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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    deuterio12's Avatar

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    Once again, Followers of the Bramble is the webcomic you are reading. Here at Order of the Stick, the Gods have very clearly explained they do make real attempts to save their followers before the Snarl escapes; this time, however, the situation with the Gates (and now the Bet with Hel) makes that course of action a much more complicated matter than it otherwise (presumably) has been in the past.
    No idea what that followers of the bambe is, but in Order of the Stick Thor was talking about saving the mortal's juicy souls, which otherwise would be destroyed by the Snarl. A terrible waste of perfectly fine food.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    Thor, specifically, is also having Durkon enact a plan that will save EVERYONE on this world and FOREVER contain the threat of the Snarl--so at the very least that makes one God who clearly cares for mortalkind.
    In order of the stick, the Snarl is a threat to the gods themselves, so of course the gods would love a way of dealing with it for good.

    Still a plan B for evacuating the mortals in case the Snarl breaks free yet again wouldn't hurt-Wait, it would, that's why Thor and the other gods aren't bothering with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    As far as "The Snarl must be kept secret at all costs," that's demonstrably false considering Thor was quick to "bend the rules" to let Minrah in on the Snarl situation (yes, she sort of had an idea already, but she clearly lacked vital information that Thor didn't particularly care to press her on). Yes, the Snarl isn't common knowledge, but that also doesn't mean that all the Gods are going out of their way to purge Knowledge of the Snarl from existence.
    In order of the stick Minrah herself points out it's forbidden by their religion to even ask why there's a whole pantheon of missing gods.

    If Thor's sharing some info, it's because a) time is running out for this one shot at locking out the eldritch abomination that could slay Thor himself so he's taking a gamble or/and b)he's drunk as usual.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-11-12 at 02:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    The Snarl must be kept secret.

    The mortals must believe the gods supreme above everything.

    And more important the mortals can't be allowed to realize they don't actually need the gods, their souls already go to their aligned planes by default anyway.

    Any mortals that are allowed to survive with knowledge of the Snarl and that the gods aren't that supreme and that it's perfectly possible to live in other places besides whatever ball of dirt the gods come up with, that's just asking for trouble in the long run for the gods very survival.
    Maybe, just maybe, the gods do it because if people knew about the Snarl, every single wannabe BBEG would be doing what Xykon is currently doing, or some other variation of ‘use it to get their way’ ?

    Ah yes, all those poor mortals believe the gods supreme and worshiping them at all occasions. Except Roy, who doesn’t care about the gods beyond "they created the world and are very powerful I guess. Nifty." and isn’t surprised when he goes to LG afterlife without being claimed by a god. Haley never prays either. Let’s not talk about Belkar. Elan worships Banjo. The dwarves know they don’t need to worship the gods, just to die with honor.

    Gods are more of a “Become our clerics and we give you magic powers. Pray to us and maybe we, über-powerful beings that we are, will lend you some help, and you get to go to our private after-life when you die.” Deal rather than “Pray or get annihilated.”
    Last edited by Theshipening; 2019-11-12 at 04:39 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Dr.Zero's Avatar

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    Once again, Followers of the Bramble is the webcomic you are reading.
    I wouldn't dismiss Deuterio12's points so quickly.
    Mortals are the equivalent of cattle for them, indeed. When living, milked for nice believing juice. When died, slowly transformed in food (I think the author himself talked about "batteries", not sure though).

    Granted, good Gods are still better than Evil, since they treat their cattle in a nicer fashion[1]. But nonetheless...

    [1] One, indeed, might wonder why Evil gods don't treat their followers a little better. You know, Hel, if, instead of torturing them, you gave them beer and some nice cloud caves tree free, maybe dwarves wouldn't be so hostile to the idea of ending up with you. [2]

    [2] Otoh, one could argue that Hel is not really capable of self determination, and no God is really able to do that, they are just projection of what people think they should be, puppets driven by common belief, which is apparently what Loki says, and common belief is that Hel must mistreat souls.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandariel View Post
    We saw how many words there are: Where are all these high level characters that could heavily swing the plot in either direction?

    We already know: they don't survive the intermission. Remember Thor explaining about having to wait until the Snarl quietened down and some godlings not surviving and thus his fears for The Dark One?

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    The real sad thing of this debate? That we will never know if H's plan was going to work. :D

    (On a side note, I liked the metaphor discussion about the Snarl and the counter argument about "as long as there is one playing it, then...", it was very interesting. Being myself a fan of the idea "at the end we will get the cutscene showing the players starting another game", it fits with my tastes)

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    I wouldn't dismiss Deuterio12's points so quickly.
    Mortals are the equivalent of cattle for them, indeed. When living, milked for nice believing juice. When died, slowly transformed in food (I think the author himself talked about "batteries", not sure though).

    Granted, good Gods are still better than Evil, since they treat their cattle in a nicer fashion[1].
    I am not dismissing their claims, I simply find them deeply flawed and deuterio12 has a history of boiling the comic down to the simplest (and most negative) explanation devoid of any nuance.

    Yes, mortals are "food" for the Gods, but unless you're about to take a hardline stance against any being ever needing food as a means to literally survive, then the argument is a lot more complicated than "mortals are just cattle." Mortals, unlike cattle, have been shown to negatively affect the Gods--Odin is essentially brain-damaged because the Northerners in the last world decided (as in, seemingly made the free-willed choice, despite it being against Odin's personal health/interests) that magic was to be shunned. So while yes, mortals ultimately end up as "food," there is clearly some level of risk involved for the Gods everytime they make a new world.

    So again, my problem with deuterio12's stance is that it removes any nuance and boils down, ultimately, to "I want the Gods to not eat at all and just wither away to nothingness." Which, fine, is an opinion one can have, but it also ignores the fact* that it would leave the Snarl unchecked causing mortals to not even get the benefit of an afterlife. So their impassioned defense of The Plight of Mortals actually leads to the worst possible scenario for mortals. It's contradictory.

    *Based on what we know so far...obviously the world-within-the-rift complicates things, but until we learn more this is the info we are operating under

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Theshipening View Post
    Maybe, just maybe, the gods do it because if people knew about the Snarl, every single wannabe BBEG would be doing what Xykon is currently doing, or some other variation of ‘use it to get their way’ ?

    Ah yes, all those poor mortals believe the gods supreme and worshiping them at all occasions. Except Roy, who doesn’t care about the gods beyond "they created the world and are very powerful I guess. Nifty." and isn’t surprised when he goes to LG afterlife without being claimed by a god. Haley never prays either. Let’s not talk about Belkar. Elan worships Banjo. The dwarves know they don’t need to worship the gods, just to die with honor.

    Gods are more of a “Become our clerics and we give you magic powers. Pray to us and maybe we, über-powerful beings that we are, will lend you some help, and you get to go to our private after-life when you die.” Deal rather than “Pray or get annihilated.”
    Also, I second all of this.

    EDIT 2:
    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    In order of the stick, the Snarl is a threat to the gods themselves, so of course the gods would love a way of dealing with it for good.

    Still a plan B for evacuating the mortals in case the Snarl breaks free yet again wouldn't hurt-Wait, it would, that's why Thor and the other gods aren't bothering with it.
    Case in point: Here's is an example of that "most simple/negative" interpretation. Plan B is exactly what they're saying the Gods aren't doing--safely evacuating mortals' souls before the Snarl devours them--but because the Gods need mortal souls to survive deuterio12 has an issue with it and so their stance becomes "The Gods are 100% selfish." Except...what are they supposed to do, not "eat" at all and literally kill themselves? Ok, but then goodbye all mortals, too, so....*shrug*
    Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-11-12 at 08:41 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    My guess is that plane shifters eventually get memory-wiped and eventually die of old age at whatever plane they end up.

    First, killing everybody may cause hassles both for Good gods (moral conundrums and such) and for Evil ones (less pawns for their schemes). You also need to check every plane for every living being. This doesn't seem practical when they already memory-wipe Outsiders, so why not extend it to all creatures? Much less trouble and less likely to start petty fights between gods for deaths and such.

    Second, TDO has been building up power for (presumably) centuries, from many thousands of goblins and related races. If gods with more followers and whole pantheons backing them up (as Thor said here) can't survive the interim period, it's likely that no mortal can. Also, the gods are hyperbolic at everything, so the bureaucracy in deciding a new world and the time for each god to decide on something to create probably is as well.

    If my theory is correct, it's quite sad for Kudzu, since he'll get memory-wiped and will never remember his father

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    I am not dismissing their claims, I simply find them deeply flawed and deuterio12 has a history of boiling the comic down to the simplest (and most negative) explanation devoid of any nuance.

    Yes, mortals are "food" for the Gods, but unless you're about to take a hardline stance against any being ever needing food as a means to literally survive, then the argument is a lot more complicated than "mortals are just cattle." Mortals, unlike cattle, have been shown to negatively affect the Gods--Odin is essentially brain-damaged because the Northerners in the last world decided (as in, seemingly made the free-willed choice, despite it being against Odin's personal health/interests) that magic was to be shunned. So while yes, mortals ultimately end up as "food," there is clearly some level of risk involved for the Gods everytime they make a new world.

    So again, my problem with deuterio12's stance is that it removes any nuance and boils down, ultimately, to "I want the Gods to not eat at all and just wither away to nothingness." Which, fine, is an opinion one can have, but it also ignores the fact* that it would leave the Snarl unchecked causing mortals to not even get the benefit of an afterlife. So their impassioned defense of The Plight of Mortals actually leads to the worst possible scenario for mortals. It's contradictory.

    *Based on what we know so far...obviously the world-within-the-rift complicates things, but until we learn more this is the info we are operating under

    EDIT:


    Also, I second all of this.

    EDIT 2:


    Case in point: Here's is an example of that "most simple/negative" interpretation. Plan B is exactly what they're saying the Gods aren't doing--safely evacuating mortals' souls before the Snarl devours them--but because the Gods need mortal souls to survive deuterio12 has an issue with it and so their stance becomes "The Gods are 100% selfish." Except...what are they supposed to do, not "eat" at all and literally kill themselves? Ok, but then goodbye all mortals, too, so....*shrug*
    Does that make Odin's condition the goldy equivalent of heart disease.

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Does that make Odin's condition the goldy equivalent of heart disease.
    Something like that, though our food isn't actively trying to give us heart disease (I don't think...we shouldn't rule out the possibility that this is our cattles' ultimate plan. The cows are undoubtedly the masterminds, if true!).

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Does that make Odin's condition the goldy equivalent of heart disease.
    I'd say its closer to really bad food poisoning, because Hel's condition seems closer to heart disease, she has too much of an unhealthy food after all.
    Spoiler: Read this if I've posted a theory in the post above
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    "A sufficiently big wedge of cheese is indistinguishable from an aircraft."

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I'd say its closer to really bad food poisoning, because Hel's condition seems closer to heart disease, she has too much of an unhealthy food after all.
    See, given that Hel's problem comes from a nutritional deficit, i'd say she has, for lack of a better term, God Diabetes.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    See, given that Hel's problem comes from a nutritional deficit, i'd say she has, for lack of a better term, God Diabetes.
    I'd say it's more like a vitamin deficiency. Diabetes is the result of a bodily organ (the pancreas) not producing insulin to regulate the body's blood sugar level. Hel, on the other hand, is specifically not receiving an essential part of her "diet." She's lacking Vitamin C(leric).

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    I'd say it's more like a vitamin deficiency. Diabetes is the result of a bodily organ (the pancreas) not producing insulin to regulate the body's blood sugar level. Hel, on the other hand, is specifically not receiving an essential part of her "diet." She's lacking Vitamin C(leric).
    The idea of Hel having God Scurvy works for me; real scurvy starts as gum disease, sure, but then all your scars open back up, like some sorta fantasy plague. It's cool as hell, if also more grisly than the bear.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    I have no backing for this, but the answer to me seems to be really simple: The gods do nothing about mortals who escape to other planes.

    Some of them probably plane shift back (because they were on the other plane for other reasons when reality ended) and oops, reality ended while you were gone. One more soul for the good gods to mourn and the evil ones to mourn not getting to use as a battery.

    The rest probably sit around on the plane they were on just like the outsiders, very concerned about all the souls that just came through from everywhere all at once, or confused because no souls have come through in ages and no one who's gone to the material plane to see what's going on has come back. They're probably dead by old age the time it's time to update (and mind wipe) the outsiders for the next iteration and even if they're not the gods are already at it, what's one more mind wipe update?

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Not to be that guy, but technically... the gods DO have a plan to shift everyone to the outer planes before destroying the world.

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Not to be that guy, but technically... the gods DO have a plan to shift everyone to the outer planes before destroying the world.
    You're not being "that guy"; that's what everyone except deuterio12 has been saying. I said it myself further up thread (see bolded part, in particular):

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    Case in point: Here's an example of that "most simple/negative" interpretation. Plan B is exactly what they're (deuterio12) saying the Gods aren't doing--safely evacuating mortals' souls before the Snarl devours them--but because the Gods need mortal souls to survive deuterio12 has an issue with it and so their stance becomes "The Gods are 100% selfish." Except...what are they supposed to do, not "eat" at all and literally kill themselves? Ok, but then goodbye all mortals, too, so....*shrug*
    Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-11-12 at 11:02 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    I wouldn't dismiss Deuterio12's points so quickly.
    Mortals are the equivalent of cattle for them, indeed. When living, milked for nice believing juice
    I’m not happy with this characterization..

    People live, the believe, they worship, they die, their souls eventually get absorbed into some outer plane. But living, believing, worshipping, dying, and being absorbed into an outer plane might just be a thing that just... happens. We don't need to assume gods are controlling it, much less architecting it.

    We don’t have evidence they’re cracking souls open and sucking out on soul juice like bone marrow.

    And before we go all “first law of thermodynamics” to say that since the gods have some benefit, that means mortals must suffer some loss. There’s no “three laws of belief-o-dynamics” that says soul power is a zero sum energy..

    But even if you choose a personal head canon where it is zero sum, that doesn’t mean gods are harming mortals. Plants get energy from the sun. Nobody accuses plants of sucking the sun dry like some kind of evil light vampire. When the sun goes out in 7 billion years (or whatever), nobody is going to accuse plants of being greedy and using up all the sun as food.

    (Actually, if the internet still exists, I’m sure someone will say that. And someone else will engage in an argument with that person. But that’s not my point.)

    (Well, engaging in a pointless argument against a silly interpretation of the universe is actually my point. I’ll show myself out.)
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-11-13 at 11:59 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    If you're desperate for some justification for the God's using worshipers as food, think of it like this. They're providing souls a service in the form of an afterlife. Infinite pleasures, reunions with long-lost loved ones, eternal youth, a lifespan of thousands of years, and the chance to gain knowledge and enlightenment beyond what they could even dream about in life.

    From Roy's mountain, it seems to suggest that it's a Soul's choice on when to ascend to the top of the mountain, reach enlightenment, and become one with the plane itself. Anyone can decide "i'm not going to do that", but since you're in this particular afterlife, you'll eventually probably want to ascend for one reason or another. Either because you're bored, the rest of your family has gone, you need new meaning in unlife, or you just feel like it's time. Nothing is stopping you from not going, but you will most likely choose to go sooner or later. Can't speak for the more evil afterlives though, who knows for them.

    But what's the alternative? Mortals die, and then their souls just pop out of existence like they were never even born?

    I know which one i'd choose if given the choice.
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2019-11-13 at 12:15 PM.
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  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    If you're desperate for some justification for the God's using worshipers as food...
    Do they use the word “food” in the comic? Or Is that just an invention of someone on the forum?

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Do they use the word “food” in the comic? Or Is that just an invention of someone on the forum?
    I don't think anyone called souls "food" in universe, but it's easy to get the impression that, at least to the evil gods, that's what they'd think of it as, because the "we used to have a pyramid that explained this better, but I don't think we use that anymore"[1]? That's a reference to the "food pyramid" for mortal nutrition, and "souls" is one of the four groups on it for gods. I don't think souls are actually consumed by gods in a way that is harmful to the soul, but I do think that it's fair to say that, at the minimum, souls are food for gods in the same way that apple trees are for mortals.

    [1] OTS1144: "That's Jack's Fault" . I can't post links yet, but that should be citation enough, right?

    EDIT: In short, it is an invention of someone on the forum, but it's also a perspective you can reach from the comic, and I think this is one of the places people found evidence towards that conclusion from.
    Last edited by ParadoxPotentia; 2019-11-13 at 02:55 PM.

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by ParadoxPotentia View Post
    I do think that it's fair to say that, at the minimum, souls are food for gods in the same way that apple trees are for mortals..
    I’m happy to agree that gods get nourishment from souls in the same way plants get nourishment from the sun.

    But I’m uncomfortable with assuming that “nourishment” means “food”. I don’t think we’ve seen a god “eat” a soul.

    We know gods get nourishment from souls in the afterlife, and we know that souls in the afterlife are absorbed into the plane that matches their alignment. But it seems like a big jump from there to say that gods somehow eat the souls like apples, anymore than plants “eat” the sun.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-11-13 at 03:10 PM.

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Thor was talking about saving the mortal's juicy souls, which otherwise would be destroyed by the Snarl. A terrible waste of perfectly fine food.
    If Thor was just concerned with saving the souls, then why wouldn't he just order all the dwarves to kill one another and then join the God's hoping to destroy the world?

    Yes the Snarl is a threat to the God's, this world more than ever due to Redcloaks plan, but half of the Northern pantheon is still willing to have the possibility their lives ending. If these God's were just self-preserving douches, they would have all voted in favor of ending the world, but they didn't.

    So maybe the God's trust or care for the mortals, otherwise they wouldn't risk it all for the chance to see if the mortals can fix it

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I’m happy to agree that gods get nourishment from souls in the same way plants get nourishment from the sun.

    But I’m uncomfortable with assuming that “nourishment” means “food”. I don’t think we’ve seen a god “eat” a soul.

    We know gods get nourishment from souls in the afterlife, and we know that souls in the afterlife are absorbed into the plane that matches their alignment. But it seems like a big jump from there to say that gods somehow eat the souls like apples, anymore than plants “eat” the sun.
    [Agreed]. I'm saying "gods don't eat the souls" any more than you eat the apple tree. But Gods eat/consume/absorb "something the soul produces" in the same way that Humans eat "something the apple tree produces" and Plants eat "something the sun produces", and a lot of the "gods view humanity as cattle" people's posts read nearly the same if you assume gods eat "the milk" rather than "the cows". (and the milk is something the cow produces.) Now, I'm not confident I'm right, but that's the baseline concept- that souls are a food source abet not a food.

    I don't think the gods view humanity as cattle, but I do think it's fair to assume a soul has a production cap (Hel clearly believes that sufficient quantity will be enough to put her in a position of "top dog" next time) and that each soul can only produce a finite amount of nutrition, and therefore it would not surprise me if some gods see mortals and souls as like cattle, even if they live on the milk and not the meat.
    Last edited by ParadoxPotentia; 2019-11-13 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Edits noted in []

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    i think it's safe to assume that most gods don't view mortals as cattle simply by virtue of how many different kinds of worlds they've created. From fantasy, to cyberpunk, to steampunk, to living snack foods, to every other genre of world in-between.

    If they only cared about mortals as cattle, then it'd be easier to just copy-paste the same setting over and over again with very few alterations. But they're not, they're creators, artists, and leaders. They want to create art, stories, and adventures for their subjects, they want the world to be interesting and fun, challenging and exiting.

    Mortals produce what a god needs to survive yes, but they seem much more interested in the creation of, maintaining of, and adventures of said mortals then anything else.
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I’m not happy with this characterization..

    People live, the believe, they worship, they die, their souls eventually get absorbed into some outer plane. But living, believing, worshipping, dying, and being absorbed into an outer plane might just be a thing that just... happens. We don't need to assume gods are controlling it, much less architecting it.
    You seem to forget a very tiny detail: mortals and material plane are created by gods exactly as they are.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    We don’t have evidence they’re cracking souls open and sucking out on soul juice like bone marrow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post

    And before we go all “first law of thermodynamics” to say that since the gods have some benefit, that means mortals must suffer some loss. There’s no “three laws of belief-o-dynamics” that says soul power is a zero sum energy..

    But even if you choose a personal head canon where it is zero sum, that doesn’t mean gods are harming mortals. Plants get energy from the sun. Nobody accuses plants of sucking the sun dry like some kind of evil light vampire. When the sun goes out in 7 billion years (or whatever), nobody is going to accuse plants of being greedy and using up all the sun as food.
    You seem to make some very strange comparisons.

    Aside the fact that sun exists before plants, and is not a creation of plants for the sole purpose of granting them food (and maybe entertainment), surely enough I can admit plants take part of their nourishment from sun.
    So?
    I take part of my nourishment from steaks, so, since that is the same that plants do with sun, this makes the cow killed less of a cattle?


    Now, let's compare sun and plants, cattle and humans, and mortals and gods, would you?

    Where the cattle live? In a corral, aka a space created by us to make them live there and then give us food.
    Where the mortals live? On the material plane, aka a space created by gods to make them live there and give them food. Checked.
    Where the sun "lives"? In the universe, aka a space not created by the plants. Unchecked.

    How we deal with the cattle? We actively breed them, actively milk them, eat their carcasses.
    How the gods deal with mortals? They actively create them, actively (through diffusing the belief in them via their clerics) milk them for belief, eat their souls. Close enough.
    How the plants deal with sun? They don't create and neither breed it, can't do actively anything to it, and passively get the "milk" it diffuses, underlining the "passively". Unchecked, again.

    Long story made short: if your point is that everything alive must feed itself, sure, I agree, I've even said that the good gods do that in a quite nice fashion; if then, with some strange comparison, you want to prove that creatures created with the exact purpose to feed someone else are not cattle, well, good luck, because you'll need it.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    How the gods deal with mortals? They actively create them, actively (through diffusing the belief in them via their clerics) milk them for belief, eat their souls. Close enough.
    gods don't "Eat" souls though, they never have. Souls just kind of linger in the afterlife providing passive power while enjoying the afterlife's existance, until the ultimately choose to or reach enlitenment and merge with the afterlife itself. at no point is a soul on thor's plate.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    you want to prove that creatures created with the exact purpose to feed someone else are not cattle, well, good luck, because you'll need it.
    Who said mortals are created with the purpose of feeding the gods? I missed that comic.

    Is rain created to slake your thirst?

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Now, let's compare sun and plants, cattle and humans, and mortals and gods, would you?

    Where the cattle live? In a corral, aka a space created by us to make them live there and then give us food.
    Where the mortals live? On the material plane, aka a space created by gods to make them live there and give them food. Checked.
    Where the sun "lives"? In the universe, aka a space not created by the plants. Unchecked.

    How we deal with the cattle? We actively breed them, actively milk them, eat their carcasses.
    How the gods deal with mortals? They actively create them, actively (through diffusing the belief in them via their clerics) milk them for belief, eat their souls. Close enough.
    How the plants deal with sun? They don't create and neither breed it, can't do actively anything to it, and passively get the "milk" it diffuses, underlining the "passively". Unchecked, again.

    Long story made short: if your point is that everything alive must feed itself, sure, I agree, I've even said that the good gods do that in a quite nice fashion; if then, with some strange comparison, you want to prove that creatures created with the exact purpose to feed someone else are not cattle, well, good luck, because you'll need it.
    1) Do the Cattlemen kill the Cattle to eat it? Yes.
    Do the Gods kill the Mortals to eat them? No.

    2) Do Cattle choose to get slaughtered and eaten by it's owner? No.
    Do Mortals choose to worship a God and go to it's demiplane in the Afterlife instead of the default plane that correlates with his Alignment? Yes.

    3) Do Cattle choose it's owner? No.
    Do Mortals choose their God, if any, and can freely change Religion? Yes.

    4) Can Cattle freely avoid to become food for it's owner? No.
    Can Mortals freely avoid to become "food" for a God? Yes. A Mortal that refuses to worship any God, does not fuel the Gods and goes to the default plane correlated to his alignment.

    5) Do the life of Cattle have any further purpose than to become food for their owners? No.
    Do the life of a Mortal have any further purpose than to become food for the Gods? It can, as a Mortal can choose not to be fuel for the Gods and give his existence another purpose.

    6) In short, Do Cattle have Free Will? No.
    Do Mortals have Free Will? Yes.

    7) Speaking of Free Will... Do Cattlemen have Free Will? Yes.
    Do Gods have Free Will? Not really, as their actions are limited by what Mortals believe about them.

    8) Because, in the end... can the belief of Cattle change the Cattlemen? No.
    Can the belief of Mortals change the Gods? Yes.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-11-13 at 05:41 PM.

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    1) Do the cattlemen kill the Cattle to eat it? Yes.
    Do the Gods kill the Mortals to eat them? No.
    They could make them immortal.
    So, yeah, "died of old age" to give us our soul, is exactly that.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    2) Can the belief of Cattle change the Cattlemen? No.
    Can the belief of Mortals change the Gods? Yes.

    3) Do Cattle choose to get slaughtered and eaten by it's owner? No.
    Do Mortals choose to worship a God and go to it's demiplane in the Afterlife instead of the default plane that correlates with his Alignment? Yes.

    4) Do Cattle choose it's owner? No.
    Do Mortals choose their God, if any, and can freely change Religion? Yes.

    5) Can Cattle freely avoid to become food for it's owner? No.
    Can Mortals freely avoid to become "food" for a God? Yes. A Mortal that refuses to worship any God, does not fuel the Gods and goes to the default plane correlated to his alignment.

    6) Do the life of Cattle have any further purpose than to become food for their owners? No.
    Do the life of a Mortal have any further purpose than to become food for the Gods? It can, as a Mortal can choose not to be fuel for the Gods and give his existence another purpose.

    7) In short, Do Cattle have Free Will? No.
    Do Mortals have Free Will? Yes.

    8) Speaking of Free Will... Do Cattlemen have Free Will? Yes.
    Do Gods have Free Will? Not really, as their actions are limited by what Mortals believe about them.
    [/quote]

    This is another interesting point... since has 0 correlation with what being a cattle is.
    Dear gods, I didn't think it was so hard, but here we go: cattle are creatures kept, bred, milked and killed for food. Full stop.

    You seem to think that I said: "Mortals are cows."

    No, I said that for the gods mortals are cattle, and that fit the definition.
    But maybe you need some counter argument to your own, so let's enter the madness.

    Let's call to help mr Lovercraft and his De La Poer family. They captured and enslaved humans keeping them in a secret cave, breeding them (and interbreeding them, up to make them deformed and quadrupedial), eating them. Were they cattle to the De La Poer?
    Was the first captured generation, which was presumably sentient and completely human, cattle for them?

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    They could make them immortal.
    Which comic is that in?

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