How to prevent one of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories: PC Edition

[Lord of Shadows]

Talakeal, here's some thoughts that could pull everyone back together. Others have given some good ideas on how to confront the out-of-character issues. This would be more for DM/Brian to interrupt any in-character issues with a sudden new challenge to the PCs, especially those who want the ship as theirs.

DM/Brian could have an NPC appear who also "miraculously" survived the pirate attack (doesn't matter if it's true, they say that they are) and who wants to take over the ship :

• Perhaps said survivor was a member of the crew who stayed hidden on the ship.
• Perhaps said survivor was an officer - or the previous Captain - who had a special hiding place just for pirate attacks.
• A rumor has started in town that the PC's were not the only survivors of the pirate attack. Perhaps someone claiming to be a crew member says they snuck off the ship after it docked and while the PCs weren't looking (doesn't matter if it's true or not).
• Perhaps someone claims they washed ashore who also claims to be a crew member.

Perhaps some NPC or "local authority" in the port suddenly decides to lay claim to the ship as theirs:

• By citing some legal connection to it (relative of the Captain, relative of a crew member, merchant who had cargo on board that was taken, etc.)
• Employee of the merchant who owned the boat.
• The boat is now a crime scene ("Piracy on the High Seas" or something equally as official sounding) and the local authorities seize it as evidence of said crime. All occupants are taken in for questioning - partly as witnesses but also to determine if any survivors were conspirators in the crime. Bob's character, as the only "survivor" of the crew (using his cabin boy cover), is looked at especially hard.
• Perhaps someone claiming to be another survivor of the pirate attack points the finger at one of the PCs as being connected to the pirates and helped in some way (again, doesn't matter if it's true, some will believe it).
• Deceptive NPC - perhaps with forged documents - who just wants the boat for its salvage value. Cold be a "respected" member of the community that the locals believe over the PC's.

The Pirates return:

• Agents of the pirates are in the port town, and have been watching the PCs, looking for a chance to strike. Dead PC's tell no tales (of pirates they saw).
• A ship appears in the harbor that the PCs recognize as the Pirate ship. Mayhem ensues.
• A possible connection between the pirates and whatever happened to the Druid comes to the party as a rumor, or on something found on the Druid, or someone he told of his suspicions contacts the party directly.

DM/Brian could use any of these, feel free to suggest them, and point out that even if you have suggested something, only he knows how true it actually is. If DM/Brian seems reluctant or uninterested in any of these plot elements, your PC could report it to the party as a rumor heard in town of something about to occur. It might keep the other PCs distracted, wondering what may happen next. Use their fanatical craziness against them. Your character could then use that time to your advantage (gain allies, prepare responses, etc.)

Hope this helps...

[kyoryu]

Let's be clear: If a player creates a character that is a sociopath and a narcissist, they are doing so deliberately so that they can have the character engage and sociopathic and narcissistic behavior down the road and use that in their defense.

They are pre-MyGuying. It is done deliberately as an excuse to be a jerk. There is no other reason to do that.

[Arbane]

Next time the necromancer threatens you, grab the twerp and throw him overboard.
Get some help, and do the same thing to the ogre.

Or, you know, LEAVE. This game will not improve.

[Koo Rehtorb]

{Scrubbed}

[Talakeal]

Next time the necromancer threatens you, grab the twerp and throw him overboard.
Get some help, and do the same thing to the ogre.

That would be nice. The problem is I can't defeat the entire party, and as the pixie is the ogre's wife, there is no way they won't all gang up on me. The DM (and all of his NPCs) are apparently completely spineless when it comes to PvP, so help really won't be forthcoming.

Also, I kind of have a hang up about that. This goes back to one of my very first gaming horror stories, perhaps the first.

Back in high school, I was playing a rogue, and the party fighter was constantly bullying my character, both mentally and physically. It came to a head one day when my character (who was afraid of water) refused to swim a lake, and he decided to throw me in, where I was attacked by a lake monster and, being alone in the lake, nearly killed. I decided that my character had had enough, and coup de graced the fighter in his sleep that night.

The DM responded by having a level 20 cleric teleport in, true res the fighter, and cast imprisonment on my character. He then kicked me from the group. I found out that YEARS later the group was still meeting without me in secret, and only then it was because one of my other friends had been invited to their group, cancelled plans with me to game with them, and then told me a lie about it.

So I am really nervous about something similar happening again.

[zinycor]

That would be nice. The problem is I can't defeat the entire party, and as the pixie is the ogre's wife, there is no way they won't all gang up on me. The DM (and all of his NPCs) are apparently completely spineless when it comes to PvP, so help really won't be forthcoming.

Also, I kind of have a hang up about that. This goes back to one of my very first gaming horror stories, perhaps the first.

Back in high school, I was playing a rogue, and the party fighter was constantly bullying my character, both mentally and physically. It came to a head one day when my character (who was afraid of water) refused to swim a lake, and he decided to throw me in, where I was attacked by a lake monster and, being alone in the lake, nearly killed. I decided that my character had had enough, and coup de graced the fighter in his sleep that night.

The DM responded by having a level 20 cleric teleport in, true res the fighter, and cast imprisonment on my character. He then kicked me from the group. I found out that YEARS later the group was still meeting without me in secret, and only then it was because one of my other friends had been invited to their group, cancelled plans with me to game with them, and then told me a lie about it.

So I am really nervous about something similar happening again.

You are worried about what? About going back to highschool? Can you just leave and find a new group? if you have any friends in this group you can still meet them outside of gaming or invite them to a working table.

[Arbane]

To quote myself:

Or, you know, LEAVE. This game will not improve.

Have you considered finding another hobby? I have no idea why, but you seem to be a magnet for these Black Hand rejects.

But if you are determined to stick around, I just had a better* idea. Let one of them corner you, and hand off the captaincy when they threaten you. If they don't kill you after that, do the same with the OTHER one, too. Let THEM sort it out. (And when they complain, remind them that's metagaming.)

* For a value of 'better' that still thinks Paranoia was a great RPG.

[Satinavian]

If you don't want to kill the other PCs and don't want to leave the group for good (both appropriate options), here is another thing you can do :

Have your character abandon the group after realizing they would not get along. Then declare that you as a player will take a break of a couple of sessions and then make a new character with Brian who is a better fit after the party dynamics between necromancer, ogre and pixie are settled.


Let them play without you for a time so they can't offload all the work of plot-finding, morivation and making the party work to you. Force them to invest in the game on their own.

[Kane0]

I'm not going to say you should go full Henderson, but have you considered going full Henderson?

[The Glyphstone]

As we all predicted, the game is about to implode because the sociopathic narcissist whose character is also a sociopathic narcissist has the GM and other players bending into pretzels to indulge his attention seeking temper tantrums. But hey, maybe pigs will fly and Bob's heart will spontaneously grow three sizes that day.

[Talakeal]

Well, the DM is going to take Querus’ suggestion and tell them to make new characters who are both good and will get along with the party. We’ll see how it goes.

[Friv]

I told them that I have already remade my character twice for them, and I won't be doing it again.

So, it looks like, if someone doesn't have a brilliant plan, the next session is just going to devolve into a PvP scrum.

Because I am currently the Captain. Bob flat out said he is waiting for Dave and I to kill one another before he uses the opportunity to defeat the winner while they are wounded.

Okay, so, it sounds like the situation may be temporarily resolved, but honestly I think this was about to resolve itself. Just name Dave the captain, let him become the focus of Bob's wrath, and take the new players and leave and start your own group with them.

The DM responded by having a level 20 cleric teleport in, true res the fighter, and cast imprisonment on my character. He then kicked me from the group. I found out that YEARS later the group was still meeting without me in secret, and only then it was because one of my other friends had been invited to their group, cancelled plans with me to game with them, and then told me a lie about it.

So I am really nervous about something similar happening again.

Serious question: why?

Not playing with people like that is the best possible outcome to dealing with people like that. You're saying that you are nervous that you might lose the opportunity to be bullied by *******s. That is what you are afraid of. Not being abused.

That is kind of a worrying statement, friend.

[Quertus]

If you don't want to kill the other PCs and don't want to leave the group for good (both appropriate options), here is another thing you can do :

Have your character abandon the group after realizing they would not get along. Then declare that you as a player will take a break of a couple of sessions and then make a new character with Brian who is a better fit after the party dynamics between necromancer, ogre and pixie are settled.


Let them play without you for a time so they can't offload all the work of plot-finding, morivation and making the party work to you. Force them to invest in the game on their own.

This is also a good idea. I just expect that Talakeal will reject it out of fear that they might… hmmm… cancel the game entirely without him, or, once they get the game running better, that they might get it in their heads that Talakeal was the problem element (now, many old-timers might be elated at the notion of Talakeal no longer being in that toxic environment, even if it came from being forcibly ejected from the group, but that doesn't change the fact that Talakeal might consider it a reason to reject the plan).

Well, the DM is going to take Querus’ suggestion and tell them to make new characters who are both good and will get along with the party. We’ll see how it goes.

You know, in a normal group, I'd say that alignment has nothing to do with it; however, in your group, they may not comprehend that "evil" and "delusional sociopath" aren't synonyms. So, just this once, I'll agree with your GM's "good" prerequisite.

That said, you've got a "CR beyond your ECL" social challenge still to deal with: namely, you need to figure out how much of the resentment was from their characters vs from the players, and how much of that resentment was directed at your character vs at you. What are your plans in this regard?

[The Glyphstone]

I suspect Bob's "good" character will have an irrational hatred of your character from the gate, however he chooses to justify it. Possibly even tailor-made to PvP your character. So be prepared for that as well.

[jdizzlean]

I'm not going to say you should go full Henderson, but have you considered going full Henderson?

in the case where a full henderson, or 2 full henderson's might be appropriate, you are required by law to document it, and share it for all to read after the fact.

[Pelle]

I suspect Bob's "good" character will have an irrational hatred of your character from the gate, however he chooses to justify it. Possibly even tailor-made to PvP your character. So be prepared for that as well.

It looks like Bob has a problem with accepting the premise of a game where his character has goals and work towards those by overcoming real challenges. I agree, playing a "good" character is not likely to fix the situation of the table dynamic, but at least playing evil characters seems like a blanket justification for poor behaviour to him.

[zinycor]

Am starting to suspect Bob to be a teenager, I can't understand this behaviour from adults who have some degree of practice with roleplaying games.

[Arbane]

Am starting to suspect Bob to be a teenager, I can't understand this behaviour from adults who have some degree of practice with roleplaying games.

There are an appalling number of bad adults in the hobby.

[GrayDeath]

Indeed.

And Bob seems to be a professional Game Tester.

Ugh.

[zinycor]

There are an appalling number of bad adults in the hobby.

I guess that's a possibility...
Anyway, Talakeal, find a new group. Role-playing games more popular than ever before and there are plenty of people looking for groups.

[Talakeal]

So, we played again.

The game started with a lot of passive aggressive crap that ended up with everyone pissed at me and me pissed at everyone.

Dave gave a new variant of the “only playing my character” speech. He basically said that the party tension was what was fun for him, and he considers the bickering in town for two hours trying to get him to come on the mission to be the “real game” and the adventure to just be boring hack and slash, and that he has new interest OOC in playing a game where everyone just mechanically kills monsters as an efficient team as he has MMOs for that sort of hack and slash game.

In the end, Bob and I decided that our character differences are irreconcilable and we were going to play this session pretending we can work together so the DMs work isn’t wasted, but we will both drastically rework our characters before the next game so they are less at odds and have a shared backstory.


Adventure summary:
We are looking for work as mercenaries or treasure hunters in town while waiting for our boat to be repaired. No real work, but we are led to a spooky abandoned temple in the bayou outside of town which supposedly contains a cursed treasure.

We scout it out, and we see a congregation of ghouls (ghouls in my setting are not true undead, they are Lovecraftian degenerate humans) Sacrificing goats to a mass of tentacles in a bit.

We try and talk our way in, but they are not interested in conversation, and tell us that unless we are interested in providing a sacrifice or attempting to solve the riddle of clockwork, we are of no use to them. When we get tough, they mob us.

The necromancer conjures a wall of wall of ice to keep us from getting surrounded. The ogre gets mobbed. I slowly cut through the ghouls, It is slow going but they need a natural 20 to hit me, so my victory is inevitable.

The deacon turns out to be a mind flayer in disguise, and also an illusionist. Exactly what I have been afraid of happening happens, as he can see invisibility and is able to take down our pixie without much trouble, though the DM has mercy and has him knock her out then retreat rather than finishing her off or carrying her away.

I finish off the ghouls, and we get the ogre and fairy back on their feat. We follow the illithid through some tunnels, and at one point it drops an illusionary wall, allowing us to be ambushed by a pack of ghasts (these are legit undead). Our necromancer is able to charm them, but not before out party is infected with their disease.

We finally corner the illithid, who is surrounded by his elite guard. He drops a stinking cloud on us and retreats again. His elite guard kill most of the ghasts before we kill them and raise their bodies as zombies.

We search the rest of the temple, but find no sign of the illithid. We distract the tentacles with ghoul bodies to get past. In one room we find a strange clockwork sphere, presumably the riddle of clockwork, and loot it.

We also find a Scrag, who has been tortured and has had its limbs surgically amputated. It believes us to be a deception on the part of the illithid, and tells us that he will not give up his great secret. The rest of the group decides he isn't worth saving, and we put him out of his misery and collect his skull.

We learn that the tentacles belonged to a juvenile kraken that was the illithid’s master, and that they have both fled out to see through underground caverns. We loot the place for holy relics and get a decent bit of gold.


So, the actual game was pretty fun, the party dynamics not so much. I am really optimistic about Bob and I reworking our characters, but I know it is foolish to get my hopes up.

[GrayDeath]

Wait wait wait....BOB and you agreed on something positive?

That must be Mirror Bizarro World now!

[zinycor]

Dave gave a new variant of the “only playing my character” speech. He basically said that the party tension was what was fun for him, and he considers the bickering in town for two hours trying to get him to come on the mission to be the “real game” and the adventure to just be boring hack and slash, and that he has new interest OOC in playing a game where everyone just mechanically kills monsters as an efficient team as he has MMOs for that sort of hack and slash game.

This actually a great advancement, congratulations on getting Dave to declare his intentions.

Now, these are perfectly reasonable wants as long as the others are on board with them. Games with tons of tension between players can be very fun, as long as everyone is into that idea. See if you can meet those wishes, if a game full of inter party conflict is something that interests you. If not, then find out the others perspectives, maybe they agree with Dave, in which case you leave, or they agree with you, in which case Dave has to leave.

Personally, I wouldn't play such a game with Bob, as I feel that sort of game requires trust and friendship that your group lacks.

[Quertus]

Sounds like you had an amazingly productive session. No, seriously - you actually have actionable information regarding the other players' playstyle preferences.

Now, the question is, what will you do with that information?

So, you've got Bob, and Dave. And, well, you. Let's start with you.

Why do we need to discuss you? Well, you may know (or think you know) your preferences, but you should practice articulating them. Go ahead - tell us what you like in a game.

Second is, last session made you angry. You should also go through and tell us what exactly made you upset. Get it out of your system. Because, IMO, you should enter the next session with a good attitude. Heck, not just next session, but the rebuild phase, too.

Which brings us to Bob.

So, Bob realized that your character differences are irreconcilable, and wants to work with you for y'all to rebuild both characters to work together? That's… just about the most awesome outcome possible!

Yet you responded with pessimism.

OK, why is that? Remind my senile brain why you think you and Bob have no hope of making your charters work together.

Then there's Dave.

Dave thinks that RPG combat is suboptimal. He's not wrong. Although, from your description, he comes off as childish rather than insightful. Where the truth lies will determine the optimal path forward here.

Dave enjoyed the party having to drag him kicking and screaming on the adventure. OK, that's a start. And I get that - I grew up on The Hobbit, after all. Quertus (my signature academia mage for whom this account is named) is an academic, not an adventurer - but "my friends asked me to" or "it's important" are examples of sufficient motivations for him. Now, we just need to get Dave to define the larger class of objects that he enjoys, and parse it for things that make for a more optimal experience for the rest of you.

Maybe he enjoyed being the center of attention. Maybe he enjoyed talking to the PCs, in character. Maybe he enjoyed being a detriment to the party. Maybe he enjoyed the social bit (ie, talking to NPCs would fulfill his desires, too, not just talking to the PCs). Maybe he enjoyed feeling like there was a personality to the characters beyond stats on a sheet, or beyond the players at the table.

If you can get him to define what he likes, everyone can work together to design a fun game, for everyone. One that isn't just combat, but (hopefully?) doesn't involve having to spend hours convincing Dave's character every session.

[Duff]

Ask Brian. I'll suggest the counterpart to a "swear jar", that you drop a quarter into every time you do it; when it's full, you buy the group pizza.

Do I put a quarter in every time I answer a question at all or just every time I give a different answer than Brian?.

You put a coin in every time you answer a GM type question before Brian has the chance to think and then answer, He's new to the screen, so allow plenty of thinking time

[kyoryu]

You put a coin in every time you answer a GM type question before Brian has the chance to think and then answer, He's new to the screen, so allow plenty of thinking time

Yeah. The issue isn't answering questions when asked. That's being a contributing member of the party.

Let him figure it out, accept his answers, and give advice when asked.

[Talakeal]

Boy, I had a really long response that answered a bunch of individual points, but the forum went down at some point between the time I started typing it and hit submit, and at this point so much has changed in the game I don't think it was really relevant anymore.

So basically, we had one session where I got tired of trying to please everyone and just played for myself, which resulted in everyone passive aggressively sabotaging everyone else, the group TPKing due to lack of cooperation, and then the group breaking down into an OOC screaming match. When everyone calmed down, we decided to retcon the session and have everyone remake their characters to work better as a group. We played two sessions with the reworked characters, and it seems to be going ok. Then the quarantine happened and the game has been postponed indefinitely.

Two things about Bob though:

1: He still constantly bitches about how the game is too hard for him, and he really thinks that every single encounter is a hair's breadth away from a TPK and he only barely managed to salvage it through incredible luck and player skill.

2: He still values character wealth far more than either experience or story-line goals, to the point where his refusal to contribute to party expenses is seriously hurting our chances of success or our enjoyment of the game.

Yeah. The issue isn't answering questions when asked. That's being a contributing member of the party.

Let him figure it out, accept his answers, and give advice when asked.

That works, although I still feel like its a damned if you do / damned if you don't situation about whether or not to keep my mouth shut when he answers a question wrong.

More common though, is when someone just asks a question of the table as a whole rather than directing it at any one person, and then multiple people give conflicting answers.

[kyoryu]

That works, although I still feel like its a damned if you do / damned if you don't situation about whether or not to keep my mouth shut when he answers a question wrong.

Say nothing during the game. If you feel like it's important, bring it up after the game.

More common though, is when someone just asks a question of the table as a whole rather than directing it at any one person, and then multiple people give conflicting answers.

Honestly, say nothing unless asked. If the answer is wrong, bring it up after the game. Your goal is to make sure you are supporting the GM.

[zinycor]

Why don't you join an online game?, I have joined a few, even my irl group moved to discord since the corona virus attacked.

Anyway the benefit is that the initial compromise is super low, you can leave whenever you wish and no hard feeling.

In fact, you could create one right now, and many people here will probably join you, even out of curiosity.

[Quertus]

So basically, we had one session where I got tired of trying to please everyone and just played for myself, which resulted in everyone passive aggressively sabotaging everyone else, the group TPKing due to lack of cooperation, and then the group breaking down into an OOC screaming match. When everyone calmed down, we decided to retcon the session and have everyone remake their characters to work better as a group. We played two sessions with the reworked characters, and it seems to be going ok. Then the quarantine happened and the game has been postponed indefinitely.

Two things about Bob though:

1: He still constantly bitches about how the game is too hard for him, and he really thinks that every single encounter is a hair's breadth away from a TPK and he only barely managed to salvage it through incredible luck and player skill.

2: He still values character wealth far more than either experience or story-line goals, to the point where his refusal to contribute to party expenses is seriously hurting our chances of success or our enjoyment of the game.

That works, although I still feel like its a damned if you do / damned if you don't situation about whether or not to keep my mouth shut when he answers a question wrong.

More common though, is when someone just asks a question of the table as a whole rather than directing it at any one person, and then multiple people give conflicting answers.

Curious about the reworked characters - what were they, and what do you think made them work?

Is Bob right on #1? You made the game - cab you rework it for #2? Remove all 1-shot items, and all need for one-shot items from the game? Still, if Bob won't pony up for party expenses, that points to Bob being a ****. But, to prove which is which, you need to make "party expenses" into permanent items: faster horses, banners of +x to fame, beds of expeditious rest, reusable coffin/shroud of Restoration or Resurrection, whatever, rather than his pet peeve of expendables.

GMs answer questions wrong all the time. IMO, at the best tables, if someone asks, "how do the grapple rules work?", and the GM misquotes the books, the GM is wrong, and, if a player knows better, or looks up the rules, they'll tell him so.

It is, of course, the GM's purgative(?) to make house rules; however, those should be stated up front, before session 1 starts.

You, however, are in the position of having written the rules, and having just run a game. This adds all kinds of complications and wrinkles, of the type you have demonstrated in the past both a lack of interest and skill in addressing. So… best bet is to tell the GM that you'd like to hear his opinion on the issue. And just listen to it. (Maybe get him to help you rewrite the rules, to prevent "sour grapes" rules).