PrC Evaluation Thread

[Troacctid]

The bonus exalted feats are real. Aside from there being actual good exalted feats like Nymph's Kiss and Celestial Familiar that you're actively happy to get, it can also let you cheaply pick up the prerequisites for celestial mystic or sentinel of Bharrai, either of which makes a great follow-up.

[noce]

Looking at the Exalted Arcanist class features, I feel it gets class features way better than a 10/14 score would imply.

Even on a standard sorcerer, you get more skill points, two (quite good) feats, expanded class spell list, expanded known spell list.
I must reiterate: there are 36 sanctified spells, and many are very good.

On a Warmage, it is reasonable to rule you also know the Exalted spell list, which counts 23 additional spells for a total of 59 spells.*
You're not just expanding your list, you're expanding your role from a blaster to a more competent general purpose caster, a deep change in character power and utility.

I'd go with 12/14 here. It gives many things you will love to have.

Opportunity cost: it's not much. A caster level is a caster level, but many sorcerers accept this when taking Fiendbloded or Sandshaper, and frankly Exalted Arcanist doesn't seem a worse reason to lose a caster level. On the plus side, you're not dedicating half your build to EA since it's only 5 levels long, so by level 11 you got all this and can enter another PrC. The opportunity cost of feats is detailed below, I'd say they limit your choices but they definitely have uses (and it's two prereq feats for two bonus feats, after all). For me it's 3/4.

Regarding prerequisites: those feats are quite good depending on the party. In an exalted campaign, you can just throw fireballs on the party without hurting them, and you even deal increased damage to many enemies. And when you haven't the right tool for the job (or you just failed your knowledge check to assay enemy immunities), you can always contribute with damaging spells (this is in fact more a sorcerer thing than a warmage thing, given the number of spells known). Anyway 1/2 seems right to me.

TOTAL SCORE: 16/20


* It is reasonable because, outside of two bonus spells at first level, you wouldn't be able to access that list. The wording isn't "you add these to your class list" but rather "you can chose from both lists", but it's just another way to say the same thing.

[Mike Miller]

Ah, that makes sense.

Anyone else have thoughts on the Emissary or Exalted Arcanist? I feel pretty comfortable with the scores.

Next up is Fist of Raziel, and I've never played a paladin so I'm not sure how to judge it.

Slow down, friend. It hasn't even been a day yet for EA. Give people a couple days to post.

[Mike Miller]

Fist of Raziel

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1)
A knight waging a holy war against evil. While reading the fluff text, I misread the part about Sealtiel as defending communism and I was really confused for a moment. Anyway, the FoR has a d10 HD, 2 skill points per level, full BAB, good FORT, and 9 / 10 casting. This immediately strikes me as something that could be used in a gish build with its full BAB and near full casting progression.

As we’ve seen elsewhere, FoR also gains a constant magic circle against evil effect at level one. It also gains smite evil once per day that explicitly stacks with paladin smites. Every odd level provides more bonuses to the smite. At first level it starts as good-aligned. At 3rd, it auto-confirms crits even with magical effects related to crits. At 5th, it counts as holy. At 7th, it deals +2d8 instead of the +2d6 against evil outsiders and evil undead (“Fiendsmite”). At 9th, nearby evil targets also take damage on successful smites.

Fourth level gains the bonus feat Sanctify Martial Strike, which is just a minor amount of extra damage to evil.

Sixth level brings Sunder Evil Item, which sounds really niche.

The capstone is Holy Martial Strike which makes any weapon you wield holy, even when not smiting. Considering anything can be an improvised weapon, it sounds like it could be fairly amusing on top of the 2d6 extra damage to evil. Holy fork! Holy quill! Holy pillow! Holy sock! Really, the mental imagery is endless.

I don’t think highly of smite evil, especially with its unforgiving “you miss, you lose your limited resource” functionality. FoR does make it fairly effective, though. There are a couple dead levels and a couple levels that feel like dead levels. Overall, you aren’t really gaining options from this PrC so much as specific damage. Unless you are up against evil outsiders, evil undead, or evil items, your levels are functionally worse than fighter levels with the sole exception being that it progresses casting 9 / 10. 7 / 14I could see this being lower, but IDK if I would want to go higher…

2)
As for opportunity costs, the most likely entry points are paladin and, to a lesser extent, cleric. Cleric enters a couple levels later courtesy of the BAB req. Paladin loses out on lay on hands progression and gaining a better mount. Cleric basically just gains from this one with the one lost caster level. I actually think FoR is better for both of them, unless you are focusing on mounted combat. I’ll go with 4 / 4.

3)
These prereqs are borderline minor. BAB and casting divine favor are definitely minor. The necessary skill ranks are low. Power Attack is a staple and Servant of the Heavens isn’t great, but it could have been worse (think toughness!). I’ll go with medium, because I think there was enough internal deliberation that I must not think it is minor. It is close, though. 1 / 2

Fist of Raziel: 12 / 20

[noce]

Fist of Raziel not only gives more mileage out of your smites at every odd level, it also gives you a total of 5 additional smite uses. It's remarkably more than any other class, including base paladin. Paladin 6/ FoR 10 has 7 uses/day, not so few.
I'd give +2 on power for this.

Regarding cleric: among the very few PRC with both full bab and almost full casting, it is so easy to enter, and with so little fluffy requirements, that it certainly should be listed among the best cleric Gish prcs, expecially when dmm persist is not an option.
4/4 on opportunity cost seems too little when the opportunity cost is "take the best PRC for this commonly played character concept".

Overall I'd go with 14/20.

[liquidformat]

I really didn't have anything to add for Emissary of Barachiel or Exalted Arcanist. Emissary of Barachiel is kind of a hot mess that is kind of a pain to enter and Exalted Arcanist is a decent prc for sorcerers and warmages not so much for bards.

Fist of Raziel is a very good prc, it is one of the better choices for paladins as it gives great bang for your buck and is a decent choice for clerics too. I think 14/20 seems correct for this prc.

[Wildstag]

Fist of Raziel slightly disappoints me, but only because it does the whole "YOU MUST BE LG to be a frontline cleric" thing. Thank goodness Ordained Champion had that section about adapting it to other deities of War.

It's a great upgrade to cleric though. Makes you rely less on Divine Power. I appreciate the capstone as building upon the previous ability that Smite attacks are also Holy.

Also I love how it's basically a warrior alternative to Sacred Exorcist. Or at least, it focuses on the same things, but goes about its endgoals through martial means instead of magic means.

[Mike Miller]

Initiate of Pistis Sophia

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1)
The path of this PrC requires great sacrifice, most often being single-classed monk. Great sacrifice indeed! Anyway, d8 HD, 3 / 4 BAB, all good saves and stacking with monk levels for AC bonus, UAS damage, flurry, speed, and ki strike.

First level sees a bonus feat which may not actually be of any use to your character. If you did not take stunning fist, it does nothing.
Level two gains detect evil at will and smite once per day. Meh
Level three gains uncanny dodge.
At fourth level, you get a sacred vow (and again at 7 and 10). You also gain elec resist 5.
Fifth is basically a dead level, just increasing smite to 2/day.
Sixth is improved uncanny dodge.
Seventh is elec resist 10 and a sacred vow.
Eight is just smite 3/day.
Nine is improved evasion, which you would have had several levels ago as a monk.
Ten is celestial transformation which is just a change to outside with DR 10/unholy. This capstone isn’t fantastic, but it sounds great after the previous pile of crap.Also, another sacred vow.

This class is nothing fancy and I don’t think adding sacred vows and smite really makes this a holy monk. On the surface, sure. Nothing about this really says holy monk to me. The uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge are probably the most useful abilities and that DR could definitely have showed up sooner. At least the monk abilities stack nicely. 6 / 14

2)

The only real comparison point is monk. It is a sad day when I suggest taking straight monk over a PrC. This is one of those days. Unless you really want an abstinent, nonviolent, poor monk, this is just not the way to go. I originally compared a bunch of abilities here, until I realized the prereqs require 10 levels of monk (see below). As such, I think you are even better off as monk than previously. The opportunity cost here is huge. You are looking at reaching the capstone after reaching epic and the abilities you gain here are not nearly as useful at the levels you get them as compared to monk. 0 / 4

3)

As for prereqs, I am starting out by saying Major. You need 10 monk levels. Why 10? You need sanctify Ki strike. A prereq for that feat, is Ki strike (lawful), which you get at monk 10. I’m not familiar with ki strike progression outside of monk, but unless there is a way to get that sooner, you will not be taking all 10 levels of this PrC pre-epic. If you can’t take this feat until level 12 (or later), you aren’t entering this class until that point. That many levels of one class is major regardless of what that base class is. You are very limited with options at that point. The only possible exception that I know of would be VoP feat at level 10 to get all 10 levels in pre-epic. That is a questionable choice in and of itself. 0 / 2

Initiate of Pistis Sophia: 6 / 20

[Troacctid]

Monk of the enabled hand (Dragon Compendium) gets you ki strike (lawful) as early as ECL 6. That's the only other way to do it AFAIK, unless you count monk/ninja multiclass with Ascetic Stalker.

[liquidformat]

Yeah horrible PRC, could have been so much better if it gave you half-celestial or saint template, or really anything... 6/20 seems ok for this maybe a bit too high?

[Mike Miller]

I had a hard time narrowing down the score be wise it feels like it should have SOME points, but not many.

[Mike Miller]

Lion of Talisid

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1)
Good and nature together at last. The Lion of Talisid has a d8 HD, full casting progression, 3 / 4 BAB, good FORT and WILL saves, and 4 skill points per level with expected skills.

At first level and beyond your levels in LoT stack with druid and ranger levels for determining the power of your animal companion. You also gain Lion’s Courage, which grants immunity to fear and a sacred bonus to will saves against other mind-affecting effects.
Second level is scent. This would be better on something other than druid, as so many druid animal companions already have scent. Still, it is a good ability.
At third level, you gain wild shape, which stacks with druid (and should with wild shape ranger) although at -2 class level. At fourth level, you gain the exalted companion bonus feat, which specifically grants you access to the Musteval guardinal due to PrC prereqs.
At fifth level, pounce!

Sixth is basically a dead level as a druid because you should already have wild shape (large).
Seventh level sees Lion’s Swiftness which is basically a limited duration (1 round / class level / day) extraordinary Haste effect.
Eighth and ninth are dead levels.
Tenth level is a 3/day supernatural version of the leonal’s roar spell. With a DC based on CHA, this may end up having a noticeably lower DC than your standard spells, even if it is 20+CHA mod.

This class feels decent. Giving up 2 levels of wild shape is unfortunate, but you still have full casting progression. Scent, pounce, (Ex) haste, and a somewhat useful (Su) capstone make for good times. However, you have effectively five dead levels as a druid. You really only lose out on huge elemental wild shape as far as the odd stacking rule goes. The fluff of it prefers cat forms, but there is no reason to feel limited to those. 10 / 14

2)
Ranger and druid for opportunity cost. I think you should take this if you go ranger 8 or (for some reason) druid 3/ranger 3. Your animal companion is better with LoT than as a straight ranger because the class level is added, not half class level. Also, you get wild shape, which ranger doesn’t have (unless wild shape ranger and even then it isn’t as good as a druid). The more difficult comparison is druid. You really only lose thousand faces, timeless body, and huge elemental form. Venom immunity is pushed back until after this PrC is done, but hey, you still get it. With the above benefits, I feel like this is a solid option for a druid and is probably better. I’m going with 4 / 4

3)
The prereqs are fairly easy. Druids and rangers will both gain the prereqs naturally. The one feat is the only thing you need to go out of your way for, so I say minor. 2 / 2

Lion of Talisid: 16 / 20eggynack referred to this class as "reasonably viable."

[Endarire]

@OP: Lion of Talsid is a PrC that seemed interesting for my NG Druid, but I ignored it because Druid and Planar Shepherd were better. Progressing my casting, animal companion, and Wild Shape mattered that much.

[Mike Miller]

@OP: Lion of Talsid is a PrC that seemed interesting for my NG Druid, but I ignored it because Druid and Planar Shepherd were better. Progressing my casting, animal companion, and Wild Shape mattered that much.

Well, LoT increases all of those FWIW. That makes this PrC better than most druid-aimed PrCs.

[liquidformat]

I actually think where this PRC really shines is with a wild shape ranger or even better wild shape mystic ranger. Specifically with a wild shape mystic ranger you can enter thee class at level 6 and it is quite powerful. Best part for wild shape rangers is this opens up wild shape for you giving you access to large and tiny forms. Also you really don't loose much with a ranger compared to druid. I feel like 16/20 seems fair, though it might be slightly higher as a ranger prc specifically since those 'dead levels' aren't dead levels anymore.

[Wildstag]

With Mystic Ranger you'd have to multiclass though, since it doesn't get animal companions. You'd have to multiclass to druid to pick up the PrC.

[liquidformat]

With Mystic Ranger you'd have to multiclass though, since it doesn't get animal companions. You'd have to multiclass to druid to pick up the PrC.

oh dang good catch, unless you could get your dm to be ok with wild cohort mystic ranger is right out...

[Wildstag]

So what's next? The chaste prophet? It's not up my alley, but it looks kinda boring.

[Grim Reader]

I realize I am late to the party here but... people are marking down Endurance for the martial classes. Now the feat itself is... not good, but it is the prerequisite to Steadfast Determination. (No longer fail Fort saves on a natural 1, use Con instead of Wis for Will bonus) For a poor Will save martial, SD is gold, and Endurance is the prerequisite.

Dragon Disciple has always seemed like an Epic PrC with accidentally low prerequisites to me. Untyped ability bonuses after you stop getting BaB and bonus spell slots of level 10+. The rest is garbage at epic of course, but its not the worst pic for an epic caster.

[Mike Miller]

I have the next one ready, I just need a moment to post. It is the worst one to date, I believe.

[Mike Miller]

Prophet of Erathaol

Spoiler: Erathaol

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1)
The PoE is a seer, visionary, and seeming joke of a PrC. I’m not sure if I can bear to give this a full evaluation. It is 10 levels long, with a single ability and 9 / 10 casting progression. ONE ability in TEN levels. The ability in question can be used to duplicate a variety of divinatory spells and knowledge checks. However, this is not something you take levels for. Just be a caster and take some divine spells. I won’t go so far as to say it ranks as an NPC class like the Warchief did. The Warchief had abilities that just didn’t make as much sense on a PC as an NPC. The PoE is just NOT enough for a class. There is simply no justification for taking a single ability and calling it a class. The only expansion of that ability that I haven’t mentioned yet is the downside that you are controlled by a celestial to receive the divinations. Such control leaves you open to possession by fiends or ghosts and you might not even know it happens. This just sounds like poor DM railroading. 0 / 14

2)
There is no reason to take this over a casting class with divination capability. 0 / 4

3)
So, prereqs! Some straightforward casting skill ranks, relatively high though, the ability to cast 4th level spells, and FOUR, count ‘em, FOUR feats. Spell Focus (Divination) is among them, which ranks as one of the least useful spell focus feats. You are looking at minimum level 7 (for fourth level spells) for entry. However, if you don’t have a bonus feat somewhere, you aren’t entering until 10 because of those feats. It is on the verge of medium and major, but I am leaning towards major because this is realistically a four feat tax entry. That is the highest feat tax I’ve seen to date. 0 / 2

Prophet of Erathaol: 0 / 20

[Edea]

I would understand if Ecstasy actually turned you into an angel like some sort of crazy wild shape variant, but...yeah, what even is this class. Its single redeeming quality is all good saves, and yet given the pre-reqs...I think you're better off just taking monk levels.

[Saintheart]

Well, it has a monk's save progression, which is an improvement on a bog-standard cleric's, and the 5/10 BAB isn't a problem since you have Divine Power. The problem, of course, is that it doesn't give you anything else.

The vulnerability to (evil) possession is easily negated: if you've got Magic Circle Against Evil, or even Protection Against Evil, cast on you when you go into Ecstasy, then hey, fiend of possession can't touch you even while you're frothing at the mouth and channelling Thor or whoever.

The only thing it seems to have going for it is if you dip it. If you can live with utilising the Ecstasy ability once per day, then at least the ability scales: the Knowledge check it can duplicate is character level +5, not class level. So if you were going the path of the Knowledge Devotion cleric, a dip in this would give you a half-decent modifier for those occasions when your DM throws that one monster at you that isn't covered by your hard-earned skill ranks.

Course, I doubt it's worth giving up a spell level for that. Apart from that its only real value is for the lulz of enabling the party paladin to freely commit atrocities which you can then fix up on a daily or even by-encounter basis by duplicating atonement. 1/20.

[noce]

Consider entering Prophet as a Sorcerer.

Now you give up 1 caster level and 4 feats and get:

• improved hp
• improved fort
• improved ref
• a 1st, a 2nd, a 3rd, a 4th and a 5th level spells usable class level/day
• "I know that" ability, which shares the level/day uses

I know, those spells aren't typically a first pick on a sorcerer, but you effectively get to use them as if you knew them.
Even better, since Ecstasy is SU, the save for those is 10 + half character level + charisma, so the save stays pretty relevant on a sorcerer (though it's mostly Enthrall). The fact some of them aren't on the sorc spell list is a bonus.
EDIT: you cannot choose which effect to produce, this decision is up to a creature that is more intelligent, more wise and of a greater type of Good than you (in other words, the DM).

Remember to pick the pretty strong divination spell Unluck, to make a use of Spell Focus.
While you're at it, also take the Insightful Divination feat, a very very good feat that requires SF Divination.


To sum up: I'm not saying this PrC is strong, but it obviously is not 0/20.
I'd say 6/20 (5/14, 1/4, 0/2).

[Edea]

I know, those spells aren't typically a first pick on a sorcerer, but you effectively get to use them as if you knew them.

No, you don't.

Ecstasy's effect is 100% in the hands of the DM. That's not some drop-down list you get to just pick results from; every last Ecstasy the character ever tries can just be repeated Knowledge (basketweaver sex ritual) checks.

Now, that can go in the opposite direction; the DM can even have Ecstacy produce miracles on a regular basis if s/he wants. Those are just 'rules of thumb' given in the description; it's not a codified set of abilities.

But I always assume the DM's a RAW-wielding buttcake for ratings discussions, in which case it's just gonna spit out useless skill check results and might as well not even be listed as an ability.

[noce]

No, you don't.

Ecstasy's effect is 100% in the hands of the DM. That's not some drop-down list you get to just pick results from; every last Ecstasy the character ever tries can just be repeated Knowledge (basketweaver sex ritual) checks.

Now, that can go in the opposite direction; the DM can even have Ecstacy produce miracles on a regular basis if s/he wants. Those are just 'rules of thumb' given in the description; it's not a codified set of abilities.

But I always assume the DM's a RAW-wielding buttcake for ratings discussions, in which case it's just gonna spit out useless skill check results and might as well not even be listed as an ability.

I'm going to edit my post but not my overall score.
You're right, but the PC is a Lawful Good Exalted being who took a Sacred Vow of Chastity, asking a Celestial for help. Even RAW, a Celestial should act in a very helpful way in your regards. Also, Celestials are usually intelligent and wise beings, you're not asking for help to a random pidgeon.

[Wildstag]

I'm mildly confused by the Ecstasy options.

If you use the Commune option, you pay more experience than just casting the spell without the ability, and your Commune would last longer as a spell than as part of the ability.

Good Hope is a morale bonus, a bonus type that is inherently weak.

Atonement is exceptionally niche, in the time I've played, I've never even seen anyone fall from a deity or class.

Enthrall is a low level spell that really is only useful if a Sorcerer takes it, since the spell is on the bard and cleric list (probably the intended entry classes).

Detect Evil is on basically every list.

Phylactery of Faithfulness: see atonement above. Added issue that it is a class ability to replicate a 1,000 gp item for only 10 rounds per day. If you're that worried about alignment changes, just get the item.

Divination can be useful, but why not just take the 10 minute casting time.

Basically, this PrC is ONLY useful if you're entering from Sorcerer, and even then, you only get a couple effects per day. It reads like a PrC written to fill a quota.

[Mike Miller]

Risen “Jazz Hands” Martyr

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1)
The fluff of the class screams intentional, plot-related entry. It doesn’t look like a class you would just realize you could meet the prereqs in a level or two and take it. I also enjoy the fluff text claiming PCs are more often RMs than NPCs because they take on the holy quests, which ignores the strict rules I’ll get into in a moment which really deters PCs.

The chassis: d12 HD, 2 skill points per level, so-so skill selection, half BAB, only good WILL save. The d12 is because of the deathless type. Other than the HP, this chassis is fairly lousy. Martyrdom is described earlier in BoED, but simplified is dying for an exalted cause. The downside of this class is twofold: you are not allowed to take other classes once you start this and you are taken away into the upper planes when you finish the class. The standard argument is you become an NPC, but even if you are allowed to return, you need to take all 10 levels in a row.

“Level 0” is weird and bad and I don’t like it, because it should just be considered an 11 level PrC instead of level 0 nonsense. This level reflects your deathless type, which has pros and cons.

First level is an untyped +2 to CHA, a deflection bonus to AC equal to CHA mod, and a sacred bonus of +1 to attacks, damage, ability checks, and skill checks related to the exalted purpose. The bonus increases over time until reaching +4.

2nd level sees another constant magic circle against evil and the ability to Bless three times per day. ACHOO

Level three gets Daylight at will as a free action, which seems like fun even if it isn’t all that powerful.

Fourth level is acid immunity, a less common damage type but still an immunity, and detect evil at will.

5th level sees the magic circle replaced by a protective aura.

Sixth level is just shield other three times per day.

7th level is both cold immunity, probably more common than acid?, and celestial brilliance once per day.

8th level improves the protective aura instead of replacing it, by adding in holy aura.

Level 9 is electrical immunity and the aforementioned holy purpose bonuses max out at +4.

The capstone is being considered a celestial for the purpose of spells and effects that are special on celestials. I like that it mentions being able to cast spells with the appropriate celestial types, despite not improving casting. “Hey, you’re 10 levels of casting behind, but now you can cast celestial components spells!” Woo…

The final clause is reaching the next level removes you from the material, which seems at odds with the whole “I have a purpose for coming back from the dead” fluff. Shouldn’t it have been “once you’ve completed your purpose you ascend?”

You gain a fair amount of immunities and defensive buffs. The chassis leaves a lot to be desired and no spellcaster would ever want to rise as a martyr. Where’s a Raise Dead when you need it? I can’t ignore the “must finish this class without multiclassing” clause, which primarily matters because you leave the material once finished. The clause isn’t just “don’t multiclass,” it is build-ending. If you willfully perform an evil act, you are immediately destroyed. Just to reiterate, half BAB, no casting, defensive buffs. It seems as though the class should have been 3 / 4 BAB and 5 / 10 casting progression to allow for more useful PCs, considering the writers didn’t feel the class would work as an NPC. The holy purpose bonus helps with the decreased BAB, but doesn’t add iterative attacks. As you level, you’ll fall behind all your allies in usefulness. 6 / 14

2)
The primary opportunity cost in my mind is: diverge to Risen Martyr or help pay back the cost of a Raise Dead spell. “Oh great now I’m stuck in this class for 10 levels and maybe not come back after” vs “Oh, I am in your debt (temporarily).” Seems like a no brainer. Any good aligned person could enter, but it feels more likely that a divine oriented class would. I’m thinking Paladin, Cleric, Favored Soul… All seem like better choices to just stick with over RM. At least sticking with a base class gives you a clear idea of what you want to do. If you start with any of those, die, and rise as a RM, your previous role is greatly altered. All three lose casting progression and paladin loses its precious BAB. Front lining becomes dangerous due to reaching 0 HP and being destroyed courtesy of deathless. Casting quickly becomes ineffective as you watch your allies gain more and more magic power. The class is interesting, but it focuses on combat abilities without giving a combat role. 0 / 4

3)
As for prereqs, they are so-so. Level 6 meets the base save reqs and you are also likely to have 9 ranks in one skill at level 6. The feats are easy and a speak language req. I say these are pretty minor. 2 / 2

Risen Martyr: 8 / 20

[Wildstag]

I like the idea of the prestige class, and its designed to give a lot of the immunities that you would expect an angel would have, but it doesn't really bring anything to the table. I agree that 3/4 BAB and half-casting would have made it usable.

I guess there's really not much to say about this that hasn't already been said. I almost wish it were more like Pathfinder's Evangelist, where they get things in addition to effectively continuing as their base class, but with the PrC's saves, hd, bab, and skills. That way it'd at least feel less restrictive: you're stuck in this class, you have to take a 0th level, and you ascend when you reach level 10.

Probably should have just been a template like the Saint was.

[Edea]

Definitely should have been a template for use in making NPCs. This has no business being a PrC; when PCs die, you either rez them or roll up new sheets.