Help with choosing best build/strategy for 20th level PvP duels?

[Nhorianscum]

Well, nuclear sorc is still dealing with contingency, items, clones, etc. so it's not like they'll automatically kill a target even if they get their "I kill you" off. For prepping, Sorc list misses out on some very important spells too (Simulacrum, Contingency, Magic Jar, Mind Blank, Shapechange, True Polymorph, Symbol, etc.) though of course, Wish can somewhat replicate them given enough time and effort.

The thing is that with a full refresh between fights these are functionally symmetrical effects.

The ability to remove these protections without contest is not symmetrical.

(Example: Contigency: Telekinisis (Brooch), Subtle Dispel, Subtle empowered hexcursed Nuke, with counterspell up for shield. We really can just outright murder opposing nuclear casters with no opportunity for interaction.)

I'm simplifying and exaggerating slightly for effect but metamagic really is "that" good.

[Greywander]

Should we say for the sake of the duel that Clones don't count (unless they were created during the duel)? It let's you survive if you lose, but otherwise dying and being revived as a clone should probably still count as losing.

Perhaps by the same token, any teleportation outside of the arena is blocked, including things like Plane Shift.

[Blood of Gaea]

Well, nuclear sorc is still dealing with contingency, items, clones, etc. so it's not like they'll automatically kill a target even if they get their "I kill you" off. For prepping, Sorc list misses out on some very important spells too (Simulacrum, Contingency, Magic Jar, Mind Blank, Shapechange, True Polymorph, Symbol, etc.) though of course, Wish can somewhat replicate them given enough time and effort.

A "Nuclear Wizard's" main shtick is stacking Empowered Evocation with Hexblade's Curse with Magic Missile to get 1d4+1+Mod+Prof for each dart. There is no such thing as a Nuclear Sorcerer, unless you have some build on hand I haven't heard of.

[Eldariel]

The thing is that with a full refresh between fights these are functionally symmetrical effects.

The ability to remove these protections without contest is not symmetrical.

(Example: Contigency: Telekinisis (Brooch), Subtle Dispel, Subtle empowered hexcursed Nuke, with counterspell up for shield. We really can just outright murder opposing nuclear casters with no opportunity for interaction.)

I'm simplifying and exaggerating slightly for effect but metamagic really is "that" good.

Simplifying and exaggerating doesn't make for a compelling argument. "Telekinesis: Brooch" doesn't work in 3 different ways (6th level spell, doesn't target you, pretty iffy to describe any condition that would appropriately trigger it and no foolproof way to target the right item anyways). In fact, there's no easy answer to Brooch other than using a better spell, particularly if your enemy has like 10 Brooches one of which is magical; gl picking the right one (IIRC there's no Arcane Sight-type all day effect so you are down to guessing). Also, there's a much simpler answer to Counterspell than Subtle Spell: just being over 60' away or casting your own Counterspell. Subtle spell is entirely a waste of time: you can Counterspell their Counterspell or Shield and you're indeed forced to do that anyways. Subtle Spell in the setup you described does nothing. Of course, you're also not even necessarily doing enough damage to kill someone. Someone level 20 can have 16+ Con and with 6+4*19+3*20 they can potentially just facetank a single rotation of the spell even without magic items boosting Con (if their Con is like 30, we're looking at 282 HP without any sources of temporary HP active). Rod of Spell Absorption is a similar deal. There are other items too. This is definitely a battle of itemization first and foremost; trying to find some way to bypass enemy's defenses. Mundanes need not apply, so focus on the best caster solutions.

A "Nuclear Wizard's" main shtick is stacking Empowered Evocation with Hexblade's Curse with Magic Missile to get 1d4+1+Mod+Prof for each dart. There is no such thing as a Nuclear Sorcerer, unless you have some build on hand I haven't heard of.

That's fair; I was responding to someone calling the build that by just replacing Wizard with Sorc in the Hexblade 1/Fighter 2 chassis.

[sithlordnergal]

Just to make sure, you, the player, get to choose your items right? If so than here's what I would do:

Race: Yuan-Ti


Class: Moon Druid 20


Stats:

Str: 10

Dex: 14

Con: 14

Int: 10

Wis: 22

Cha: 12


Feats:

Alert

Heavily Armored


Items:

Scorpion Armor

Staff of Fire

Boots of Striding and Springing

+3 Shield, or that shield that gives +2 to Initative

Book that Boosts Wisdom by 2


Your main strategy here is to go first, and with Alert, Scorpion Armor, and potentially the shield you have a +14 to Initiative. Afterwards, pop off a spell that you can retarget every round, turn into an Elemental, and either dive underground or fly into the sky to avoid damage.

Alternatively, you can take an 18 Wisdom, boost it to 20 with the book, and grab Mobile on top of the other two feats

[col_impact]

Are you allowed to get legendary magic items?

Yes but any items musy be legally acquired through AL play, AL Dming, or AL trade. You can't just build a character from scratch at 20th level. That may sound like a long haul but doing your share of DMing greatly accelerates things. And also you want to actually practice the ins and outs of your character in play.

But feel free to propose a dream list for discussion. This then guides the path of progression the character takes in pkay.

[sithlordnergal]

Yes but any items musy be legally acquired through AL play, AL Dming, or AL trade. You can't just build a character from scratch at 20th level. That may sound like a long haul but doing your share of DMing greatly accelerates things. And also you want to actually practice the ins and outs of your character in play.

But feel free to propose a dream list for discussion. This then guides the path of progression the character takes in pkay.

Oh, then yeah, the items I proposed in my idea are relatively common. You do need to do some ToA and ToH, but they are obtainable.

[Nhorianscum]

Simplifying and exaggerating doesn't make for a compelling argument. "Telekinesis: Brooch" doesn't work in 3 different ways (6th level spell, doesn't target you, pretty iffy to describe any condition that would appropriately trigger it and no foolproof way to target the right item anyways). In fact, there's no easy answer to Brooch other than using a better spell, particularly if your enemy has like 10 Brooches one of which is magical; gl picking the right one (IIRC there's no Arcane Sight-type all day effect so you are down to guessing). Also, there's a much simpler answer to Counterspell than Subtle Spell: just being over 60' away or casting your own Counterspell. Subtle spell is entirely a waste of time: you can Counterspell their Counterspell or Shield and you're indeed forced to do that anyways. Subtle Spell in the setup you described does nothing. Of course, you're also not even necessarily doing enough damage to kill someone. Someone level 20 can have 16+ Con and with 6+4*19+3*20 they can potentially just facetank a single rotation of the spell even without magic items boosting Con (if their Con is like 30, we're looking at 282 HP without any sources of temporary HP active). Rod of Spell Absorption is a similar deal. There are other items too. This is definitely a battle of itemization first and foremost; trying to find some way to bypass enemy's defenses. Mundanes need not apply, so focus on the best caster solutions.



That's fair; I was responding to someone calling the build that by just replacing Wizard with Sorc in the Hexblade 1/Fighter 2 chassis.

Telekinisis is a 5th level spell that is self cast. It's always self target with an additional secondary target on-cast.

We're a 20th level arcane caster, we know what a brooch looks like. We can go into a long debate about the play and counterplay of the brooch hunt but at that point we're into "unlimited wish debate" territory so no. We can grab a damn brooch, or a stave, or a bloody sack of spell components, whatever. Unless this fictional fullcaster has big str booster this is a no-save control as our boosted spell save DC is 25+. In this example we are grabbing a -1 strmod. We can no-save-end-the-fight by just doing this with subtle Cspell up outside of our turn. I am suggesting grabbing a brooch on the basis that stealing lunch money is funny.

Yeah, no hexcurse/MM does not work outside of counterspell range. Blasting is a mid/skirmish range occupation by nature. Please don't argue range when the word "metamagic" is in use. We don't want to go down the distant spell rabbithole. It's a bad place.

Average HP for a nuclear wiz without the tough feat is 132.5 before temp Hp. As Nukewiz is slightly MAD (as most things borrowing the fi2/h1 engine are) it's safe to say that they're not rocking the friendly neighborhood DS's 300+ hp.

Subtle denies the opposing caster choice in this scenario as our counterspell is used only to shut off shield at 100% CoS. The main use is defensively as it is very hard to kill a character who can cast defensive magics through counterspell, or as a "I get to cast spells and you do not" within large field effects that interfere with casting.

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This is a singular example and is not a full analysis of a fight by any means.

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(Nuclear in this sense refers to the Fi2/Hex 1 engine attached to a chassis. When thief rouge gets to crank out 229.5 damage R1 with this engine it's sorta silly.).

[col_impact]

Should we say for the sake of the duel that Clones don't count (unless they were created during the duel)? It let's you survive if you lose, but otherwise dying and being revived as a clone should probably still count as losing.

Perhaps by the same token, any teleportation outside of the arena is blocked, including things like Plane Shift.

More info from the DM . . .

##1 min rule##
Everyone is bathed in <<Magic Reset>> field 1 minute prior to the duel so any magical prepatory measures you take must fit into that 1 minute prep time. And during that 1 min before the duel you do not have any awareness of your opponent.

E.g. cast mage armor, aid, mirror image prior to duel

Some things like Clone, Simulacrum or Find Familiar will take too long to prepare. Unless you expend your Wish spell to convert them into 1 action to cast. I still think Clone would be useless since it takes a while to mature but Wished Simulacrum is fair game.

This is to simulate a duel. Allowing more time and things start to look like going to war.

The one minute rule also applies to leaving the arena in the middle of the fight. If your tabaxi monk runs off or your wizard Plane Shifts away for example, you have 1 min to return to the arena or you forfeit by Delay of Game. If both players actively avoid dueling for longer than a minute then they both lose. Players can use hit and run tactics in this way as long as you adhere to the 1 minute rule.

What exactly constitutes an arena varies by random determination and can involve serious environmental hazards that God level duelists are expected to be able to manage.

[Greywander]

Find Familiar isn't affected by Dispel Magic. Once the spell is cast and the familiar is summoned, the spell is done. I believe this also applies to raised undead (I need to double-check this, though), but not to conjured creatures. I don't think this is a problem for familiars, but it might be an issue if someone is bringing their undead army into the duel with them. Also, a necromancer can dump basically infinite skeletons into a Bag of Holding, and although they won't be under his control after 24 hours he can still dump them out and they'll attack whatever is nearby. I don't think Dispel Magic will help with that.

Any spell with an Instantaneous duration won't be affected by Dispel Magic, as the spell has already finished. Just something to keep in mind.

The 1 minute rule will prevent a lot of hit-and-run or guerrilla tactics. Some characters specialize in sneaking around, striking suddenly, and then fading away, only to circle around and strike from a different angle. The 1 minute rule will force direct confrontations. Maybe that's what you want, but you should keep this in mind and build accordingly. It would certainly be interesting if the arenas were big enough and there was no time limit, that you could feasibly slink away and take a short or long rest in the middle of the duel, but that would be a much different experience.

[col_impact]

Find Familiar isn't affected by Dispel Magic. Once the spell is cast and the familiar is summoned, the spell is done. I believe this also applies to raised undead (I need to double-check this, though), but not to conjured creatures. I don't think this is a problem for familiars, but it might be an issue if someone is bringing their undead army into the duel with them. Also, a necromancer can dump basically infinite skeletons into a Bag of Holding, and although they won't be under his control after 24 hours he can still dump them out and they'll attack whatever is nearby. I don't think Dispel Magic will help with that.

Any spell with an Instantaneous duration won't be affected by Dispel Magic, as the spell has already finished. Just something to keep in mind.

The 1 minute rule will prevent a lot of hit-and-run or guerrilla tactics. Some characters specialize in sneaking around, striking suddenly, and then fading away, only to circle around and strike from a different angle. The 1 minute rule will force direct confrontations. Maybe that's what you want, but you should keep this in mind and build accordingly. It would certainly be interesting if the arenas were big enough and there was no time limit, that you could feasibly slink away and take a short or long rest in the middle of the duel, but that would be a much different experience.

I changed my post to reflect <<Magic Reset>> DM arbitrary rule. Players are welcome to build a force but must do so within a 1 minute prep time. This rule is in force since we are simulating duels and not wars.

Some amount of skeletons in bags of holding/portable hole (~16) will be allowed since minionmancy is an acceptable strategy. But not controlling them will present strategic problems for the necromancer as you will be simply adding an environmental hazard that could harm you just as well.

A player could after all show up with a Horn of Valhalla and go with that (max 1 Horn of Valhalla of any type per player so no showing up with one of each) so players might need to pack some means of handling a bunch of CR 2 mooks or fall to a weenie strategy.

By the way, there is a rule in place for these God duels disallowing spamming of magic items so no 6 bags of holding or 3 wands of magic missiles. One of each is allowed. So Necromancers could have 1 bag of holding and 1 portable hole.

[Blood of Gaea]

Yeah, no hexcurse/MM does not work outside of counterspell range. Blasting is a mid/skirmish range occupation by nature. Please don't argue range when the word "metamagic" is in use. We don't want to go down the distant spell rabbithole. It's a bad place.

Average HP for a nuclear wiz without the tough feat is 132.5 before temp Hp. As Nukewiz is slightly MAD (as most things borrowing the fi2/h1 engine are) it's safe to say that they're not rocking the friendly neighborhood DS's 300+ hp.

When they're doing their Nuke round, the Wizard is casting two spells, one dealing ~159 damage, and the other dealing ~145 damage, assuming no other shennagins like Similacrum, etc.


Depending on the Sorcerer, that's enough to outright kill them even if they counter one.

The more pressing problem is that they can use Subtle Shield, which would shut down the main combo pretty hard. You have to respond with a Dispel Magic or use a different spell.

[MaxWilson]

More info from the DM . . .

##1 min rule##
Everyone is bathed in <<Magic Reset>> field 1 minute prior to the duel so any magical prepatory measures you take must fit into that 1 minute prep time. And during that 1 min before the duel you do not have any awareness of your opponent.

E.g. cast mage armor, aid, mirror image prior to duel

Well then I would definitely plan to set up a Programmed Illusion of yourself as a stalking horse, with a Snare nearby, and then vanish into a Rope Trick. None of these takes concentration and all three of them are only an action to cast so you can stack this technique with whatever else you've got going on (Greater Invisibility? Shapechange?).

Edit: oh, minions are allowed? In that case also prep 16 or so skeletons with bows, and use Seeming to make all of them and yourself look like plate-armored zombies with greatswords, except that one of the skeletons you'll disguise as a Medusa instead of a zombie. (Even though you'll be hiding in a Rope Trick you might as well have a backup plan, right?)

You want your enemy to waste his biggest nova on the illusion before you pop out and Feeblemind + Forcecage him, or whatever you're planning on doing.

When they're doing their Nuke round, the Wizard is casting two spells, one dealing ~159 damage, and the other dealing ~145 damage, assuming no other shennagins like Similacrum, etc.

Depending on the Sorcerer, that's enough to outright kill them even if they counter one.

The more pressing problem is that they can use Subtle Shield, which would shut down the main combo pretty hard. You have to respond with a Dispel Magic or use a different spell.

Hexblade's Curse only has 30' range, and Magic Missile (like Counterspell) only works on targets you can see within 120'.

I foresee Invisibility / True Seeing / Shadow of Moil / etc. being pivotal in many of these matchups.

[col_impact]

You want your enemy to waste his biggest nova on the illusion before you pop out and Feeblemind + Forcecage him, or whatever you're planning on doing.

. . .

I foresee Invisibility / True Seeing / Shadow of Moil / etc. being pivotal in many of these matchups.

You make some excellent points. Since it's a duel, players are under pressure to deal lethal as quickly as possible which sets up an opportunity for decoys and tricking the other player into over commiting on the opening volley.

Illusionists seem well positioned until everyone starts packing True Seeing. How much is the Illusionist hosed by True Seeing?

[Blood of Gaea]

Hexblade's Curse only has 30' range, and Magic Missile (like Counterspell) only works on targets you can see within 120'.


I foresee Invisibility / True Seeing / Shadow of Moil / etc. being pivotal in many of these matchups.

Definitely! I do address that in my original post. Combining Mind Blank and Greater Invisibility would be ideal in my opinion.

It depends on the exact rules. If you give me the time I'm totally going to be starting as a Wizard with Wish for Similiacrum, Mind Blank, True Seeing, and Mirror Image.


I'd likely go with 18 Wizard/2 Fighter. The first round of combat would generally be Greater Invisibility followed by a potent non-concentration spell (probably Forcecage or Feeblemind), while my Similarum will stay visible and go for the strongest concentration spell that would be likely to lock you down.


Note it's next to impossible to see a someone under both Mind Blank and Greater Invisibility, as you can't use divination spells to see through the invisibility.


Don't forget Alert and Lucky for initiative.

You make some excellent points. Since it's a duel, players are under pressure to deal lethal as quickly as possible which sets up an opportunity for decoys.


Illusionists seem well positioned until everyone starts packing True Seeing. How much is the Illusionist hosed by True Seeing?

It depends on what you're trying to do with Illusions. If you want to trap them in an adamantium box, that works just as well as it normally does. If you're trying to obscure their vision or senses, it's not likely to work out, as everyone who has the time and the spell is likely running around with True Seeing active.


Illusionists can generally defeat any non-teleporting PC with startling ease though, if you try to bust out of the box/cage they trap you in, they'll just put you in another before you have a chance to attack them. Once an Illusionist traps you, your best bet is to teleport out or ready a spell to cast as soon as you can see them (they'll likely either peak through a hole, or have their Similacrum teleport into the box with you).

The problem, of course, is that basically anyone you're likely to be concerned with in a 20th level duel is going to be packing at least Dimension Door.

[MaxWilson]

Definitely! I do address that in my original post. Combining Mind Blank and Greater Invisibility would be ideal in my opinion.

Oh, so you did. Sorry, didn't notice.

BTW, I do not believe Mind Blank will counter True Seeing. You're "immune" to divination spells, but True Seeing targets your opponent, not you. Arguably Shadow of Moil might counter True Seeing, and Fog Cloud/Stinking Cloud/Sleet Storm/etc. definitely would, but they can be dispelled pretty easily so it would only buy you a round.

[Blood of Gaea]

Oh, so you did. Sorry, didn't notice.

BTW, I do not believe Mind Blank will counter True Seeing. You're "immune" to divination spells, but True Seeing targets your opponent, not you. Arguably Shadow of Moil might counter True Seeing, and Fog Cloud/Stinking Cloud/Sleet Storm/etc. definitely would, but they can be dispelled pretty easily so it would only buy you a round.

I've personally viewd it as not working due to being immune to divination spells, it doesn't call out you being untargatble, just immune to them outright. I suppose the ruling could vary though.

[Blood of Gaea]

A possible option purely because we know most or all of the opposition will be casters is a Shadow Monk. You can run around in your own darkenss, blinding any caster without True Seeing or Devil's Sight, and you can use your own Darkness spell as a point to teleport to. A two level Dip for Devil's Sight from Warlock might not be a bad idea here.

You have proficiency in every saving throw, which goes a long way to helping against casters, and if you get close enough to hit the enemy, you're probably going to be dumping four (or two, if they had to use Shadow Step) stunning strikes on them, which has a decent chance of being game, set, match right there.

Cloak of Shadows also means the Monk will be Invisible in their Darkness until their first attack, which mitigates Devil's Sight as well.

[col_impact]

Coffeelock is not AL legal. Simulacrum chaining is not AL legal. Simulacrum casting Wish is not AL legal.

So we will have none of that cheese in these duels.

[Blood of Gaea]

Coffeelock is not AL legal. Simulacrum chaining is not AL legal. Simulacrum casting Wish is not AL legal.

So we will have none of that cheese in these duels.

You're right, I went off into an offtopic tangent I really shouldn't have.

[col_impact]

You're right, I went off into an offtopic tangent I really shouldn't have.

No worries. It's great to have these topics brought up so they can be clarified as not allowed. And you helped show the reasons they are disallowed.

[AdAstra]

Is Wish itself banned or restricted, though? If not, there's still nothing preventing you from wishing for your opponent to cease to exist. Go Sorc for Subtle or get out of range and you're free from Counterspell, too. Maybe an Eladrin (for spell-free teleport) Diviner Wizard with Lucky and Alert, maybe one level in Fighter to grab a Sentinel Shield? That would nearly guarantee winning initiative.

[col_impact]

Is Wish itself banned or restricted, though? If not, there's still nothing preventing you from wishing for your opponent to cease to exist.

If you read the spell description, making a greedy wish like that almost always produces an unintended consequence such as transporting you in time to a time where the opponent doesn't exist. That means you blink out of the current time and your opponent wins the match in this timeline.

So to be clear, the basic use of Wish (as a wildcard replacement for 8th level or lower spells) is fully supported. Any greedy use is exceedingly likely to result in self harm.

[Nhym]

Class: Moon Druid 20

Feats: Heavily Armored

Seeing this hurts my soul.

[col_impact]

The GM decided that each duelist gets one legendary save. The legendary save can be applied to negate an enemy's portent.

In this duel comp I can see lots of viable builds.

Divination, illusionist, and nuclear wizards are solid picks.

Divine soul sorceror is also a solid pick.

Moon Druids and Monks have workable hit and run and attrition tactics at their disposal.

Minionmancy combined with evasion/deception also is very potent.

Initiative, alpha strikes, vision supremacy, evasion, attrition, deception are all tactical paths to victory.

Significantly, a quick and brutal alpha strike can be countered by something as simple as a minor illusion that blocks line of sight.

[djreynolds]

2 levels of warlock for repelling blast, they fact that there is no save on this is amazing

[MaxWilson]

2 levels of warlock for repelling blast, they fact that there is no save on this is amazing

No save, but you can still defend against it. For example, invisible enemies are completely immune because they can't be Eldritch Blasted at all. (Plain old high AC isn't a bad defense either.)

[col_impact]

Staff of Swarming Insects seems like a high value magic item that shuts down magic missile alpha strikes, portent attacks, and truesight.

[djreynolds]

No save, but you can still defend against it. For example, invisible enemies are completely immune because they can't be Eldritch Blasted at all. (Plain old high AC isn't a bad defense either.)

I just find repelling blast, especially if they all hit, could just keep you out of melee, it 40ft. Its eating up actions just to get into range. A brooch of shielding will help with damage and maybe some dwarven plate armor. But it is a really good spell/invocation.

IMO, it probably deserves a save vs strength or so many times a day. Repelling blast is very good

What you have going is very good idea, having invisibility would be a must versus a warlock

[Eldariel]

Significantly, a quick and brutal alpha strike can be countered by something as simple as a minor illusion that blocks line of sight.

Though that requires getting an action. Always, defenses requiring actions <<< defenses that do not.