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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Help with First Edition Kineticist Elemental Avatar Rework

    So I am playing a first edition pathfinder game as an elemental avatar. My DM is allowing all of knights of porphyra 3rd party books. I am not happy with the drawbacks of the archetype and feel they are a bit out of flavor and are overbalanced. It is really weird how the archetype would result in dead levels, which don't really ever appear in pathfinder. I was hoping to hear opinions on a re balance for the archetype. One thing we were thinking of increasing the amount of nonlethal damage done per burn by some number (I am thinking by 1 or 2, or something like 1 level 1-10, 2 level 11-20). The DM has approved a change for it but we are having trouble determining the balance for the change.
    Last edited by Aar60493; 2019-11-05 at 06:25 PM.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Wolfswift's Avatar

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    Default Re: Help with First Edition Kineticist Elemental Avatar Rework

    I'm in his group, I can confirm our DM says it's fine to rebalance it. Also he can't post links, so I agreed to post his links, here.

    For reference here are links to the books and classes:
    https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative...es/kineticist/
    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2019-11-06 at 10:06 AM.

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Help with First Edition Kineticist Elemental Avatar Rework

    Quote Originally Posted by Aar60493 View Post
    I am not happy with the drawbacks of the archetype and feel they are a bit out of flavor and are overbalanced. It is really weird how the archetype would result in dead levels, which don't really ever appear in pathfinder.
    I agree, this archetype looks like a straight downgrade of what is already one of the weakest classes in the game. I'm not sure what your reason is for choosing this in the first place.

    Given how few points of burn you have per day, I don't see how doing 1 or 2 more damage per burn would help, really. For "balancing" this I would start by removing both 'delayed infusion' and 'delayed utility', using the regular progression instead. Depending on what the rest of your party is like, you'll probably need more than that.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Help with First Edition Kineticist Elemental Avatar Rework

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfswift View Post
    I'm in his group, I can confirm our DM says it's fine to rebalance it. Also he can't post links, so I agreed to post his links, here.
    Pretty sure those links are against site rules.

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    Sheriff in the Playground Administrator
     
    Roland St. Jude's Avatar

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    Default Re: Help with First Edition Kineticist Elemental Avatar Rework

    Sheriff: Thread reopened. Please do not post links to copyrighted/pirated texts.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2019-11-06 at 10:07 AM.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GrayDeath's Avatar

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    Default Re: Help with First Edition Kineticist Elemental Avatar Rework

    Generally speaking, the Kineticist is so weak, or alternativlely his uses so narrow, that he can be buffed/changed quite a bit before he becomes a problem.

    What is the composition of the party? Cause depending on that, we might be able to recommend solutions above making him do a wee bit more damage....
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Help with First Edition Kineticist Elemental Avatar Rework

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Generally speaking, the Kineticist is so weak, or alternativlely his uses so narrow, that he can be buffed/changed quite a bit before he becomes a problem.

    What is the composition of the party? Cause depending on that, we might be able to recommend solutions above making him do a wee bit more damage....
    IIRC we have me the elemetal avatar, then we have a knight (from adamant entertainment), a rogue and an unsworn shaman

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GrayDeath's Avatar

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    Default Re: Help with First Edition Kineticist Elemental Avatar Rework

    OK, so voerall lower Power classes, with the possible Exception of the Shaman (dont know the PF versions).

    As you have a Rogue and a Knight as CLose Combatters and possible Damage Dealers, playing a Kineticist might be even more suboptimal than normal, but without knowing what they are built for, that remains speculation.

    I didnt find the Elemental Avatar Archetype in the SRD, so I dont know how exactly it is different, but for the regular Kineticist, the main problems are Burn and the very narrow focus on bad" Elemental Manipulation and average Damage.
    THats where you should put your mind to: Do you want more Damage, more flexibility or both?
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    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Help with First Edition Kineticist Elemental Avatar Rework

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    OK, so voerall lower Power classes, with the possible Exception of the Shaman (dont know the PF versions).

    As you have a Rogue and a Knight as CLose Combatters and possible Damage Dealers, playing a Kineticist might be even more suboptimal than normal, but without knowing what they are built for, that remains speculation.

    I didnt find the Elemental Avatar Archetype in the SRD, so I dont know how exactly it is different, but for the regular Kineticist, the main problems are Burn and the very narrow focus on bad" Elemental Manipulation and average Damage.
    THats where you should put your mind to: Do you want more Damage, more flexibility or both?
    Oh, elemental avatar is a 3rd party archetype from knights of porphorya. My GM is allowing all 4 knights of porphorya, which are all suplemmental books for kineticist. Elemental Avatar allows you to have air, fire, earth, and water as primary elements at level 1. however the drawback is severe
    as it delays progression of infusions and wild talents, but I was able to get past a replacement for it along with getting back my first level infusion that instead I take 1 more nonlethal per point of burn. The buff I was asking about was if it was balanced to replace such major drawbacks with a minor one. Upon actually looking at how lowly kineticist is rated, I will saw yes. I am also asking about other various minor buffs I can give the class since I do really like the flavor of the class and the core idea of it, even if paizo apparently dropped the ball on the class.

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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Help with First Edition Kineticist Elemental Avatar Rework

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    OK, so voerall lower Power classes, with the possible Exception of the Shaman (dont know the PF versions).
    Shaman is a full caster, so solid by default. PF rogue is pretty good, and hands-down much better than kinny. Elemental Avatar is weaker than kinny, which strikes me as a problem. Note that the best element for kinny (aether) is not available to the avatar.

    OP still hasn't specified level, which is rather important, nor what he actually wants from the avatar. Because the straightforward answer is "play a sorcerer".
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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: Help with First Edition Kineticist Elemental Avatar Rework

    Just so y'all know, a lot (though not all) of the Kineticists of Porphyra stuff is on the SoPwiki. For instance, the Elemental Avatar AT. As for the balance of the AT, it seems fine to me. You get four elements from the start in exchange for slightly delayed infusion and utility. If you want to keep that stuff but still have damage versatility, I recommend picking up the Light, Time, or Sound elements (also from Porphyra) instead. Unless you really want to be the Avatar...
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Help with First Edition Kineticist Elemental Avatar Rework

    Personally, I think the Kineticist is irredeemable garbage.

    Since your GM is open to 3rd party material, may I suggest the Mystic from Path of War?

    Concentrate on their native Elemental Flux discipline and right out of the box you're bending the 4 classic elements without needing to constantly punch yourself in the face in order to not suck.

    Pick the Aurora Soul archetype if you want more of a Martial Arts vibe.

    If you really want to boot people in the head, you could switch it up by using the Steel Fist Commando archetype of the Warlord class, using the Unorthodox Method trait and Tap Animus feat in order to get back to the bendiness. That set up would be much better at punching face, but with less randomness and party boosting.

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    Default Re: Help with First Edition Kineticist Elemental Avatar Rework

    Quote Originally Posted by Aar60493 View Post
    The buff I was asking about was if it was balanced to replace such major drawbacks with a minor one. Upon actually looking at how lowly kineticist is rated, I will saw yes. I am also asking about other various minor buffs I can give the class since I do really like the flavor of the class and the core idea of it, even if paizo apparently dropped the ball on the class.
    My recommendation is that you play another class or archetype. The vast majority of kinny archetypes aren't worth the trouble of tweaking, and there are some great alternatives with practically the same or a similar flavor:

    1. Avowed (part 1, part 2, additional options and playtest discussion thread). The Avowed is a very well-designed and fun class with a very warlock-ish flavor. This is the kinny done right. You won't ever regret switching to this, believe me.

    2. Roil Dancer archetype is a bit more martial than the vanilla kinny, but uses maneuvers which are vastly better and more varied tools than what the vanilla kinny has. If you absolutely have to play a kinny, this is AFAIK the only option really worth considering.

    3. Mystic For a more martial bent with a bit of party support, play a Mystic focusing on the Elemental Flux discipline as Andor13 suggested. It's a very fun class with tons of options allowing for a huge variety of distinctly different good builds (might also be worth taking a look at the Phoenix Champion PrC if you're focusing on ranged attacks).

    4. Sorcerer When it comes to blasting with elemental damage, as Kurald hinted at the sorcerer is so superior to the kinny it's not even fun, and it has access to a ton of great utility options the kinny can only dream of.

    Choosing either of the above will save you from a lot of headache, as there are no easy tweaks to save the kinny from mediocrity and IMO a very boring static playstyle.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Help with First Edition Kineticist Elemental Avatar Rework

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Shaman is a full caster, so solid by default. PF rogue is pretty good, and hands-down much better than kinny. Elemental Avatar is weaker than kinny, which strikes me as a problem. Note that the best element for kinny (aether) is not available to the avatar.

    OP still hasn't specified level, which is rather important, nor what he actually wants from the avatar. Because the straightforward answer is "play a sorcerer".
    Ahh, my bad. We are all level 1. I wanted to go kineticist because it reminded me of alchemist, but with a cool and different flavor and thought that using constitution as a primary stat was really novel. I saw a lot of versatility, decent blasting options, and a cool front line fighter once I got kinetic blade up and running. I also like all the custom items and feats that knights of porhorya gave them, making them feel a lot better as a class, as there were ways to mitigate burn damage and there was a feat that allowed to accept more burn in total. I just wanted to play something different, and try and break away from my tendency to be a bit power gamey. Also for elemental avatar, I got it by my GM that instead of losing my level 1 infusion and delayed infusions and wild talents, that I just get 1 more nonlethal per point of burn, so I am pretty sure it is just better now. I was also thinking of getting the intelligent mutation, giving up my ability to take a full round action to gather power in exchange for 2 extra skill points per level and adding 2 class skills of my choice, to be a decent skill monkey.

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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Help with First Edition Kineticist Elemental Avatar Rework

    Quote Originally Posted by Aar60493 View Post
    Ahh, my bad. We are all level 1. I wanted to go kineticist because it reminded me of alchemist, but with a cool and different flavor and thought that using constitution as a primary stat was really novel.
    It is definitely a very flavorful class, and I love the concept of gather power. It's just that mechanically speaking, the kinny is downright embarrassing.

    Here's the catch: you have a lot of versatility in build choice because there are so many talents to pick from. But you have almost zero versatility in gameplay because of how very few talents you get, the talents you want can often not be combined on the same build, and you run out of burn very quickly. So you end up doing the same thing over and over again, every round; that's not very versatile.

    And if you compare it to any partial spellcaster like a bard, then they get the same abilities three or four levels earlier than you do. E.g. most talents that you get at level eight are the equivalent of spells people get at level four.

    You do become a cool frontline fighter with kinetic blade. However, the best way to play one is one level of kinny for the blade talent, then all your other levels in swashbuckler or bloodrager or something. I'd really save yourself the frustration and go with Andor's or Upho's alternatives.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2019-11-07 at 05:00 AM.
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