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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Troacctid's Avatar

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    How Is Shadowbane Inquisitor the traditional combination? You have to be LG for that PRC; If Bone Knight had native casting instead of increased casting it would be a great follow up PRC, and Black Flame Zealot could be interesting, maybe A level of Divine Crusader then Bone Knight or Black Flame Zealot?
    Shadowbane inquisitor levels count as fallen paladin levels for blackguard, but you don't lose your class abilities from it when you fall.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Shadowbane inquisitor levels count as fallen paladin levels for blackguard, but you don't lose your class abilities from it when you fall.
    Hum, never looked at the fallen inquisitor stuff interesting, that actually seems to suggest you can fall from LG as a Shadowbane inquisitor but continue to gain levels as a Shadowbane inquisitor, am I reading that right?

    That actually makes Blackguard quite interesting, if you build a paladin10/Shadowbane Inquisitor 1 that falls you then become Blackguard 10/Shadowbane Inquisitor 1
    Last edited by liquidformat; 2019-11-19 at 02:38 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Dragon Disciple
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    1)
    The Dragon Disciple is toted as a martial class that has dabbled in the arcane. Unfortunately, it has 3 / 4 BAB. It does have good FORT and WILL saves, as well as a d12 HD, though. The abilities the DD gains are dragon-esque in nature. Over time the class gains natural armor, ability boosts, extra natural attacks, a rather poor breath weapon with a 1/day limit, wings, and blindsense. The capstone is the half-dragon template. There is some debate about whether you gain the template on top of the previous gains, or if it is just the completed template utilizing what you already have. Hopefully it is on top of what you gained, because there isn't much going for this class. Other than blindsense out to 30 feet, nothing is noteworthy. The paltry amount of bonus spells and wings at 9th level are not a worthwhile investment. Nearly everything this class offers can be replaced by items and / or spells. This is more of a template broken up over 10 levels than a PrC. 4 / 14

    2)
    Desired entry is a little odd with DD. You need casting, but you aren't really interested in advancing your casting. You gain bonus spells, but you will be so far behind on caster level and spell level that it likely won't matter unless you are taking utility spells. The knowledge (arcana) requirement means that the example classes of barbarian, fighter, and ranger don't make a whole lot of sense. Considering what this class is, I don't think the entry actually matters. No matter what, you are going to be worse off for taking this class. If you take primarily martial levels with a small number of caster levels for the skill ranks, you are losing BAB and actual class features. If you stick with a casting class, you are losing all casting progression (unless you want to count the 7 bonus spells known over the 10 levels). Just let your player obtain the half-dragon template instead. 0 / 4

    3)
    The prerequisites aren't bad in and of themselves: a single skill rank 8, a language, nondragon, and spontaneous casting ability (not even “Cast level X spells”). What makes these prereqs bad is the fact that they don't lend themselves to a useful build for what the PrC is. I'll go with “medium,” but I think I'm being generous. 1 / 2

    Dragon Disciple 5 / 20
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    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
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    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Good grief, this PrC is bad. About the only use I can even see as making it anywhere remotely interesting depends on extreme cheese by picking an obscure dragon type as your ancestor (which the table of breath weapons implies can be used) in order to pick up a Prismatic Spray casting once per day or a once per day [force] breath weapon and eventually immunity to force damage of all kinds, but even the damn half-dragon template with its stinging LA +3 from first level is superior to this.

    I'm harder on it than Mike by one, and that's because I think the abilities are 3/14, not 4. 4/20 from me.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    It's telling that as a wee child who knew absolutely nothing about optimization and thought that the total number of levels you got was 100 instead of 20... I still didn't think Dragon Disciple was worth 10 of them. (I was going to go Ranger 98/ Sorcerer 2).
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    It's telling that as a wee child who knew absolutely nothing about optimization and thought that the total number of levels you got was 100 instead of 20... I still didn't think Dragon Disciple was worth 10 of them. (I was going to go Ranger 98/ Sorcerer 2).
    Ouch. Even at 100 levels it isn't worth it. That is possibly my favorite explanation of how bad a bad prestige class can be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    DMG 3.5e page 41:
    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Dwarven Defender
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    1)
    As mentioned upthread, I don't put a lot of mental weight into race or alignment. I'll be focusing on the “Defender” part of this PrC instead of the “Dwarven” part. For what it's worth, I've actually used this class specifically for non-dwarves in a campaign once. Anyway, the Defender gets full BAB, the coveted d12 HD, and both good FORT and good WILL saves. Good WILL is unusual for a martial, so that is nice. Two skill points per level is typical of fighter types, though. Of particular note are the weapon and armor proficiencies, which PrCs don't typically grant: all simple and martial, as well as all armors and shields!

    The slow-scaling AC dodge bonus is better than nothing, but it certainly isn't amazing. It provides a grand total of +4 to AC over the full course of the PrC. The DR#/- is more useful and possibly the highest non-bypassed DR granted by any PrC, capping at 6/-. Trap Sense feels like filler, but it is better than a dead level. Uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge are better than normal for the Defender, as moving will not be a strong point for the character. Specifically, this means the Defender will likely be surrounded.

    The Defensive Stance is the namesake ability of the class. At first, the changes to your abilities look really good! Too bad they don't scale with class levels. You gain a boost to STR, CON, all saves, and AC. However, you can't move or use skills or abilities that require a shift in position. Hopefully this is mostly flufff and not enforced by the DM to mean you can't attack an enemy who moves behind you. There are no facing rules, but it is hard to imagine attacking an opponent on either side of you without a “shift in position.” Cruel DMs aside, this also means you arguably won't b edoing things like Balance checks or Deflect Arrows, etc. This may fall into “Cruel DM” territory again, but it seems like the argument for not being able to make REF saves fits the fluff. It is another case of the writers' fluff interfering with the perception of mechanics.

    Anyway, the biggest downfall of your boost is the fact that you can't move. You obtain this ability at the first level of the class and you don't gain Mobile Defense until eighth level. So you have 7 levels of standing stationary in your stance, hoping the enemy has a reason to engage you instead of calmly walking around you. When you do gain Mobile Defense, it only allows you to move a single 5 foot step. That is quite the slow-speed chase.

    The chassis seems really decent for a martial, but the main ability of the class is terrible. If the boost from Defensive Stance improved over time and movement both increased sooner and beyond a 5 foot step, maybe it would be good. As written, the primary reason to take the higher levels of the class seems to just be the DR #/-, which really isn't a great reason. Mobile Defense is not compensation for the lack of useful abilities over those 7 levels.

    -4 for Defensive Stance being both a trap option and the namesake ability, not scaling, and possibly hindering you even more than the increase to your stats boosts you
    -3 for the lack of real class features for 6 out of 10 levels
    7 / 14

    2)
    How about those opportunity costs? The fighter seems like a straightforward entry method. I also like the idea of a paladin or crusader taking on the Defender. Once I mention initiators, I start wondering about the “no shift in position” aspect of the Defensive Stance, though. Initiating maneuvers requires movement, which sounds as though they wouldn't be able to utilize their class features until they gain Mobile Defense, if at all in the stance. I will take the position that a lenient DM is allowing maneuvers while in the Defensive Stance that don't directly involve moving.

    The Defender has a better HD than the fighter, paladin, and crusader as well as better WILL saves. It has worse skill selection than all of them and less per level than the crusader. Obviously you are missing out on the fighter bonus feats for the Defender levels, so the question is: are fighter feats better than Defender class features? You don't gain uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, or damage reduction as fighter bonus feats. However, there are all kinds of fun stuff that you can do with fighter feats that make for a more enjoyable experience, such as battle maneuvers (e.g. trip, not ToB maneuvers). You can also increase your power with Power Attack and the like. I actually like the Defender, but Defensive Stance is too impractical. I think the fighter is better off despite a slightly worse chassis, just for the feats.

    The paladin would be losing out on spells. By 8th level, the paladin already has all the unique class features it will have. However, you will never see 4th level spells with those Defender levels. I definitely think your paladin spells are more useful than your Defenseive Stance and company. This doesn't even begin the comparison of standing still vs. having an awesome mount. Paladin wins this one.

    Crusader primarily loses maneuver progression but also misses mettle. At 20th level you could still pick up Die Hard from crusader if you really wanted it. At least those levels count towards you rintiator level such that you would be eligible for 7th level maneuvers once Defender is complete. However, this also means you only just reach 8th level maneuvers at level 20. The crusader's steely resolve also caps out at a lower value, which means less damage. I definitely think you would be better off as a tank with crusader maneuvers than with Defensive Stance. Crusader is frequently noted as the most straightforward tank out-of-the-box and so Crusader wins that contest.

    It doesn't look good for the Defender. Maybe a one level dip for a tight-quarters standoff occasionally? Perhaps two if you desire uncanny dodge for some reason? It definitely isn't going to be worthwhile for 10 levels. The chassis alone doesn't support tanking and there are other, better ways to accomplish the Defender's goals. 0 / 4

    3)
    This one is somewhat of a tough call for me. The class has a relatively high BAB requirement of +7. That isn't great, but it isn't the main issue, either. There are three feat prerequisites. Arguably, all are feat taxes. Maybe if one was poor and two useful, it wouldn't be so bad. However, we are talking abou tdodge, endurance, and toughness. Not only will you be mid level when you enter this, but you'll blow three feats on those? I suppose I will go with “major” reqs for now. I could see the argument for “medium,” since any class can grab the feats and BAB; however, the sheer uselessness of those feats is too much for me. 0 / 2

    Dwarven Defender 7 / 20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    DMG 3.5e page 41:
    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    As we discussed on the podcast, I still feel that there's SOMETHING that can be made with the Dwarf Defender, possibly by mixing the stone dragon PrC into it. Also as bad as this class is for PCs, you neglected to mention how AMAZING it is for an NPC, particularly an elite guard shielding a specific area or with a chokepoint to hold.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantasyPen View Post
    As we discussed on the podcast, I still feel that there's SOMETHING that can be made with the Dwarf Defender, possibly by mixing the stone dragon PrC into it. Also as bad as this class is for PCs, you neglected to mention how AMAZING it is for an NPC, particularly an elite guard shielding a specific area or with a chokepoint to hold.
    I am focusing on PC usage, but even as an NPC... The players can just walk around. It would have to be a 5ft hall with no magical means to bypass the defender. Also, the PCs could notice the DD isn't moving and just wait him out. Then he will lose the bonuses and have no backup abilities. There could be a specific situation where it is good, but it would be a niche application, for sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    DMG 3.5e page 41:
    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Broadly speaking agree with the assessment bar one interesting point, which is the racial issue.

    Really I'd say that while the Defender is pretty subpar for a PC who'll have to wander around the landscape, it is certainly on theme with the fluff of dwarves as stubborn little buggers who'll stand and die in their tunnels and who really don't like goblins or giants. Dwarven Defender is really Dwarven Guard turned up to 11, which isn't good for PC, but as said, makes for a pretty easy way to build a dwarven NPC opponent.

    If my test is whether becoming dwarven and going into Defender makes up for the lost feat slot and skill point as a result of not being able to play a human, then on this one I do think provided you are playing a very specific type of campaign and against very specific types of opposition it is worth it. That campaign would be one based in a lot of narrow underground passages against goblinoid or giant opposition and where you're planning on playing a default martial type, or maybe a martial type who has a good way of getting reach and a decent number of AoOs.

    The dwarf race gives a grab bag of saving throws which are handy at least at lower levels: +2 to saves against spells and spell-likes is nothing to sniff at, and you pick up some nice weapon familiarities and darkvision. I'd call that even with not playing human, especially if the campaign is underground dungeoncrawl as said.

    And Dwarven has one element that at least plays into the Dwarven Defender: dwarves get a +4 against bull rushes or trip while in place, which is a handy modifier to have since the Defender's main ability is conditioned on them not being moved. This is not saying that Defensive Stance is some sort of great ability or anything, but at least the race you enter from enhances or makes it easier to maintain.

    It doesn't make a huge difference, but I think it raises the prerequisite score slightly. Thus, for me, 7.5/20.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Duelist
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    1)
    Ah, the Duelist- the class that isn't allowed to wear armor and yet is pictured in the DMG with leather armor... I always forget the duelist has full BAB and d10 HD. It has one good save: REF, 4 skills points per level, and some useful active skills.

    To set the tone of the class, we have Canny Defense, not to be confused with Uncanny Defense. This version is a poorly worded and confusing INT bonus to AC, if any. If you have a positive modifier for your INT score, it is added to your DEX bonus to AC, but only up to the cap of your current Duelist class level. I can appreciate the caution here to prevent a one-level dip to grab INT to AC, but the writers didn't retain that caution for other stat-to-stat bonuses. Additionally, you need to be wearing no armor and no shield. So much lost potential already. -3 for losing out on armor and shields to gain a pathetic replacement

    Improved Reaction is a flat bonus to initiative. It explicitly stacks with improved initiative and the bonus increases at 8th level. Enhanced Mobility is an AC bonus for leaving threatened squares, which is generally going to be negated by tumble at this level already. Both this and Grace require no armor or shield. Grace is a flat bonus to REF saves. This bonus is notably lower than MiC armor enchants. -1 for more pretend armor replacements and boosts that are easily replaced with enchants

    Precise Strike is so bad. First, it is precision damage and we all know the limitations there. Second, it only works with a light or one-handed piercing weapon while the other hand does not have a weapon or shield. Third, you are possibly gaining this 1d6 damage boost at level 11. It becomes 2d6 5 levels later. That is a terrible damage increase for the level, especially on top of the restrictions. -3 for hamstringing the character, barely adding damage, and doing a bad job at pretending this doesn't amount to two dead levels

    Acrobatic Charge is decent if you have somehow found a way to actually survive in melee. It allows you to charge through difficult terrain. Elaborate Parry adds a dodge bonus to AC equal to class level for fighting defensively and full defense. I can probably add up the number of times I've seen those used on one hand. Still, AC is AC.

    Deflect arrows is the final unique ability and it comes at the 9th level of the class. This means you are somewhere around level 15. If you have to rely on deflecting a single arrow per round to survive, you have probably done something terribly wrong. -1 for giving a mediocre ability in the late game as a half-attempt at preventing a dead level. Also, what part of a duel involves having someone fire arrows at them? This doesn't fit the archetype at all.

    6 / 14

    2)
    I would go in-depth here, but the class is bad. There is no chance of it being anything but lost opportunity. Go to Complete Warrior, find the Swashbuckler, and take levels of that if you really want to play a duelist for some reason. 0 / 4

    3)
    This feels straightforward to me. There is one feat that is likely to be desired for the build: weapon finesse. Then, there are two feats that are of questionable use: dodge and mobility. Two low point skill ranks are easy to fill in time and BAB 6. I think this is a simple choice of “medium” requirements. Three feats are no joke, but at least one is likely to be selected and the rest falls into place. 1 / 2

    Duelist 7 / 20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    DMG 3.5e page 41:
    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    Precise Strike is so bad. First, it is precision damage and we all know the limitations there. Second, it only works with a light or one-handed piercing weapon while the other hand does not have a weapon or shield. Third, you are possibly gaining this 1d6 damage boost at level 11. It becomes 2d6 5 levels later. That is a terrible damage increase for the level, especially on top of the restrictions. -3 for hamstringing the character, barely adding damage, and doing a bad job at pretending this doesn't amount to two dead levels
    You can have a defending weapon in the other hand. You just can't attack with it.
    Last edited by Kalkra; 2019-12-01 at 11:46 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalkra View Post
    You can have a defending weapon in the other hand. You just can't attack with it.
    The ability specifically says you can't have a weapon in hand. The point of the class is that you are a fencer. So, your offhand is supposed to be empty. For some reason, they didn't say empty. They said no weapon and no shield. So you could have a book, a rod, etc... not a defending weapon, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    DMG 3.5e page 41:
    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Devil

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    The ability specifically says you can't have a weapon in hand. The point of the class is that you are a fencer. So, your offhand is supposed to be empty. For some reason, they didn't say empty. They said no weapon and no shield. So you could have a book, a rod, etc... not a defending weapon, though.
    From the SRD

    Precise Strike (Ex)

    At 5th level, a duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, gaining an extra 1d6 damage added to her normal damage roll.

    When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield.
    Unless you and I have different texts, this seems pretty clear. You can hold a weapon in your other hand, just not attack with it.

    EDIT: Ohhh, I get it. You're reading it as "the duelist can't attack while having a weapon in her other hand" and I'm reading it as "the duelist can't attack using a weapon in her other hand". Classic semantic ambiguity. Groucho Marx would have a field day. Anyway, I would consider my version to flow better in the paragraph, but I can see it both ways.
    Last edited by Kalkra; 2019-12-01 at 11:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalkra View Post
    Unless you and I have different texts, this seems pretty clear. You can hold a weapon in your other hand, just not attack with it.

    EDIT: Ohhh, I get it. You're reading it as "the duelist can't attack while having a weapon in her other hand" and I'm reading it as "the duelist can't attack using a weapon in her other hand". Classic semantic ambiguity. Groucho Marx would have a field day. Anyway, I would consider my version to flow better in the paragraph, but I can see it both ways.
    Hmmm, yes I can see it your way as well. That didn't occur to me originally. It is rather ambiguous. It probably was intended to be read the way you understood it, but it definitely could have been clarified.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    DMG 3.5e page 41:
    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Eldritch Knight
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    1)
    This is a gish, as the name implies. Let's see how well it holds up. Full BAB, only good save is FORT, and d6 HD. That isn't as much HP as desired and the only class feature is a fighter bonus feat. Otherwise, the class is a 9 / 10 casting progression class. This makes it rather difficult to rate, as there isn't anything of substance. It almost feels like they started a class, but the computer crashed while they were brainstorming so they gave up instead of rewriting it. I suppose a bonus feat is generally good and casting progression is generally good. If you want to hit things and cast spells, you'll be able to do that with EK. 6 / 14 just because it is capable of doing what you'd expect, despite its lack of actual class features

    2)
    There isn't too much point in comparing specific builds here, because they all end up the same way. Fighter/Wizard, Initiator/Wu Jen, Barbarian/Sorcerer, etc. The lack of class features means you are losing out on the class features of the base classes and the lost casting progression involved from the first level of EK means you are down a caster level. I think EK is probably best as a filler for other PrCs, as long as you can accept that first level's missing casting progression. 2 / 4

    3)
    The only prereqs are proficiency with all martial weapons and casting 3rd level arcane spells. Many classes fill these reqs so I am tempted to say “minor” for EK. You basically only need 1 level of a martial class and 5 or 6 levels of a full caster. Considering the open-ended nature of the reqs, I am satisfied with “minor.” 2 / 2

    Eldritch Knight 10 / 20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    DMG 3.5e page 41:
    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Hierophant
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    1)
    The hierophant is basically the cleric equivalent of the archmage. It isn't an exact divine copy, but it has some similarities. The hierophant has a d8 HD which is nice, half BAB, good FORT and WILL saves, 2 skill points per level with similar choices to cleric, and the probably downside of not advancing casting yet still advancing CL. That last point is what really holds the class back from being more commonly taken. -3 points for being a high level caster PrC that neuters its main progression path

    Just as the archmage had high arcana each level, the hierophant has a special ability each level. These do not permanently burn spell slots the way they did with archmage, though.

    The first such ability, Blast Infidel, maximizes damage from spells that involve inflicting or channeling negative energy onto a creature of opposed alignment. It is very specific and probably not all that useful. Unless you are guaranteed to be facing lots of foes in opposition to your alignment, this is a trap. -1 for being too niche

    Divine Reach allows the hierophant to use touch attack spells as ranged touch attack spells up to 30 ft away. Take it again and it goes to 60 ft. There are plenty of touch range divine spells to make this ability worthwhile.

    Faith Healing is similar to Blast Infidel in the sense that it is alignment oriented. Healing spells are maximized for targets with the same alignment as the caster. Unless your party wholly consists of one alignment, this probably won't see much use. However, if the entire party [i]IS[/is] one alignment, it maxes all healing spells incredibly more efficient and worthwhile. -1 for being unlikely to see usage

    Gift of the Divine allows cleric-based hierophants to share Turn Undead uses. This could fuel feats and abilities that require expending Turn Undead uses for allies, which is definitely helpful.

    Mastery of Energy adds a bonus to turning checks and damage against undead. It can be useful in an undead heavy campaign, but you will probably still have better actions at level 14+ than trying to turn the undead.

    Metamagic feat is a decent option. You just pick a metamagic feat instead of a new ability. Cool.

    Power of Nature applies only to druid-based hierophants. The hierophant can give away one or more of his druid class features to a willing creature temporarily. This can be anything except spellcasting or the animal companion. This is quite an interesting ability. Wild shape is the obvious choice to pass off.

    Spell Power increases a hierophant's CL by 1. Losing spell progression for an extra CL is a bad trade. -1 for a trap option

    Spell-like ability allows the hierophant to lose a spell slot permanently to instead always have a spell prepared as a spell-like ability twice per day. This definitely has its uses and it has the notable benefit of only costing one spell slot instead of two as the archmage.

    8 / 14

    2)
    Cleric is the obvious choice for hierophant and almost certainly the intended one. Although there is a druid ability listed, druids don't have knowledge (religion) as a class skill. I wonder what the writer's intent was with the druid entry or if they just forgot that druids don't have knowledge (religion). Shugenja would also have easy access to hierophant. Neither cleric nor shugenja have class features beyond level 1, so they aren't losing out on that front by taking hierophant levels. However, being full divine casters means losing spell progression and that does hurt. There are definitely useful abilities in the hierophant's list. I think it comes down to how far are you willing to delay your spell progression. Is a level of progression worth a metamagic feat? Is it worth turning a spell into a SLAx2/day? I wouldn't expect all five levels, but a level or two could be worth it despite the lost spell progression. 2 / 4

    3)
    This is another clear case of “major” prereqs. Needing seventh level divine spells means you must be a full divine caster (or the rare fast casting PrC maybe). Additionally, a skill rank of 15 limits your options. At least the feat req is simple: any metamagic. Still, saying 13 levels of a full divine caster demands a high level entry. 0 / 2

    Hierophant 10 / 20
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    I think there's a couple of RAW loopholes that might be exploitable with the right build and the right DM.

    First, while some of the abilities contain the explicit text that they can be picked more than once, none say that they can't be chosen multiple times. So that's five feats in five levels for you, not too damn bad at all at high levels.

    Second, there is no text in the PrC that says that you have to otherwise meet the prerequisites of the feat you take in substitution for a special ability. There are certainly class features and text out there that does specify this for some granted abilities. Hierophant explicitly tells us you choose a metamagic feat in place of one of the special abilities. So the argument is that it's not a feat as such, it's a flat-out special ability you have and thus -- at least by RAW -- that feat doesn't have prereqs.

    That's a nice saving given you're likely to be a cleric. Divine Metamagic normally forces you to take the ordinary version of the feat first, and Persistent Spell in particular has a prerequisite of Extend Spell. If you're starting your campaign in the mid to high teens, you could build all your other feat slots below level 12 or so into more interesting stuff ... or even just pump yourself up with more Extra Turning feats ... and then slam into Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) right from level 1 Hierophant and start tearing up the city. Okay, you might not be casting 9th level spells before the end of the campaign, but two saved feat slots in a casting progression might actually be worth a single lost spell level depending on how long the campaign is meant to go. And remember, Hierophant might not let you get additional spell levels, but it does still raise your CL by one every level. (And in passing, this PrC class feature makes the Spell Power special ability even less useful. You're already getting +1 CL from the PrC itself, you don't need to give up special ability slots for more of it.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    And remember, Hierophant might not let you get additional spell levels, but it does still raise your CL by one every level. (And in passing, this PrC class feature makes the Spell Power special ability even less useful. You're already getting +1 CL from the PrC itself, you don't need to give up special ability slots for more of it.)
    Well, in that particular case then it is the opposite of the Archmage, which get you spells per day and spells known, but no increase in caster level without High Arcana!
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Gift of the Divine seems to me to warrant a -1 point as it is completely useless unless your companions are designed to take advantage of it especially since DDM is practically a class feature of a Cleric making turn attempts an important resource. The opportunity cost of this feature not only effects your competence it also requires having a companion to be leveraged for it to work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rijan_Sai View Post
    Well, in that particular case then it is the opposite of the Archmage, which get you spells per day and spells known, but no increase in caster level without High Arcana!
    Read this, once again thought 'that just doesn't seem quite right,' went to look it up and look around at discussions of it. Wow, this is like, really your personal quest. Seems like you bring it up whenever there's any chance at all. Almost everyone else just attributes this to the DMG PrCs being hastily or sloppily written, and accepts it as increasing CL too. Guess you could make a case for it by strictest RAW (which I admit, is usually my take on things, though it's usually to argue for allowing something that seems brokenly good, not brokenly bad), but it would make the Archmage even worse than it already is, and would really make it not anything at all like the ARCHmage it's advertised as. It gives you the same BAB and saves as Wiz already, so all you end up with then is losing 5 CL to gain a chance to permanently lose some spell slots in exchange for some mediocre abilities, or the chance to permanently trade away a bunch of 5th level slots, just so your damage/range/duration/save DCs all don't fall behind what they'd be if you just stayed as a Wiz to begin with. What would be the point? Just stay Wiz, or use an actually good PrC. No, more likely it's just a minor oversight, seeing as a CL-increasing Archmage doesn't really break or overpower it in any way, just makes it actually useful, though still not all that great, and certainly still not a straight upgrade over just staying as a Wiz. A situational, 'trade general power or versatility for specialized abilities' class, instead of a straight downgrade.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crichton View Post
    Long post right above mine.
    I wouldn’t call it my “personal quest,” though I admit I do bring it up from time to time.
    The problem is that on a RAW discussion board (such as this,) you have to start with the RAW of the books, and then “flavor to taste” from there.
    And the RAW is that yes, the Archmage is just as bad as you describe!
    Would it be unreasonable to say that Archmage (or any other casting PRC for that matter) gives full CL progression? Probably not. But as this particular topic the OP has chosen is using RAW as a base, I believe that it should be taken into consideration whether a class increases CL or not along with spells.

    (Also, this is not limited to the DMG; there are plenty of splat PRCs that do this, too.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    Gift of the Divine seems to me to warrant a -1 point as it is completely useless unless your companions are designed to take advantage of it especially since DDM is practically a class feature of a Cleric making turn attempts an important resource. The opportunity cost of this feature not only effects your competence it also requires having a companion to be leveraged for it to work.
    It is on the fence for me. It definitely requires an ally, but I think the potential increase in power with shared turn attempts is enough not for a -1. What would you rate the class as a whole?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    It is on the fence for me. It definitely requires an ally, but I think the potential increase in power with shared turn attempts is enough not for a -1. What would you rate the class as a whole?
    As a whole I agree with the rating of this one, I think I would give it a 9/20 I have issues seeing this in a break even view which 10/20 would suggest unless you are trying to abuse it with a one level feat dip...

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    I think I'd have to concur with 10/20 on this one, but for slightly different reasons:

    - I'm harder on Spell Power by a further -1 because it's so useless. You already get CL increases from the PrC itself, more CL especially given loss of caster levels is going to be of very limited utility.

    - Gift of the Divine I'm harder on by -1 as well for reasons stated: if you're going DMM CoDzilla, it's a bit crazy to give away half your fuel tank, and its use assumes there's another DMM CoDzilla in the party, in which case your DM is allowing lots of Tier 1s in the party and has likely lost his mind :) (On the other hand, if you had a Hierophant cohort, that could be a handy extra fuel tank for the DMM cleric at these levels).

    So a total of 6/14 for me in that category.

    (3) Opportunity cost I rate a 3/4 mainly because of my RAW reading of the metamagic feat special ability. If you're being flat-out given metamagic feats with no prerequisites, saving two feat slots on a DMM (Persistent) investment is pretty damn good for a one level spell loss, especially if the game's not going to get to 9th level spells. But admittedly this requires that you start at around the levels Hierophant comes online.

    (4) I also rate the prerequisites medium rather than major, thus 1/2. That's because I'm looking at it relativistically. You can't get Hierophant until you're casting 7th level divine spells, which from the perspective of a 1st level character is obviously a massive prerequisite, but if you're playing at around level 13, 14, then the prerequisites are much less for the intended base class of cleric: any metamagic feat plus a class skill. I wouldn't call those major.

    So, yeah. 10/20.

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Horizon Walker
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    1)
    The Horizon Walker has full BAB, d8 HD, good Fort saves, and 4 skill points per level. The skills are decent for a traveler. The first 5 levels have Terrain Mastery and the second 5 levels have Planar Terrain Mastery. These masteries provide a bonus on skill checks relating to the chosen terrain and +1 insight bonus on attack and damage against specific creatures. You don't have to be in the relevant terrain to keep these bonuses. There are 8 normal terrains and 6 planar terrain with an “Other” category left to the DM's discretion. Some are only useful in their terrain, even if it is active everywhere. After all, how often do you see [aquatic] creatures away from bodies of water?

    Regular Terrain
    Aquatic boosts swim checks and speed if you have one and provides a bonus against aquatic foes.
    Desert provides a paradoxical immunity. You are immune to fatigue and anything that would cause exhaustion instead causes fatigue...but you are immune to fatigue... Also a bonus against desert creatures, take THAT Sandstorm!
    Forest boosts hide and attacks on forest creatures.
    Hills boosts listen and attacks on hill creatures.
    Marsh boosts move silently and attacks on marsh creatures.
    Mountains boosts climb and attacks against mountain creatures.
    Plains boosts spot and attacks on plains creatures.
    Underground provides darkvision or boosts existing 60ft darkvision to 120 ft, as well as boosting attacks against underground creatures.

    Planar Terrain
    Fiery gives resist fire 20 and helps with attacks against outsiders and elementals with the fire subtype.
    Weightless increases fly speed on planes without gravity or subjective gravity along with attacks against creatures native to the Astral Plane, Plane of Air, and the Ethereal Plane.
    Cold gives resist cold 20 and boosts attacks against outsiders and elementals with the cold subtype.
    Shifting gives you a neat SLA: dimension door as the spell cast at your character level once every 1d4 rounds. Also, you have a boost to attacks against outsiders and elementals native to a shifting plane.
    Aligned lets you mimic the dominant alignment of whatever plane you are on such that you don't incur a penalty for having an opposed alignment. Also, spells and abilities that harm those of the opposite alignment don't affect you. Class features are unaffected.
    Cavernous gives tremorsense out to 30 feet.
    Other up to the imagination of the DM.

    The best choices of the regular terrain masteries are arguably desert for the fatigue immunity and underground for the darkvision. Other than that, you just have to pick what seems campaign relevant. As for the planar terrain masteries, there are multiple interesting choices. The Shifting option seems like the best as it is free dimension doors all day. If you are hopping planes all the time, Aligned is nice to avoid relevant penalties. Cavernous provides tremorsense, which can frustrate the DM (believe me). Resistances are nice, but the Weightless option is probably the least useful. There are a large variety of other planes that the Other option can create options with, but that is a bit outside the scope of this review.

    This one is harder to explicitly pick where I'm giving or removing points because it is somewhat campaign dependent. Many of the abilities provide substantive boosts, but others are like the ranger's favored enemy: will it be used? I'm leaning towards a higher scroe though, because it does seem useful. The first 5 levels seem less useful than the latter 5, for what its worth. 11 / 14

    2)
    Ranger and scout seem like the best options for the HW. The PrC doesn't advance spellcasting so even though some arcane casters have access to all the knowledge skills, they wouldn't necessarily fit the character concept of the HW. Both ranger and scout can enter at level 6. The ranger delays his spell progression and never even reaches 3rd level spells. He also won't obtain his combat style master, 4th and 5th favored enemies, camouflage, nor HiPS. However, there are some comparable trade-ins with the HW masteries. The +1 attack and damage bonuses to enemy types aren't as good as FE (arguably), but you gain more of them and faster than the ranger. Instead of hiding better, you can find your enemies better and move around easier and faster. It is an interesting tradeoff, but I actually like the eventual abilities of the HW more than the ranger. The lost spell levels are what the HW really misses out on. HW doesn't quite make up for those, even if they are ranger spells. Still, HW looks good in relation to some other comparisons I've made in this thread.

    As for the scout, you lose out on your skirmish progression. That is the biggest loss, since the scout revolves around skirmishing. You never receive some bonus feats, HiPS, a FoM effect, nor blindsight. Skirmish is a bit more active than the ranger's spells, so I feel as though the HW loses out a bit more here. The abilities of the HW are still great and provide similar tradeoffs as noted above. However, the bonuses to attack from HW are noticeably weaker than Skirmish. You probably won't be taking a dip with HW, since the planar masteries come at level 6+. You will notice the lost levels of scout, for sure. 2 / 4

    3)
    One skill and one feat make up the prereqs. If you don't have knowledge (geography), it is just a feat away via knowledge devotion. Endurance isn't fantastic, but it seems on point thematically. I say these reqs are “minor.” 2 / 2

    Horizon Walker 15 / 20
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Horizon Walker

    First off I am going to say under section 2 HW should have 3 points; even in core only using Ranger/Barbarian is a solid always a solid multiclass entry into HW and only gets more so as you have access to more sources doing something like Lion Spirit Totem+Bear Totem Barbarian 2/Strong Arm Style Ranger 3/HW10 is quite powerful.

    On section 1, I am on the fence and feel like the terrains might deserve a bit more points but this PRC already has the highest rating... The skill bonuses are like getting a slightly better version of Skill Focus to a different skill each level, hills and Plains are great choices because of listen and spot also the amount of monsters with those descriptors in your average game and forest rounds the group off nicely ensures you are normally going to be getting a +1 to attack and damage to most opponents you come across before you start to gallivant around the planes. Also getting a permanent resist 20 to two energy types is worth 84k gold which is quite nice especially since it isn't dispellable. Also Aligned is quite a powerful class feature.

    All and all I half think 16 or 17 out of 20 might be reasonable.

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    Hrm.

    This one strikes me as much more viable as a dip than a career choice. For Barbarians it's a good single level dip for that Desert terrain, end your vulnerability to post-rage fatigue about 11 levels earlier than you otherwise would, and the only drawback otherwise is your HD drop from d12 to d8. The only trick then is picking up the cross-class skill, which would necessitate Able Learner or something else, thus, your opportunity cost for fatigue immunity is two feats and an otherwise mostly useless skill.

    Aligned could be kind of hilarious given they don't exclude the Prime Material Plane from the planes that count for dominant alignment.

    Beyond that, it's very campaign dependent. Sure a rogue-ish type could get some use out of the boosts to Listen and Spot, and there's a boost to a fairly wide variety of creature types by definition of the environments, but it's still nothing to really write home about. There's not really that much here that you couldn't get out of cheap-ish magic items, and they wouldn't sweat you out of your abilities such as sneak attack or skirmish.

    I rate the abilities at a 9/14.

    I also rate the opportunity cost at a 2/4. Scout in particular and Ranger are seriously compromised taking more than one level in this thing. Some of it is useful, but I'd rather either extra Skirmish or the ability to actually cast 3rd level spells.

    I rate the prerequisites as medium. For the classes that get best benefit out of this thing, it's two feats plus a mostly-irrelevant skill: Endurance plus whatever feat you have to spend to pick up Knowledge (Nature). 1/2.

    Thus: 12/20 from me.

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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    Loremaster
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    1)
    The Loremaster is an information specialist and full caster. It has a d4 HD, half BAB, and good will save. It also receives 4 skill ranks per level and has a solid list of skills to choose from. The class can notably be entered from any casting class, not just arcane or divine, and the highest known spell required is only 3rd.

    The first ability of the class is the Secret, which is gained every odd level. The Secret is chosen off of a table and your available selection is based off of INT mod and PrC level. Therefore, you should have a limited selection at first, but gain access to more as you level. The ten choices range from crap (+3 HP), to pretty great (any one feat). The bonus feat is an easy choice because of the 4 feat reqs to enter the class. Other choices include skill ranks, +2 to a save, +1 to attacks or AC, or a bonus low level spell. These are definitely useful abilities, but it is worth noting you can only choose a given Secret once.

    The Lore series of abilities is next. Lore functions as Bardic Knowledge, which is good if not campaign dependent. Greater Lore functions as Identify, the spell, which isn't so useful at these levels. That one feels more like a dead level than a useful ability. True Lore allows a once per day Legend Lore or Analyze Dweomer, which is a lot more useful than Identify. -1 for Greater Lore's less than Great ability

    Bonus Languages are gained twice and are definitely wasted levels. I've never had a character tell me they wish they had invested resources into a language. -2 for dead levels
    11 / 14

    2)
    The Loremaster is most likely entered by wizard due to the INT usage of Secret and bonus MM feats for entry. Cleric is ok, but not as easy as wizard. If you allow for the reqs to be metapsionic feats, it seems like there could be a psionic adaptation for Loremaster. You just need the seven divination spells worked out somehow. More on point, the full casting PrC comes down to class features vs class features. Cleric and Wizard don't really have class features, so Loremaster comes out ahead in abilities. The bigger downside for cleric is the feat investment, which I will get to. I was thinking about wu jen, but divination spells are an issue. Even if they aren't the most interesting abilities, Loremaster abilities are useful. 4 / 4

    3)
    Loremaster has “major” requirements. Right away, you can tell you will be working your build around entering this PrC. Seven divination spells, four feats, and two knowledge skills at 10 ranks aren't likely to be stumbled upon by accident. 0 / 2

    Loremaster 15 / 20
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    Default Re: PrC Evaluation Thread

    So really for this one you're getting a feat, a +1 to attack, a +1 to AC, a +2 to one of your saves, any maybe 4 ranks in a skill you haven't had room for until now. And mind you, you have to stay for 10 levels to get all of those, and you're not getting that extra feat until around level 4 or so in the PrC at the earliest. The other stuff is Legend Lore which the DM likely won't let you cast when you most need it, an identify late on, and a Bardic Knowledge roll. I'm a bit harder on the ratings of these abilities. I call that grab bag a 6/14 all up, it's nothing special in my view.

    In terms of opportunity costs, the 10/10 casting progression that makes it bearable. Anything less and this thing wouldn't be worth taking. And as said cleric and wizard are about the only guys who're likely to go looking at this class anyway. There could be something in this if you're going Cloistered Cleric and later into clericzilla -- Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and DMM Persistent Spell are all needed for DMM Persist antics, and there's your three metamagic feats; and the Cloistered Cleric is more likely than anyone else to have 10 ranks in 2 Knowledge skills. One more feat in Skill Focus (Knowledge) and you're done, which isn't a bad synergy with a Knowledge Devotion type. An instant mastery in one of the more obscure Knowledge skills helps a cloistered type a little. 4/4.

    And as said, the prerequisites are pretty significant. I think a DMM clericzilla actually fares better than the Wizard in this space if only because they don't have to chew up a limited-space spellbook with seven divination spells, but either way in a feat-poor class you need as many feats as you can get. 0/2.

    Thus: total of 10/20 for me.

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