 + 2 + 1 or 2 = 12 or 13/20
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  29. - Top - End - #209
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    As far as prereqs go, it is hard to give defined boundaries. However, two crappy MM feats on a feat starved sorcerer is a larger burden to carry than a two feat tax on a fighter or wizard who received bonus feats. That is why I went with 1 / 2 instead of giving it 2 / 2. The other prereqs are fine, but it really sucks to be down two feats on a sorc.
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    As far as prereqs go, it is hard to give defined boundaries. However, two crappy MM feats on a feat starved sorcerer is a larger burden to carry than a two feat tax on a fighter or wizard who received bonus feats. That is why I went with 1 / 2 instead of giving it 2 / 2. The other prereqs are fine, but it really sucks to be down two feats on a sorc.
    Ah, that makes sense.

    Anyone else have thoughts on the Emissary or Exalted Arcanist? I feel pretty comfortable with the scores.

    Next up is Fist of Raziel, and I've never played a paladin so I'm not sure how to judge it.
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