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  1. - Top - End - #271
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Dracolyte
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    1)
    The dracolyte worships dragon deities and gains draconic powers. It has a d8 HD, 2 skill points per level, good FORT and WlLL save, 3/4 BAB, and full casting progression. The chassis is pretty
    good, but let's see what the specials are.
    At first level, you gain a domain based on alignment. Glory domain for good aligned and Domination domain for evil aligned. Neutral that don't channel energy pick. Extra domains are
    nice
    Dead levels coming at all the even levels except 10.
    Third level is Alertness as a bonus feat. You win some and you lose some..
    Fifth level is a bit of a problem. You are ENTRUSTED with a WYRMLING that follows you on adventures. Suddenly your role is constantly escorting an NPC everywhere. If it dies, you can't
    gain additional Dracolyte levels until you atone. Remember, WYRMLING.
    Seventh level is immunity to magic sleep and paralysis effects. That is nice.
    Ninth is keen senses. In other words, darkvision out to 60 ft along with low light vision. This is definitely too late to actually be good.
    The capstone is Summon Dragon. It sounds better than it is. You are roughly level 15 here and you can summon an adult dragon once per day for one minute. I originally thought it was worse than I now believe, but it depends greatly on the dragon type. Adult dragon CRs vary by quite a lot. You could be looking at something appropriate for your ECL or not. It is iffy, but potentially helpful.
    Overall, the chassis is great but the abilities are lackluster. The dead levels scream for a five level version of the class. It feels on par with other "flavor" classes in general and fits its goal of being
    dragon-y. However, the bonus feat is unimpressive, the foster dragon is potentially a hindrance, and both keen senses and summon dragon come in way too late. Ill go with 8/14, and that is
    mostly because the chassis. Even if you don't find the abilities all that great, it is still a full caster with 3 / 4 bab and 2 good saves.

    2)
    Opportunity costs are back and forth here. Although the flavor text claims the cleric and druid are most likely to work, I don't see the rationale. Druid loses out on all the goodness of sticking
    with druid (aside from spell progression). Cleric doesn't really lose out, so I can see a cleric base. Ranger loses the same abilities l always bring up in 10 level PrCs and I don't think Dracolyte has much to show for losing them. Paladin is probably well off here, although losing BAB can be a sad moment. I'll go with 2/4 because you can win some or lose some.

    3)
    Moderate prereqs here. The big issue are the two lousy feats. Otherwise the skill ranks aren't so bad and the language is fine. Spellcasting is inevitable if you are working towards this class.
    say medium, courtesy of dragonfriend and toughness. 1/2
    Dracolyte: 11 / 20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
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    DMG 3.5e page 41:
    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    Dracolyte
    Take into account that druid and ranger cannot access the class until level 14 due to the lack of both Diplomacy and K Religion, and Paladin have to wait level 9 to get 2nd level spells.
    So, for the three of them, it's much harder to recommend the PrC.

    For the Cleric, you're trading two feats for a domain...I really struggle to see the PrC as worth more than a single level.
    Still, you're not really losing anything compared to pure cleric, so maybe 11/20 for a cleric base is correct.
    Last edited by noce; 2020-11-22 at 05:54 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #273
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    It says the Wyrmling can't gain levels, but you might be able to pull some shenanigans with age cursing. Or maybe you can convince your DM to give you a Wyrmling Prismatic Dragon. Both seem equally like things your DM might allow. That being said, there are rules for dragons and aging, so it really isn't clear what would happen during a really long campaign.

  4. - Top - End - #274
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalkra View Post
    It says the Wyrmling can't gain levels, but you might be able to pull some shenanigans with age cursing.
    You mean other than the fact it CLEARLY states your wrymiling cannot gain levels?
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  5. - Top - End - #275
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by lylsyly View Post
    You mean other than the fact it CLEARLY states your wrymiling cannot gain levels?
    It can't gain levels, no, but there's nothing stopping it from going up an age category or 5. Well, nothing aside from some dragon parents who will probably be very upset at the prospect (they could always just break the curse, I guess, but it's probably not very healthy for the wyrmling's developmental psychology).
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  6. - Top - End - #276
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Quote Originally Posted by lylsyly View Post
    You mean other than the fact it CLEARLY states your wrymiling cannot gain levels?
    It depends on a few things. First of all, suppose the Wyrmling gets hit with an Ennervate, and loses some of its RHD. Now suppose you hit it with a Greater Restoration. Would you say that it's ineffective, because it would cause the Wyrmling to gain levels?

    Another thing. Would you say that losing RHD causes a dragon to move back age categories? If so, no dragon should ever die of old age. If not, you could age your Wyrmling and give it the powers of its new age adjusted for the lack of RHD. No levels gained.

  7. - Top - End - #277
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    It can't gain levels, no, but there's nothing stopping it from going up an age category or 5. Well, nothing aside from some dragon parents who will probably be very upset at the prospect (they could always just break the curse, I guess, but it's probably not very healthy for the wyrmling's developmental psychology).
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalkra View Post
    It depends on a few things. First of all, suppose the Wyrmling gets hit with an Ennervate, and loses some of its RHD. Now suppose you hit it with a Greater Restoration. Would you say that it's ineffective, because it would cause the Wyrmling to gain levels?

    Another thing. Would you say that losing RHD causes a dragon to move back age categories? If so, no dragon should ever die of old age. If not, you could age your Wyrmling and give it the powers of its new age adjusted for the lack of RHD. No levels gained.
    You are both right of course. By RAW dragons advance thru age categories not "levels". RAI? I feel that it's yet another example of poor editing by WotC and that it was entended to remain a wyrmling.
    Currently Playing: Aire Romaris Chaotic Good Male Half Celestial Gray Elf Duskblade 13 / Swiftblade 7 /// Elven Generallist Wizard 20

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    MindFlayer

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    Quote Originally Posted by lylsyly View Post
    You are both right of course. By RAW dragons advance thru age categories not "levels". RAI? I feel that it's yet another example of poor editing by WotC and that it was entended to remain a wyrmling.
    Hard disagree.


    Given that Dragons quite explicitly don't need XP or class levels to advance, the restriction that they can't gain them does absolutely nothing to change how a Wyrmling Dragon would advance. Just that it isn't going to gain XP and class levels as a cohort or party member ordinarily would. Given that they are stated to participate in the party's adventures like cohorts or other followers do, that's a pretty logical thing for them to specify.

    Rather than gaining XP or class levels, though, the moment it hits 6 years old, it becomes a Very Young Dragon. Period. Full stop. At 16, it becomes a Young Dragon, and so on.

    That's just how Dragons work, and considering that they're not only a core creature from the core Monster Manual 1, but also in the very name of the game, it's not like that basic fact about Dragon advancement would be something the team would simply 'forget' or 'poorly edit'
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  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Wildstag's Avatar

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    The real bummer (unless there's some alternate class feature that gets around this) is that you can't just turn the Wyrmling into a Dragon Familiar, since the class works off of being a Divine caster. That feat would solve a lot of the weaknesses of having to literally babysit the spawn of a creature almost certainly capable of swallowing the PC in two bites.

    I'm really not certain what role the class is supposed to fill, but since it's a full caster with a few additional goodies (even if they're not too good), I'd say it's deserving of the score given it.

    Dragon Familiar is really the easy way to become a wyrmling-sitter while still getting to do fun things with it.

  10. - Top - End - #280
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    I joked with my players about using a wyrmling time dragon and have it make quips before battle starts.
    "You really kicked their asses this time!"
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    DMG 3.5e page 41:
    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  11. - Top - End - #281
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    I just wanted to chime in, that while it may not impact it's overall score, that a Wyrmling Gold Dragon is Medium sized, which means a Small Sized LG Cleric 5/Dracolyte 5 has an 8HD Wyrmling he could use as a mount.

    While it cannot gain Class levels, there's no reason it cannot age, with that said, without extended downtime, having your character wait 6 years to have it jump an age category is not viable. Also, I and other DM's may rule that once the Wyrmling has grown large enough, it moves on, so you can help foster another Wyrmling to an age where it can protect itself.

    This has however given me a hilarious build idea: A Paladin 10/Dracolyte 10, using the Dragon Steed feat from Draconomicon, and the Holy Mount feat from dragon 325, and Dragon Cohort feat has the following:
    Fosters a Wyrmling Gold Dragon, has a Young Gold Dragon Mount, a Young Gold Dragon Cohort (possibly Juvenile with DM permission), and 1/day he can cast Summon Dragon, basically calling their parent/older sibling. I call it the: "I was adopted, but my dragon family loves me anyway" build.
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  12. - Top - End - #282
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    MonkGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Step Two View Post
    I just wanted to chime in, that while it may not impact it's overall score, that a Wyrmling Gold Dragon is Medium sized, which means a Small Sized LG Cleric 5/Dracolyte 5 has an 8HD Wyrmling he could use as a mount.

    While it cannot gain Class levels, there's no reason it cannot age, with that said, without extended downtime, having your character wait 6 years to have it jump an age category is not viable. Also, I and other DM's may rule that once the Wyrmling has grown large enough, it moves on, so you can help foster another Wyrmling to an age where it can protect itself.

    This has however given me a hilarious build idea: A Paladin 10/Dracolyte 10, using the Dragon Steed feat from Draconomicon, and the Holy Mount feat from dragon 325, and Dragon Cohort feat has the following:
    Fosters a Wyrmling Gold Dragon, has a Young Gold Dragon Mount, a Young Gold Dragon Cohort (possibly Juvenile with DM permission), and 1/day he can cast Summon Dragon, basically calling their parent/older sibling. I call it the: "I was adopted, but my dragon family loves me anyway" build.
    That is such a great character idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    DMG 3.5e page 41:
    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    GrayDeath's Avatar

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    ^



    Fully agreed. Dang, that sounds fantastic.
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  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Wildstag's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Step Two View Post
    While it cannot gain Class levels, there's no reason it cannot age, with that said, without extended downtime, having your character wait 6 years to have it jump an age category is not viable. Also, I and other DM's may rule that once the Wyrmling has grown large enough, it moves on, so you can help foster another Wyrmling to an age where it can protect itself.
    This is how I would read it, because it seems very similar in intent to Dragon Familiar. That being said, I alluded to it in my reply, but I've played a character that in an epilogue session had become a metallic-dragon foster parent that would take a wyrmling out for a while to learn active participation in Goodness around the multiverse, and he had a wyrmling-waitlist, where parents the multiverse over were trying to get their wyrmlings under his tutelage.

    Given enough downtime or a strong enough Dracolyte, I can see that being the "happily ever after" for the Dracolyte as well, but for whatever motivation they find dragons willing to do. But there's also a lot you can do with it. You could just be a serial egg-snatcher and each time you raise a new wyrmling.

    It's an interesting fluff ability, I'm just not really certain how it'd be good for anything besides diplomatic/intimidation scenarios.

  15. - Top - End - #285
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    It's an interesting fluff ability, I'm just not really certain how it'd be good for anything besides diplomatic/intimidation scenarios.
    Yeah, it's super niche, outside of the aforementioned Small Sized Cleric 5/Dracolyte 5 in which you'd have a very serviceable mount for a couple of levels, but there would be a point where you'd out pace it, and the encounters it faces would be too dangerous to justify allowing something in your care to deal with.

    The bigger issue is how wildly unbalanced the actual Wyrmling would be in the party, based on your alignment. Because if you happen to be CE, a wyrmling White Dragon has an ECL of 5, making it a total liability. Whereas if you are LG, a Wyrmling Gold has an ECL of 12, which can punch above the weight of the Party for a short time.

    However in looking at dragon stats I found one really fun RP element, Wyrmling Gold and Silver Dragons have Alternate Form the moment they hatch, so you can actually disguise them as a party member, which can lead to some great moments as the literal Days old Dragon looks like a young-to-adult humanoid of their choice learning about the world. Not mechanically relevant, but fun nonetheless.

    Oh, and for the "I was adopted, but my dragon family loves me anyway" build, Wizard 1/Paladin 9/Dracolyte 10, taking Mystic Fire Knight Substitution levels for the CL increase, Sword of the Arcane Order feat, (and possibly Practiced Spellcaster if I didn't do the CL math properly) so you can take Draconic Familiar for another Wyrmling Dragon with Arcane CL of 14+
    Last edited by One Step Two; 2020-11-25 at 05:35 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #286
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Dragonkith

    1)
    The Dragonkith is just some generic dragon assistant that could be any creature with or without any class level. Thanks, descriptive text, for being so resolute on background information! The Dragonkith has a d8 HD, 4 skill ranks per level, full BAB, and good FORT. Prepare yourself for dead levels and the inevitable "this isn't for spellcasters regardless of your 'any class' fluff!"
    First level gets NA+1 from dragon type scales and a telepathic plea which is a one way message to you from your now-in-danger dragon friend. The scales slowly increase to +4 at 10th.
    Second level sees a poor excuse for more damage in the form of a once per day (miss and lose it) extra 1d6 on a single attack. This slowly scales to +3d6 at 8th.
    Third level has Detect Treasure, which has to be the best part! It "works like detect magic" except you locate treasure medium sized and smaller worth 100 GP or more. The class just went from dragon friend to greedy rogue. "Don't bother checking this room guys, nothing here... Incidentally I'm just going to rest for a moment. You go ahead, I'll catch up.." Also at 3 is corresponding energy resistance to the dragon's breath weapon type. It slowly scales from 5 now to 15 at 9th.
    Fourth level has telepathic link such that you and your dragon can communicate within one mile and are treated as being familiar with each other's locations. This is good stuff.
    Sixth level has you gain a single sorcerer spell up to 3rd level which you must meet the CHA prereq to cast, once per day. There are some good spells to choose from (I tend to get the names of the Sorc only spells mixed up, but I think Wings of Cover is the good one), so one spell is better than no spells.
    Lastly, ninth level has share spells such that you can share spells with your dragon buddy. Here come the (arguably) dead levels: 2, 4, 7, 8, 10. They all just get "+numbers." Half the levels don't add
    anything new, the capstone is +1 NA, the "Special prereq" is "dragon dies, you lose everything," and you have a spidey sense related to your dragon about to die. The class feels all over the place. It isn't so much a dragon friend as an apathetic dragon coworker. I don't see anything particularly special about the class in terms of dragon power or how the dragon bestows power. It is mostly natural armor and energy resistance with the hope that the dragon bails you out when you realize you don't have useful abilities? At least you have full BAB... 4 / 14

    2)
    Opportunity costs are a bit harder here, because the flavor text is so kind as to open it to all of everything. With that on the line, yes, this is a bad choice. If you focus on just smashy-smashy types, which this really leans heavily towards, it probably isn't great. You get a little defensive power, and even less offensive power. I won't even try a skill monkey comparison because it really only has one utility spell potential. Even a fighter could do more with its five bonus feats than this. 0/4

    3)
    The prereqs are low, but the feats are not good. BAB 6 is inevitable. Alertness and Endurance are not great. Knowledge arcana 4 is easy and draconic is also easy. I'll stick with minor. 2/2

    Dragonkith 6/20
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    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  17. - Top - End - #287
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    This class could be outperformed by an unoptimized Truenamer. 6/20 seems fair.
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  18. - Top - End - #288
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Yeah the whole think feels very anemic and blah. You are waiting for the good stuff that never comes...

  19. - Top - End - #289
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Dragonrider
    1)
    The fantasy trope of riding a dragon mount in the form of a prestige class. It starts out in a familiar, scary vein: characters of all classes... but then makes it clear it is for meatheads... though the most common are barbarians, fighters, etc. Good save, fluff text! The chassis is d10 HD, full BAB, good FORT and WILL, with 2 skill points per level, and for some reason specific weapon proficiencies and ALL armor/shield proficiencies.
    First level is dragonriding, which is a bonus to ride checks for riding dragons and somehow increasing the dragon's flight maneuverability by one level. Also, when on or adjacent to your dragon you are immune to frightful presence of dragons.
    Second level is a boost to concentration checks for casting while riding, which you shouldn't really be doing because you shouldn't be a spellcaster. Ok, maybe a ranger or paladin. Fine.
    Third level has a bonus feat from a small selection of mounted combat stuffs.
    Fourth is being treated as having flyby attack, not actually granting flyby attack....Odd distinction and I don't think they would stack in any way if you also had the feat
    Fifth is spur mount, which is a pretend ride check of DC 20 (you should have at least a +21 by now) to increase the dragon mount's speeds.
    Fortunately this class is only five levels long! I think the mounted spellcasting is a bit off, but overall, all the abilities are good ones that make you better at riding dragons. I think REF would have made a bit more sense than WILL, but WILL is arguably better anyhow. I didn't think I would like this one at first, but it works. Look at what happens when WotC makes the PrC short and to the point! 12/14 I know I always have a comment about the artwork and I usually don't bring it up, but this one....Look at that shield. I understand it is supposed to look like an open dragon mouth, but it is a shield! Having a big HOLE in the middle defeats the purpose!!!

    2)
    This one seems a little trickier for me when it comes to opportunity costs. If you want to be a dragon rider, this gets you some handy stuff in rapid succession. Some can just be taken as feats, such as flyby attack and the bonus feat, but other things aren't so readily duplicated, such as the dragonriding and spur mount. I will hesitantly go with 3/4

    3)
    BAB is inevitable, the feats are useful for the class, the skill ranks are not bad, language is Simple, so minor it is! 2/2
    Dragonrider 17/ 20
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    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
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    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  20. - Top - End - #290
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    I don't think I ever realized that that was a shield grandfather orc is leaning on... A couple random comments, since the dragonrider must meet all prerequisites for the bonus feat at 3rd level not all dragonriders will be able to take weapon specialization which is slightly amusing. Also Dragonrider makes a good starting PRC for Dragon Rider prc from dragonlance campaign setting especially if you can convince your DM to let the immune to frightful presence of dragons replace the Resist Dragonfear feat...

    Anyways not the best prc out there but it does what it says it does and I am ok with 17/20

  21. - Top - End - #291
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Dragonslayer
    1)
    This one seems pretty straightforward as far as fluff goes. It has a d10 HD, proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, all armor, and all shields, full BAB, good FORT and WILL, and even has 5/10 spellcasting for some reason. This is a decent chassis.
    First level sees Aura of courage which is both fear immunity and a boost to saves vs fear for adjacent allies. Also a damage bonus on weapon rolls vs dragons equal to class level, which is not bad considering it will be multiplied on criticals.
    Second level has Overcome draconic spell resistance which is self explanatory, right? A boost for CL checks to overcome dragons' SR.
    Third level begins an unimpressive DR 1/- that eventually hits 3/-
    Fourth and Eighth are true dead levels: no special, no spells
    Fifth is energy resist 5 which starts off as an eye roll, but immediately becomes interesting when you realize it is all 5 elements instead of just picking one. This goes to 10 at level 10.
    Sixth level is DR 2/- and Lightning Reflexes
    Seventh is Imp. Crit. except for any weapon used against a dragon. Nice
    Ninth is basically a dead level, DR 3/-
    Tenth has the aforementioned rise in energy resistance and also true strike once per day as a
    move action.
    I started out thinking I wouldn't like this class. Despite its dead levels and half casting, this class would be really nice in a campaign focused on taking out dragons. WotC actually made solid choices in giving this class abilities that are useful, like across-the-board element resistance and applying a feat to all attacks instead of one weapon. Instead of dinging it for being a half caster, I consider it more of icing on the cake. You really should be coming in as a primary caster anyhow. The DR is pathetically low and there are still two levels that you wish you could do something meaningful, but this class is very effective at doing its job and I approve. 12 /14

    2)
    The fluff text is no help again. It just goes googly eyes over how awesome every class thinks they would be if they took dragonslayer. To me, this is a smashy smashy class that happens to have a boost to casting. The prereqs do not include anything resembling a caster prereq and the proficiencies scream warrior. You gain more useful stuff than fighter bonus feats provide, your DR comes in faster than a barbarian, you don't have animal companions/mounts like a ranger or paladin, but you get both offensive and defensive abilities. I think there are some serious multiclass opportunities here and the breadth and depth of what you can do is too wide to really gauge in a short order. I'll stick with 3 / 4 call it a day.

    3)
    The prereqs are pretty minimal. I think this is an easy minor prereq rating. BAB is inevitable, tumble 2 ranks is easy, dodge isn't great, but iron will is useful for any character. 2/2
    Dragonslayer 17/ 20
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Dragonslayer has some weird prerequisites. Iron Will is always nice, but then it gives you immunity to fear effects, so the majority of will saves a dragon throws at you (basically its aura) is neutralized immediately. Two ranks of tumble seems a bit absurd; I'd assume it'd have ranks in the relevant Knowledge for identification.

    Energy Resistance, Improved Critical, Overcome Draconic Spell Resistance, and the Damage Bonus all are solid abilities though. If all you're fighting is creatures with the Dragon type, you're set. You'll get the least effectiveness from the Overcome ability assuming the character is primarily martial, but Energy Resistance also is just a bit low for the lack of Reflex saves and Lightning Reflexes doesn't bridge that gap too well.

    It does seem like it deserves its score.

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Dragonslayer is one of those that does what the description suggests which is nice. In a dragon heavy campaign I think it is reasonable 17/20, in 90% of games its probably a 7/20 since most of the abilities don't translate. If its improved critical and Overcome Draconic Spell Resistance worked across the board or dragons plus all favored enemies or could be expanded somehow this thing would be ok as a 17/20.

    As is I think it is closer to 12/20 just because the PRC is too focused.

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    In a way, I think the prestige class works well as an "X"-Slayer, where X is equal to a relevant creature type (or subtype). If it were more broadly applicable, it'd definitely be one of the best martial PrCs (IMO). Maybe almost better as a Ranger PrC thematically.

    Otherwise, it's just a Fighter with a better save but weaker in every other way. Energy Resistance and Aura of Courage make it Fighter+, but the class only gets two bonus feats, which makes it more like a Fighter-.

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    I'll actually vote on this one and go along with Mike Miller's 17/20. I like it so much I have converted it into Orc Slayer/Ogre Slayer/Elf Slayer/Dwarf Slayer .... ect. ;-)
    Currently Playing: Aire Romaris Chaotic Good Male Half Celestial Gray Elf Duskblade 13 / Swiftblade 7 /// Elven Generallist Wizard 20

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    Dragonslayer is one of those that does what the description suggests which is nice. In a dragon heavy campaign I think it is reasonable 17/20, in 90% of games its probably a 7/20 since most of the abilities don't translate. If its improved critical and Overcome Draconic Spell Resistance worked across the board or dragons plus all favored enemies or could be expanded somehow this thing would be ok as a 17/20.

    As is I think it is closer to 12/20 just because the PRC is too focused.
    Having Improved Critical across the board wouldn't be much of an improvement in my view. The feat is useless since keen and impact are a thing, don't stack with Improved Critical, and don't take up a feat slot. And the class feature doesn't change that, so it's basically useless as well, a null feature. Without Disciple of Dispater shenanigans (which you'd need gestalt for to make it work) or wielding some obscure weapon with a native 17-20 threat range, you're still getting a maximum of about a 15-20 threat range, which isn't bad, but which anyone with about 8 grand and a liking for knitting needles can get with a keen rapier.

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Having Improved Critical across the board wouldn't be much of an improvement in my view. The feat is useless since keen and impact are a thing, don't stack with Improved Critical, and don't take up a feat slot. And the class feature doesn't change that, so it's basically useless as well, a null feature. Without Disciple of Dispater shenanigans (which you'd need gestalt for to make it work) or wielding some obscure weapon with a native 17-20 threat range, you're still getting a maximum of about a 15-20 threat range, which isn't bad, but which anyone with about 8 grand and a liking for knitting needles can get with a keen rapier.
    I feel like that's not really a fair assessment. It doesn't really take up a feat slot; it just adds a feat. There's no rule that says a character can have a maximum feat count, and this isn't a feat in place of the ones you get from levelling up. It's entirely a bonus.

    It also allows you to save some money and invest in a different enhancement. With the standard idea of a fighter carrying around a caddy with different weapons, it's a free keen/impact on EVERY weapon you use. It's like having 40+ free feats rolled into one class feature. Alternatively, it allows a character to save 16k just to get Keen on two or more weapons. It benefits TWF-ers moreso than other fighting styles, but still...

    Any class feature that allows a character to have more variety is a good thing.

    P.S. How would you need to gestalt to make Disciple/Dragonslayer work? The second level of Iron Power kicks in at level 8; the Improved Critical feature comes in at level 7. Since the Dragonslayer only needs BAB +5 to enter, you can enter it at level 6. From there, at level 12 enter Disciple of Dispater for 8 class levels, getting double range at 16 and triple range at 20. No gestalt necessary.

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Having Improved Critical across the board wouldn't be much of an improvement in my view. The feat is useless since keen and impact are a thing, don't stack with Improved Critical, and don't take up a feat slot. And the class feature doesn't change that, so it's basically useless as well, a null feature. Without Disciple of Dispater shenanigans (which you'd need gestalt for to make it work) or wielding some obscure weapon with a native 17-20 threat range, you're still getting a maximum of about a 15-20 threat range, which isn't bad, but which anyone with about 8 grand and a liking for knitting needles can get with a keen rapier.
    No it wouldn't but it would still be an improvement, so would having SR across the board and not just against dragons. Neither are that great but they are improvements and even in dragon heavy games you are still going to come across other things.

    You can get Iron Power from Disciple of Dispater and the Improved Critical ability from Dragonslayer by level 20 but to be honest taking 7 levels of dragonslayer isn't worth the investment compared to just taking the Improved Critical feat...

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Dragonsong Lyrist
    1)
    This lyrist uses the power of the dragonsong. That should clear everything up, right? The class has a d6 HD, 4 skill points per level, 3 / 4 BAB, good REF and WILL saves, and 2 / 5 casting progression. It also doesn't use bardic music uses for its abilities, so doesn't really need to be a bard.
    First level is the song of strength, which...boosts strength. It is a morale bonus, which is decent.
    Second is song of compulsion which is just suggestion, mind-affecting, language dependent, and kinda meh.
    Third is flight, as the spell, and most likely the best part of the class.
    Fourth is fear and just as bad as you would expect.
    Fifth is even worse: a poor healing ability.
    This class is simply not worth it. The abilities are mostly poor, replicated easily, and limited. You are like a poor man's bard. Just, no. 3 / 14
    2)
    Honestly, this one is so bad I don't see any competition losing to it. Stay with bard to continue full bard casting. Stay with the suggested sorcerer/rogue multiclass to still be a more useful party member. Just, ew. 0 / 4
    3)
    The prereqs are not great. At least the prereqs for the feat Dragonsong overlap with the rest of the class's prereqs. The skills are plentiful: concentration, diplomacy, k. (arcana), perform, all 5 except the 10 at the end. Draconic is easy and nonevil is arbitrary. I'll say 1 / 2
    Dragonsong Lyrist 4 / 20
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Hmm wow Dragonsong Lyrist is pretty terrible. song of strength is decent, at least moral bonus isn't that common so it won't be wasted most of the time, greater dragon song DCs seriously suck so by default suggestion and fear suck. Suggestion is strictly worse than bard suggestion in every possible way so there is that, fear song only affects those with less hd than you between that and the DC it is worthless, flight for 3-5 minutes at level 10 min that affects only 3-5 people sucks but at least it is your second best ability, healing song is insulting for a level 12+ character.
    I am on the fence with prerequisites as they are all reasonable and there is only one feat so I think this one should be 2/2, on the other hand concentration shouldn't be used with a bard but as said going in with sorc/bard or something else is also a reasonable entry point.
    5/20 still sucks but those are easy entry requirements.

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