rwbyOS X: Even the Thread Gets a Costume Change!

[Ramza00]

Would anyone enjoy me doing a RWBY Vol 7 Rewatch and Review? Or has everyone moved on from this show.

If I do such a thing it would be watching only a single episode per day and then doing a review, but I have no clue how long it would take for me to do it.

[Kantaki]

Would anyone enjoy me doing a RWBY Vol 7 Rewatch and Review? Or has everyone moved on from this show.

If I do such a thing it would be watching only a single episode per day and then doing a review, but I have no clue how long it would take for me to do it.

I would read it.
Still have to watch the last few episodes myself though.

[Rawhide]

If I do such a thing it would be watching only a single episode per day and then doing a review, but I have no clue how long it would take for me to do it.

13 days.

[Fyraltari]

Would anyone enjoy me doing a RWBY Vol 7 Rewatch and Review? Or has everyone moved on from this show.

If I do such a thing it would be watching only a single episode per day and then doing a review, but I have no clue how long it would take for me to do it.

Sure. Sounds fun.

Spoiler: Speaking of RWBY, S7 ep13

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Can we all agree that Qrow allying with Tyrian against Clover was astronomically dumb?

[Ramza00]

13 days.

Laughs that sounds like work.

[LaZodiac]

Sure. Sounds fun.

Spoiler: Speaking of RWBY

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Can we all agree that Qrow allying with Tyrian against Clover was astronomically dumb?

Spoiler: Season 7 Episode 13

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"Hm, murderous psychopath who is literally trying to kill me and everyone else in the plane, OR the guy who has been flirting with me this entire season. Who to choose..."

I guess Clover is a real fitting Lucky Fisherman because he's a MASSIVE bait.

[Anyr]

Spoiler: Season 7 Episode 13

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"Hm, murderous psychopath who is literally trying to kill me and everyone else in the plane, OR the guy who has been flirting with me this entire season. Who to choose..."

I guess Clover is a real fitting Lucky Fisherman because he's a MASSIVE bait.

Spoiler: S07E11/13

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It feels like the writers really wanted a specific outcome, without knowing how to get there. So they just had the characters make insane decisions.

Episode 11 has this issue as well. Ironwood challenges Watts alone, in an arena full of hackable technology. I actually enjoyed the fight itself. The circumstances were just painfully contrived. Likewise for the aftermath. Watts traps one of Ironwood's arms; Then declares victory, and turns his back on the fully conscious enemy. Even for someone as arrogant as him, that's a stretch. Ironwood didn't need to sacrifice an arm. He could have just thrown something solid at the back of Watts' head!

Then there's the Salem scene. The writers needed a Seer Grimm to appear in Ironwood's office at a dramatic moment. So they have Ironwood carry the Grimm there in a bag. The paranoid General doesn't bother to search this container first: Even though it belonged to one of Salem's top subordinates, who was trying to sabotage Amity Arena. No concerns about a bomb? Apparently not. Because the bag needs to end up in a specific place. So, just like with Qrowe and Watts, Ironwood does what the plot requires of him.

[Fyraltari]

Spoiler: S07E11/13

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It feels like the writers really wanted a specific outcome, without knowing how to get there. So they just had the characters make insane decisions.

Episode 11 has this issue as well. Ironwood challenges Watts alone, in an arena full of hackable technology. I actually enjoyed the fight itself. The circumstances were just painfully contrived. Likewise for the aftermath. Watts traps one of Ironwood's arms; Then declares victory, and turns his back on the fully conscious enemy. Even for someone as arrogant as him, that's a stretch. Ironwood didn't need to sacrifice an arm. He could have just thrown something solid at the back of Watts' head!

Then there's the Salem scene. The writers needed a Seer Grimm to appear in Ironwood's office at a dramatic moment. So they have Ironwood carry the Grimm there in a bag. The paranoid General doesn't bother to search this container first: Even though it belonged to one of Salem's top subordinates, who was trying to sabotage Amity Arena. No concerns about a bomb? Apparently not. Because the bag needs to end up in a specific place. So, just like with Qrowe and Watts, Ironwood does what the plot requires of him.

Spoiler: S7 ep 11/13

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Also Ironwood didn't kill Watts because he knows he'll have plot stuff to do in the later seasons I guess.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'll say this, I overall enjoyed this volume which also...makes it weird to talk about. The volume was good but not in a standout way that makes me want to talk about it, because its largely things that I've already said before in that its a lot of small improvements that overall make the show better. But there's no...standout scene/scenes that make me want to go 'this was great, I really want to see more of this!'

It also wasn't bad, not enough to critique something or figure out why it was wrong and how it could be improved. I suppose there's a few areas that I could touch upon...

Spoiler: Pacing

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Over all the pacing for the volume is just fine, it moves at a bit of a clip but at the same time its also showing a passage of time. Team RWBY+ are taking jobs as Huntsmen and helping around Atlas, they're training in combat, there an entire political campaign going on. Moving quickly makes sense but it lacks the smaller, emotional beats that earlier volumes did rather well. There's also some facets of the story this volume that I wish had been given more time to breath.

Not to remind anyone of it, but Blake's personal story got dragged out over the course of two volumes and a touch of a third. There's reasons for that, Blake is (apparently) a popular character and the Faunus/White Fang are a big part of the setting that needed resolution as well. However, Weiss does not get this same time given to her personal story. Hell, she gets barely any time given to it at all and I'm not just unhappy because Weiss is (in my mind at leasT) a superior character to Weiss but this was a better story line as well. Why was Whitley suddenly just as much a victim as Weiss/Winter of their father when he was the little s*** that manipulated Weiss into losing her inheritance? Since when has Weiss' mother been bugging Jacque and why? Where's the butler? Why did Winter and Jacques never interact with one another? Atlas has been built up as a place where things are going to reach a turning point of one kind or another, so to have one of those big plotlines not just wrapped up so quickly but so neatly is a bit jarring.

Its also a case where slowing the pace down a touch and letting this story breath would have been very fulfilling, at least for this fan because RWBY is, undoubtedly, an action show but this would have eben a great chance to sprinkle in something different to spice things up. They did it a little bit, but not enough. Again, IMO.

Spoiler: The Ace Operatives

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I liked them, from what we got to see of them. I do think it was a mistake to label them as the best Huntsmen in Atlas just for RWBY, some battle tested but still young huntresses to take them out because..its escalation that didn't need to happen but it made sense and its a common issue with shows like this so I can't knock them too much for this. So why am I bringing up the Ace Operatives? Because they show the clearest sign of an improvement in the fight choreography in the post-Monty Oum era of the show. And the best thing to compare it to?

The much maligned (deservedly so in many ways) fight at the end of Volume 5. THIS is how a fight like that is done well. The combatants are spread out so there's reason for why they aren't explicitly helping each other out, they made good use of Hare and Ruby's speed to transition from one fight to another. The tactics and emotions, for as much as we knew about the Ace Operatives made plenty of sense. There was some degree of tactics between the fights, no real combo attacks from the Ace Operatives but, that made sense (TO A DEGREE) since they weren't all on the same page.

Was it perfect? No, but it was a DAMN sight better than the battle for Haven where you had single fights that weren't bad (Weiss vs. Vernal) and a cool transition one, but otherwise it felt like everyone was separated fro one another when in reality they were all in the same room.

Qrow and Tyrian teaming up was not the smartest thing that Qrow's done, admittedly, but it makes sense as a panic decision he made with his nieces (team) in danger when he has absolutely no chance against Fisher on his own and Fisher isn't going to let him run. That said..Qrow is dumb for not expecting the serial killer to be..well...a serial killer and taking steps to avoid incidental murder. Also, why is Qrow suddenly bisexual this volume? Who knows but it was super weird and out of left field.

Spoiler: Mantle vs. Atlas

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As a whole, this was a more fun conflict and story line to follow throughout the volume but here's my main problems with it.

1) Robin is not just unsympathetic, she's unlikable. And as the face of Mantle, RT probably was intending for her to be a likable person for the audience to root for. She's not. She's not 'on the edge of doing the wrong thing to better help the people of Mantle' like seems to be the intent, she is well over the line into maliciously sabotaging Atlas and demanding information that she has no right to. This is also where spacing out the election part of the story line this volume would have really benefit her character.

2) Ironwood does not have the wrong idea by the end of the volume. The RWBY act like he's some heartless monster dooming Mantle to save his own hide or making a 'the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many' argument but that's simply not the case. For one, the volume just seems to forget that there's people living on Atlas as well as in Mantle, possibly more people than in Mantle! Its not just military personnel up there and Ironwood has just as much an obligation to them as he does the people of Mantle. Second, he's not just saving the rich and casting off the poor, he is actively keeping the Staff of Creation out of Salem's reach in the process which is his main goal in what seems to be an unwinnable scenario with Salem explicitly on her way and the Grim already attacking Mantle. If he can save a few and also remove Salem's win condition from being on the field at the same time, he SHOULD take that chance. RWBY's argument basically boils down to 'well, we should try to save everyone' which makes perfect sense for Ruby to make that argument but its a child's logic and RWBY (the show) treats her answer as if it is objectively correct when it's not. If RWBY had some secret information that could have turned the tide or had a risky plan to save everyone and the staff at the same time that Ironwood just didn't want to take a chance on, that would be one thing. The show's stance would be more fitting and reasonable, but that's not the case. Even if they did, Ironwood is explicitly given many reasons throughout the volume that he can't trust them because they can, and have, kept secrets from him and betrayed his trust.

That said..Ironwood's character development is pretty spot-on for this volume, even his fight with Watts makes sense...though not him not checking the bag before he got back to his office. That should have happened long before that point but they wanted Salem to address and meet everyone, not just Ironwood so he picked up an idiot ball for a hot minute there, not that this hurt anything. Still got chills when he told Oscar to call him General and felt honest regret that the situation got to that point, even if I perfectly understood why.

Those are my big take-aways this volume, but yeah..it was a good volume..probably the most well-rounded one for RWBY as a whole but a jack of all trades is often a master of none. There's no low lows or big highs.

[Rawhide]

Yang plays Beat Saber.

[Epinephrine_Syn]

Spoiler: Mantle vs. Atlas

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As a whole, this was a more fun conflict and story line to follow throughout the volume but here's my main problems with it.

1) Robin is not just unsympathetic, she's unlikable. And as the face of Mantle, RT probably was intending for her to be a likable person for the audience to root for. She's not. She's not 'on the edge of doing the wrong thing to better help the people of Mantle' like seems to be the intent, she is well over the line into maliciously sabotaging Atlas and demanding information that she has no right to. This is also where spacing out the election part of the story line this volume would have really benefit her character.

2) Ironwood does not have the wrong idea by the end of the volume. The RWBY act like he's some heartless monster dooming Mantle to save his own hide or making a 'the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many' argument but that's simply not the case. For one, the volume just seems to forget that there's people living on Atlas as well as in Mantle, possibly more people than in Mantle! Its not just military personnel up there and Ironwood has just as much an obligation to them as he does the people of Mantle. Second, he's not just saving the rich and casting off the poor, he is actively keeping the Staff of Creation out of Salem's reach in the process which is his main goal in what seems to be an unwinnable scenario with Salem explicitly on her way and the Grim already attacking Mantle. If he can save a few and also remove Salem's win condition from being on the field at the same time, he SHOULD take that chance. RWBY's argument basically boils down to 'well, we should try to save everyone' which makes perfect sense for Ruby to make that argument but its a child's logic and RWBY (the show) treats her answer as if it is objectively correct when it's not. If RWBY had some secret information that could have turned the tide or had a risky plan to save everyone and the staff at the same time that Ironwood just didn't want to take a chance on, that would be one thing. The show's stance would be more fitting and reasonable, but that's not the case. Even if they did, Ironwood is explicitly given many reasons throughout the volume that he can't trust them because they can, and have, kept secrets from him and betrayed his trust.

That said..Ironwood's character development is pretty spot-on for this volume, even his fight with Watts makes sense...though not him not checking the bag before he got back to his office. That should have happened long before that point but they wanted Salem to address and meet everyone, not just Ironwood so he picked up an idiot ball for a hot minute there, not that this hurt anything. Still got chills when he told Oscar to call him General and felt honest regret that the situation got to that point, even if I perfectly understood why.

Spoiler: S7E13

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Ironwood's idea is absolutely bat**** crazy, though it doesn't seem that way primarily because team RWBY needs to not challenge the practical side because then ironwood would see how absurd it is and then how would plot happen?

Let's take this out to its logical conclusion. Atlas flies up into orbit, uses space bubble magic to keep everyone safe and secure, leaving mantle to die and become Salem Town. Horray, the relic is safe, and they can wait out the crisis because their food reserves are secure.

What happens when those food reserves run out?

In this hypothetical where hiding in the atmosphere is necessary to keep out of Salem's reach, they can't just come back down to do trade for food. They're going to have a bitch of a time growing their own food up there too. It might be possible to clear out enough lands to grow some food to keep a couple people alive, but it's certainly going to be significantly less than the population is now.

And that's assuming when Salem conquers the rest of remnant and had decades to lay around with nothing but time to think she never dreams up a way to get to Atlas too. If she ever manages to get even the smallest bit of her influence up there, then with finite dust supplies and a ghost crew aboard the island, the odds don't look good.

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: S7E13

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Don't forget the other issue that dust doesn't work as it gets higher up in the atmosphere. All of their tech's gonna stop working.

It's a textbook case of bad writing; the plan Ironwood has is Never Going To Happen, since Salem's whale attack will ground them. Ergo the writers never bothered making it make sense, since "well it's not going to succeed anyway so why waste time making the plan even be sensible".

Which is a mistake, obviously.

[Epinephrine_Syn]

Spoiler: S7E13

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I might be wrong, but I think that plan flew out the window along with Penny. The maiden powers were their key to get to the levitating rod to change the settings on it, and now that they're gone none of this'll happen. Salem's arrival will do a lot of damage, but stopping him from slamming the evac button's not one of them.

Also, some people were vaguely annoyed about there being not as much buildup to it, but I am incredibly hype for Maiden!Penny. There doesn't need to be two full seasons of foreshadowing for something like this to work, given it's a Right Place, Right Time thing. It's a reason to keep her around, it lets the ruby team have access to the maiden powers without dumping it on the main protags, and the fact that we've established a hardcore difference between "fully realized maiden" and "newbie" (aka cinder getting her ass handed to her effortlessly) means that Penny won't just bulldoze any relevant obstacles in their path.

[Silverraptor]

Yang plays Beat Saber.

That was actually quite enjoyable to watch.

[Ramza00]

Spoiler: S7E13

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I might be wrong, but I think that plan flew out the window along with Penny. The maiden powers were their key to get to the levitating rod to change the settings on it, and now that they're gone none of this'll happen. Salem's arrival will do a lot of damage, but stopping him from slamming the evac button's not one of them.

Also, some people were vaguely annoyed about there being not as much buildup to it, but I am incredibly hype for Maiden!Penny. There doesn't need to be two full seasons of foreshadowing for something like this to work, given it's a Right Place, Right Time thing. It's a reason to keep her around, it lets the ruby team have access to the maiden powers without dumping it on the main protags, and the fact that we've established a hardcore difference between "fully realized maiden" and "newbie" (aka cinder getting her ass handed to her effortlessly) means that Penny won't just bulldoze any relevant obstacles in their path.

Just a reminder

Spoiler: Pokemon reference

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aka cinder getting her ass handed to her effortlessly

This happened twice! Not once, but twice.
Furthermore Cinder has lost twice against Silver Eyes. [The second though was a quick save by Emerald.]
Both older maidens, and silver eyes are super-effective against Cinder.

Cinder also was pressured by a novice Pyrrha.

I honestly do not understand how Ozpin was outclassed by Cinder with her current showings.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Spoiler: S7E13

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Ironwood's idea is absolutely bat**** crazy, though it doesn't seem that way primarily because team RWBY needs to not challenge the practical side because then ironwood would see how absurd it is and then how would plot happen?

Let's take this out to its logical conclusion. Atlas flies up into orbit, uses space bubble magic to keep everyone safe and secure, leaving mantle to die and become Salem Town. Horray, the relic is safe, and they can wait out the crisis because their food reserves are secure.

What happens when those food reserves run out?

In this hypothetical where hiding in the atmosphere is necessary to keep out of Salem's reach, they can't just come back down to do trade for food. They're going to have a bitch of a time growing their own food up there too. It might be possible to clear out enough lands to grow some food to keep a couple people alive, but it's certainly going to be significantly less than the population is now.

And that's assuming when Salem conquers the rest of remnant and had decades to lay around with nothing but time to think she never dreams up a way to get to Atlas too. If she ever manages to get even the smallest bit of her influence up there, then with finite dust supplies and a ghost crew aboard the island, the odds don't look good.

Spoiler: V7 Ch 13

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Here's the thing though, its not crazy.

You are acting like Atlas does not have a godly relic that is literally called the 'Staff/Spear of Creation' at is disposal that can be used. And since, as of this moment, we do not know how the staff functions beyond its name there is every reason to assume it is not only capable of creating food for Atlas' inhabitants but also powering their technology as well.

The basis for this? Its kept Atlas suspended where it is for as long as it has, with absolutely no problems, for Atlas' entire existence which rolls out the possibility that it is of limited use like the Lamp of Knowledge. And Ironwood's reasoning behind Salem being unable to ever get to Atlas isn't flawless, but its a DAMN sight better than what Team RWBY is suggesting since we've seen nothing to suggest the Grim would spontaneously develop the ability to survive in space and Salem herself is remarkably technology adverse. Which, even if she wasn't, they make the case that it might not be possible for technology to reach them right now without the Staff.

Is it a delaying measure? Sure, but its still a far sight better than 'lets sit and wait for the immortal witch and her army of Grimm to show up to see if we can duke it out with her.

@Regarding Cinder: Cinder did not struggle with Pyrrha. Like at all. And with everyone else aside from more experienced Maidens or the ability to literally destroy her with a glance (aka, Divine Glowy Eyes) she's practically rofl-stomped every other opponent.

[Calemyr]

Just a reminder

Spoiler: Pokemon reference

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This happened twice! Not once, but twice.
Furthermore Cinder has lost twice against Silver Eyes. [The second though was a quick save by Emerald.]
Both older maidens, and silver eyes are super-effective against Cinder.

Cinder also was pressured by a novice Pyrrha.

I honestly do not understand how Ozpin was outclassed by Cinder with her current showings.

I don't really see the problem, there.
Against Ruby, she's an increasingly Grimm-assisted combatant against a person with an anti-Grimm superpower and an emotional reaction to her that makes it easy for her to draw on that superpower. Seriously, the girl needs to fight to harness it against actual Grimm, but merely looking at Cinder gets her eyes glowing. That is not a fair fight.

Against Raven, she is out-matched by the bird bandit on every front. Raven has more combat experience, more experience with her Maiden powers, and even Cinder's Grimm advantage is countered by Raven's Ozpin-granted magic boost, not to mention the Grimm advantage does come with its own flaws against a ruthless opponent like Raven. It was a competitive battle, but Raven was simply superior, so her victory was not unwarranted.

Against Freia, there wasn't a contest at all. Cinder's strong, but, even with her youth on her side, Freia's matured powers are not a fair match. This isn't a question of who had the advantage, it was a level 30 vs a level 100, even if the level 100 was berserk and not really in control of her powers anymore. It would have been more balanced if it'd been Penny, but by then Ruby was also in the fray so she was outmatched without a rival Maiden being there.

Against Pyrrha, the child prodigy never really was winning that fight. She put up an impressive showing, but even a half-power Cinder didn't have to actually work at that duel. She had to be creative, because Pyrrha was a creative fighter, but, in the end, Pyrrha was to Cinder what Cardin was to Pyrrha. A speed bump.

Against Neo, it's somewhat the same thing. Neo is extremely dangerous, but Cinder was more concerned with figuring out what was going on and how to resolve this to her advantage rather than simply winning. Neo really never seemed to have a chance, but she put up an impressive show.

Against Ozpin, the fight was more balanced than you might initially expect. Cinder was newly complete as a Maiden, while Ozpin had spend a lot of his magical power empowering his followers, none of whom were there to back him up. Ozpin, like Raven, had a clear advantage in the match, but neither fight was unwinnable. Cinder just managed to beat unfavorable odds, this time. I admit, her victory feels unearned because we don't see it beyond vague flashes with no conclusion, but it was the final nail that made the collapse of Volume 3 so tragically complete.

Really, Cinder's 1 for 2 when it came to even relatively fair matches. She dominates Pyrrha and Neo but has no prayer against Ruby and Freia. It's only Raven and Ozpin that had within, say, 70/30 odds, with Cinder being the underdog both times.

[LaZodiac]

Cinder barely beat Pyrrha. Cinder's been getting clowned this entire series except for the Autumn fight and even then it was like, three vs one (and Emerald got punked immediately).

[KatsOfLoathing]

Cinder barely beat Pyrrha. Cinder's been getting clowned this entire series except for the Autumn fight and even then it was like, three vs one (and Emerald got punked immediately).

Every time I rewatch the Cinder vs. Pyrrha fight this feels less true. Sure, Pyrrha goes hard and even manages to get a fair few hits in, but the fight is blatantly stacked against her from the start. Cinder blocks or powers through everything she tries with virtually zero effort (heck, for most of the fight Cinder's basically standing in place slinging fireballs), and by the end Pyrrha is mortally injured while Cinder isn't even breathing hard. And this was after Cinder vs. Ozpin, where the former clearly had to commit much harder to winning.

The Autumn fight was against an opponent with much more experience and raw power, and all three of Cinder, Emerald, and Mercury have clearly improved a lot since then if you're watching their performance in the present.

Cinder's combat skill is kinda hard to gauge overall. There's just so few fights she gets into the series where one side doesn't have some blatant power advantage over the other.

[Ramza00]

Cinder outclassed Pyrrha in every way, yet still even though Cinder is far superior in raw stats on several metrics it was still a horrible showing for Cinder.

Why was it a horrible showing for Cinder? Well because Cinder was constantly sloppy in the fight, and due to this sloppiness Pyrrha was able to control the flow of the fight, and twice in the early stages of the fight Pyrrha allowed Cinder to overextend herself in the fight, during which Pyrrha used that momentum to pivot and reframe the fight on terrain that was advantageous to her. Cinder obviously had far superior stats but due to technique and proper timing Pyrrha survived 8x times as long as she should have.

In the end Pyrrha was put down not by the raw power of Cinder but Cinder actually fighting in a calm and collected way and using the trick arrow [to my understanding Cinder's semblance] and not via Cinder's maiden powers or any of her other raw performance besides Maiden Powers, Fighting Ability, etc. Cinder won the fight via thinking like a rogue / assassin and not like a Fighter or Elemental Mage.

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Pyrrha vs Cinder was a horrible showing for Cinder, this novice should have not been pressuring Cinder for that long, there should not have been a several minute fight but in the end there was. I say this fight made Cinder look bad, but hey this is my subjective opinion.

[Fyraltari]

That fight is clearly meant to be Pyrrha's swan song, her moment of glory just before her death, so they scaled Cinder down a notch to accomodate that.

[Ramza00]

That fight is clearly meant to be Pyrrha's swan song, her moment of glory just before her death, so they scaled Cinder down a notch to accomodate that.

True, but in hindsight it looks different when Cinder keeps on losing to those other opponents.

The joke that started this thing is, Other Maidens and Silver Eyes are super-effective against the Cinder Pokemon.

[LaZodiac]

Cinder outclassed Pyrrha in every way, yet still even though Cinder is far superior in raw stats on several metrics it was still a horrible showing for Cinder.

Why was it a horrible showing for Cinder? Well because Cinder was constantly sloppy in the fight, and due to this sloppiness Pyrrha was able to control the flow of the fight, and twice in the early stages of the fight Pyrrha allowed Cinder to overextend herself in the fight, during which Pyrrha used that momentum to pivot and reframe the fight on terrain that was advantageous to her. Cinder obviously had far superior stats but due to technique and proper timing Pyrrha survived 8x times as long as she should have.

In the end Pyrrha was put down not by the raw power of Cinder but Cinder actually fighting in a calm and collected way and using the trick arrow [to my understanding Cinder's semblance] and not via Cinder's maiden powers or any of her other raw performance besides Maiden Powers, Fighting Ability, etc. Cinder won the fight via thinking like a rogue / assassin and not like a Fighter or Elemental Mage.

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Pyrrha vs Cinder was a horrible showing for Cinder, this novice should have not been pressuring Cinder for that long, there should not have been a several minute fight but in the end there was. I say this fight made Cinder look bad, but hey this is my subjective opinion.

I still contest Pyrrha would have lived if she didn't throw her shield like a dumbass. That's the only mistake she made in this fight.

Also the idea that Cinder was made to look less impressive to make Pyrrha look cooler in her swan song is... really stupid and not how fights should be written or presented, especially if the person getting worfed is a main antagonist who we're supposed to take seriously. Adding this to all the other times she gets utterly trounced by basically everyone makes her being Salem's special little daughter/apprentice... a bit silly.

[Fyraltari]

I still contest Pyrrha would have lived if she didn't throw her shield like a dumbass. That's the only mistake she made in this fight.

Also the idea that Cinder was made to look less impressive to make Pyrrha look cooler in her swan song is... really stupid and not how fights should be written or presented, especially if the person getting worfed is a main antagonist who we're supposed to take seriously. Adding this to all the other times she gets utterly trounced by basically everyone makes her being Salem's special little daughter/apprentice... a bit silly.

Fighting isn't an exact science. Someone being a better fighter than somebody else doesn't mean that they will beat them in exactly X time every time they fight. It means that they will beat them most of the time they fight with how often and how quickly (on average) being function of the gap in skills.

On a good day a novice (especially a prodigy like Pyrrha is supposed to be) can make a master struggle.

Having your heroic character give a decent fight to your villain on their last appearance isn't bad writing. A character should die as the better version of themselves, that's good writing.

I mean these fights aren't supposed to be realistic in the slightest (they're fighting in high heels for crying out loud) they're there to look good and dramatic. analyzing the tactics is beside the point entirely.

[LaZodiac]

Fighting isn't an exact science. Someone being a better fighter than somebody else doesn't mean that they will beat them in exactly X time every time they fight. It means that they will beat them most of the time they fight with how often and how quickly (on average) being function of the gap in skills.

On a good day a novice (especially a prodigy like Pyrrha is supposed to be) can make a master struggle.

Having your heroic character give a decent fight to your villain on their last appearance isn't bad writing. A character should die as the better version of themselves, that's good writing.

I mean these fights aren't supposed to be realistic in the slightest (they're fighting in high heels for crying out loud) they're there to look good and dramatic. analyzing the tactics is beside the point entirely.

You can have that happen without defanging the villain.

You're right that these fights are more for the spectacle. It's not very spectacular to see the forward face of the antagonist get her **** kicked in at every opportunity.

[Ramza00]

You can have that happen without defanging the villain.

You're right that these fights are more for the spectacle. It's not very spectacular to see the forward face of the antagonist get her **** kicked in at every opportunity.

Honestly one tactic they could have done with the Pyrrha vs Cinder fight is that the fight itself is all a ruse. Pyrrha using her magnetic powers to distribute dust grenades while Cinder is unaware for she thought she was fighting a legitimate fight.

Cinder would of course dominate the fight, but we the audience realize there are parallel goals aka a race. Pyrrha does not need to vanquish Cinder in a fair fight, she just needs to complete her plan.

• In an episode prior to this there was a training duel with Jaunne and Pyrrha about going up against a superior opponent. Sometimes you defeat a Goliath not with strength but via a Cunning Pyrrha advises her partner. Aka set up for this conflict.

Of course Pyrrha completes her plan but it fails due to Maiden power allowing you to use magical force to cheat and do absurd things. Pyrrha did everything right the gap was just too much between them.

Cinder then shoots Pyrrha in the heel and slowly kills her, sadistically using her crystal manipulation powers to destroy the body like poison. Cinder does this for she is a coward, a show off, and she takes delight in control and manipulation.

Pyrrha asks her destiny question which causes Cinder to say yes and she stops playing the death scene like a game, killing Pyrrha. Ruby sees this last moment and does the silver eyes.

—————

There are dozens of ways you could have done a better storytelling, let alone craft a different scene that was superior. Some of these can be done cheaply in Posner on a budget and some you can not. RWBY what a mess. (I can like messes though, they are still mess despite me liking them.)

[KatsOfLoathing]

You can have that happen without defanging the villain.

You're right that these fights are more for the spectacle. It's not very spectacular to see the forward face of the antagonist get her **** kicked in at every opportunity.

Cinder is obviously not giving her all for the majority of that battle. She's smiling, she throws obviously telegraphed easy-to-dodge attacks that aren't on the level of those we saw against Ozpin just a few minutes prior, she makes a ton of easy mistakes overall while relying on her sheer power to make up for the deficits. She only really starts fighting with any level of creativity once Pyrrha pulls out her hail-Mary Semblance attack, at which point the advantage rapidly tilts in her favor.

And with all honesty, Cinder's usefulness to the narrative ended after she lost to Raven at the end of season 5 (same deal with Adam, and I was immensely grateful when the show killed him off at the end of S6). Neo alone could've done all the skulking and relic-stealing and the narrative wouldn't have lost much (except an easy way to get the Winter Maiden powers to Penny, maybe). Both the story and Ruby herself have outgrown Cinder as an antagonist, and their confrontation at the end of S7 takes all of ten seconds to demonstrate why. Maybe the writers still have a plan for her. Maybe. Hopefully they start showing the fruits of it soon.

Re: Pyrrha throwing the shield - what other options did she have at that moment? Cinder destroyed her sword and blasted away all of the gears she'd been using as projectiles. The only other options AFAICT was to stand there and get blown off the tower or go at Cinder with her bare hands.

[LaZodiac]

Cinder is obviously not giving her all for the majority of that battle. She's smiling, she throws obviously telegraphed easy-to-dodge attacks that aren't on the level of those we saw against Ozpin just a few minutes prior, she makes a ton of easy mistakes overall while relying on her sheer power to make up for the deficits. She only really starts fighting with any level of creativity once Pyrrha pulls out her hail-Mary Semblance attack, at which point the advantage rapidly tilts in her favor.

And with all honesty, Cinder's usefulness to the narrative ended after she lost to Raven at the end of season 5 (same deal with Adam, and I was immensely grateful when the show killed him off at the end of S6). Neo alone could've done all the skulking and relic-stealing and the narrative wouldn't have lost much (except an easy way to get the Winter Maiden powers to Penny, maybe). Both the story and Ruby herself have outgrown Cinder as an antagonist, and their confrontation at the end of S7 takes all of ten seconds to demonstrate why. Maybe the writers still have a plan for her. Maybe. Hopefully they start showing the fruits of it soon.

Re: Pyrrha throwing the shield - what other options did she have at that moment? Cinder destroyed her sword and blasted away all of the gears she'd been using as projectiles. The only other options AFAICT was to stand there and get blown off the tower or go at Cinder with her bare hands.

I wouldn't say it's obvious given when the episode first came out, I had people telling me the exact opposite, that Cinder was dominating the fight. The secret here is that the animation really doesn't tell us anything, the fight barely has any actual meaning to it beyond "cool fight" and the read that Pyrrha is pushing Cinder to the limit can be read in numerous other ways, and all of them are pretty much valid because the show gives us nothing concrete to actually latch onto.

I agree that Cinder should have died, but she didn't so now we're stuck with the worst villain in RWBY, forever.

It's a shield. Use it to do a shield thing. You know... block, the arrow, coming towards her? Fight defensively and keep her only defense (because her armour is made of paper and garbage) on her so she doesn't get stabbed in the very open chest she has? If she had kept the shield on her and blocked the arrow it wouldn't have been able to reform directly into the path of her meat and then Ruby would have shown up at about that time and then it's 2v1 and Cinder loses because she's incompetent.

And given she sent Jaune away to get safe and ask for help to assist her, if I recall, she SHOULD BE EXPECTING, POSSIBLY, SOME HELP. So switching to "try not to die mode" would be a good idea. Instead she throws her ONLY means of defense away to try and... what, bonk Cinder in her face with a blunt metal object? That's not Pyrrha at all.

[Ramza00]

Re: Pyrrha throwing the shield - what other options did she have at that moment? Cinder destroyed her sword and blasted away all of the gears she'd been using as projectiles. The only other options AFAICT was to stand there and get blown off the tower or go at Cinder with her bare hands.

Remembers...

Ruby: (giggles before a short, awkward silence falls) "So... I got this thing!" (she pulls out Crescent Rose and stabs it into the ground)
Jaune: "Whoa! Is that a scythe?"
Ruby: "It's also a customizable high-impact sniper rifle!"
Jaune: "A-wha...?"
Ruby: (***** it, smiling) "It's also a gun."
Jaune: "Oh. That's cool!"
Ruby: "So what've you got?"
Jaune: "Oh! I, uh..." (unsheathes a blade) "I got this sword!"
Ruby: "Ooooohh!"
Jaune: "Yeah, and I've got a shield, too!" (he gets his scabbard, raises his arm and expands the metal into his defense)
Ruby: (touching the shield) "So, what do they do?"
Jaune: (fumbling with the shield as it retracts off his arm, expands, and retracts again before putting it back in place and finally shrinking it down for good, placing it on his belt) "The shield gets smaller, so when I get tired of carrying it, I can just... put it away..."
Ruby: "But... wouldn't it weigh the same?"
Jaune: (dejectedly) "Yeah, it does..."
Ruby: (giggling) "Well, I'm kind of a dork when it comes to weapons, sooo... I guess I did go a little overboard when designing it."

Only a shield? Only a shield!!!

Re: Pyrrha throwing the shield - what other options did she have at that moment? Cinder destroyed her sword and blasted away all of the gears she'd been using as projectiles. The only other options AFAICT was to stand there and get blown off the tower or go at Cinder with her bare hands.

Remembers...

Jaune: Uh, sir? I've got, um... a question. (he misses the tile under Weiss rising up into a springboard, rocketing into the air and over the forest, as the platforms activate down the line) So, this landing... strategy thing... Uh, wha-what is it? You're, like, dropping us off or something?
Ozpin: No. You will be falling.
Jaune: (missing more students being thrown) Oh, uh, I see... So, like, did you hand out parachutes for us?
Ozpin: No. You will be using your own "landing strategy."
Jaune: (still not seeing an excited Nora and Ren getting launched) Uh-huh... Yeah.
At her turn, Yang winks at her younger sister, puts on a pair of aviators, and flies off with a "Woo-hoooooooo!" a second before Ruby joins her.
Jaune: So, what exactly is a landing strategYYY!...
He asks this part just when he finally has to get hurled with the cloud of students now making their way down into the forest below under the eyes of the teachers. Ozpin, for his part, simply takes a sip of his drink before the scene goes black and the credits roll.

Discretion is the better part of valor.
Caution is preferable to rash bravery.

Put another way if you can't win and you are out of tricks, run away. Yes you are at the top of a tall tower but we already know that these characters can survive that. So Pyrrha use your shield and pull a Captain America doing a call back to Episode 4 / 5.

And if Pyrrha can only do a landing strategy with her spear / gun than that is a failure of Ozpin's school to properly equip his students. Why aren't Mercury's Gun boots standard? They would be useful things for any Huntress or Hunter to utilize to increase their mobility and speed if they do not have a semblance that already provides them super speed like Ruby.

It's a shield. Use it to do a shield thing. You know... block, the arrow, coming towards her? Fight defensively and keep her only defense (because her armour is made of paper and garbage) on her so she doesn't get stabbed in the very open chest she has? If she had kept the shield on her and blocked the arrow it wouldn't have been able to reform directly into the path of her meat and then Ruby would have shown up at about that time and then it's 2v1 and Cinder loses because she's incompetent.

Literally there was no reason what so ever to keep the fight going between Pyrrha and Cinder after Pyrrha's hail mary metal gears attack did not work. Pyrrha started the fight not to stop Cinder but instead to defend the tower for Ozpin said the tower can not fall. Well the dragon destroyed the tower in the attack and thus the only reason to keep on fighting Cinder is revenge / stop Cinder.

But Cinder was not in dangers of disappearing then and there, so why don't you regroup with your allies instead of fighting a 1 v 1 fight after you lose your weapon and you only have a defensive shield?

-----

Cinder was sloppy during that fight, but Pyrrha was stupid at the last bit. Yet we "forget" the stupidity due to how the fight is edited. Pyrrha was knocked on the ground and we cut away to Weiss and Ruby and Weiss does the glyphs and tell Ruby she can do it. Then at 9:00 Pyrrha gets up from her hail mary and runs straight at Cinder, Cinder readies an arrow, before the arrow is released Pyrrha throws her shield (which is a stupid move to do if you are not confident you can prevent the arrow from being shot), Cinder unleashes the arrow after the shield is in the arrow, they meet in the middle, and the arrow reforms around the shield.

Pyrrha position after the cut back to her (from the previous arrow / shield) makes no sense for she stops her momentum facing the wrong direction after doing the spin, you would not literally stop the momentum like that, and the arrow hits Pyrrha's heal. Then lots of talking before Pyrrha's death.

The specific bits of the fight do not make sense, it relies on the viewer to pretend they do make sense like much of media does. But here is the thing when people feel a scene is off or they have complaints about the scene these complaints are valid for them they feel the uncanny valley effect where they notice something is off and they lose immersion when that occurs. (The more technical term is absence / presence, we know this is a fiction, but we suspend part of our brain in order to enjoy the scene but when we notice something that is blaring off we remember this is a fiction and it does not "make sense.")

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'll be honest, I don't really enjoy this thread anymore and I think its making me dislike RWBY as well just because I know I'm going to come here and defend a good (but not perfect) show against boundless hyperbole and negativity just in search of an actually thoughtful discussion.

So..thanks for what good times there were, a few laughs, but I'm out. Enjoy tearing the show apart in my absence.