PrC Evaluation Thread

[magic9mushroom]

Greater Lore functions as Identify, the spell, which isn't so useful at these levels.

That... depends. There was a concerted effort late in 3.5 to obsolete Identify (via Artificer's Monocle and MIC's Detect Magic buff), but if Identify is actually a thing you're casting then having a 1-hour-cast 100-gp-material-component spell as an automatic (Ex) ability is actually pretty spiffy. Analyse Dweomer is obviously better, and at this level it's available, but a sorcerer could well not know it and a cleric can't (a wizard won't likely have it prepared, but the cost of putting it off 'till downtime is pretty low).

3)
Loremaster has “major” requirements. Right away, you can tell you will be working your build around entering this PrC. Seven divination spells, four feats, and two knowledge skills at 10 ranks aren't likely to be stumbled upon by accident. [b]0 / 2

The only thing Wizard 10 has to go out of its way to do in order to enter Loremaster is take Skill Focus (Knowledge). The other three feats are force-fed (Scribe Scroll and the two bonus feats which can't be anything but metamagic or item creation), seven divinations isn't actually very many (the three divination cantrips are automatic, and there are plenty of good divination spells), and Wizards are an Int class with two or three other useful class skills. A cleric or sorcerer has quite a bit more difficulty (although the cleric literally automatically hits the "seven divinations"), but for a Wizard it's a one-feat qualification.

The other stuff is Legend Lore which the DM likely won't let you cast when you most need it, an identify late on, and a Bardic Knowledge roll. I'm a bit harder on the ratings of these abilities. I call that grab bag a 6/14 all up, it's nothing special in my view.

Legend Lore has material components and a long casting time; getting it free is really good. Yes, it is so damned good that a DM might not let you have it, but a DM might not let you have Tainted Spellcasting either and that doesn't factor into how powerful Tainted Scholar is as written.

And as said, the prerequisites are pretty significant. I think a DMM clericzilla actually fares better than the Wizard in this space if only because they don't have to chew up a limited-space spellbook with seven divination spells, but either way in a feat-poor class you need as many feats as you can get. 0/2.

Spellbook space is not an especially-serious issue for a Wizard, since Boccob's Blessed Book exists. Seven divinations is, again, not a lot - a Wizard starts with Detect Poison, Detect Magic and Read Magic whether he wants to or not, and Tongues and Scrying are no-brainers.

As regards feats... remember that Wizard 5 is force-fed two of those (Scribe Scroll and a bonus metamagic or item creation).

It merits a 1/2, but not a 0/2. Prereqs get a lot tougher than Loremaster's (Fochlucan Lyrist is the type example, but there are plenty that are nearly as bad like Yathrinshee).

[Mike Miller]

Mystic Theurge

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1)
The Mystic Theurge is the prototype for mixing two base class progressions in a single PrC. It has the standard caster chassis with d4 HD, half BAB, good WILL save, and a relatively small and specific skill set. Its only class feature, if you want to call it that, is that it progresses one arcane and one divine spellcasting track each level. Without early entry methods, you are looking at starting this at level 7. This means you will hit level 10 of the PrC at level 16 with level 13 casting for both arcane and divine. You will always be multiple levels behind any other full casters in the party in terms of individual class and only have access to ninth level spells at level 20 if you stick with one of those classes for all your remaining levels.

This is probably a bad progression in most games. Being effectively one to two spell levels behind an ally is a noticeable gap in power. If you are the sole caster, you may not have the level appropriate spells to accomplish expected challenges. However, if you are not the sole caster, you will be feeling the lack of power. Moving to early entry methods, you could end up overshadowing allies by always having a ready solution to a problem. You will still be limited to your action economy, but your versatility is much expanded. You could just let your allies carry their weight, but it is worth noting that you have the potential of stepping on toes if you enter earlier than expected. Given the possible troubles of the class and lack of actual class features, I will give it 6 / 14.

2)
As for opportunity costs, the big thing is spell level. Instead of being behind 3 levels, you could have just been a straight full caster. It doesn't even matter too much which casters you look at. The difference in power between a wizard 3/cleric 3 and a wizard 6 or cleric 6 is obvious. It just gets worse as you level up. Something like wizard 3 / cleric 3 / MT 7 with fifth level arcane and divine as compared to a wizard 13 or cleric 13 with seventh level spells... Well, the difference in power there is real, regardless of the full caster base classes you use. This changes if you bring early entry methods into play, but those aren't always allowed. Versatility is useful too and not all campaigns need the power. Therefore, I will go with 1 / 4.

3)
Knowledge arcana and religion 6 aren't difficult to obtain and neither are second level divine and second level arcane. It is more the levels required to make the build work. This is a “medium” moment in my mind. 1 / 2

Mystic Theurge 8 / 20

[Saintheart]

Can't really disagree with any of that. 8/20.

[Zombimode]

I think I have to disagree with that. I think you are penalizing the Mystic Theurge for beeing weaker then a single class divine or arcane caster which strikes me as unfair. Being a Mystic Theurge is all about versatility and I think you are underselling the value of that. True, the actual worth of the versatility is dependent on the rest of the group: if they already have covered the bases the Mystic Theurge would provide, the Mystic Theurge will likely feel less impactful. But on the other hand the Mystic Theurge could be the linchpin the rest of the party is anchored arround.

A arcane/divine caster fullfills a diferent niche then a normal divine or arcane caster would. So if you are set out to make such a character the Mystic Theurge prc provides a straigth foreward way of realizing that character with very few bells and whistles attached. It's not like there are many other PRCs to choose from that advance both divine and arcane casting. Giving a low score seem counterintuitive as it implies that there a other PRCs that are clearly better at its job or that simply advaning the base classes would be preferable. At the very least Mystic Theure is clearly better then say Cleric 10/Wizard 10.

I get that the lack of class features can seem disappointing, but to me that is the same as complaining about the lack of class features for wizards and clerics. In my experience it does not prevent people from playing single class wizards and clerics and being happy about it. Spells are quite interesting class features by themselves and Mystic Theurges get those in spades.

Admittedly I have no first-hand experience with a Mystic Theurge, but I did play a True Necromancer from level 1 to his final form at level 18 (Cloistered Cleric 3 / Conjurer Wizard 3 / True Necromancer 12 iirc.). True, the Necromancy was a important part of the characters power. But I still think that I got some vital experience with playing a "Theurge" character:
- at very low levels, when you are a straight cleric/wizard multiclass, the sheer number and versatiliy of your spells will carry your weight
- there is a gap where the lack of power was really felt: form about level 5 to 8 being stuck with just level 1 and 2 spells was quite the drag. A Mystic Theurge would not be my first choice for a campaign like Red Hand of Doom.
- after that period, the character really took of: having enough spells to provide lots of defense and buffs as well as reactive spells and still packing some choice offense
- you can afford to perpare/pick niche spells
- my spell picks did differ from what I would normally do with a single class caster: pack reactive spells, battle field control and some smart offensive picks. The actual killing power was provided by the other characters
- there are some nice synergies from having access to both wizard and cleric spells. One that stood out because it was available from most of the campaigns run time and because it saved the party on many occasions: Ressurgence plus Spectral Hand. Ressurgence can single handely turn a loosing battle arround - if you can reach your fellow party member since Ressurgence is a touch spell. Spectral Hand makes Ressurgence so much more useable.

Edit: upon re-reading my post it come off harsher then intended. So lets try again in short:
- I can see where your low scores are comming from, but I think they are coloured by your personal issues with the concept of a divine/aracane caster focused on versatility then raw power* AND I think that concept is more viable then you would expect.
- Compared to other option that would achieve similar results the Mystic Theurge pretty much does what it says with no strings attached.
- For me the lack of class features on a primary casting class isn't a big deal

* That would be like giving a monk prc a low rating because you don't like monks.

[liquidformat]

despite Zombimode trying to make his case with true necromancer which is a horrid example of a Theurge class I have to agree with him. If you are going Theurge at all you already have the expectation that you are going to be behind the other casters but will be making up for that with the breadth of spells you have at your disposal. I have played multiple Theurge builds and while Mystic Theurge is a barebones filler of a prc it is still very useful and worth while. I think it is more in the range of 10-12 out of 20.

[Mike Miller]

Shadowdancer

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1)
The Shadowdancer is a rogue-type character who uses shadows to move quickly around the battelfield. The PrC has a d8 HD, 3 / 4 BAB, good REF saves, 6 skill ranks per level, and lots of skills to choose from. This PrC is another rare proficiency-laden class. It has a mix of weapons in addition to light armor.

The first ability the Shadowdancer receives is Hide in Plain Sight. The earliest you can enter the class is level 8, and that is a good level to have HiPS. I like the ability and I think it does a nice job of setting the theme of the class.

Next are evasion, darkvision (as per a constant spell effect oddly enough), and uncanny dodge. None of them are amazing alone, although evasion is always nice. However, all three on one level makes for a great level up.

The shadow abilities come rolling in at level 3 with Shadow Illusion and Summon Shadow. Once per day, the Shadowdancer can use silent image as a SLA. Although not fantastic for a level 10+ ability, silent image is generally useful. The summoned shadow is a slightly improved shadow companion that scales with your class level. It should function well as a flanking buddy as long as you are careful not to let it die. You lose XP if it dies, which may or may not matter to you.

Shadow Jump is like a very limited dimension door. The range is far less and it must originate and terminate in shadow. The number of uses per day is based on distance, which potentially makes it much better than abilities printed in other DMG PrCs. It starts out as nearly useless at 20 ft max jump, but caps at 160 ft.

Defensive Roll lets you potentially make a reflex save when reduced to 0 or less HP to take half damage instead. I've never cared for this type of ability, because a lot of the time, in my experience, half damage ends up being the same result as full damage. The potential to save you from dying is present, but I would rather invest my resources in more reliable safety procedures.

Also at fifth level is improved uncanny dodge, which is as useful as ever. At seventh, you receive slippery mind to have another chance at a failed enchantment saving throw and at tenth, improved evasion.

Some levels are packed with goodies and others are just plus numbers. I think the abilities could probably have been split up better to make it more enticing as a whole instead of as a dip. As it is, a 2 or 3 level dip sounds decent. I find the individual aspects hard to rate in this one, because they are all somewhat useful. However, they can be received in other ways and aren't fantastic. You are certainly better off for having them, but they aren't the features to base a character on. If it boosted sneak attack and allowed for longer shadow jumps, it would be pretty cool. 10 / 14

2)
There are a few core classes which actually have an easy time entering: bard, monk, ranger, and rogue. I think any of these classes would make a decent Shadowdancer, but bard seems a little out of place. I will focus on the other three. First up, the monk should turn the SD's evasion into improved evasion at level 2 because it could receive it at the same level as if it had stayed in monk. The biggest things missing from monk are extra flurry attacks and increased unarmed damage. Otherwise, I think you would enjoy your newfound shadow abilities more than the increased speed, slowfall, etc. of the monk.

As for ranger, you lose some BAB but gain evasion at the same level, again. You miss the last combat style and some spell advancement. You do have an additional buddy though. Now you can have your animal companion and shadow companion roaming the battlefield with you. Throw in shadow jump and your enemies will never know where the three are striking from next! I know ranger spells are useful, but they rank lower in my mind than other spell lists. If you delay entry by one level, you can grab a second level spell or two (bonus spells) if you want. You may miss having the higher spells eventually, but I feel like the shadow abilities work well for ranger.

As for rogue, the class fits thematically. You miss sneak attack progression immediately and will only ever have one rogue specail abilitiy. Again, the shadow jump and companioin have great synergy for a melee rogue. You have a reliable flanking buddy as you pop around the battlefield. There are some overlaps in the abilities: evasion, uncanny dodge, defensive roll, improved uncanny dodge, improved evasion, and slippery mind. The mobility and similar abilities make this feel like an alternate rogue progression.

Overall, I feel like you can make this work for any of these classes. You miss a bit everywhere, but it still functions well. 3 / 4

3)
With three feats and three skills to put points in, it isn't a “minor” investment, but it isn't a “major” investment, either. I say “medium.” 1 / 2

Shadowdancer 14 / 20

[liquidformat]

I feel like your numbers are too high for the Shadowdancer. Thematically it is the core only rogue prc however, it lacks sneak attack and also on the skill side is lacking disable device, open locks, and use magical device. Furthermore, without leveraging ACFs evasion and uncanny dodge aren't as useful for a rogue if not for the fact that these abilities are useful for ranger and monk I would suggest a -1 as is this just barely scates by. Also of note is that a ranger can't enter Shadowdancer before level 10 without a dip in bard, rogue, or monk class since perform isn't a class skill. All and all besides a single level to two level dip this is a pretty bad prc for rogues that doesn't do much to promote rogue abilities and is much better for rangers and monks as such I would suggest loosing 2/4 in category 2. Even then the abilities are lacking, shadow illusion at only once per day is utterly forgettable -1, and the lethargic start for shadow jump makes it a lack luster ability especially since it is the main ability granted by the prc -1. Summon Shadow is to squishy to be of much use, even as a flanking buddy a single hit at level 10+ is typically enough to kill it outright and at that level being incorporeal isn't enough to keep it safe -2 summon shadow is a liability that doesn't scale fast enough or provide enough powers to leveraged.

All and all I can't see Shadowdancer getting better than 9/20, it is a lackluster prc that doesn't go anywhere or give enough benefits to merit more than a level or two dip.

[jdizzlean]

The Mod Life Crisis: Raise thread by request !

[liquidformat]

Hurrah its back!

So do we finish evaluating the Shadowdancer or move forward to Thaumaturgist?

[Mike Miller]

I'm always open to more feedback. Feel free to continue on with the Shadowdancer. I do, however, have some input on Thaumaturgist.

Thaumaturgist

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1)
The Thaumaturist is a pretty good PrC in my opinion, so let's see if that holds up to scrutiny. It has half BAB, good WILL, d4 HD, 2 skill points per level, and full casting progression. So far, standard caster chassis. This one is all about summoning, so it better have abilities that reflect that.

Improved Ally is useful if you are going the planar ally route, and you should if you are taking this PrC! You can get a discount on services from your planar ally, which is always a good thing.

Augment summoning is somewhat meh. It is a bonus feat though and better than a number of other PrCs' bonus feats. At least it does directly affect your main goal: summoning!

Extended summoning is pretty great. It extends all summoning spells for free and explicitly stacks with your extend metamagic feat. This can get you some quality duration summons.

Contingent Conjuration is absolutely fantastic. You mostly cast a summoning spell in advance and a trigger causes it to finish casting instantly. This means you can have an immediate summon instead of a full round! I don't need to go into detail about how great contingency is in general. This feels like the capstone to me.

Planar Cohort turns the planar ally into a permanent buddy. It seems somewhat unnecessary, but isn't bad. You can have a nifty cohort that you wouldn't otherwise get from leadership.

All of this is so useful, I'm tempted to give it a full 14/14. I hate setting the precedent that anything can't be improved though, so I'll nitpick at it a bit. The second level bonus feat is somewhat weak and you don't really need the price reduction from the first level. That is a pretty weak argument against the full score. I'll go with 13 / 14 for now.

2)
As for opportunity costs, you can see the chassis is similar to cleric. Sure it has worse saves and BAB, but that is the go-to comparison. You could compare it to other summoner base classes, but the prereq is a Cleric spell, so I'm pretty sure you'll lose out on a lot just getting the spell on your list. Since cleric really doesn't get anything for the levels you'll be prestiging out, you definitely come out ahead. Sure, you lose a bit of FORT progression, but Divine Power takes care of the BAB. You could consider a similar wizard build using Planar Binding, but then you wouldn't have the cool specials like free extend or instant summons. 3 / 4 Edit: Down to 3 / 4 due to loss of HD and BAB

3)
The prereqs are pretty straightforward: 1) take spell focus (conjuration) and 2) be a level 7 cleric (or cleric with PrCs that continue the spellcasting progression). As the opportunity cost above shows cleric is a good base, I don't really see those prereqs as being anything other than minor. 2 / 2

Thaumaturgist 18 / 20

Highest rating yet! Take that, everything else in the DMG!

[liquidformat]

I agree with you for the most part however, I believe a point should be taken out either in group 1 or 2 due to this being a cleric prc that has d4 1/2 bab and only one save, it isn't a big deal of the prc but it is noticeable. So I will go with 18/20

[IraWolf]

I agree with the above post - as great as I think Thaumaturgist is as a PrC, I think you do slightly underplay the opportunity cost. Your hit die are halved, which while not a huge deal IS a genuine downgrade, and base BAB being lower is similarly not a huge deal, but not nothing. Spell Focus (Conjuration) also isn't really what I would call an optimal feat choice for a Cleric, and is certainly something that you are giving up in order to take levels in the PrC. I agree with your other category ratings, and think that the Thaumaturgist deserves an 18/20.

[Mike Miller]

The Miniatures Handbook introduced the Favored Soul, Healer, Marshal, and Warmage. I will try to keep the base classes of each source in mind when going over the PrCs of the same source, as they were probably in the minds of the writers.

Bonded Summoner

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1)
The Bonded Summoner knows all the things about a selected Inner Plane. Through this knowledge, the BS replaces the previously chosen familiar with an elemental of whichever plane the BS has chosen to study. The chassis is standard for a mage type with the unfortunate limit of being a half casting progressing class. If you can get past that limit, it seems like a good class. I may be somewhat biased as I have been preparing to start an Inner Planes campaign for weeks that starts tomorrow! Now I want all my players to be Bonded Summoners =D

There are quite a lot of class features, which generally means good things for the character taking the PrC. The primary feature of the class is arguably the Elemental companion. At level 1, it replaces your familiar as a medium elemental. You also gain resistance 5 to whichever energy you’ve chosen. In a bizarre pattern, you only gain features on odd levels, except at level 10 where you gain your capstone. At each odd level, your elemental goes up one stat block until it ends up being an elder elemental at level 9. It gains some familiar-style abilities such as sharing spells and delivering touch spells along the way. Also, the resistance to energy goes up by 5s until it becomes immunity at level 9.

At each odd level beyond 1st, you gain some other fun feature. At 3rd, you gain immunity to sleep, 5th is poison, 7th is paralysis and stunning, and 9th you can’t be flanked. Those are some good immunities. Lastly, the capstone grants immunity to critical hits, the elemental type and relevant subtype, and a polymorph style elder elemental form once per day with a long duration.

If not for the half casting, I think this should be a popular PrC. However, the stigma that comes with losing 5 caster levels is real and I must penalize it. Otherwise, these abilities are all useful. I think the breakdown of abilities is pretty strange, considering there were enough to spread out across each level. I think it is worth a -1 just for the fact that you require 2 levels (after the first) to gain your next feature. It is also worth noting that you can gain some if not all of the immunities with magic items and spells. Summoning spells can do a darn fine job replacing the companion for a bit, which limits their awesomeness a tad. Having a huge elemental follow you around everywhere is a lot of fun, though. Non-unique features that are easily replicated elsewhere definitely deserve a penalty. I will tentatively go with 7 / 14, but I could probably be persuaded a bit in either direction.

2)
The opportunity costs always hurt with decreased casting progression and the BS is no exception. If you don’t mind the feat taxes to obtain a familiar and knowledge (planes), warmage can become a BS. However, the lost spell levels hurt the warmage as bad as any other caster. I definitely think any class feature familiar class, such as sorcerer and wizard, are better choices. It also helps if you already have knowledge (planes) on your skill list. Losing caster progression hurts. Maxing out with 8th (or 7th as a spontaneous caster) at level 20 is pretty noticeable, especially if you have other casters in your party that didn’t lose casting progression. The class features are good, but spells and items can replicate a lot (if not all) of them. I’m pretty tempted to go with 0 here….so I will. 0 / 4

3)
The prereqs make sense for the BS: knowledge (planes), speak language (elemental), 2nd level arcane spells, and have a familiar. Some classes meet these prereqs easier than others, but I am definitely going with medium at best. If you don’t have an inherent familiar, you have to blow a feat on it. Arcane spells instead of any spells means you cut out a bunch of divine entries, which I don’t see as a necessary cut. Compared to some other prereqs, I feel good about medium. 1 / 2

Bonded Summoner 8 / 20

[liquidformat]

The big issue I see with Bonded Summoner is every single one of its class features is easily accomplished with spells and magic items even the elemental is easily replicated with Planar Binding. So I think you can break this down to loosing caster levels in exchange for permanent spells and sadly not enough nor powerful enough to justify 5 caster level loss. Also lets talk about the familiar for a second, the way familiars work they are often a liability for wizards, sorcerers, and Beguilers because they don't have the HP or BaB to take advantage of them so it is better to either replace this or get a utility familiar. Bonded summoner with 1/2 bab and d4 suffers from this same issue and in fact has it compounded because your elemental familiar is such a big soft target, it is strictly worse than simply planar binding an elemental which to be honest isn't a very good use of planar binding either. In light of that I am thinking 5/20

[Mike Miller]

Dragon Samurai

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1)
The Dragon Samurai is supposed to be like a normal samurai, except having sworn fealty to dragons and having nothing in common with samurai. … … Off to a great start!

The DS has a d10 HD which is nice, but 3 / 4 BAB for some reason, good FORT and WILL which is definitely appreciated, 2 skill points per level, and no mention of anything remotely samurai from here on out. You’d think they’d at least have some sword proficiency or bow proficiency, but nope. -1

At level 1, they get a scaling damage breath weapon that is likely too weak and everyone’s favorite amount of usage: one per day! The DC will likely be too low for your one breath attack to ever be useful. -1

You also start a scaling energy resist with 5 that slowly scales up to 20 at level 10.

At level 2, you obtain Dragon Friend, which sounds like a dragon familiar/cohort/follower. Nope! Another let down by the DS. Instead you have a mere +4 circumstance bonus on CHA based checks when dealing with your dragon type. Maybe in a heavily RP focused game this would be useful. -1

At level 3, immune to dragon fear specifically of your chosen color. There are lots of ways to be immune to fear, this is both unimpressive and overly specific. -1

At level 4, a potentially more useful ability awaits in Elemental Weapon +1d6. This adds elemental damage to your melee weapons and explicitly stacks with any other enchants it has. It also increases to +2d6 at level 9. The downside being such a pitiful amount of bonus damage: around level 14 you get an extra +2d6 damage… -2

At level 6, Dragon Ride! Finally, a dragon mount, right? C’mon, you didn’t really expect this class to give something fun at this point, did you? Nope, just a +4 on ride checks when riding a dragon. Finding a dragon mount is up to you! -1

At level 8, an unimpressive feat: Blind-Fight! If you took 8 levels of this class just for blind-fight… -1

And no capstone. -3 for what amount to dead levels in the form of “+numbers” Ugh 3 / 14 and that feels generous…

2)
Opportunity costs, eh? I have a feeling this is heading towards a 0 before I even start brainstorming. I’m not sure what their intended entry to this was, but as far as Mini classes go, perhaps Marshal? It doesn’t seem particularly intuitive, but then I’m not really sure anything goes well with this class. I’m being pretty harsh but you really don’t get much from DS. Let’s go basic: Fighter. Entering at level 6 as a BS and going 10 levels vs Fighter of the same levels. A fighter would have 5 bonus feats and full BAB only good FORT but same skills and HD. The DS has energy resistance and a bit of damage with melee weapons. I’m willing to bet that those 5 feats (which one could be blind fight if you want it) would be more useful than the garbage from DS. In short, if Fighter 10 is more appealing than [PrC] 10 there can be only one score: 0 / 4

3)
As for prereqs, you must match the alignment of your selected dragon type, BAB 5, and a skill req that everyone can meet at level 1. Considering BAB 5 is basically just a matter of time, I am going with minor. 2 / 2

Dragon Samurai 5 / 20

[liquidformat]

I am going with 2/20 for this PRC, the least they could have done is give you d12 HD, full bab all good saves and 6+int skills points/level. Complete garbage this PRC is worse than Dragon Disciple and I see no reason it should have a better score than Dragon Disciple.

[Saintheart]

It's hard to think you could create a worse Samurai than the Master Samurai, but WOTC succeeded beyond my wildest nightmares. 3/20 from me, and that only because if you're desperate it might be worth a 2 level dip for the level-based +3 to Will saves which isn't easy to come by in mundane beatstick progressions out of the box ... at least not at the low levels. Also might -- might -- be a handy tool if you have a frugal DM who won't let you come by a prereq-necessary breath weapon elsewhere (and notice this breath weapon stacks with any other you've already got, which is interesting at least). And even then you're losing 1 BAB for it.

[Mike Miller]

Havoc Mage

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1)
The Havoc Mage is supposed to be a front line arcane caster. This is not a common role. The chassis starts out ok: d8 HD, 3 / 4 BAB, good FORT and WILL saves, with 2 skill points per level. One downside for the chassis is 3 / 5 caster progression. For some, the lost caster levels are already too much. I will just say -2 for now, as a front line caster should have been either full BAB or full caster (both would never have been acceptable by WotC standards).

The one class feature is Battlecast and it scales as you level. Basically, you attack and cast a spell with a full round action. It starts with up to 2nd level spells but ends at up to 8th level spells at 5th level (at this point you may not even have level 8 spells, heh). You explicitly still have standard ASF, so being a front line caster doesn’t sound like a wise decision, even with d8 HD and better-than-half BAB. This ability is good, but I don’t see it being worth losing caster levels over. I would rather just cast a spell and position myself outside of melee range. With no defensive abilities, I can’t really support Battlecast. -4 for taking on the suicidal role of front line caster…

I say another -2 for two dead levels which leaves me with a subtotal of 6 / 14

2)
As for opportunity costs, the first thing that stands out is again the lost caster levels. The obvious choices are sorcerer, wizard, and warmage (if specifically considering the source book). Straight warmage can enter at level 9 and gain battlecast 8th before having 8th level spells. Similar stories for sorc and wiz. However, all three are likely better off not taking this PrC and living outside of melee. Keeping the front line caster role in mind, how would they fare? Well, the wizard can still be a wizard, just not as effective with the loss of caster levels. The sorc is probably hindered less because the spells known can be geared towards the role. The warmage seems to be the worst of the three, as they are very blasty. Warmages are likely better off being far away from frontline and raining magical death from a distance. Can they be front line casters on their own? With the sorc/wiz spell list, yes sorcs and wizs can. Even with the lower BAB, I would say having a spell level higher than their HM counterparts puts them ahead. So even with the front line role in mind, I really can’t justify more than one out of four. The single class feature really puts you into a niche role that I’ve never seen anyone vie for. This isn’t even gish territory. This is just “wizard smash” territory. You aren’t gaining weapon or armor proficiency, you aren’t intimidating, you aren’t performing maneuvers… You just swing a weapon while casting a spell. 0 / 4

(As an unnecessary addition, throw in the opportunity cost of actual gishes, both base classes and PrCs and the HM seems even worse. Try out Duskblade or Abjurant Champion for starters and dive down the gish rabbit hole for more reasons why HM is not a gish…)

3)
The prerequisites strike me as medium straight away. With BAB+4 and 2nd level arcane spells, you have a decent path ahead of you. Throw in some low knowledge and it seems on par with other medium reqs.Yea, they are minor. 2 / 2

Havoc Mage: 8 / 20

[Luccan]

This seems pretty much intended to make warmages more viable meleers. They already get armor (albeit medium armor comes a bit late) and possess a better base hit die, which is one of the biggest obstacles to the Havoc Mage doing its job at all. While I don't think it's a particularly good PrC, I'd argue the Warmage is actually the best choice of your options, since it stands some chance of actually doing the thing the PrC is intended to do.

[Nifft]

The Havoc Mage is supposed to be a front line arcane caster. This is not a common role.

Gish is a pretty common character concept.

There are many classes which bring arcane casting onto the front lines: Bladesinger, Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, Knight Phantom, Arcane Swordsage, Jade Phoenix Disciple, Spellsword, Dragonslayer -- and those are just off the top of my head.

[Troacctid]

I think havoc mage is underrated. If you use it with a spell-storing weapon, you're actually casting two spells at once, which is definitely not too shabby. It's not limited to melee attacks either, so you can use spell-storing arrows the same way. And it's a good way to efficiently cast short-duration buff spells on yourself. Like, you can polymorph into a hydra and then attack with all your heads as part of the same action. That's pretty nifty if you ask me.

And the requirements are trivial, not medium. Every arcane caster will meet them automatically by level 8.

[Mike Miller]

Gish is a pretty common character concept.

There are many classes which bring arcane casting onto the front lines: Bladesinger, Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, Knight Phantom, Arcane Swordsage, Jade Phoenix Disciple, Spellsword, Dragonslayer -- and those are just off the top of my head.

At the end of my post, I called out gishes. This is not a gish. It is a proto-gish. Hence my very specific title of front line caster.
I agree with you that gish is a common concept.

And the requirements are trivial, not medium. Every arcane caster will meet them automatically by level 8.

Oh. Yea. >.> Good call. I updated it to reflect that.

[Blue Jay]

Like, you can polymorph into a hydra and then attack with all your heads as part of the same action. That's pretty nifty if you ask me.

It says you can make a weapon attack when you Battlecast, so I've always assumed that that means you only get one attack and one spell for your full-round action. Have I been reading that wrong?

[Saintheart]

Does have more applications for archers. I wouldn't mind the capacity to cast True Strike in the same round as I take the shot without having to mess around with Quicken Spell. It sure beats Arcane Archer in that respect. 9/20.

[liquidformat]

as a front line caster should have been either full BAB or full caster (both would never have been acceptable by WotC standards).

But but Abjurant Champion gets both and d10 hit die...

Does have more applications for archers. I wouldn't mind the capacity to cast True Strike in the same round as I take the shot without having to mess around with Quicken Spell. It sure beats Arcane Archer in that respect. 9/20.

I agree with this it is better than going Arcane Archer and generally a better option for ranged gish.

[Mike Miller]

But but Abjurant Champion gets both and d10 hit die...

I meant, at the time. It being so early in the publishing cycle, basically the first non core book, I wouldn't expect them to create something like that.

[Mike Miller]

Skullclan Hunter

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1)
The Skullclan Hunter is an undead hunting class whose source-recommended entry point is rogue/cleric. The class has nothing to do with cleric: it doesn’t progress casting, it doesn’t add to turn undead, it doesn’t add spells or domains… ScH only has prerequisites based on the general fluff of “undead should be associated with divine.” Even though I like this class, it isn’t off to a quality start. As for the chassis, you have a d6 HD, 6 skill ranks per level, 3 / 4 BAB, and good REF and WILL saves. This seems about right for a rogue and you obtain a class feature at every level (which is what makes Monks so powerful, right? wink wink).

The level 1 ability is Track Undead, which should be self-explanatory… You can track undead as if with the track feat, but you can also use your knowledge (religion) instead of survival, which is nice since that is a prereq. This should actually be useful, because you should only take this PrC in a game where you know you will be up against undead. Whether or not that plays out is up to the DM.

Level 2 sees Divine Strike. I think this ability is worded very poorly, but it sounds as though it is trying to say, “You can sneak attack undead.” What it really says is more like, “…can make a special attack…” Eh, sneak attack vs undead, got it!

At level 3 you begin your sneak attack additions at each multiple of 3 and your immunities begin, which are scattered about. First is immunity to undead fear. This one is rather specific, but still useful. I hear about enough undead-heavy campaigns to feel this is similar to Track Undead above, useful if you know there is a reason to take this class, but potentially useless otherwise.

Level 4 has immune to all disease, which is better than the undead-specific fear above. However, the nicer effect at level 4 is a permanent protection from evil effect on yourself. Hopefully your undead enemies are being summoned a lot.

Level 5 has the misnamed “Sword of Light” ability which not only doesn’t require a sword, but doesn’t even require a weapon. Prepare to backhand your undead enemies, with light! Any weapon you wield overcomes undead DR, which should prove useful.

Level 6 is somewhat of a dead level being it only gives you more sneak attack.

Level 7 has immunity to paralysis and level 8 has immunity to ability drain or damage. Both are quite nice.

Level 9 has sword of darkness, which makes your weapons count as ghost touch instead of some reverse-sword-of-light ability. This one is rather specific again, as even an undead campaign may not see a lot of incorporeal enemies. For example, a vampire based campaign could mostly be vampires and vampire spawn. A zombie apocalypse would have zombies. Etc.

Lastly, your capstone is immunity to energy drain.

The ScH hands out lots of immunities and abilities with a narrow focus. MiC has items that help rogues with undead. Spells can help, too. The amount of immunities are pretty nice, though. If you are in an undead heavy campaign, this will obviously be far more useful than any other setting. This makes it somewhat more difficult to rate. If we assume you will face at least 50% undead creatures, I can see this being a 10 / 14 or higher. If it is less than 50% undead, you will probably be irritated and drop to somewhere around 7 / 14 or lower. I guess I will split it somewhere and say 8 / 14. Hmmmm

2)
I’m not sure there is a good class in Mini to enter ScH. Favored Soul seems like a good choice, until you realize they have neither Turn Undead nor Knowledge (religion). The suggested cleric/rogue looks like the most straightforward. If you want to go something like paladin/rogue you could. Or use a ToB stance to gain the sneak attack and focus on your knowledge (religion) ranks somewhere else. It is somewhat open ended how to gather up your prereqs, but nothing feels right for the class to me except cleric/rogue. I’d enjoy some input here as to what would be a useful build. As noted above, I can see paths, but they feel disjointed. Perhaps its just me. I will focus on a cleric filling the undead-killer role and a cleric/rogue multiclass all the way.

Clerics do just fine without PrCs. Take the sun domain and shred those undead with your higher turning powers. Obviously the spells can be selectively chosen just for undead combat and tracking. There are plenty of spells to obtain similar immunities as your level increase as well. Items can fill any gaps you find. You also have the distinct advantage of being competent in fighting non-undead things and changing your abilities from day to day. Having said all that, it is NOT a fair comparison. Comparing a full caster to a non-caster is almost always going to fall on the side of the caster as being stronger and more versatile. But since the role is undead-killer, it should be pointed out. The other build I noted is the suggested entry. This is a more balanced comparison if you stick with rogue levels. With the same levels of cleric between the two builds (with and without the PrC), you compare rogue abilities. They don’t fare against undead as well as the ScH. The Cl/Ro needs more magic items to be the undead killer it dreams to be. I guess this makes me feel as though the PrC does what it sets out to do, (which is better than some!) but doesn’t do it as effectively as possible (which may not really be a fair comparison).

The things that go through my head when I ask “Could have taken…” bring me to ranger with undead Favored Enemy. Slap some undead-specific items onto that build and you could be doing splendidly.

At this point in the 3.5 publication process, the undead-killer niche hadn’t been fleshed out. ScH does a good job at killing undead while simultaneously not being a spell caster but having a spell caster suggested entry. Dread Necromancer is more focused on controlling undead than killing them, so the comparison may not be the best fit. Also, DN is another caster. Death Master is similarly a poor comparison, but definitely undead focused. As far as non caster opportunity costs go, it is pretty good. I will go with 3 / 4

3)
The prerequisites aren’t great. As usual, I don’t put a lot of weight on alignment restrictions, but Good is listed. Also, 8 ranks in knowledge (religion) guarantee a certain amount of levels. For the class specific prereqs, we have “able to turn undead” and sneak attack +2d6. There are a variety of ways to obtain the necessary prereqs, but they aren’t light. I’m undecided between medium and major here, but I’ll go with medium for now. I’m definitely open to changing this point. The biggest factor in my mind is how egregious previous “major” prereqs have been. This one isn’t as bad as Archmage or Loremaster, for example. 1 / 2

Skullclan Hunter 12 / 20

[liquidformat]

So for section 2 you are thinking about it a little wrong, this isn't the case of a cleric with a rogue dip but a rogue with a single level dip in Cloistered Cleric. Cloistered Cleric is a very powerful 1 level dip, you can easily pickup knowledge devotion which is always a powerful choice for a rogue especially without needing to drop a feat specifically on it, thought taking Educated or Able Learner is still a smart idea. Beyond that you can also pick up a myriad of options in Devotion feats and Domains, like swift-action movement (Travel Devotion), flight (Animal Devotion), summoned minions (Water Devotion), Slippery Mind (Liberation Domain), an illusionary clone/servant (Trickery Devotion), Improved Initiative (Time Domain), large bonus to attack or AC (Law Devotion), and Extra Turning to fuel your devotion feats (Undeath Domain).

In undead heavy campaigns I have often seen Cloistered Cleric 1/Rogue 4/Skullclan Hunter 3/Class X though with penetrating strike ACF Skullclan Hunter has greatly fallen off unless it is over 60% undead game, even then by level 10 most undead end up being pretty trivial unless they are full casters.

Here is what a Fist full of d6 says about Skullclan Hunter and I tend to agree:

A three level dip here isn’t too bad, especially in undead heavy campaigns. You need a cloistered cleric dip beforehand, but that’s not bad at all. In total, you’re losing two levels of Sneak Attack (including cleric dip) but you gain the ability to deal full damage to undead as well as a nice boost to will saves. If it’s a very undead-themed campaign, six levels of the class isn’t too bad an idea. You’ll lose another level of Sneak Attack but you get a permanent Protection from Evil as well as ability to ignore undead DR. Any further isn’t really worth it though.

The other options for entry Rogue 3/Paladin 4 to enter at level 8, Paladin 4/Rogue 1/Avenger 1 to enter at level 7, you could also do something like Paladin 8/Sword Sage 1 or 2 to enter at el 10 or 11...

over all I think 12/20 seems about right for this class.

[Mike Miller]

Tactical Soldier

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1)

The Tactical Soldier is a fairly standard martial warrior as far as fluff goes. AoOs are their main goal, which you don’t see too frequently. They have a standard fighter chassis with d10 HD, crap skill points, full BAB, good FORT, and all simple and martial weapons with all armor and shields except tower.

The PrC starts with Flanker, which allows for any adjacent square to count as the flanking square. Use a reach weapon for even better odds of flanking! What is especially nice here, is the fact that you can use squares that are impassable or occupied.

At level 2, Sidestep is gained as a bonus feat. This is a Mini. Feat which allows for an additional 5 ft step during AoOs. Many times I dislike the selected bonus feats, but this one is right up the PrC’s alley.

At level 3, you gain Interpose which is generally bad. Tanking in D&D doesn’t work like in MMOs and this PrC is no exception. Taking the damage instead of an adjacent ally can help in rare occasion, but I would rather have seen a different ability. Just wait a couple levels to really consider the downside of taking additional damage… -2 for being worse than a dead level

At level 4, you get a crappy ability called Defensive Shield. When you fight defensively, up to two allies can gain the +2 dodge bonus to AC without the attack penalty. You still take the penalty, though. I can count the number of times I’ve seen my players fight defensively on one hand. It isn’t a good option. -1

Ah, the best part of this class (in a bad way). Offensive Strike comes in at level 5 and frankly I’m offended that this is a class feature. Since talking about it with people, I’ve had some abusive uses for it pointed out. However, they revolve around having other people using it, such as thralls or what have you. This ability adds 4 to your attack and damage for a round, which is nice. However, it makes all incoming attacks auto threats and you fail all saving throws against spells for one round. Let that sink in for a moment. If you aren’t CDG’ing a helpless target with no one else around, when would you feel safe doing this? First, there would have to be no enemy spell casters. Second, there would have to be no enemies armed with high crit weapons. Then maybe lots of defensive buffs giving me tons of miss chances and rerolls, because that is really suicidal. -3

Dead levels… -2

Delayed Cleave at level 7 allows for cleave attacks based on allies killing enemies the TS just hit. I like it.

Unbalancing Blow at 8 is a full round action but if the attack hits, allows all threatening allies to attack the foe. Possibly good if you have lots of martial buddies. Considering the party makeups I’ve seen in my groups, this ability wouldn’t see much use.

For a capstone, the TS gains Reciprocal Strike. The TS gets a free AoO against a foe who successfully attacks and damages an ally, three times per day. I like this one, because it provides a bit of control. If the enemy suddenly is hit by the TS, it may stop aiming at the squishier target to prevent getting beat down.

Overall, there is a lot of garbage here. They could have cut out the bad and kept the good for a quality five level prestige class. Oh well. 6 / 14

2)

The obvious comparison is fighter. I could see Marshal taking TS, although the 3 /4 BAB is a little annoying. Barbarian and Ranger don’t seem as appropriate for comparison, as they focus more on damage, type of combat, and specific foes. TS is very specifically maneuver based fighting, which fighter can do with its boatload of feats. Marshal doesn’t have the feats of a fighter, but I don’t see any other Mini class taking TS.

As for the fighter, it is a classic base for tripper builds. Really, any maneuvers can be done with fighters: sunder, grapple, disarm, etc. I’ll use tripper as comparison because it is generally the most useful. The fighter tripper is online earlier than the TS and starts becoming less reliable about the same time the final abilities are starting for the TS. The TS could spend some resources towards tripping, particularly with a reach weapon, and make extra good use of the AoOs. In this case, I actually prefer the TS over the fighter.

The marshal probably looks worse. It has useful auras to increase its use of maneuvers as well as attack rolls, but it doesn’t gain much else. I definitely think the marshal works as a base for TS but you are better off with TS levels than straight marshal if you want to go the AoO route. I’ll probably have some arguments here, but I’m going with 4 / 4. The TS fills its role nicely.

3)

The prereqs are pretty minor. You will clearly be a martial, so the BAB is just a matter of time. The focus of the class is AoOs, so you will already want Combat Reflexes. Cleave does require power attack, so you really have to take 3 feats. However, they will serve your goal well. I am sticking with minor. 2 / 2

Tactical Soldier 12 / 20

[Saintheart]

I agree it's rare that tanks work in D&D, but there are elements of this that can work for a Crusader - the Interpose quality is a handy way to pick up to fuel Steely Resolve, and depending on the opposition Offensive Strike might do the same thing. As for the autofailed save - a generous DM might allow Zealous Surge to counter that since it's a reroll, and all Offensive Strike does is make your saving throw an autofail.

Offensive Strike also only makes successful attacks successful critical threats against you. The opponent still has to confirm the threat, i.e. the bane of all critical hit builds. Unless it's a suspiciously specific build, that generally only means double damage on the strike, since most critical multipliers -- natural attacks - are x2, with no bonus damage dice added in. That may or may not be a problem - and as said, the more damage, the more it fuels Steely Resolve.

It can also work if you've got a lot of AoOs: Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit.