PrC Evaluation Thread

[Kalkra]

Technically, Vow of Peace is made non-functional by the existence of bacteria, and Vow of Poverty is made non-functional by the existence of doors, but ignoring that two things I'll mention are that a) "magic items that protect" is really open-ended, and b) they also get sanctified spells, which is always nice with a small spell list.

Also, AoP is a alternative to Ur-Priest for good-aligned characters who want to theurge. Shadowcaster is the classic one, as most mysteries work with Vow of Peace, but you could pretty easily make a BFC Wizard that works too.

[Zombimode]

How so Vow of nonviolence and Vow of Peace are exalted feats, if I play human, I take sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty at level 1. VoP gives you an exalted feat every even number so level 2 I get Vow of Nonviolence and level 3 I get Vow of Peace, Level 1 I take Cleric, Level 2 and 3 Swordsage, level 4 I am an Apostle of Peace.

Minimum level for Apostel of Peace is 8, since you need 10 ranks of Diplomacy. And to my knowledge there is NO way arround the skill rank cap.

[el minster]

Well if you gain hit dice from being a lycanthrope then you cure your lycanthropy you keep the skills I heard somethingv like that

[Kaleph]

Minimum level for Apostel of Peace is 8, since you need 10 ranks of Diplomacy. And to my knowledge there is NO way arround the skill rank cap.

Actually that example was explicitly given with reference to a DM houseruling out the skill ranks requirements.

Anyhow the feat primary contact explicitly allow to increase by 1 the normal rank limit.

[Saintheart]

Minimum level for Apostel of Peace is 8, since you need 10 ranks of Diplomacy. And to my knowledge there is NO way arround the skill rank cap.

Polymorph into Dusk Giant, eat chickens, get Psychic Reformation cast on you is the most-frequently-cited way around the cap.

[liquidformat]

Actually that example was explicitly given with reference to a DM houseruling out the skill ranks requirements.

Anyhow the feat primary contact explicitly allow to increase by 1 the normal rank limit.

Yep that was specifically in reference to not having the skill requirements removed. I think at that point it would be a much better prc.

[Mike Miller]

Beloved of Valarian

Spoiler

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1)

This is a rather in-depth PrC and took me a lot longer to gather up the energy to breakdown than I expected. It has useful abilities, full BAB, and its own casting progression. The prerequisites are both straightforward and prohibitive. As for descriptive text, the PrC is about being a female humanoid devoting itself to a male unicorn. I’ll leave it at that and move on to the chassis: d10 HD, full BAB, good FORT, 2 skill points with a tiny subset of useful skills, unique divine spell progression. The class does gain proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, and small shields which is neat.

The unique divine spellcasting is a wisdom based 1 through 4 level small per day type casting with cleric prep. The spell list isn’t fantastic, but it is decent considering how limited it is, including spells like the cure line, SNA, restoration, and FoM.

Call Unicorn is a defining feature of the class, after all, you are a beloved of the unicorn god... You gain a unicorn companion and all the lovely SLAs that entails. Don’t let it die or you have to wait until a level up in this class to get a new one. There are no explanations for what happens if you hit max level of BoV and the unicorn dies. SoL I guess? At the same time, you gain telepathic bond such that you can communicate telepathically with your unicorn within over 100 miles! This has a somewhat dubious upgrade at level 6 to include any animal native to the unicorn’s home forest. Also, you don’t age for some reason. Purity of soul blah blah unicorn [expletive deleted]

At level 2, which could be character level 9, you gain ethereal jaunt once per day which can also affect the unicorn if mounted. This could definitely have some fun uses. I would have liked to see more than once per day, but this is a good one.

At level 3 you get some minor skill boosts.

At level 4, uncanny dodge.

Level 5 is your dead level. Hmm

Level 6 gives you the lovely upgrade from unicorn to Celestial Charger! It’s morphin’ time!

Level 7 sees more minor skill boosts (both because there are additional boosts and they are less useful).

Level 8 gets Holy Smite once per day. Once per day abilities aren’t great but ok.

Level 9 has the bizarre Wood Repulsion ability. Wood weapons take a penalty when attacking you and also your unicorn if mounted. This is….crappy. Especially at around level 16+ when a -2 penalty likely won’t matter much. At least it is vague enough to count weapons partially made from wood.

Level 10 has the lovely capstone of Mass Baleful Polymorph once per day. Even once per day, that has some real combat-ending potential.

Overall, pretty useful. I don’t like dead levels and those two skill boost levels really leave something to be desired. I’ll go with 10 / 14 for now.

2)

There is so much going on here, it is somewhat difficult to pick a good comparison point. I suppose cleric, fighter, and paladin are the go to from core. I won’t even go into a lengthy comparison with fighter. This wins, easily. The unicorn SLAs alone win. Also having a decent spell list with full bab wins.

Paladin is a better comparison as they also have a companion. I am pretty certain a paladin can also have a unicorn, but I don’t know about a celestial charger. The spell lists are similar too. I think a paladin/BoV is better off than a straight paladin since paladin doesn’t really get much new after the lower level abilities. One point in the paladin’s favor is three feats that aren’t taxed. I admit I don’t have any experience playing paladins, so I could use some input here.

Cleric can fill the role BoV does, but not as easily. They don’t have much in the way of mounted going their way so they’d have to invest there. Obviously the spellcasting is superior, but if you want to be a gish with a mount, BoV pulls it off a lot easier. You need to use resources, such as spells per day, to match the fighting ability as a cleric. The cleric can do it, but you are probably better off using BoV for the mounted gish. You’ll enter at level 11 if straight cleric, which is fine…. But worth noting.

I’ll go with 3 / 4

Just as an additional note, the fluff really makes it sound like a druid variant. I suppose druid is a good comparison even though it doesn’t feel like an entry point. They both have companions and divine casting. Hmmm, in that case I suppose druid is the winner. Druid is always the winner.

3)

The prerequisites are stealthy, being broken down on two pages. I dislike fluff prerequisites and Gender is no exception. However, I won’t dock it for that. Alignment is also required to be good, whatever. Fluff is fluff. As for the real prereqs, BAB 7 will happen eventually, although that is high enough to be prohibitive to half bab classes. You won’t even be eligible to enter the class until level 15 if you have half bab the entire time. Fortunately, the class isn’t really geared towards half bab classes. By the time you can have Ride 10, you can necessarily have Knowledge (nature) 5 even as cross classed. The feats certainly leave something to be desired in moutned combat, sacred vow, and vow of chastity. The Special prereq is primarily more fluff, but those feat taxes, ouch. I am a bit torn between medium and major prereqs in this case. If your DM forces all the fluff prereqs, it is a definite major prereq. If there is leniency in those, I could be persuaded to go with medium. For now, I’ll stick with major. 0 / 2

Beloved of Valarian 13 / 20

[Troacctid]

I think it's important not to undersell the fact that a celestial charger is also a 7th-level cleric with full access to the cleric spell list.

[NigelWalmsley]

Which you don't get until 13th level. At which point 4th level spells are not all that impressive. It's casting on par with someone's cohort's cohort's cohort. And it doesn't progress.

[Doctor Despair]

Minimum level for Apostel of Peace is 8, since you need 10 ranks of Diplomacy. And to my knowledge there is NO way arround the skill rank cap.

Someone mentioned Primary Contact and polymorphing into a dusk giant with psychic reformation.

Also of note are having a bard inspire greatness with psychic reformation, or taking three bloodline "levels" while you are level 1 (not raising your ECL), raising your max skill cap by 3.

[liquidformat]

I am comfortable with 13/20 for Beloved of Valarian, I wish the celestial charger progressed again at level 10 or they put in a progression mechanic, just changing things slightly and making the unicorn/charger into a cohort following normal cohort rules would be very powerful.

[noce]

Regarding Beloved of Valarian, it's strange that you mentioned Druid while not mentioning Ranger, you know, the base class with full bab, light armor, a companion, 4th level nature based spells. Anyway, I'm ok with 13/20.

I'd say -1 instead of 0 on prereq, just because the prc is forcing you to play a chaste girl that for some reasons loves unicorns.
In a not-so-serious table other players will look at you funny, while in a rp-heavy table, in a realistic middleage setting, it is quite difficult for girls to remain chaste.

[Zombimode]

I'd say -1 instead of 0 on prereq, just because the prc is forcing you to play a chaste girl that for some reasons loves unicorns.

I don't see why the fluff restrictions would merit any reduction since if you plan to play a BoV that is what you want to play anyway. It's not really a restriction.

[NigelWalmsley]

I don't see why the fluff restrictions would merit any reduction since if you plan to play a BoV that is what you want to play anyway. It's not really a restriction.

I don't think that's really true. I could imagine plenty of characters who would want to ride unicorns that aren't "chaste girl that loves unicorns". Or players who just found the class mechanically interesting but weren't particularly attracted to the flavor. Heavily restrictive fluff is a downside.

[Mike Miller]

Regarding Beloved of Valarian, it's strange that you mentioned Druid while not mentioning Ranger, you know, the base class with full bab, light armor, a companion, 4th level nature based spells. Anyway, I'm ok with 13/20.

Wow. I legit skipped ranger when I was going over this. Whoops! I didn't even think of it once.

[liquidformat]

I don't think that's really true. I could imagine plenty of characters who would want to ride unicorns that aren't "chaste girl that loves unicorns". Or players who just found the class mechanically interesting but weren't particularly attracted to the flavor. Heavily restrictive fluff is a downside.

I mechanically like the class but find the fluff side somewhere between questionably comical to down right creepy. Maybe they have to be chased so they don't pull a Catherine the Great?...

[NigelWalmsley]

I mechanically like the class but find the fluff side somewhere between questionably comical to down right creepy. Maybe they have to be chased so they don't pull a Catherine the Great?...

I'm pretty sure it's just a unicorn thing. They're typically associated with purity motifs. I'm completely sure "what if they bang the unicorn" was not on anybody's radar when writing the class.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, that comes straight from unicorn folklore.

[Mike Miller]

Celestial Mystic

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1)

The Celestial Mystic has an interest in the nature of good and seeks it out. The chassis is what you’d expect from a casting PrC: half BAB, d4 HD, 4 skill points per level, good WILL, 9 / 10 casting progression. The abilities are mostly defensive in nature and I wish this class had been seven levels long for the seven heavens fluff.

At level 1 is the Blessing of the Silver Heaven. You gain elec resist 10 and +2 on saves vs disease, poison, and more interestingly petrification. In case that wasn’t enough (which seems like plenty for a single level by WotC), you also gain a permanent magic circle against evil effect with caster level equal to your character level. Nifty!

At level two, you can cast spells that have the archon or celestial component. There aren’t many with those components worth casting, though. Meh

At level three is the Blessing of the Golden Heaven. You gain immunity to death spells and magical death effects. Also nifty

Levels four and six are dead levels- another reason it would have been nice if the class were seven levels long.

Level five is the Blessing of the Pearly Heaven. This has two effects: a pseudo-uncanny dodge and a pseudo-bardic knowledge check.

Level seven allows the CM to cure up to three times his class level in HP each day like a paladin. Also, he gains immunity to disease and poison while also gaining a bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects.

Level eight is the Blessing of the Platinum Heaven. This reminds me of the archmage’s arcane blast (or whatever it was called) and this one isn’t any better. Long range 4d6 + 1d6 per spell level spent on the RTA. Underwhelming at best, particularly for when you receive it.

Level nine is the Blessing of the Glittering Heaven. You gan SR 20 and DR 10/unholy. The SR isn’t impressive at this level, but the DR should be useful.

The capstone is Blessing of the Illuminated Heaven. You gain an aura of positive energy. Extraordinary fast healing 2 for living creatures and undead with fewer HD than 10 are unable to enter the aura.

Overall, there are a lot of useful abilities. The dead levels suck and some things can be replicated with magic items and spells. I am tempted to rate it over 10, but the weak Platinum attack, minimal use celestial spells, and two dead levels bring it down a notch (and that doesn’t even consider replacing some abilities with spells and such). If only it had been seven levels…. I will go with 9 / 14.

2)

As for opportunity costs, I will start with the suggested entry points: Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, and… MONK. That’s right. The book suggests monks take this class. You know, the class that requires FOURTH level spells to enter. Anyway… I looked over the archon / celestial component spells and only one or two really struck me as interesting. They weren’t interesting enough for me to remember them a few days later though, so maybe if someone has any worth mentioning they can chime in. Otherwise it comes down to whether you have arcane or divine magic, really. How many resources do you need to spend in order to replicate the abilities of this class? I think losing one caster level is worth the abilities of the class. The real cost in my mind comes in the form of those three feat taxes. That is a lot of MM, crafting, etc that you are missing out on. Feats are precious and three feats that don’t affect your casting or power are questionable. Without flaws or a racial bonus feat, you are looking at all your feats being spent prior to entering. The comparison between someone geared for entering this PrC and someone just playing out their base class could potentially feel very different despite having the same class list. Maybe it isn’t character-ending, but it is noteworthy. This alone could be worth a 2 rating here, but I’ll go with 3 / 4.

3)

These prereqs are so-so. You’ll gain the 4th level spells just by leveling and the skills ranks are something you’ll likely want. The three feat taxes are much worse. I think medium fits here 1 / 2

Celestial Mystic: 13 / 20

[noce]

Not even counting access to bonus spells (a thing typically sought after by sorcerers), for a single lost caster level a wiz/sorc gets:

• electricity resistance 10, spell resistance 20, DR 10, aoe fast healing 2
• uncanny dodge, bardic knowledge, lay on hands
• +2 vs petrification and enchantment and outright immunity to charm, compulsion, death effects, disease, poison
• spontaneous long range no-save no-sr non-resistible damage effect
• increased skill points per level

This is SO MUCH. I'd give it 12/14.

On the other hand, three feats are three feats, and you're set to LG, so for me it's 2/4 on opportunity cost.

My total: 15/20

EDITED: I was wrong about BAB.

[liquidformat]

Celestial Mystic
2)

As for opportunity costs, I will start with the suggested entry points: Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, and… MONK. That’s right. The book suggests monks take this class. You know, the class that requires FOURTH level spells to enter. Anyway… I looked over the archon / celestial component spells and only one or two really struck me as interesting. They weren’t interesting enough for me to remember them a few days later though, so maybe if someone has any worth mentioning they can chime in. Otherwise it comes down to whether you have arcane or divine magic, really. How many resources do you need to spend in order to replicate the abilities of this class? I think losing one caster level is worth the abilities of the class. The real cost in my mind comes in the form of those three feat taxes. That is a lot of MM, crafting, etc that you are missing out on. Feats are precious and three feats that don’t affect your casting or power are questionable. Without flaws or a racial bonus feat, you are looking at all your feats being spent prior to entering. The comparison between someone geared for entering this PrC and someone just playing out their base class could potentially feel very different despite having the same class list. Maybe it isn’t character-ending, but it is noteworthy. This alone could be worth a 2 rating here, but I’ll go with 3 / 4.

3)

These prereqs are so-so. You’ll gain the 4th level spells just by leveling and the skills ranks are something you’ll likely want. The three feat taxes are much worse. I think medium fits here 1 / 2

Celestial Mystic: 13 / 20

Aren't you double counting the feat prerequisite here? you took a point out from opportunity cost and a point from prereqs both because of the 3 feats....

Celestial Mystic is medium BAB, not half. Also 4 + INT is more skill points than what you’d expect from a casting PrC.

Not even counting access to bonus spells (a thing typically sought after by sorcerers), for a single lost caster level a wiz/sorc gets:

• electricity resistance 10, spell resistance 20, DR 10, aoe fast healing 2
• uncanny dodge, bardic knowledge, lay on hands
• +2 vs petrification and enchantment and outright immunity to charm, compulsion, death effects, disease, poison
• spontaneous long range no-save no-sr non-resistible damage effect
• increased skill points per level, increased bab (useful for touch spells)

This is SO MUCH. I'd give it 12/14.

On the other hand, three feats are three feats, and you're set to LG, so for me it's 2/4 on opportunity cost.

My total: 15/20

I'm AFB but d&d tools is saying this is half bab not medium bab.
Even still the chase is strictly better than wizard/sorcerer and slightly worse than cleric. The one complaint I have is the skill list sucks. Alignment is a goofy requirement that I don't think warrants any change in points since how alignment is handled depends from table to table and in the end is a fluff requirement.

Over all I think 15/20 seems right.

[Troacctid]

Call faithful servants is very good to the point of being kinda overpowered, FWIW. Archon components are also kinda good if you're taking Blessed of the Seven Sisters as a feat.

The abilities you get here are legitimately great. The main problem is how expensive they are in prerequisites and lost casting.

[Edea]

I wonder if the dusk giant poly/psy ref combo's ever been used in an actual game to get around a rank cap for a PrC skill req.

[Zanos]

I mechanically like the class but find the fluff side somewhere between questionably comical to down right creepy. Maybe they have to be chased so they don't pull a Catherine the Great?...

Wait until you hear about Eunuch Warlock. Hint: it's what it says on the tin.

[Mike Miller]

Champion of Gwynharwyf

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1)
The Champion of Gwynharwyf is both a mouthful and a barbarian-but-spellcaster-do-gooder class. It has a d12 HD, full BAB, good FORT, 4 skill ranks per level, and a 1-4 level unique spell progression. Wisdom based prepared casting with a decent list is good stuff for an otherwise martial character. The list is short, as to be expected from this style of PrC, but does have some useful ones. The rage stacks and grows along with standard barbarian rage, which is nice.

At level one, the CoG can detect evil at will. Also, smite evil once per day as usual going up by one use per day at 5th and 9th.

Divine grace, as paladin, at level 2. Also, Furious Casting at level two to cast spells from the CoG list while raging.

DR starts at level 3 with 2/- and goes up slowly until 5/- at level 10. Another bonus at this level is +2 morale bonsu vs enchantments.

At level four, raging can cause nearby enemies to become shaken. The DC is based off of an intimidate check, so it could be a decently high check.

At level five, CoG gains resist 5 for acid, cold, and elec. These go up to 10 at level 10.

At level seven, the CoG is is immune to charm and compulsion spells.

Overall, this is a pretty neat class. It takes barbarian and makes it a half-caster. The last three levels of the class are questionable, though. You really only get “+numbers” and one 4th level spell. However, the earlier levels are mostly packed with goodies. 11 / 14

2)
I know rage can be gained from non-barbarian methods, but this class is pretty clearly laid out for barbarians. As such, the primary point of comparison should be barbarian. It is pretty solidly a win for CoG, as the PrC progresses rage, provides DR, and throws spellcasting on top of it. Even stretching opportunity costs a bit in order to fill out this character role, CoG seems like a solid contender. Let’s say you just want to go smashy smashy “barbarian” and roleplay the rage aspect. You could do fighter or paladin and even have a mage cast Rage on you. However, you are still losing out on the fast DR progression and general gish powers. I haven’t read this class before and now I really like it. 4 / 4

3)
The prereqs aren’t bad. BAB is inevitable and the ranks make sense for the character. The feat tax in the form of two feats is a bit more questionable so I will go with medium 1 / 2

Champion of Gwynharwyf 16 / 20

[liquidformat]

So even though level 8,9, and 10 are just plus numbers the things they are adding are nice, an extra rage, extra smite, more DR, better res, and finally a 3rd and 4th level spell. Over all that is quite a bit for these three levels.

Also an important thing to note about the feat prerequisites is Righteous Wrath forces anyone you damage to save or be shaken which is honestly a great feat for a fear based barbarian builds it also single handedly removes the negatives of frenzy if you take a frenzied berserker dip.

Over all I think 18/20

[NigelWalmsley]

I feel like your rating system is fundamentally broken if it's giving this a 16/20, but Archmage an 11/20.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I feel like your rating system is fundamentally broken if it's giving this a 16/20, but Archmage an 11/20.

Champion of Gwynharwyf is one of the best PrCs ever written, as far as improving its intended entry. One of the relative few earning the "Marvelous" ranking on the old PrC tier list, alongside Rainbow Servant for Warmages, Ur-Priest, Warshaper for noncasting entries, and Planar Shepherd, to name a few of the famous ones.

I'll also go with 18/20.

[Cygnia]

Now I'm spitballing a Healer 10/BoV 10, rockin' the double unicorns. Granted, Mounted Combat's a weird feat for a Healer to take, but not so far-fetched.

ETA: Dang -- can't rock double unicorns. Still, Healer might be an interesting way to go, especially if you have the unicorn/charger as your bodyguard.

[NigelWalmsley]

Champion of Gwynharwyf is one of the best PrCs ever written, as far as improving its intended entry.

And this is a metric we care about why? We don't tier classes based on how good they are at fulfilling their "intended concept", we tier them based on how good they actually are. Basically every Archmage is going to be better than basically every Champion of Gwynharwyf. Any rating system that rates the latter higher than the former is misleading at best.