PrC Evaluation Thread

[Mike Miller]

Archmage

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1)
The archmage is a powerful, learned arcane caster. It follows standard arcane caster stats with poor BAB, poor fort and reflex, and d4 HD with only 2 skill points per level. Nothing interesting there. It is a full casting PrC, so that ensures a certain level of versatility and power.

High arcana is its one special ability. You select one option from a set each level for all five of its levels. Each ability must sacrifice one or more spell slots permanently to fuel the ability.

Arcane Fire is wholly underwhelming, maxing out at 14d6 damage at the expense of two 9th level spell slots: one permanent and one daily. As far as trap options go, this is a notable one. (-2 points for being so weak and having high costs)

Arcane Reach allows for spells with a range of touch to instead be used on a target up to 30 feet away. Take it again and it goes up to 60 feet. This one is useful, but it comes at the price of a 7th level spell slot each time. I think this is fairly valuable, even if it can be replicated with the metamagic Reach Spell. (-1 point for being replicated with metamagic and costing two 7ths just to get a decent range)

Mastery of Counterspelling is good. Generally counterspelling is overlooked in my experience. I have managed to use it to great effect, though, even without a build focused on counterspelling. One issue that I see with counterspelling that isn't addressed with this ability, is that you are potentially wasting an action with your readied counterspell if no spells are cast or if you just fail. Given that, I still like this ability as it turns the spell back on the caster with a successful counterspell. It is a straight improvement on counterspelling.

Mastery of Elements can change the element of a spell at the time of casting. The energy substitution feat can also change energy types, so this ability isn't wholly unique. It costs an 8th level spell slot, which feels rather high for a damage modification ability. I want to like this versatility, but I don't think it is entirely worth it. (-1 point for the high spell slot cost and being very similar to a feat)

Mastery of Shaping is another high arcana ability that can be replaced with a feat. Sculpt Spell does the same thing. It only costs a 6th level spell slot this time, though. It is good at what it does and I am somewhat on the fence about this one. I feel like it is probably worth the spell slot and better than losing a feat, as there are high level spells you can benefit from with this that you wouldn't be able to use with the metamagic (unless using reduction).

Spell Power is just a CL boost of 1. It costs a 5th level spell slot. If you really want to boost CL, there are better ways. (-2 for being a rather poor way to boost CL and basically a trap option)

Spell-like ability is possibly the best use of high arcana, even if you have to sacrifice a 5th level spell slot and another spell slot. You permanently prepare one of your spells as a spell-like which you can use twice a day. One reason this is good is because spell-likes don't require spell components. The downside is that this specific usage still requires whatever XP cost the spell originally had and any GP cost must be payed in blood, I mean, 10x the GP cost in XP. Another way to look at this is that you are gaining an extra high level spell slot. For example, if you use it to turn an 8th level spell into a spell-like, you lost a 5th and an 8th slot, but you gain 2 uses of an 8th level spell as a spell-like. You are one 8th level spell ahead now.

Archmage definitely has its uses, even if there are some duds in the high arcana. This is probably best as a dip. I could see someone taking all five levels, but that is a lot of sacrifical spell slots for abilities that can sometimes be replicated. 8 / 14

2)
Opportunity costs? Sorcerer and wizard are the obvious choices. Let's look at those, but also warmage. These classes all share similar base stats with the exception being a warmage has a d6 HD, so it loses out on a little potential HP with Archmage. The obvious lack of class features from Sorcerer means you are gaining the most from Archmage. All you are really losing from earliest wizard entry is a bonus feat, which you can still pick up after your Archmage levels. For warmage, you lose the opporunity to gain an Advanced Learning and Sudden Maximize. Neither are earth-shattering losses, but still something to consider given that warmages are blasters, typically.

As spontaneous casters, the sorcerer and warmage have less interest in the spell-like function of high arcana. Warmage is so focused on blasting that Master of Elements and Mastery of Shaping are likely noticeably better options than for a generalist wizard or non-blaster sorcerer. With fewer spells known, the Sorcerer would have to specialize on touch spells to make Arcane Reach worthwhile, though. I think Archmage fits all three of these classes, but they end up looking quite different from one another. The base classes each want their own high arcana selections.

This one is tough, but overall I think the levels are worthwhile for all of these base classes. It would probably be 4 / 4 except you permanently lose spell slots for these abilities, which does cut into your versatility over time. I think it is worth 1 point. 3 / 4

3)
This is an easy “major” prereq rating. 7th level spells alone mean you must be a full caster. Multiple 15 rank skills are also prohibitive if you spread your skill points around or multiclass a lot. “Knowledge” skills play varying roles from table to table, so you may be wasting skill points on that one. The feat requirements are nearly straight feat taxes for some builds. At least as a warmage you are likely to benefit from Spell Focus (Evocation), since blasting is their primary function. It is worth noting that warmage must use one of its advanced learning abilities to enter Archmage, as warmage only has 4 schools of spells 5th or higher when it could otherwise enter the PrC. 0 / 2

Archmage: 11 / 20

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Not sure if I actually disagree with your analysis of Archmage, but I think you might be overpenalizing abilities that can be replicated with a feat. Feats are expensive commodities, almost three times more so than class levels. Getting what is almost a bonus feat every level while still fully advancing casting seems like a positive to me, rather than a negative. As long as you choose the worthwhile options, of course, but the fact that you can choose between several is another mark in the class's favor.

[Covenant12]

Really not agreeing with your assessment of Archmage or each high arcana, I consider it a great prestige class. (with painful prereqs, I admit)

Also, you wrote and sig'ed a Master Specialist handbook (which looks quite good btw), mentioning like the book does it sets up well for Archmage, and don't mention Master Specialist when criticizing the prereqs of Archmage? I'm honestly just confused on that one.
Master Specialist is huge for it, as Spell Focus(specialized school) might be great for +1 DC, you get a second feat free, so that leaves one more Spell Focus. Transmutation or necromancy when you don't specialize in them may not be ideal, but it has some value.

Arcane Fire's damage is not really competing with "Orb of XXX" line for damage, very true. It is (Su), meaning SR: No, and can't fail concentration. It has long range, which isn't common. It is typeless damage, which can be a game changer. I'm not a huge fan, and I think 9th level slot is high, but there's uses.

Arcane Reach is very valued on these boards, some will take it twice. There are some good melee touch spells, now they can be used safely. Yes a feat does this, but that's not a great feat and increases spell level. Note for wizards who dump str and invest in dex, melee touch became ranged touch, much better hit chance.

Mastery of Counterspelling is niche, at best. Counterspelling without serious investment is awful. Readied action to hit with "Orb of ___" on casting a spell is generally far better. You *can* make counterspelling good, but it takes real effort. Hence my view as niche.

Mastery of Elements really depends. A wizard who does elemental damage will find picking from 5 every time a big deal. It is a feat, but Acid/Fire/Cold/Lightning are separate feats, and I don't think sonic is an option. Really depends on the wizard, some nearly never do damage.

Master of Shaping is utterly fantastic. AoE the melee pile without hitting allies. Fireball, or a good spell like glitterdust or black tentacles. Sculpt spell is a feat, doesn't allow fine-tuning to 5' squares, and raises spell level by 1. Also this can do somewhat broken things like Anti-Magic Shell and excluding your own square.
I'd need a very good reason not to take this first on any Archmage, if you can't be a better battlefield controller with this I don't know how to help you.

Spell Power isn't great, I agree it's mostly if nothing else was appealing. I think it was + DC for all schools in 3.0, I'm not impressed with +1 caster level.

Spell-like isn't my favorite, but many love it and its quite good if you have a favorite spell or two. 5th and 9th for 2 9ths is good math, and at minimum no Verbal or Somatic components. Not my first pick, but I'd spend real time considering it on any Archmage.

Prereqs aren't easy, but any wizard it is likely two feats wasted, at worst. Every wizard better take max Spellcraft. Not maxing know(arcana) would be quite strange. Non-wizard spellcasters have serious concerns qualifying, fair. It isn't really designed for them.
This is a solid PrC with +1 spellcasting each level and great stuff on top. It won't fit every Wizard build, but most who don't take it will have very strong reasons to take something better instead.

The prereqs may deserve penalties, but I consider it a Wizard PrC. And it is a powerhouse for a T1 class, I really don't see below 15/20. Also core and +1 spellcasting each level, good combo for picky DM's.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Really not agreeing with your assessment of Archmage or each high arcana, I consider it a great prestige class. (with painful prereqs, I admit)

*snip*

I largely agree with this assessment over the original. Yes, losing spell slots can hurt, but Archmage can still be a nice capstone for an arcane caster. Without any early entry tricks, you're looking at taking it at level 14 at the earliest.

I'll also double down on the SLA class feature. With even a mild amount of metamagic abilities, it can pay for itself and then some. My personal favorite is to use it with a Wu Jen/Jade Phoenix Mage Gish, take a (persisted) Body Outside Body as the SLA, and then have 3-4 copies that are all able to initiate maneuvers, use 1/day class features, and other such nonsene to beat face. Sure, they don't have many HP to start, but they have more "tricks" than the default, Wu Jen-only BOB has.

[Mike Miller]

Really not agreeing with your assessment of Archmage or each high arcana, I consider it a great prestige class. (with painful prereqs, I admit)

Also, you wrote and sig'ed a Master Specialist handbook (which looks quite good btw), mentioning like the book does it sets up well for Archmage, and don't mention Master Specialist when criticizing the prereqs of Archmage? I'm honestly just confused on that one.
Master Specialist is huge for it, as Spell Focus(specialized school) might be great for +1 DC, you get a second feat free, so that leaves one more Spell Focus. Transmutation or necromancy when you don't specialize in them may not be ideal, but it has some value.

Thanks for your input and kind words on my handbook. I am purposely not comparing other PrCs because that is a slippery slope to dozens upon dozens of comparisons. I do agree that master specialist sets you up for archmage. I am just trying to stick with base class comparisons for the purposes of these evaluations.

[PhantasyPen]

I'm not really in a good headspace right now, so I won't go into detail, but I feel like you were being too generous with the archmage still. Each of the abilities that can be replaced with a feat (which is nearly every High Arcana when you really break it down) should be -2 for being A.) Replaceable with a single feat, and B.) Being significantly more expensive than their feat counterparts. I would give the Archmage at most 5/20 for being a semi-decent one-level dip for a counterspelling build with Mastery of Dispelling.

[Rijan_Sai]

An interesting thing to note about DMG PRCs: they do not all advance casting in the same way! Taking out the ones that don't advance casting at all, the ones that have their own separate casting, and that one non-OGL Mage that shall remain nameless, we are left with:

Arcane Trickster, Archmage, Eldritch Knight, Loremaster, Mystic Theurge, and Thaumaturgist. Looking at each one individually:

Spells per Day

When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting.* If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

*Now, this one is really interesting, and we need to come back to it...

Spells per Day/Spells Known

When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.

We'll revisit this one in particular, too.

Spells per Day

From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an eldritch knight, she must decide to which class she adds each level of eldritch knight for the purpose of determining spells per day.

You know what, I'll just break this down after the rest of them...

Spells per Day/Spells Known

When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of loremaster to the level of some other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly.

Spells per Day

When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Spells per Day

When a new thaumaturgist level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of thaumaturgist to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one spellcasting class before he became a thaumaturgist, he must decide to which class he adds each level of thaumaturgist for the purpose of determining spells per day.

So, if we notice a trend, Eldritch Knight, Mystic Theurge, and Thaumaturgist all give increased spells per day and caster level, but no indication of spells known.
Arcane Trickster gains spells per day and "an increased effective level of spellcasting," whatever that means... (Caster Level increase? not sure...)

Loremaster is the only one to specifically state that you gain spells per day, spells known, and caster level increase!

Which brings me to Archmage. The Archmage, the ultimate spellcaster, Master of the Arcane Arts™… he gets an increase in spell per day and spells known, but no mention at all of caster level! If I am reading this correctly, you HAVE to use High Arcana to increase you CL!

Make of that what you will for your evaluations... (and remember to keep your eyes open when looking at splatbook PRCs!)
...Okay, I probably had more to say after this rant, but I don't remember now...

[Mike Miller]

Assassin

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1)
The assassin needs no introduction, as its name already instill a mental image of the character. With 3 /4 BAB, good Reflex save, and its own spellcasting progression, it is off to a decent start.

At a glance, the spell list is useful, but not the most impressive. However with splats, the list increases in pleasant ways. The only downside to the assassin's casting is that RAW states that it casts as a bard. Bards require verbal components... This doesn't lend itself well to a sneaky assassin. Some further clarification on that point would have been nice.

Sneak attack a la rogue, which is good. Poison use, which is situational at best. A case of “+ numbers” against poison, which may be forgettable and functionally dead levels. Uncanny dodge, which will likely be improved uncanny dodge, since rogue is an obvious entry. Also, improved uncanny dodge. (-2 for minor abilities which are practically dead levels for 6 out of 10 levels if not for casting)

The signature move of the assassin is the Death Attack. I want to like this, but it is not practical for combat. Saying an attack, called “DEATH attack,” is not suitable for combat, does not bode well. It takes 3 rounds of studying a target to then make the death attack. You choose to paralyze or kill the target. Either way, there is a scaling Fort save based on class level and INT. This ability feels more like an NPC move or highly situational PC attack. My biggest complaint is the attack must be made with a melee weapon. You already have a 3 round wait time. Denying the ranged option really takes away from the assassin vibe. Death Attack is a real let down. (-2 points for being a failure of a signature move)

The final ability, which is not a capstone, is Hide in Plain Sight. This is generally useful, as there should always be “some sort of shadow” nearby unless you are in some barren plain or desert. Even then, the rest of your party should be creating “some sort of shadow.” (-1 not because of HiPS, but because there is both no capstone and no real motive to continue after this point other than spellcasting)

This is definitely a versatile class as both a skill monkey and caster. Some of the features are forgettable or situational, but spellcasting is spellcasting. 9 / 14

2)
Comparing opportunity costs for the assassin must begin with the rogue. A quick evaluation it is, because you get spellcasting progression instead of those crappy rogue “special abilities.” Clearly you are better off in assassin than rogue.

Monk/Assassin or Monksassin is an amusing concept. You could enter at level 6 just like a rogue. You lose out on all those juicy monk abilities, like... Improved evasion. And... the speed boost? Anyway, it seems like this should be a rather amusing assassin. Although you lose extra flurry attacks and increased damage dice, you do gain sneak attack. Also, a few levels can almost be made up with a monk's belt.

Perhaps something different now. Swordsage has sneaky rogue style moves with the Shadow Hand discipline. The SS loses its good will save entering assassin and fewer skill points and smaller HD. Not a great start. Comparing the list of assassin spells to the swordsage's maneuvers, I think swordsage comes out ahead. Both are versatile, but I do think you'd be better off just staying swordsage and playing the part of an assassin. In the long run, SS has a decent capstone ability which you can't obtain if you take assassin.

Overall, the assassin spells are pretty good even if they cap at 4th level. I think generally you are better off having the levels even if some levels are nearly dead levels. You are probably better off not staying until 10. Level 8 would likely be the last level I would recommend, if only for HiPS and more level 4 spells. 3 / 4

3)
These preres are among the easiest. Definitely “minor” this time. Easy skill ranks and a fluff requirement that won't stop you. 2 / 2

Assassin 14 / 20

[Saintheart]

The signature move of the assassin is the Death Attack. I want to like this, but it is not practical for combat. Saying an attack, called “DEATH attack,” is not suitable for combat, does not bode well. It takes 3 rounds of studying a target to then make the death attack. You choose to paralyze or kill the target. Either way, there is a scaling Fort save based on class level and INT. This ability feels more like an NPC move or highly situational PC attack. My biggest complaint is the attack must be made with a melee weapon. You already have a 3 round wait time. Denying the ranged option really takes away from the assassin vibe. Death Attack is a real let down. (-2 points for being a failure of a signature move)

For what it's worth, a wand of Deathsight (CMage) in a wand chamber on your chosen shiv solves the 3 round waiting time. The other way to make it a bit more effective is to focus on a combination of poisoning and Ambush feats like Sickening Strike and Terrifying Strike, because they bring down the target's saving throws. Consider Black Lotus poison: 3d6 CON damage, which kicks in before the Death Attack hits and which accordingly nukes the Fort save otherwise required to beat the Death Attack It's not optimal, sure, but it's still better than Smite Evil.

You're right that obviously it's not available at range, but there's always Bloodfreeze Arrow (CoR) as a swift action on your arrows which at least gives you the paralysis on similar-ish terms.

[Mike Miller]

For what it's worth, a wand of Deathsight (CMage) in a wand chamber on your chosen shiv solves the 3 round waiting time. The other way to make it a bit more effective is to focus on a combination of poisoning and Ambush feats like Sickening Strike and Terrifying Strike, because they bring down the target's saving throws. Consider Black Lotus poison: 3d6 CON damage, which kicks in before the Death Attack hits and which accordingly nukes the Fort save otherwise required to beat the Death Attack It's not optimal, sure, but it's still better than Smite Evil.

You're right that obviously it's not available at range, but there's always Bloodfreeze Arrow (CoR) as a swift action on your arrows which at least gives you the paralysis on similar-ish terms.

It is unfortunate that one would need to jump through hoops just to use their signature ability effectively.

[liquidformat]

On the whole I think your evaluation is pretty good though I think you rate Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge a bit too harshly, If I am going into assassin from rogue for example I always take disrupting attack if I take the 4th level of rogue. Also if you go in from Monk, Swordsage, swashbuckler, Ranger, or some combination of classes it is a useful ability. As such I would adjust the rating to 15/20.

On a side note at least they didn't add insult to injury by making Death attack a per day ability...

[PhantasyPen]

It is unfortunate that one would need to jump through hoops just to use their signature ability effectively.

"Jumping through hoops" seemed to be the big problem with Death Attack, probably because WotC actually thought it could some how be an Instant Kill if it was used (hello Massive Damage rules). Personally I always assumed the melee requirement was because for whatever reason WotC *really* didn't want Sneak Attack or its variants to work on ranged attacks. The "within 30 feet" restriction always said to me "we'll give you the option, but it's really not the one we want you to take, so we're going to make it as inconvenient as possible."


... Huh, I think I just described their entire philosophy towards martial characters.

EDIT: I also think you were a bit harsh on improved uncanny dodge, 15/20 seems appropriate to me.

[Mike Miller]

Blackguard

Spoiler

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1)
The blackguard is typically considered the antipaladin. He is the evil, black knight doing all the evil things all the time, because he is evil. If you aren't sure the blackguard is evil, look at the artwork again. Or Detect Evil. There is an aura of evil on the blackguard to cement this perception. It fits the standard martial chassis of full BAB and only good FORT save along with d10 HD.

He can detect good at will and use poison safely (heh). Just like the paladin, he applies his CHA to saves, which is always nice. The blackguard also has spellcasting, which is good. However, the spells per day is pitiful; possibly the least spells per day of any class. The spell list is also short and isn't that impressive. Splats help with the spell list, but they are still limited to their paltry per day amount.

They can also smite (eventually) three times per day, for whatever little good that is. I do like the Aura of Despair, though. Enemies within 10 ft take a -2 to saves, which is obviously useful. He can command undead in an ambiguous way. Is it 2 levels lower than a cleric of his class level or his character level? My guess is they meant class level, but I hope the DM lets it be character level, ugh. Another potentially helpful but clearly not the focus of the class, sneak attack damage at a decreased rate – every 3 levels starting at 4th.

Fallen paladins get extra goodies depending on how hard they fall (how many levels of paladin they had). They can smite more good, continue laying on their hands, better sneak attacking, 1/day summon monster ONE, and with 9 or more paladin levels – an undead companion. The undead companion is one of the most interesting aspects of the blackguard. It has the same specials as the fiendish servant but is a skeleton or zombie that can't be rebuked

As for the Fiendish servant, he can have a bat, cat, dire rat, horse, pony, raven, or toad. It is similar to a familiar and can have its uses, but I don't see this as a selling point for taking 5 levels in the class. The fiendish servant is the last ability for the blackguard and it comes at level 5. Obviously, this means there is no capstone for the class and having so little after level 5 makes it almost seem like 5 dead levels. 6+ is just increases the relatively poor spellcasting, fiendish servant power, +2d6 sneak attack, and 1 more smite good/day.

-1 for pretending to be a spellcaster
-1 for weaker versions of “good-aligned” stuff (detect good, smite)
-1 for weak undead rebuking (just be evil cleric...)
-4 for combined dead levels and spreading out abilities over 10 levels that should really have been 5 levels
7 / 14

2)
Paladin and Cleric seem like the way to go with blackguard. However, the Hide 5 ranks means they have to wait until level 8 to enter because of cross class skill ranks. Taking one level of rogue can make it in at level 7 for paladin, though. Straight cleric would have to wait until 9 because of the BAB requirement. Nothing seems really great here. Fighters, monks, and rogues have similar gates. I will stick with cleric and paladin, as they seem the most likely candidates.

Paladin 9 means you receive the undead companion. This is a decent substitute for the paladin mount, but splats have pretty solid choices for special mounts. The skeleton or zombie you receive don't quite live up to your paladin mount. You lose the forgettable remove disease, divine health, and turn undead (although this is eventually replaced). You lose the rest, but they are replaced by the blackguard versions. It is worth mentioning that your spellcasting has to reset from crappy 2nd level spells to crappy 1st level spells. The chassis is the same, though. The opposite-alignment means you are playing a very different character with the transition; however, I do think you would be better off just sticking with paladin. Not only do you have better spellcasting immediately, but you have the special mount.

The cleric entry is similar, except you won't obtain the undead companion. You also have to wait until level 9. The main things you lose from cleric entry is your turn undead progression and, more notably, your spellcasting. Considering Cleric-zilla is a thing, I can't help but think that being a paragon of evil would be easier and more satisfying just sticking with cleric than going blackguard. Blackguard isn't the sneakiest, but if you want to be an evil sneak attacker, you could just take some rogue levels instead. I think cleric is clearly better for this character than blackguard.

1 / 4

3)
In case you haven't been reading along, this should be easy. Entry is awkward, at best, with these jumbled prerequisites. BAB +6 means you won't be entering early and Hide ranks generally don't go well with full BAB. This doesn't even bring up the fact that you need 3 feats, one of which is Improved Sunder. Generally, people don't like sundering because it means breaking loot. This concept doesn't bother me, and I actually like sunder. However, I have yet to see a player use it over all the years I've played, so that really speaks to me. The special req seems fine, as you don't have to summon an evil outsider. Someone else can, so that is straightforward. The combination of BAB and skills alone is rough, but the feat tax just makes it even worse. Nothing about the class utilizes the sunder, so why is it there? 0 / 2

Blackguard 8 / 20

[Troacctid]

I would personally go for fighter entry. I'm surprised you thought of cleric—it doesn't seem to synergize particularly well AFAICT, and without full BAB it can't even enter the class on time.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

One thing that bears mentioning is how fallen paladins can trade in Paladin levels for Blackguard levels. That makes entry into BG an attractive prospect for fallen Paladins of 11+ levels, as they can instantly dump their useless Paladin features for full levels in the moderately useful Blackguard.

[Mike Miller]

I would personally go for fighter entry. I'm surprised you thought of cleric—it doesn't seem to synergize particularly well AFAICT, and without full BAB it can't even enter the class on time.

I mentioned fighter but fighter also lacks hide so it isn't much better. I went with cleric because it can fill that role: evil, deals with undead, divine casting. I know fighter can hit the feats easier, but fighter doesn't have the feel. I went through 6+ splats before I gave up on a better fit. I considered hexblade, but it seemed worse than fighter.

One thing that bears mentioning is how fallen paladins can trade in Paladin levels for Blackguard levels. That makes entry into BG an attractive prospect for fallen Paladins of 11+ levels, as they can instantly dump their useless Paladin features for full levels in the moderately useful Blackguard.

I did mention those levels, but they are buried in the middle somewhere. I think those levels make for the best reason to enter as paladin. However, I think you are better off with paladin levels.

[Troacctid]

I mentioned fighter but fighter also lacks hide so it isn't much better. I went with cleric because it can fill that role: evil, deals with undead, divine casting. I know fighter can hit the feats easier, but fighter doesn't have the feel. I went through 6+ splats before I gave up on a better fit. I considered hexblade, but it seemed worse than fighter.

There's a fighter bonus feat that gives Hide as a class skill.

[Mike Miller]

There's a fighter bonus feat that gives Hide as a class skill.

Well, that makes fighter an easy entry!

[liquidformat]

The hide requirement has always bugged me with the blackguard, it just makes no sense from the theme of the blackguard...

There's a fighter bonus feat that gives Hide as a class skill.

What Feat? I know Guerilla Warrior lets you only pay 1 skill point for hide and move silently but I wasn't aware of one that gave either as a class skill...

On a side note straight Cleric can enter Blackguard at level 8 as long as they have trickery domain which gives Bluff, Disguise, and Hide to skill list.

Finally two comments, from my understanding and the way my DMs have played it a level 11 fallen paladin can become a paladin 1/blackguard 10 which actually is better all around than a paladin 11 except for maybe special mount.

Also in power gaming groups I have also had DMs letting you abuse the 'fallen paladin' entry bonuses while entering as a paladin of slaughter/tyranny, though I haven't ever seen a good RAW or RAI argument for that it is amusing at least.

[Mike Miller]

The hide requirement has always bugged me with the blackguard, it just makes no sense from the theme of the blackguard...



What Feat? I know Guerilla Warrior lets you only pay 1 skill point for hide and move silently but I wasn't aware of one that gave either as a class skill...

On a side note straight Cleric can enter Blackguard at level 8 as long as they have trickery domain which gives Bluff, Disguise, and Hide to skill list.

Finally two comments, from my understanding and the way my DMs have played it a level 11 fallen paladin can become a paladin 1/blackguard 10 which actually is better all around than a paladin 11 except for maybe special mount.

Also in power gaming groups I have also had DMs letting you abuse the 'fallen paladin' entry bonuses while entering as a paladin of slaughter/tyranny, though I haven't ever seen a good RAW or RAI argument for that it is amusing at least.

I don't think it works like that, but replacing the 10 paladin levels with blackguard levels sounds good to me. Maybe I need to reread it

[liquidformat]

I don't think it works like that, but replacing the 10 paladin levels with blackguard levels sounds good to me. Maybe I need to reread it

So The fact that it expressly says that when trading your 'fallen paladin' levels for blackguard levels you loose all benefits of being a 'fallen paladin' seems to me to be vary strong RAW and RAI support that at fallen paladin level 11 I can become fallen paladin 1/blackguard 10 or at worst fallen paladin 2/blackguard 10 at level twelve...

Blackguard[/URL]]
11 or more:
A fallen paladin of this stature immediately gains a blackguard level for each level of paladin he trades in.

The character level of the character does not change. With the loss of paladin levels, the character no longer gains as many extra abilities for being a fallen paladin.

[Mike Miller]

So The fact that it expressly says that when trading your 'fallen paladin' levels for blackguard levels you loose all benefits of being a 'fallen paladin' seems to me to be vary strong RAW and RAI support that at fallen paladin level 11 I can become fallen paladin 1/blackguard 10 or at worst fallen paladin 2/blackguard 10 at level twelve...

Cool. I must have missed that part. What to do after blackguard, though? It seems like they should have just made blackguard a base class at that point.

[liquidformat]

Cool. I must have missed that part. What to do after blackguard, though? It seems like they should have just made blackguard a base class at that point.

I always look at doing a prc with its own native casting after like divine crusader maybe or just go ToB Crusader?

[Troacctid]

I still don't get the cleric entry. It just doesn't seem to have any synergy at all.

What Feat? I know Guerilla Warrior lets you only pay 1 skill point for hide and move silently but I wasn't aware of one that gave either as a class skill...

Martial Study (Shadow Hand). And it's a legit good feat to boot—shadow blade technique, cloak of deception, and shadow jaunt are all learnable with it, and they're great (cloak of deception is especially synergistic with the blackguard's sneak attack), plus it opens you up to Martial Stance later for assassin's stance or island of blades.

Cool. I must have missed that part. What to do after blackguard, though? It seems like they should have just made blackguard a base class at that point.

Traditionally, you combine it with shadowbane inquisitor. If you don't go that route, then warblade or crusader would be my pick, but I could also see divine crusader, duskblade, dragon disciple, legacy champion, or even mystic.

[Mike Miller]

I still don't get the cleric entry. It just doesn't seem to have any synergy at all.

It is from an avatar of evil standpoint. I don't really see synergy anywhere other than paladin. The class is a hodgepodge of garbage. Bad abilities, bad sneak attack, bad spellcasting... Just pick one of those and make it unique. That would have been far better.

I see the "synergy" of cleric as more of an expansion of its evil deeds.

[Troacctid]

It is from an avatar of evil standpoint. I don't really see synergy anywhere other than paladin. The class is a hodgepodge of garbage. Bad abilities, bad sneak attack, bad spellcasting... Just pick one of those and make it unique. That would have been far better.

I see the "synergy" of cleric as more of an expansion of its evil deeds.

If you want "Avatar of Evil" then wouldn't incarnate or soulborn be the more natural choice? Almost any character can be evil, and cleric is actively anti-synergistic with blackguard.

I mean, let's be fair here. You know what else is a hodgepodge of garbage? Most of the low-tier warrior classes beyond 2nd level or so. For them, blackguard offers accelerated paladin spellcasting on top of other combat-relevant abilities and a strong chassis. If you're a barbarian, don't tell me you'd rather have DR 3, greater rage, and improved trap sense than 4th level divine spells, 3d6 sneak attack, and Cha to saves. If you're a knight, blackguard is competing with a bad frightful presence knockoff, a couple save rerolls, and a mediocre bonus feat. Isn't that what the opportunity cost section is supposed to be about? I bet if you scored cleric as the expected entry for assassin, it would've gotten a zero too.

[Saintheart]

In terms of entry paths, is it worth noting that variant paladins might be worth consideration for entry to blackguard?

I'd guess there's an argument about whether a variant paladin is a paladin for the purposes of blackguard's prerequisites (and note there that the SRD itself says these are alignment-altered paladins, not separate classes, i.e. the SRD sure seems to presume variant paladins are paladins). If so, a Paladin of Slaughter or a Paladin of Tyranny both march into blackguard without having to forego any of their abilities gathered to that point. In some respects (Smite Good, spellcasting) it gives them more of the same.

And then there's the Paladin of Heisenberg's Cheese possibility: if one argues that the Variant Paladin never has to fall but still satisfies all the requirements of the Blackguard to use their variant Paladin levels to pick up more abilities.

The wording for Blackguard is as follows:

Fallen Paladins
Blackguards who have levels in the paladin class (that is to say, are now ex-paladins) gain extra abilities the more levels of paladin they have.

A fallen paladin who becomes a blackguard gains all of the following abilities that apply, according to the number of paladin levels the character has.

A Paladin of Tyranny going into Blackguard has levels in the paladin class. If we ignore the parenthesis, he never needs to fall, but he picks up the abilities that fallen paladins get because these are keyed only to the number of paladin levels he has. So the Paladin of Tyranny keeps all his Paladin of Tyranny abilities, gains the Fallen Paladin's abilities, and picks up the Blackguard's abilities.

If we can't ignore the parenthesis, there is still opportunity for mischief: our Heisenberg's Cheese Paladin takes his first level in standard, lawful good paladin, and then falls. He then goes into Paladin of Tyranny, and thence to Blackguard. He meets all the RAW requirements to pick up fallen paladin abilities:
(1) He has levels in the paladin class
(2) He is an ex-paladin
(3) He gains abilities "according to the number of paladin levels the character has" ... i.e. both the LG paladin and the Paladin of Tyranny levels.

The only way this is stopped is if, per the SRD, the DM designates the Fallen Paladin levels as referring only to the default paladin. This is not automatic; in the variant classes section itself it says...

The three paladin variants presented here demonstrate examples of alternative-alignment paladins. Each one follows a specific code of conduct tailored to its specific alignment. The paladin of freedom is chaotic good, dedicated to liberty and free thought. The paladin of tyranny is the opposite, a lawful evil villain bent on dominating those weaker than she. The paladin of slaughter is a brutal champion of chaos and evil who leaves only destruction trailing in his wake. (If you use these versions of the paladin class, you might consider designating the standard paladin as the "paladin of honor" to differentiate it from the variants.)

Therefore, not automatic. Until the DM designates the standard paladin as a paladin of honour and rules the fallen paladin rules in the Blackguard entry apply only to a paladin of honour, there is a RAW argument that the levels may be freely taken from any of the paladin variants - because they're all paladins, and the number of abilities keys off the number of paladin levels.



EDIT: And when it comes to an actual rating of the PrC:

The main problem I see with the Blackguard is that it commits the one cardinal sin that 3.5 punishes: it tries to do several things at once but doesn't do any of them as well as a specialist, and the problem is that the several things it puts together don't synergise particularly well. The base casting isn't all that bad if you're a fighter meaning to just smash things: Summon Monster isn't at all bad if you pick right (Rashemi Elemental Summoning) and you can use the monster for flanking to use that sneak attack, but I agree the problem is that you get good stuff way too late and there's far too many dead levels in there. No dissent from Mike's rating of 7/14 here.

I don't see the opportunity cost as completely catastrophic if your entry path is martial-oriented. Cleave is dumb and Improved Sunder is dumber, but Power Attack is almost de rigeur for fighters. And if you can qualify via Variant Paladin, I think the opportunity cost is much less, if only because those variant paladins aren't too strong in the teens levels anyway and Blackguard gives you more toys on-theme with your class. 1/4 for that reason, maybe a 2/4 if you can cheese your way to a combination of Ex-Paladin, Paladin of Tyranny, and Blackguard. You'd be daft to go anywhere near this thing with a cleric or rogue.

The prerequisites don't strike me as hideously bad, I think it's more about what those prerequisites mean for you given what you get out of the class. The BAB +6 is one level higher than a standard low entry, but that's not hugely destructive. Yes, you have to pick up Hide, but the skill ranks at least are low and so don't heavily detract from your other uses of skill points as such. Those three feats make it painful, though, even for a fighter based entry, but at least one of them is Power Attack. 1/2.

So my total would be 9/20, subject to how lenient a DM would be around variant paladins.

[Kalkra]

Averaged Ratings:

Arcane Archer: 7.33 / 20

Arcane Trickster: 11 / 20

Archmage: 10.33 / 20

Assassin: 14.67 / 20

Maybe put links to those posts?

[liquidformat]

Traditionally, you combine it with shadowbane inquisitor.

How Is Shadowbane Inquisitor the traditional combination? You have to be LG for that PRC; If Bone Knight had native casting instead of increased casting it would be a great follow up PRC, and Black Flame Zealot could be interesting, maybe A level of Divine Crusader then Bone Knight or Black Flame Zealot?

Also I think the fact that Paladin 1/Blackguard 10 is valid at level 11 9/20 is a reasonable score.

[Mike Miller]

If you want "Avatar of Evil" then wouldn't incarnate or soulborn be the more natural choice? Almost any character can be evil, and cleric is actively anti-synergistic with blackguard.

I mean, let's be fair here. You know what else is a hodgepodge of garbage? Most of the low-tier warrior classes beyond 2nd level or so. For them, blackguard offers accelerated paladin spellcasting on top of other combat-relevant abilities and a strong chassis. If you're a barbarian, don't tell me you'd rather have DR 3, greater rage, and improved trap sense than 4th level divine spells, 3d6 sneak attack, and Cha to saves. If you're a knight, blackguard is competing with a bad frightful presence knockoff, a couple save rerolls, and a mediocre bonus feat. Isn't that what the opportunity cost section is supposed to be about? I bet if you scored cleric as the expected entry for assassin, it would've gotten a zero too.

I admit that my bias against blackguard probably clouded my judgement. Having said that, I probably would only return 1 point to it's Section 2 score upon reflection. I will update my section later in the week.

@Kalkra: I can link the scores at some point.

@Saintheart: I think it would be nice to let paladin variants in, but that is probably at a DM level.